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Post by faune on Nov 14, 2014 21:16:31 GMT -5
Yes. Then when they did get him out, how could they explain to people why the movement was THE TRUTH & the only WAY but they had to excommunicate the founder!
It was a sticky situation.
It really must have been a challenge. I wish people had seen through it all and it had failed. Then my parents wouldn't have wasted their lives in it. I can't understand what my grandfather saw in them (the workers). Possibly because they rolled up their sleeves and worked the ranch with him and his sons? They became friends and he just decided to fall in with their religious ideas too? Who knows. I know for my maternal grandmother it was a hard time in her life when the workers hit town. She and my mother were the only two in that family that ever professed. In my dad's family it was my grandfather, step grandmother, my dad and an aunt. So not many in either family fell for it. I just happened to be in the family of the two that did profess. Snow ~ No doubt William Irvine was exposed to Charles T. Russell's teachings before 1914, because of his Omega Doctrine and its claims? By the late 1800's, the JW's and their literature was being distributed globally by Russell, so that wouldn't surprise me if Irvine didn't adopt some of his teachings in his "own experiment" involving the 2x2's? Both men claimed the "age of grace" would end and the tribulation period would begin. Irvine predicted August 1914 and Russell claimed October 1914. Also, both groups go out 2x2's, have no church buildings, and call themselves the "Truth" among their members. (Jehovah Witnesses (JW's) originally met in homes before they adopted the Kingdom Halls as their meeting places.) In addition, William Irvine and Charles T. Russell were members of the Free Masons along with Joseph Smith of the Mormons (LDS). You can find many similarities between the teachings of these men and the Free Masons in my link found below.
However, I cannot help but think some of his delusional thinking might also be related to his time spent among the Pentecostals in Los Angeles (Azusa Street Revival) during the war years? He also claimed to have received the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues as a result of this later association, per the cited Wiki article below, with information gained from John Long's Journal entries (1918-1921). This took place sometime before he returned to his hometown of Kilsyth, Scotland in September 1919 and followed with his trip to Palestine (Jerusalem) in November 1919. That would put the date somewhere between 1915 and September 1919; however, he especially mentions visions of his around the end of the war in November 1918, which makes me wonder if this wasn't around the same time he received his spiritual gifts mentioned above?
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/06wmibook.php#azusa
www.votisalive.com/content/what-do-william-irvine-joseph-smith-charles-russell-have-common-0 What Do William Irvine, Joseph Smith, and Charles Russell Have In Common?
thewaythetruthandthelife.net/index/3_observe/3-2/3-2-34_care/3-2-34-16_1947_william-irvine.htm
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Post by faune on Nov 14, 2014 21:44:59 GMT -5
I wonder where the author got the information that he spent time with Pentecostals and received the gift of tongues etc? Pentecostals do not say they are going to die and rise up again after 2 days etc. So to say he got that from the Pentecostals is wrong. Irvine was deluded from when he first started going out on his own. He writes: Irvine was in America for much of the war years, and while spending time with Pentecostal people in Los Angeles he received the gift of tongues and of interpreting tongues. He returned to his own folk of Kilsyth around September 1919, and travelled to Palestine in November that year. Mary ~ I just found that article on Cherie's TTT site, which backs up the Wiki reference I gave previously. I also updated my earlier post to reflect this link, too. Just scroll down to the part where it speaks about the early Pentecostal Movement and how William Irvine was present during its formation and how it was described in the newspapers at this time.
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/06wmibook.php#azusa
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 14, 2014 21:46:17 GMT -5
Where is any documentation that Irvine "while spending time with Pentecostal people in Los Angeles he received the gift of tongues and of interpreting tongues." I don't know of any myself and I've read all Irvine's letters 3+ times. I have found no indication that Irvine believed he had the gift of tongues. Chapter 6 of my WmI book contains all I have found about Wm's connection to the Azusa Street Revival in LA when Pentecostalism was born. On the other hand, John Long stated openly in his journal that he believed in the gift of tongues. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/longjohn-gifts.phpJohn wrote: I myself have been rejected fellowship at the Lord's table, because I believed in the gift of tongues, which is a Scriptural gift; Read John's views about Pentecostalism and tongues
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Post by fixit on Nov 14, 2014 21:48:29 GMT -5
Also, both groups go out 2x2's, have no church building, and call themselves the "Truth" among their members. The JWs started out meeting in homes but over time changed to "Kingdom Halls" which are church buildings.
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Post by faune on Nov 14, 2014 22:06:46 GMT -5
Where is any documentation that Irvine "while spending time with Pentecostal people in Los Angeles he received the gift of tongues and of interpreting tongues." I don't know of any myself and I've read all Irvine's letters 3+ times. I have found no indication that Irvine believed he had the gift of tongues. Chapter 6 of my WmI book contains all I have found about Wm's connection to the Azusa Street Revival in LA when Pentecostalism was born. On the other hand, John Long stated openly in his journal that he believed in the gift of tongues. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/longjohn-gifts.phpJohn wrote: I myself have been rejected fellowship at the Lord's table, because I believed in the gift of tongues, which is a Scriptural gift; Read John's views about Pentecostalism and tonguesCherie ~ Thanks for providing that information. I was just going to add myself that Wiki excerpt below provided a back-up reference to John Long's Journals (1918-1921) regarding this speaking in tongues. Please see my note below relating to Wiki's source material, which they claimed to have taken from your TTT section entitled,"The Journal of John Long III, 1918 thru 1921" Telling The Truth. (Archived from the original on 9 February 2012. Retrieved 9 February 2012.)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Irvine_(Scottish_evangelist)
Reference #33 ~ Long, 1918-1921
Here's the references to the Pentecostal Revival that broke out in Kilsyth, Scotland in 1908, William Irvine's hometown, which followed the Azusa Street Revival in April 1906 in Los Angeles, CA, also recorded in John Long's Journal. The second excerpt recalls William Irvine receiving this gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues, found under the September 1919 reference. During the same month Irvine also returns to his hometown of Kilsyth, Scotland, as also recorded in John Long's Journal at your site below.
www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/longjohn-gifts.php
Westport HALL, KILSYTH, SCOTLAND
ELIM EVANGELICAL ALLIANCE...
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Post by Mary on Nov 14, 2014 22:42:41 GMT -5
Thanks for that faune. I only saw your second link to where the author says that William received the gift of tongues. The TTT article does not say that. In fact it says that Irvine was more against the Pentecostal gifts but then his followers claims in TTT to attribute part of the movement to Irvine. Mind you he made claims that were not true. But nothing about him receiving the gift of tongues like this article says.
thewaythetruthandthelife.net/index/3_observe/3-2/3-2-34_care/3-2-34-16_1947_william-irvine.htm
P.S. I just read Cherie's post about the same thing after I had posted this.
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Post by faune on Nov 14, 2014 23:03:43 GMT -5
Thanks for that faune. I only saw your second link to where the author says that William received the gift of tongues. The TTT article does not say that. In fact it says that Irvine was more against the Pentecostal gifts but then his followers claims in TTT to attribute part of the movement to Irvine. Mind you he made claims that were not true. But nothing about him receiving the gift of tongues like this article says. thewaythetruthandthelife.net/index/3_observe/3-2/3-2-34_care/3-2-34-16_1947_william-irvine.htm P.S. I just read Cherie's post about the same thing after I had posted this. Mary ~ I made sure to provide my references and the excerpts from the Journal of John Long III, 1918-1921, since I also found it rather contradictory to Irvine's earlier years of preaching around Azusa Street and the Pentecostal Movement, which broke out in April 1906.
However, this Pentecostal experience occurred sometime within William Irvine's life in Los Angeles (date not given) when he spent some time again among these Pentecostal folks from 1915 to the end of the war. This apparently happened sometime between his ouster from the 2x2's by 1915 and September 1919, when he returned again to his hometown in Kilsyth, Scotland, according to John Long's Journal entries (1918-1921). Two months after returning home, Irvine leaves for Jerusalem in November 1919. Ironically, his hometown also had its own Pentecostal Revival break out in February 1908, almost two years after the one on Azusa Street, Los Angeles, CA in April 1906.
All the information which I posted with excerpts previously came from Cherie's TTT site at this link below:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival
www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/longjohn-gifts.php
This section speaks of John Long's own experience around the Pentecostal Movement at Westport Hall in Kilsyth, Scotland below:
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Post by faune on Nov 15, 2014 0:34:30 GMT -5
Also, both groups go out 2x2's, have no church building, and call themselves the "Truth" among their members. The JWs started out meeting in homes but over time changed to "Kingdom Halls" which are church buildings. Fixit ~ That's just another thing that JW's and 2x2's have in common among other features. Apparently, the connection of their leaders to the Free Masons, also brought with it some of the same ideas embraced by this organization? The same characteristics can also be observed with the Mormons (LDS), whose leader, Joseph Smith, was also a Free Mason.
www.votisalive.com/content/what-do-william-irvine-joseph-smith-charles-russell-have-common-0
What Do William Irvine, Joseph Smith, and Charles Russell Have In Common?
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Post by faune on Nov 15, 2014 0:42:57 GMT -5
It was in November of 1918, when Wm. Irvine began to understand the Book of Revelation in a different light. He wrote:"Revelation only began to open up in 1918 when the War finished." (November 26, 1945 Letter to Madeline Dunbar)
"In 1918, I began to see some of what was in Revelation and which has slowly opened as the years passed and fulfillment confirms the reading of Revelation." (June 18, 1945 Letter to Skerritts)
"I did not know we were in the days of Judgment till 4 months ago. The Lord opened up Revelation to me. It’s a Program for the End of the Age—covers 12 years, from the beginning of the war." (March 31, 1919 Letter to Edwards)
“…which helps to bring me back to the weeks before Armistice, when He opened Revelation to me" (February 26, 1929 Letter to Edwards) Armistice Day was November 11, 1918.
“It was all new and strange to me to find these things open up to my understanding, and ability to read what has long been hidden till the time of the end, and not till the end of the last war did I get any vision or understanding of Revelation and the whole truth for the Latter Days, tho I had looked for and listened to every man who had anything to say on the matter. ” (November 1, 1929 Letter to Wm. Potts) “Revelation only began to open up in 1918 when the War finished, and since then is very easy and simple so that any ordinary person can give it to any whom they meet, good or bad. All can hear it even if they are not willing to obey by giving it to others.” (November 26, 1945 Letter to Dunbars) Cherie ~ Perhaps it was around Armistice Day in November 1918 when William Irvine received his "gift of tongues with the interpretation of tongues," due to all the new revelations he was receiving around this time? Just a wild guess on my part?
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Post by Mary on Nov 15, 2014 1:25:44 GMT -5
I still don't see where it says Irvine spoke in tongues. Just I see he saw it and believed it was of God. Nathan those situations in Acts was when the Spirit fell on large groups of people and they all began speaking in tongues. It was different from where one person spoke in tongues in a quiet church setting such as a Sunday morning meeting or church service.
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Post by faune on Nov 15, 2014 1:33:46 GMT -5
I still don't see where it says Irvine spoke in tongues. Just I see he saw it and believed it was of God. Nathan those situations in Acts was when the Spirit fell on large groups of people and they all began speaking in tongues. It was different from where one person spoke in tongues in a quiet church setting such as a Sunday morning meeting or church service. Mary ~ You can find it referenced that Irvine received the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues at this section within the link I provided earlier to Cherie's TTT site discussing John Long's Journal entries, 1918 - 1921. However, I believe this is the only place you will find this gift of tongues mentioned, since Irvine doesn't bring it up in his other letters on her site, as Cherie also noted. I was very surprised to find it myself in that Wiki article and followed the trail down through their references (#33) given at the end of that Wiki article on William Irvine, the Scottish Evangelist. It led to John Long's Journal entries of 1918 -1921, found on Cherie's TTT site. From some letters that Cherie shared earlier dealing with after the war, I believe this experience may have occurred sometime around November 1918, according to Irvine's new spiritual visions? However, that's just a "wild guess" on my part ~ since no date was ever really given for when this occurred in Los Angeles. Obviously, this "window" of spiritual gifting happened sometime between 1915 and September 1919, when he returns to his hometown in Kilsyth, Scotland. Two months later in November 1919, he goes to live in Jerusalem in Palestine upon the advice of Jack Carroll, James Jardine, and George Walker (see 2x2 Timetable entry below).
www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/longjohn-gifts.php
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Post by faune on Nov 15, 2014 2:38:33 GMT -5
The JWs started out meeting in homes but over time changed to "Kingdom Halls" which are church buildings. Fixit ~ That's just another thing that JW's and 2x2's have in common among other features. Apparently, the connection of their leaders to the Free Masons, also brought with it some of the same basic ideas embraced by this secretive organization? These same characteristics can also be observed with the Mormons (LDS), whose leader, Joseph Smith, was also a Free Mason.
www.votisalive.com/content/what-do-william-irvine-joseph-smith-charles-russell-have-common-0
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Post by faune on Nov 15, 2014 11:01:22 GMT -5
So, William Irvine spoke in tongues and the gift interpreting of tongues in 1918 AFTER he left the 2x2 ministry in 1914. If a person received the gift of tongues/languages then why the need of interpreting the message? When the believers spoke in tongues Acts chapter 2, 10 and 19 there was NO need of interpreters.
The tongues the Pentecostal speak today! mostly Gibberish.. ONLY add confusion in the 2x2 Sunday worship services, where all believers speak/share in the meetings.
Cherie Kropp wrote: On the other hand, John Long stated openly in his journal that he believed in the gift of tongues. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/longjohn-gifts.php
John wrote: I myself have been rejected fellowship at the Lord's table, because I believed in the gift of tongues, which is a Scriptural gift; Read John's views about Pentecostalism and tongues
Nathan ~ The noted entries from John Long's Journal, 1918-1921, didn't give us an exact date when this spiritual gifting actually occurred ~ they only provided a "window of opportunity" between 1915 and September 1919, when he later returns to his hometown in Kilsyth, Scotland. I made a "wild guess" that it might have been around November 1918, the end of the war, because of his professed new revelations he claimed to have received around then? However, that was only a guess on my part.
Also, Irvine doesn't mention this experience in any of his letters that Cherie has posted on her TTT site in Chapter 6, which relates to this time period in his life. In fact, his early letters relating to the Azusa Street Revival were in condemnation of this practice in its beginning around April 1906. Also, he had some choice words for new and upcoming female Pentecostal evangelist in Los Angeles, Aimee Semple McPherson, calling her "Queen Jezebel" in some of his letters for helping to promote this new Pentecostal experience in the early 20th century. Perhaps he was jealous of her charismatic ability to attract a crowd, too, since Irvine didn't appreciate competition as a leader and had a habit of downgrading other popular evangelists during his time? Just check out Chapter 6 in Cherie's book for these tidbits that Irvine shared regarding "Sister Aimee" as his competition. One thing for sure, William Irvine didn't like being "upstaged" by a woman preacher during this time!
So, it does appear a bit ironic that he returns later to Los Angeles, after his ouster from the 2x2's in 1915, and receives the gift of tongues himself perhaps around 12 years later? Perhaps he wanted to impress the people on Azusa Street in Los Angeles with his new revelations and this was his only way of convincing them to take him serious?
However, I agree with you about what they call tongues today appears as mostly gibberish and nothing like the tongues in Acts 2, where people understood in their own languages. I believe Pentecostals call this "gibberish" you speak of as being their "personal prayer language," which differs from the earlier tongues demonstrated in Acts 2. The account of the biblical outpouring of the Spirit in the book of Acts enabled many foreigners, who were visiting Jerusalem during the Passover Feast, to understand God's special message of salvation in their own language and be converted to Christianity.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimee_Semple_McPherson
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/06wmibook.php#azusa
Cherie shared earlier...
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 15, 2014 13:50:16 GMT -5
John Long's Journal for 1919 September: Having heard that my former friend William Irvine; who caused some to leave the Go Preacher fellowship, had to leave himself about 1915: and going to America he remained in the United States till the war was over; and during that time while among the Pentecostal people in Los Angeles, had got their experience of the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues: I purposed to cross to Scotland and see him on his return to his own folk in Kilsyth. Although we did differ in valid points in July 1905; and still differ on some minor points, yet I was pleased to see him: and he was kindly disposed to me, he holds much truth that’s Scriptural and true and profitable yet there was a measure I could not accept.
John Long went to visit Irvine and he tells why--bcs he heard he had heard was actually the case; i.e. that WmI "had got their experience of the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues."
John Long doesn't confirm that what he heard was actually the case with Wm Irvine.
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Post by christiansburg on Nov 15, 2014 14:26:49 GMT -5
Nate All of the above took place AFTER he was demoted in 1914, when the sexual sin scandal was discovered by Ed Cooney while he was with WmI in New Zealand. It has been interesting following this dialogue between you and Nathan about WI's moral misbehavior. It was mentioned here that Eddie C. discovered this when they were in New Zealand. Are there any written notes by Cooney on this. I have always heard that WI's loss of confidence by other workers was a combination of the two things. (the doctrine and behavior) It seems the suggestion here is that the primary reason for putting him out was his moral behavior. ??
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 15, 2014 14:36:15 GMT -5
Nate All of the above took place AFTER he was demoted in 1914, when the sexual sin scandal was discovered by Ed Cooney while he was with WmI in New Zealand. It has been interesting following this dialogue between you and Nathan about WI's moral misbehavior. It was mentioned here that Eddie C. discovered this when they were in New Zealand. Are there any written notes by Cooney on this. I have always heard that WI's loss of confidence by other workers was a combination of the two things. (the doctrine and behavior) It seems the suggestion here is that the primary reason for putting him out was his moral behavior. ?? Quote from Ed Cooney's Testimony: "There was in the days gone by, a certain man called William Irvine, upon whose heart Gods spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the truth as it is in Jesus. In fact he bore some resemblance to Samson. He was a strong man and warred with Spiritual Philistines effectually ‘till Delilah so influenced him that he put her before God. He has died recently in Jerusalem. Let us hope that in his declining days, like Solomon, he discovered that to fear God and keep his commandments is the whole duty of man. "Some years ago he wrote the writer to come and work with him in Jerusalem. The reply the writer gave was that when his hair grew again, as it was when first he met him, he would be glad to work with him, but not ‘till then. The long hair of Samson seems to speak of revelation from God direct; not clipped, to suit his flesh, or the flesh of others. When Delilah clipped his hair to suit her flesh and the flesh of the Philistines who feared Samson, knowing that God was with him, Samson, altho’ he shook himself not knowing that God had left him, found that Jehovah had departed from him, and that he was weak like any other man. ‘Tis so with all Gods servants who depart from revelation from God direct, and confer with flesh and blood. "In the year 1914 when we became aware of William's defeat, the writer was moved to go to see him personally and try and help him who had been such a help to him and others and now needed help himself. This desire he had was discouraged by his fellow workers but as he got to see he should obey God, and not man, he went to Scotland to see the man of God who had lost the power he once had. The writer is glad ever since that he did this, and believes he was of some help to his erring brother. "At this time the writer got to see that he should return to God as Jeremiah was exhorted by God to return to him; see Jer. 15 & 19, so that he might again stand before God and in the light of his countenance separate between the precious and the vile; from what he had learned thro’ William, from God, and what he had accepted from him which was not from God... Read more: www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/05wmibook.php#CooneysTestimony Read comments of others about Irvine's sin and the scandal in my WmI book - Chapter 11including the alleged name of the woman. Does anyone know anything about her?
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Post by faune on Nov 15, 2014 16:26:37 GMT -5
John Long's Journal for 1919 September: Having heard that my former friend William Irvine; who caused some to leave the Go Preacher fellowship, had to leave himself about 1915: and going to America he remained in the United States till the war was over; and during that time while among the Pentecostal people in Los Angeles, had got their experience of the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues: I purposed to cross to Scotland and see him on his return to his own folk in Kilsyth. Although we did differ in valid points in July 1905; and still differ on some minor points, yet I was pleased to see him: and he was kindly disposed to me, he holds much truth that’s Scriptural and true and profitable yet there was a measure I could not accept.John Long went to visit Irvine and he tells why--bcs he heard he had heard was actually the case; i.e. that WmI "had got their experience of the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues."
John Long doesn't confirm that what he heard was actually the case with Wm Irvine. Cherie ~ Do you think the "Grapevine" among the F&W's were spreading false rumors about Irvine relating to his receiving the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues, since he had been excommunicated from the fellowship? However, John Long was also excommunicated in 1907 over his disagreement with Irvine's Living Witness Doctrine, which he might have been referencing above? I personally would think if there was any truth to this rumor, Irvine would have at least confirmed it in some of his letters afterwards or at least spoke about it to someone? The fact that even John Long doesn't bring the topic up again in his Journal, makes me wonder if the rumor turned out to be false after all?
I also found it interesting that John Long later endorsed the gift of tongues and also included his thoughts about it within his writings. However, Irvine never made any similar comments within his letters to friends, which seems a bit uncanny, especially if it was something he was proud of experiencing, considering Irvine was quite the braggart?
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Post by Admin on Nov 15, 2014 17:11:41 GMT -5
Read comments of others about Irvine's sin and the scandal in my WmI book - Chapter 11including the alleged name of the woman. Does anyone know anything about her? Cherie, in Ch.11 you quote: THE SCANDAL: Reportedly, Wm. Irvine was accused of immorality when "one of the sister preachers exposed his sex corruption..." Can you tell us the name of the sister preacher who exposed Irvine's sex corruption? Did her name reappear on the 1914 NZ Workers List? Also can you record here the name of the alleged woman involved? (it's well hidden in your chapter!) Perhaps someone here will then come forward with some facts that help confirm or otherwise. Is it little wonder reading this sorry saga, one that all the Workers would have been caught up in, that today a culture of sexual looseness continues amongst certain brother and sister preachers? It is well known and spoken amongst Friends, but tolerated nevertheless. It completely removes any power from their ministry. admin
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 15, 2014 20:09:44 GMT -5
admin: Willie Hughes Overseer of NZ at that time giving a report dated Feb 12, 1913 about location of NZ sister workers. I only found this letter on my travels to UK this past April. I tracked most of the sister workers who came over from the Old Country (UK) to Australia for 1913. In 1914, some sister workers returned and others stayed in Aust. These two didnt return to the work: Mary McLeod and Susan Hooper. Susan's sister Harriett returned however. This doesnt mean one of them is "the one"--it must means that I havent found anything further about either of them--other than what is in Willie Hughes Letter. I am not good at searching NZ records. Chapter 11: "Rupert McHenry wrote "...his manner of life backfired on him when he made a pass at Isabel Norris." (Letter to Geo. Walker dated 11/10/80) Ms. Norris is listed on the 1922 and 1926 Workers List in the USA, as being in Kentucky, Ohio and West Virginia. I dont consider Rupert to be a reliable source. LINK to 1913 NZ Workers List: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_lists/nz1905-21.php#1913See Willie Hughes letter below
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 15, 2014 20:10:55 GMT -5
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Post by Admin on Nov 15, 2014 20:32:04 GMT -5
admin: Willie Hughes Overseer of NZ at that time giving a report dated Feb 12, 1913 about location of NZ sister workers. I only found this letter on my travels to UK this past April. I tracked most of the sister workers who came over from the Old Country (UK) to Australia for 1913. In 1914, some sister workers returned and others stayed in Aust. These two didnt return to the work: Mary McLeod and Susan Hooper. Susan's sister Harriett returned however. This doesnt mean one of them is "the one"--it just means that I havent found anything further about either of them--other than what is in Willie Hughes Letter. I am not good at searching NZ records. Thanks Cherie, more strength to your arm! We have some capable researchers in NZ, let's see what they might turn up. Perhaps there's even some information from the Australian connection. Let's see.
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Post by faune on Nov 15, 2014 21:06:38 GMT -5
I believe I found the segment within Chapter 11 which named the sister worker who exposed Wm. Irvine's sexual proclivities and her name was not Delilah. What I also learned here was that George Walker was singled out as the "wolf" who stole Wm. Irvine's crown or rightful place as "head honcho" in the 2x2's. Also, it interesting to note years later that Jack Carroll, overseer in Western U.S., also had a mistress for years who was also a sister worker. In fact, she is buried next to him at their joint grave site. So, it doesn't exactly appear that a celibate lifestyle is practiced among workers, especially in places of leadership either.
Here's the excerpt with the name of the sister worker, Isabel Norris, who ratted out Wm. Irvine for making a pass at her.
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Post by faune on Nov 15, 2014 21:34:40 GMT -5
Honestly, William Irvine had one major ego problem, by the sound of his assertions below! It reminds me of that often quoted Proverbs 16:18, which says, "Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit going before a fall."
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Post by faune on Nov 16, 2014 14:22:11 GMT -5
Also, both groups go out 2x2's, have no church building, and call themselves the "Truth" among their members. The JWs started out meeting in homes but over time changed to "Kingdom Halls" which are church buildings. Fixit ~ And the workers went from large tents to buildings on their convention grounds to house the meeting and the folks staying on the grounds. So, there seems to be another discrepancy here in the 2x2's "no church buildings" mantra they use, too. Actually, what's the big deal with church buildings in the first place for people to gather in unity of fellowship, which is the meaning of church?
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Post by Mary on Nov 16, 2014 15:29:08 GMT -5
God dwells in a tent. Didn't Moses worship God and place the tabernacle in a tent? What has changed? God now dwells in a building as long as it is not built for worship every Sunday but only 4- 8 days a year??
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Post by Greg on Nov 16, 2014 17:21:51 GMT -5
No, I do not intend to sabotage this thread with the topic of tongues. Every thread you sabotage with aliens or tongues. . . . or Waldensians. As to "no church buildings": In most places, in my understanding, the friends and workers church/fellowship is not a legal entity, not government registered for "church" or "non-profit" or "charity" reasons. So, "officially" they have no church buildings. Technically, though, they do have church buildings because they use buildings owned by church members for fellowship purpose. Still, as much as I know, they have no buildings similar to a Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, JW, LDS, or what-have-you "church buiding". As to the topic, "When did the Cover Up and Hiding Wm Irvine's begin?" This probably started just as soon or very soon after William was removed from the church.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 16, 2014 20:01:34 GMT -5
Where is any documentation that Irvine "while spending time with Pentecostal people in Los Angeles he received the gift of tongues and of interpreting tongues." I don't know of any myself and I've read all Irvine's letters 3+ times. I have found no indication that Irvine believed he had the gift of tongues. Chapter 6 of my WmI book contains all I have found about Wm's connection to the Azusa Street Revival in LA when Pentecostalism was born. On the other hand, John Long stated openly in his journal that he believed in the gift of tongues.www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/longjohn-gifts.phpJohn Long wrote: I myself have been rejected fellowship at the Lord's table, because I believed in the gift of tongues, which is a Scriptural gift ; Read John's views about Pentecostalism and tongues NathanB: I spoke in Gibberish tongues when I was a Pentecostal in 1978. The Pentecostal "Gibberish" Pentecostal tongues, which hardly anyone can understand, most of the time even the speaker can't understand it either. The Pentecostal "Gibberish" tongue would cause a lot of confusion, chaos in the 2x2 Sunday morning fellowship services, where everyone take parts in the meetings with One intelligible language.
Nathan, who do mean that 'spoke in tongues'? "when I was a Pentecostal in 1978." Are you stating this for yourself or someone else? Pentecostal glossolalia does resemble human language but it is never based on any language itself. You won't find, for instance, that it even resembles a language that is not known to the person
Although using vowels & consonants, they are arranged in something not even grammatically correct!
After studying the subject it is no wonder that "hardly anyone can understand it & most of the time even the speaker can't understand it either."
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Post by Mary on Nov 16, 2014 20:56:29 GMT -5
It sounded like a drunk person when the apostles did it or call it gibberish if you like - that is how it sounded to those who did not understand what was happening. Of course a foreign language sounds gibberish to someone who does not know the language, whether it is a human language of not. As we know Acts 2 was the only time it says they heard it in their own language. It is not clear if the apostles actually spoke all these languages but there was something that caused unbelievers to think they were drunk or speaking in gibberish as you call it.
Multitudes started speaking in tongues when the Holy Spirit fell on them on other occasions and they were to have them in their meetings speaking it one by one when believers met together. Even if it was another language, the speaker was filled with the Holy Spirit and did not know the language they were speaking. So of course, if people are speaking in other languages it would sound gibberish to those who did not know the language. It makes no difference if it is Spanish to a English speaking audience, it would still sound gibberish to those who do not know Spanish. They were not speaking a language they knew or had learnt other wise there was no need for the Holy Spirit in these and there would be no point in them speaking in tongues as they all knew the language anyway according to Paul who said speak in the language so they all understand unless there is someone who has the gift of interpretation.
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