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Post by slowtosee on Nov 16, 2014 21:07:53 GMT -5
Paul relates some thoughts on speaking in tongues in 1 corinthians 14...... surely does not deny the reality of it but not a big proponent it seems...."for he that speaketh in an unknown tongue..... alvin
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Post by Mary on Nov 16, 2014 22:04:49 GMT -5
It does not say the word tongues is languages, it is the power of the Holy Spirit, only in Acts 2 it says they heard it in their own language. Paul says in the spirit he speak mysteries and he calls it speaking in the tongues of men and angels. So both either or. Unknown was added to make the meaning more clear that it was unknown and not known languages.
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Post by Mary on Nov 16, 2014 22:07:37 GMT -5
Back on topic. It seems that William Irvine as off track while a worker with them and was the reason the other workers put him out. Nothing to do with tongues.
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Post by Mary on Nov 16, 2014 22:39:05 GMT -5
No gift of the Holy Spirit if they spoke in languages they already knew.
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 2:05:11 GMT -5
Nathan ~ The noted entries from John Long's Journal, 1918-1921, didn't give us an exact date when this spiritual gifting actually occurred ~ they only provided a "window of opportunity" between 1915 and September 1919, when he later returns to his hometown in Kilsyth, Scotland. I made a "wild guess" that it might have been around November 1918, the end of the war, because of his professed new revelations he claimed to have received around then? However, that was only a guess on my part.
Also, Irvine doesn't mention this experience in any of his letters that Cherie has posted on her TTT site in Chapter 6, which relates to this time period in his life. In fact, his early letters relating to the Azusa Street Revival were in condemnation of this practice in its beginning around April 1906. Also, he had some choice words for new and upcoming female Pentecostal evangelist in Los Angeles, Aimee Semple McPherson, calling her "Queen Jezebel" in some of his letters for helping to promote this new Pentecostal experience in the early 20th century. Perhaps he was jealous of her charismatic ability to attract a crowd, too, since Irvine didn't appreciate competition as a leader and had a habit of downgrading other popular evangelists during his time? Just check out Chapter 6 in Cherie's book for these tidbits that Irvine shared regarding "Sister Aimee" as his competition. One thing for sure, William Irvine didn't like being "upstaged" by a woman preacher during this time!
So, it does appear a bit ironic that he returns later to Los Angeles, after his ouster from the 2x2's in 1915, and receives the gift of tongues himself perhaps around 12 years later? Perhaps he wanted to impress the people on Azusa Street in Los Angeles with his new revelations and this was his only way of convincing them to take him serious?
However, I agree with you about what they call tongues today appears as mostly gibberish and nothing like the tongues in Acts 2, where people understood in their own languages. I believe Pentecostals call this "gibberish" you speak of as being their "personal prayer language," [/strong]which differs from the earlier tongues demonstrated in Acts 2. The account of the biblical outpouring of the Spirit in the book of Acts enabled many foreigners, who were visiting Jerusalem during the Passover Feast, to understand God's special message of salvation in their own language and be converted to Christianity. [/p]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimee_Semple_McPherson
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/06wmibook.php#azusa
There is nowhere in the Scriptures that the believers speak in "Gibberish" tongues like the Pentecostal do to one another in the churches, to himself, or to God. When we pray to God in prayer we speak with the language we understand or sometimes telepathy our own thoughts to God. What good does it do to talk or pray to God in a language we don't understand? Why would anyone pray in public a personal/Gibberish language when others around you can't understand and you yourself don't even know what you're saying? Don't you know the unbelievers, who are listening will think you're Crazy, maybe stay off the med too long.
[/quote][/p]
Nathan ~ Obviously, people get some "warm fuzzy feelings" of ecstasy from this display of emotionalism and it's very addictive or they wouldn't be engaging in it? However, I do agree with your thoughts about prayer above and the original purpose of tongues as used in the Bible in Acts 2.
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 2:37:26 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Obviously, people get some "warm fuzzy feelings" of ecstasy from this display of emotionalism and it's very addictive or they wouldn't be engaging in it? However, I do agree with your thoughts about prayer above and the original purpose of tongues as used in the Bible in Acts 2. ~~ NathanB: When I spoke in tongues I felt VERY high spiritually... But had a hang over the next day! it drain all of my energy... and I want more of it. It was VERY addictive spiritually high. What spook me was I could NOT control it.... goes on for hours. Nathan ~ In addition, during this period of time when Jesus lived and afterwards, the people also "spoke in unknown tongues" in the mystery religions connected to Corinth and Rome, which were more of a display of emotionalism resulting in ecstasy than any communicated language as demonstrated in Acts 2.
This article below may help to clarify this matter of what might have been going on in Corinth that Paul felt needed to be corrected, which was this ecstatic tongues-speaking directly related to their former pagan lifestyles before becoming Christians. This was entirely different from the real gift of tongues experienced in Acts 2, which resulted in about 3,000 people being saved and brought into the Christian fellowship due to them hearing the gospel proclaimed "in their own language."
www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 3:30:57 GMT -5
Here's an excerpt from that same article referenced earlier relating to these mystery religions in existence before and after the time of Christ and which continued in existence during the formative years of the early church in the centuries that followed until the time of Augustine (A.D. 354—430).
www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html
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Post by Mary on Nov 17, 2014 3:32:30 GMT -5
No such warm fuzzy feelings of ecstasy. And never heard of it being addictive or they wouldn't be engaging in it? Try saying that to the apostles and New Testament church. Saying the apostles brought in their pagan ideas in this manner? Saying God pouring out his spirit on the people was pagan. You have to do better than that.
We are sabotaging this thread with apparent ignorance on the topic of tongues and denial of the Bible and the power of the Holy Spirit in the lives of his people. I thought better of you faune, but guess I was wrong.
Wouldn't you say this was a pretty emotional experience. Acts 2: 1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans?12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 for these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 and I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 3:53:25 GMT -5
quote, "Workers Believe their Way is the "Way of Life"
Workers Claim to be the only source of Truth
Workers Claim their Way is the original faith planted in the heart of humanity from the foundation of the earth.
Workers Reject Christian doctrines and creeds
Workers Believe Jesus is just a man who came to be the example of how to die to self.
Workers Believe that man must die to self like Jesus in order to receive the Christ spirit.
Workers Are monotheistic but anti-Trinitarian.
Workers Do not worship Jesus
Workers Call Jesus their Elder Brother
Workers - Each meeting ends with formal handshake
Workers Respect the Head-workers as the source of light, knowledge and instruction
Workers Believe member's first loyalty and duty is to obey and submit to the workers
Workers Believe the head workers are like Christ
Workers Believe the workers take upon themselves the priesthood of Christ to finish His work.
Workers Believe the Bible is incomprehensible to anyone but themselves
Workers Use the Bible allegorically and symbolically ("spiritually") rather than literally
Workers Believe the Old Testament was written for the Hebrews and is outdated tradition, has no life.
Workers Are idolatrous and unbiblical in their view of God. Celebrate Halloween but refuse to celebrate Christmas or Easter.
Workers View their fellowship above God's Law and civil law. Don't report their income to the civil government or even to one another.
Workers Admit new members by invitation only. Refuse baptism to members who don't conform to the unwritten rules. Those who openly disagree with the Head Workers will be put out of the fellowship.
Workers and members aspire higher spiritual status over one another.
Workers Do not welcome the general public to fellowship meetings and Bible studies.
Workers Intentionally hide their "Truth" by using different definitions of "faith," "grace," "sin," "gospel," "the Spirit" to confuse outsiders, members and anyone considered unworthy. Secretive with membership information, worker whereabouts and workers meeting.
Workers Twist scripture in order to disobey it and supersede scripture with their own traditions and hierarchy.
Workers Do not consider the Blood of Jesus sufficient to cleanse sin.
Workers Hide their sexual deviancies, pedophilia, abortions, sexual immorality, perversions, lying, extortion, drunkenness, occultism, gambling, theft, covetousness, etc.
Worker Eddie Cooney said he would not hesitate to spill his blood for his followers and that if he was killed, that it would do more good for them than anything he could do.
Workers Don't warn against witchcraft, cults, occultic activities, mediums, tea leaf reading, horoscopes, Hinduism, New Age beliefs. Yet, they will warn against all Christian contacts, books, information and fellowship. Reject fellowship with Christians, calling them "enemies and of the Devil." Members do not identify themselves as Christian; instead they are "professing." Do not honor or identify with the Cross of Christ, saying the Cross was a murder weapon. Carefully monitor all new members via their testimonies and appearance. Believe that the sacrifice made by the workers is co-equal to Christ's sacrifice in saving people. Historically and occasionally use Masonic buildings for gospel and special meetings.
Workers Do not teach the doctrine of original sin.
Workers Believe their methodology and personal merit are necessary for salvation.
Workers Focus on outward appearances, rather than inward character; believe community service, Biblical education, evangelism, worship and charitable activities are unnecessary.
Workers Praise men instead of God."
Of the thirty one statements here: TEN are outright lies SIX are plain wrong ELEVEN are misrepresentations FOUR are correct.
Who wrote this list? I am glad it's here in black and white to show how dishonest and stupid the author is. Quote - "Workers Believe Jesus is just a man who came to be the example of how to die to self." Quote - "Workers Believe the head workers are like Christ" Quote - "Workers Use the Bible allegorically and symbolically ... rather than literally" Quote - "Workers Do not consider the Blood of Jesus sufficient to cleanse sin."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 4:11:35 GMT -5
quote, "Workers Believe their Way is the "Way of Life" Workers Claim to be the only source of Truth Workers Claim their Way is the original faith planted in the heart of humanity from the foundation of the earth. Workers Reject Christian doctrines and creeds Workers Believe Jesus is just a man who came to be the example of how to die to self. Workers Believe that man must die to self like Jesus in order to receive the Christ spirit. Workers Are monotheistic but anti-Trinitarian. Workers Do not worship Jesus Workers Call Jesus their Elder Brother Workers - Each meeting ends with formal handshake Workers Respect the Head-workers as the source of light, knowledge and instruction Workers Believe member's first loyalty and duty is to obey and submit to the workers Workers Believe the head workers are like Christ Workers Believe the workers take upon themselves the priesthood of Christ to finish His work. Workers Believe the Bible is incomprehensible to anyone but themselves Workers Use the Bible allegorically and symbolically ("spiritually") rather than literally Workers Believe the Old Testament was written for the Hebrews and is outdated tradition, has no life. Workers Are idolatrous and unbiblical in their view of God. Celebrate Halloween but refuse to celebrate Christmas or Easter. Workers View their fellowship above God's Law and civil law. Don't report their income to the civil government or even to one another. Workers Admit new members by invitation only. Refuse baptism to members who don't conform to the unwritten rules. Those who openly disagree with the Head Workers will be put out of the fellowship. Workers and members aspire higher spiritual status over one another. Workers Do not welcome the general public to fellowship meetings and Bible studies. Workers Intentionally hide their "Truth" by using different definitions of "faith," "grace," "sin," "gospel," "the Spirit" to confuse outsiders, members and anyone considered unworthy. Secretive with membership information, worker whereabouts and workers meeting. Workers Twist scripture in order to disobey it and supersede scripture with their own traditions and hierarchy. Workers Do not consider the Blood of Jesus sufficient to cleanse sin. Workers Hide their sexual deviancies, pedophilia, abortions, sexual immorality, perversions, lying, extortion, drunkenness, occultism, gambling, theft, covetousness, etc. Worker Eddie Cooney said he would not hesitate to spill his blood for his followers and that if he was killed, that it would do more good for them than anything he could do. Workers Don't warn against witchcraft, cults, occultic activities, mediums, tea leaf reading, horoscopes, Hinduism, New Age beliefs. Yet, they will warn against all Christian contacts, books, information and fellowship. Reject fellowship with Christians, calling them "enemies and of the Devil." Members do not identify themselves as Christian; instead they are "professing." Do not honor or identify with the Cross of Christ, saying the Cross was a murder weapon. Carefully monitor all new members via their testimonies and appearance. Believe that the sacrifice made by the workers is co-equal to Christ's sacrifice in saving people. Historically and occasionally use Masonic buildings for gospel and special meetings. Workers Do not teach the doctrine of original sin. Workers Believe their methodology and personal merit are necessary for salvation. Workers Focus on outward appearances, rather than inward character; believe community service, Biblical education, evangelism, worship and charitable activities are unnecessary. Workers Praise men instead of God." Of the thirty one statements here: TEN are outright lies SIX are plain wrong ELEVEN are misrepresentations FOUR are correct.
Who wrote this list? I am glad it's here in black and white to show how dishonest and stupid the author is. Quote - "Workers Believe Jesus is just a man who came to be the example of how to die to self."
This is very true, supported by Gospel fact! One must understand the context. Jesus was a human being. He was NOT God. He was God's only begotten "human being" Son. It is a human being that God has installed on the throne of Glory in Heaven.
Quote - "Workers Believe the head workers are like Christ"
This should be true, but should also be extended to every true believer who relies on the Christ within for Salvation. Christ in us is our hope of Glory.
Quote - "Workers Use the Bible allegorically and symbolically ... rather than literally"
There's a time and place for all three!
Quote - "Workers Do not consider the Blood of Jesus sufficient to cleanse sin."There's a vast difference between "sin" and "salvation." Our sins are not cleansed with the blood of Christ to allow us in a cleansed state to return to sin. There is much in scripture to justify this. We must be born again. Christ's supreme sacrifice on the cross did not make us "born again." It did however, make provision for cleansing our sins. Christ's sacrifice AND being born again with the Spirit of God go hand in glove. Relying of Christ's sacrifice, without being born again, does NOT atone for our sins.
That extends your true list from four to eight. I haven't considered the rest.
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 4:15:55 GMT -5
No such warm fuzzy feelings of ecstasy. And never heard of it being addictive or they wouldn't be engaging in it? Try saying that to the apostles and New Testament church. Saying the apostles brought in their pagan ideas in this manner? Saying God pouring out his spirit on the people was pagan. You have to do better than that.
We are sabotaging this thread with apparent ignorance on the topic of tongues and denial of the Bible and the power of the Holy Spirit in the lives of his people. I thought better of you faune, but guess I was wrong.
Wouldn't you say this was a pretty emotional experience. Acts 2: 1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans?12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 for these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 and I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mary ~ I was just providing some historical background in the article I cited about the mystery religions surrounding Corinth and how they possibly had an influence upon the Church at Corinth, described as still carnal by Paul? Since Paul felt it necessary to write a letter to correct some of the abuses with speaking in tongues within the congregation, I believe this may have been the case? However, I firmly believe that the experience going on in Corinth and the one described in Acts 2 are of two different varieties in spirituality, due to the corrective stance that Paul takes with the Corinthian church as evidenced in Corinthians 12 - 14?
Also, Nathan spoke of an experience with tongues from his own experience that is also evidenced within Pentecostal churches where this state of ecstasy is achieved within the emotions of people claiming to be "slain in the spirit." I have attended Pentecostal churches in the past myself, so I'm familiar with what goes on in their services, too. There's definitely is a display of emotionalism in these services as people "get in the spirit" and fall out in services, described as being "slain in the spirit." Also, there's a lively display of the same on national TV with Benny Hinn and other so-called faith healers for those who have not been exposed to the same. Often the music in the services contribute a lot to this emotional arousal, too.
I believe you may have been referring to the following exchange between myself and Nathan below by your comments in your opening paragraph above, which I highlighted in blue?
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Post by Mary on Nov 17, 2014 4:32:11 GMT -5
As I said it is an emotional experience and in Acts 2 it was just that. I would say a conversion is an emotional experience too. Some thing wrong if we had no emotion attached to it. As I also said, there were some who did not understand it and thought they were drunk in the Bible. There was a difference between when the Holy Spirit fell on the multitudes and when tongues was spoken by a believer in their meetings. That difference is present today in Pentecostal services where the congregation praise God in worship in their own language (heavenly language if you want to call it that) and an individual speaks in tongues and someone interprets. One is the multitude, the other is an individual. There is also a difference with someone receiving the Holy Spirit or Baptised in the Holy Spirit as they call it and someone who has the gift of tongues and brings a message in tongues with an interpreter. Baptism in the Holy Spirit can be a one off whereas someone with the gift of tongues uses it on other occasions and there is an interpreter. Paul was speaking of the latter. he does not seem to be against tongues just against it if there is no interpreter as it is no use to others if there is not an interpreter.
I disagree that the person is not in control of it like Nathan claims he was not. They say that the person must be in control of it.
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 4:48:34 GMT -5
As I said it is an emotional experience and in Acts 2 it was just that. I would say a conversion is an emotional experience too. Some thing wrong if we had no emotion attached to it. As I also said, there were some who did not understand it and thought they were drunk in the Bible. There was a difference between when the Holy Spirit fell on the multitudes and when tongues was spoken by a believer in their meetings. That difference is present today in Pentecostal services where the congregation praise God in worship in their own language (heavenly language if you want to call it that) and an individual speaks in tongues and someone interprets. One is the multitude, the other is an individual. There is also a difference with someone receiving the Holy Spirit or Baptised in the Holy Spirit as they call it and someone who has the gift of tongues and brings a message in tongues with an interpreter. Baptism in the Holy Spirit can be a one off whereas someone with the gift of tongues uses it on other occasions and there is an interpreter. Paul was speaking of the latter. he does not seem to be against tongues just against it if there is no interpreter as it is no use to others if there is not an interpreter. I disagree that the person is not in control of it like Nathan claims he was not. They say that the person must be in control of it. Mary ~ I do not believe the Bible actually supports some "heavenly unknown prayer language," as some may interpret I Corinthians 14 to convey, which is in direct contrast with Acts 2, where the apostles spoke in actual languages (unknown to them personally) that visitors to Jerusalem understood. I'm sure it did appear as an emotional experience to onlookers, who thought these people were drunk, but it did witness to the unbelievers present at the time and 3,000 were recorded as saved as a result.
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 4:48:45 GMT -5
As I said it is an emotional experience and in Acts 2 it was just that. I would say a conversion is an emotional experience too. Some thing wrong if we had no emotion attached to it. As I also said, there were some who did not understand it and thought they were drunk in the Bible. There was a difference between when the Holy Spirit fell on the multitudes and when tongues was spoken by a believer in their meetings. That difference is present today in Pentecostal services where the congregation praise God in worship in their own language (heavenly language if you want to call it that) and an individual speaks in tongues and someone interprets. One is the multitude, the other is an individual. There is also a difference with someone receiving the Holy Spirit or Baptised in the Holy Spirit as they call it and someone who has the gift of tongues and brings a message in tongues with an interpreter. Baptism in the Holy Spirit can be a one off whereas someone with the gift of tongues uses it on other occasions and there is an interpreter. Paul was speaking of the latter. he does not seem to be against tongues just against it if there is no interpreter as it is no use to others if there is not an interpreter. I disagree that the person is not in control of it like Nathan claims he was not. They say that the person must be in control of it. Mary ~ I do not believe the Bible actually supports some "heavenly unknown prayer language," as some may interpret I Corinthians 14 to convey, which is in direct contrast with Acts 2, where the apostles spoke in actual languages (unknown to them personally) that visitors to Jerusalem understood. I'm sure it did appear as an emotional experience to onlookers, who thought these people were drunk, but it did witness to the unbelievers present at the time and 3,000 were recorded as saved as a result.
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Post by Mary on Nov 17, 2014 4:58:35 GMT -5
And it would have appeared an emotional experienced to those who experienced it. Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue......
Being amazed and marvelled is showing emotion to me and this is how those experienced it described it.
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 5:08:45 GMT -5
Paul relates some thoughts on speaking in tongues in 1 corinthians 14...... surely does not deny the reality of it but not a big proponent it seems...."for he that speaketh in an unknown tongue..... alvin Alvin ~ I agree, as you can see from reading this chapter in the Amplified Version below, Paul was not a big proponent of talking in tongues without interpretation, which would also indicate languages involved here as well as understanding of the same, IMHO? That was definitely the case in Acts 2, but I don't feel you can say the same of the Corinthian church, which he also referred to as "still carnal" regarding spiritual maturity.
Also, this particular chapter was given in corrective tone due to abuses within the church regarding their "speaking in tongues." In addition, I don't see any indication of individual believers being given a special heavenly prayer language, as some have connected with this chapter in the past, to explain the difference between the church in Acts and the Corinthian Church.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014
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Post by Greg on Nov 17, 2014 6:35:20 GMT -5
Start a new thread when you change topics.
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 14:31:49 GMT -5
And it would have appeared an emotional experienced to those who experienced it. Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue......
Being amazed and marvelled is showing emotion to me and this is how those experienced it described it. Mary ~ I'm not denying there was emotions shown here, but simply stating that the term used here was in reference to languages as I highlighted above in blue, where everybody understood in their own individual language or tongue. I believe Nathan was making the same point in his posts as well?
Also, people who have analyzed the use of tongues today see no direct correlation between any known language, as was the case in Bible days. However, there is resemblance to what I described earlier within the mystery religions around Corinth and Rome where people also "spoke in tongues" in their gatherings and had various emotional displays termed as ecstasy, where they supposedly communed with the gods in joyous celebration as the drums and cymbals clanged.
Just check out what Paul actually says in I Corinthians 14 in the Amplified Version to see what I mean here?
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 14:58:04 GMT -5
Start a new thread when you change topics. Greg ~ Sorry, I guess we got detoured when discussing William Irvine and the rumor about him receiving the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues while later in Los Angeles after the war? This was recorded in John Long's Journal, 1918-1921 entries, about Irvine and his association with the Pentecostals on Azusa Street in Los Angeles, CA before and after the war.
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Post by faune on Nov 17, 2014 15:32:52 GMT -5
It does not say the word tongues is languages, it is the power of the Holy Spirit, only in Acts 2 it says they heard it in their own language. Paul says in the spirit he speak mysteries and he calls it speaking in the tongues of men and angels. So both either or. Unknown was added to make the meaning more clear that it was unknown and not known languages. Mary ~ The Early Church Fathers (ECF's) might disagree with your contemporary view regarding speaking in tongues? Just check out this article below for a study on this subject that also goes back to early Christianity.
www.tms.edu/tmsj/17e.pdf
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Post by christiansburg on Nov 18, 2014 9:02:08 GMT -5
It really must have been a challenge. I wish people had seen through it all and it had failed. Then my parents wouldn't have wasted their lives in it. I can't understand what my grandfather saw in them (the workers). Possibly because they rolled up their sleeves and worked the ranch with him and his sons? They became friends and he just decided to fall in with their religious ideas too? Who knows. I know for my maternal grandmother it was a hard time in her life when the workers hit town. She and my mother were the only two in that family that ever professed. In my dad's family it was my grandfather, step grandmother, my dad and an aunt. So not many in either family fell for it. I just happened to be in the family of the two that did profess. Snow ~ No doubt William Irvine was exposed to Charles T. Russell's teachings before 1914, because of his Omega Doctrine and its claims? By the late 1800's, the JW's and their literature was being distributed globally by Russell, so that wouldn't surprise me if Irvine didn't adopt some of his teachings in his "own experiment" involving the 2x2's? Both men claimed the "age of grace" would end and the tribulation period would begin. Irvine predicted August 1914 and Russell claimed October 1914. Also, both groups go out 2x2's, have no church buildings, and call themselves the "Truth" among their members. (Jehovah Witnesses (JW's) originally met in homes before they adopted the Kingdom Halls as their meeting places.) In addition, William Irvine and Charles T. Russell were members of the Free Masons along with Joseph Smith of the Mormons (LDS). You can find many similarities between the teachings of these men and the Free Masons in my link found below.
However, I cannot help but think some of his delusional thinking might also be related to his time spent among the Pentecostals in Los Angeles (Azusa Street Revival) during the war years? He also claimed to have received the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues as a result of this later association, per the cited Wiki article below, with information gained from John Long's Journal entries (1918-1921). This took place sometime before he returned to his hometown of Kilsyth, Scotland in September 1919 and followed with his trip to Palestine (Jerusalem) in November 1919. That would put the date somewhere between 1915 and September 1919; however, he especially mentions visions of his around the end of the war in November 1918, which makes me wonder if this wasn't around the same time he received his spiritual gifts mentioned above?
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/06wmibook.php#azusa
www.votisalive.com/content/what-do-william-irvine-joseph-smith-charles-russell-have-common-0 What Do William Irvine, Joseph Smith, and Charles Russell Have In Common?
thewaythetruthandthelife.net/index/3_observe/3-2/3-2-34_care/3-2-34-16_1947_william-irvine.htm
I found the concluding comments re: "What do William Irvine, Joseph Smith, and Charles Russell have in common. It so overwhelming false. No wonder people hold such condemnation attitudes towards our fellowship. If you tell a lie then pass it on, repeat it again and again it tends to become believable. Without going into specifics on each phrase (read for yourself) I say it is mostly baloney. My comments certainly wont't clear the distorted record but just for starters; where in the world did this label come up that we don't believe Jesus was nothing more than a man or that his death was not sufficient for salvation.
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 10:23:15 GMT -5
Snow ~ No doubt William Irvine was exposed to Charles T. Russell's teachings before 1914, because of his Omega Doctrine and its claims? By the late 1800's, the JW's and their literature was being distributed globally by Russell, so that wouldn't surprise me if Irvine didn't adopt some of his teachings in his "own experiment" involving the 2x2's? Both men claimed the "age of grace" would end and the tribulation period would begin. Irvine predicted August 1914 and Russell claimed October 1914. Also, both groups go out 2x2's, have no church buildings, and call themselves the "Truth" among their members. (Jehovah Witnesses (JW's) originally met in homes before they adopted the Kingdom Halls as their meeting places.) In addition, William Irvine and Charles T. Russell were members of the Free Masons along with Joseph Smith of the Mormons (LDS). You can find many similarities between the teachings of these men and the Free Masons in my link found below.
However, I cannot help but think some of his delusional thinking might also be related to his time spent among the Pentecostals in Los Angeles (Azusa Street Revival) during the war years? He also claimed to have received the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues as a result of this later association, per the cited Wiki article below, with information gained from John Long's Journal entries (1918-1921). This took place sometime before he returned to his hometown of Kilsyth, Scotland in September 1919 and followed with his trip to Palestine (Jerusalem) in November 1919. That would put the date somewhere between 1915 and September 1919; however, he especially mentions visions of his around the end of the war in November 1918, which makes me wonder if this wasn't around the same time he received his spiritual gifts mentioned above?
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/06wmibook.php#azusa
www.votisalive.com/content/what-do-william-irvine-joseph-smith-charles-russell-have-common-0 What Do William Irvine, Joseph Smith, and Charles Russell Have In Common?
thewaythetruthandthelife.net/index/3_observe/3-2/3-2-34_care/3-2-34-16_1947_william-irvine.htm
I found the concluding comments re: "What do William Irvine, Joseph Smith, and Charles Russell have in common. It so overwhelming false. No wonder people hold such condemnation attitudes towards our fellowship. If you tell a lie then pass it on, repeat it again and again it tends to become believable. Without going into specifics on each phrase (read for yourself) I say it is mostly baloney. My comments certainly wont't clear the distorted record but just for starters; where in the world did this label come up that we don't believe Jesus was nothing more than a man or that his death was not sufficient for salvation. Christianburg ~ Perhaps when the workers became your only source of salvation in the world through following their exclusive teaching and labeling all other churches as false? The JW's and Mormons follow the same line of thinking along with other exclusive groups who follow the same "salvation plus works" mentality through them only. That was NEVER the message of the Cross and Jesus, according to John 3:16. They changed it to suit their own preferences. Within the 2x2's it came with the addition of the Living Witness Doctrine in 1907 which became "the guiding rule" within the 2x2's. Anybody who didn't adhere to their particular party line were excommunicated from the fellowship. John Long was one of the first workers to go due to his opposition to such a teaching and others followed, too. Just check out Cherie's TTT site for more information along these lines with documented evidence from letters penned by William Irvine himself along with others.
Also, you might check out some of the old convention notes on line where these older workers exposed their "elder brother" teaching about Jesus and what it meant. Just think about it, when was the last time you ever heard a worker speak on the message of the Cross and what it meant for humanity or about "imputed righteousness and salvation by grace" as a result of accepting Christ's sacrifice on our part and believing His message of redemption? My guess would be never heard it mentioned, since you are taught that you have to "earn your salvation" by all the works they prescribed and follow the workers to the letter, not Jesus, to even have any hope of salvation? JMT
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 10:38:32 GMT -5
Scott ~ Thanks for separating the threads for us, which really needed to be done due to detour to a change in discussion altogether.
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Post by christiansburg on Nov 18, 2014 11:52:33 GMT -5
I found the concluding comments re: "What do William Irvine, Joseph Smith, and Charles Russell have in common. It so overwhelming false. No wonder people hold such condemnation attitudes towards our fellowship. If you tell a lie then pass it on, repeat it again and again it tends to become believable. Without going into specifics on each phrase (read for yourself) I say it is mostly baloney. My comments certainly wont't clear the distorted record but just for starters; where in the world did this label come up that we don't believe Jesus was nothing more than a man or that his death was not sufficient for salvation. Christianburg ~ Perhaps when the workers became your only source of salvation in the world through following their exclusive teaching and labeling all other churches as false? The JW's and Mormons follow the same line of thinking along with other exclusive groups who follow the same "salvation plus works" mentality through them only. That was NEVER the message of the Cross and Jesus, according to John 3:16. They changed it to suit their own preferences. Within the 2x2's it came with the addition of the Living Witness Doctrine in 1907 which became "the guiding rule" within the 2x2's. Anybody who didn't adhere to their particular party line were excommunicated from the fellowship. John Long was one of the first workers to go due to his opposition to such a teaching and others followed, too. Just check out Cherie's TTT site for more information along these lines with documented evidence from letters penned by William Irvine himself along with others.
Also, you might check out some of the old convention notes on line where these older workers exposed their "elder brother" teaching about Jesus and what it meant. Just think about it, when was the last time you ever heard a worker speak on the message of the Cross and what it meant for humanity or about "imputed righteousness and salvation by grace" as a result of accepting Christ's sacrifice on our part and believing His message of redemption? My guess would be never heard it mentioned, since you are taught that you have to "earn your salvation" by all the works they prescribed and follow the workers to the letter, not Jesus, to even have any hope of salvation? JMT
Since my beginning in 1956 I have always heard that salvation came through redemption by Christ only and there is nothing we can do to merit this. These are the kinds of sermons preached by the ministry today. So to say we don't believe in Calvary is just an example of the misrepresentation that is perpetrated continuously. I reject such comments. As to what Wm Irvine preached it has already been established that he was a misguided man. These comments are in my Critique of "Shape of the Shapeless Movement" in Nov. 2013. "At a convention in Eastern USA in 1999, Don Garland mentioned these things as to why Calvary was necessary: Romans 14: 9, that he might be Lord both of the living and the dead, (if Christ is not our Lord then the purpose of Calvary is not being fulfilled); II Cor. 5: 15, He died for all that they which live might not henceforth live unto themselves; Gal. 1: 4, ...who gave himself for our sins that he might deliver us from the present evil world; Titus 2: 14 ...who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all inequity...; I Peter 3: 18,...for Christ also hath once suffered for us, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God... For me, this carries a more weighty definition of what we believe than just the church in the home and a 2x2 ministry."
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Post by Brick on Nov 18, 2014 13:11:37 GMT -5
The friends and workers believe in... There is no one thing that can follow that statement. We like to say that we are the same all over the world, but the truth is that we are not even of the same beliefs as those in our own meetings. I have heard salvation by works preached and in the same convention, another worker preached the message of the cross and salvation is by grace alone. This year at convention we learned that one of the works is to give up our pets since many workers have pet allergies. Losing our dog made our whole family depressed. We still miss him months later.
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Post by emy on Nov 18, 2014 13:27:38 GMT -5
The friends and workers believe in... There is no one thing that can follow that statement. We like to say that we are the same all over the world, but the truth is that we are not even of the same beliefs as those in our own meetings. I have heard salvation by works preached and in the same convention, another worker preached the message of the cross and salvation is by grace alone. This year at convention we learned that one of the works is to give up our pets since many workers have pet allergies. Losing our dog made our whole family depressed. We still miss him months later. I doubt very much that anyone believes a person can be saved by giving up a pet! (Or not saved by not giving it up.) Many workers have allergies, but few are so severe they can't tolerate a pet for night or two? Of course if every home has a pet indoors.....
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Post by emy on Nov 18, 2014 13:34:33 GMT -5
Can you give us some 'text' on this? Paraphrased if you want. Personally the only work I've heard that enables salvation is obedience to the Holy Spirit or living out the teaching of Jesus. I think that's Biblical... and may even be somewhat different for any person depending on the gift of the Spirit they have received.
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 13:59:27 GMT -5
Can you give us some 'text' on this? Paraphrased if you want. Personally the only work I've heard that enables salvation is obedience to the Holy Spirit or living out the teaching of Jesus. I think that's Biblical... and may even be somewhat different for any person depending on the gift of the Spirit they have received. Emy, when I hear the phrase 'saved by grace', I never get the impression that anything as to be done other than giving your life to Jesus. Not sure what that means exactly, but I think it's just believing in Jesus, that he died for our sins, and that the only salvation is this belief. Once someone does this in their life, nothing they do makes any difference, they can do good things as a 'result of' Jesus in their lives, but even if they don't do any good works, they are still saved. When I was growing up in the 2x2's I was taught it took both a belief in Jesus (giving our life to him) and then good works to stay saved. We weren't just automatically assured heaven just because we professed and were baptized for eg. The saved by grace seems to be an assurance that once you are baptized and given your life to Jesus in the form of believing in him, then you are assured a place in heaven.
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