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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 21:07:05 GMT -5
If we go by the Christian definition of their God though, he is all powerful and all Knowing. He had to know we would mess up if given free will. He had to have known that Lucifer and 1/3 of his angels would rebel. And, we really haven't addressed what would be so wrong with paradise that they needed a change. Yes but wait. If he hadnt created before he wouldnt know the results. I dont understand your last sentence. There isnt anything wrong in paradise. He got rid of the problem. I just realised some thing. He wants to feel loved back. Thats why he requires worship. Angels were created for that purpose. I'm only going by the definition of all knowing. That would infer that he can't fail without knowing he would fail. What was so bad about heaven that Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels decided they had to rebel? That's actually a good number that were not happy. Why do you think that was?
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Post by faune on Nov 21, 2014 22:08:30 GMT -5
Yes, God had a problem. Something doesn't add up. This was before man was created. Did the discovery of sin in the camp inspire him to create man in his image? Beings he could enjoy and have relationship with? I think so. He created a home first. Earth. Did he want those beings with him? Did he want them in paradise later after testing his work? Why were we created so differently and uniquely, individually, diversely, instead of cloned? For his pleasure? Fun? Enjoyment? Bubbles ~ Another question that really comes to my mind in this tale is why did God put Satan (Lucifer) in the Garden in the first place, as it says in Ezekiel 28? What was his purpose in doing so? Surely, an all knowing God must have had some idea what was in Lucifer's mind and what he was capable of doing? In addition to Satan (aka the serpent), there was the Tree of Good and Evil in the center of the garden, which was like have temptation always before your eyes? What exactly was the purpose of that scenario, too? It almost sounds like God wanted man to screw up, because he gave him "free will" just like he gave Lucifer (later Satan) and the angels? Perhaps "free will" is just another name for "human nature," which is always prone to make a mess of things, when given enough time? JMT
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 22:30:45 GMT -5
Yes but wait. If he hadnt created before he wouldnt know the results. I dont understand your last sentence. There isnt anything wrong in paradise. He got rid of the problem. I just realised some thing. He wants to feel loved back. Thats why he requires worship. Angels were created for that purpose. I'm only going by the definition of all knowing. That would infer that he can't fail without knowing he would fail. What was so bad about heaven that Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels decided they had to rebel? That's actually a good number that were not happy. Why do you think that was? Ive never viewed it as there being something wrong or not right in heaven. How could there be anything wrong with a place called paradise. Ive accepted that lucifer had pride arise in his heart at being the most adorned and beautiful the result of that him wanting the worship for himself towards himself and somehow convincing/deceiving other angels he deserved the praise. He was skilled at worship. All knowing knowing all things. If you were inventing creating a being with its own mind how could you bank on knowing those results? Delicate work. I am defending him. He doesnt need that though.
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Post by faune on Nov 21, 2014 22:37:51 GMT -5
I believe Snow brought up the subject in an earlier post a question about the significance of the 1/3 figure and asked if it was found elsewhere in the Bible? Well, it actually is found in Revelation where it describes the 7 trumpets judgments that sound during the tribulation period described below:
www.letusreason.org/proph21.htm
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 22:41:48 GMT -5
This was before man was created. Did the discovery of sin in the camp inspire him to create man in his image? Beings he could enjoy and have relationship with? I think so. He created a home first. Earth. Did he want those beings with him? Did he want them in paradise later after testing his work? Why were we created so differently and uniquely, individually, diversely, instead of cloned? For his pleasure? Fun? Enjoyment? Bubbles ~ Another question that really comes to my mind in this tale is why did God put Satan (Lucifer) in the garden in the first place, as it says in Ezekiel 28? Surely, an all knowing God must have had some idea what was in his mind and what he was capable of doing? In addition to Satan, there was the Tree of Good and Evil in the center of the garden, which was like have temptation always before your eyes? What exactly was the purpose of that scenario, too? It almost sounds like God wanted man to screw up, because he gave him "free will" just like he gave Lucifer (later Satan) and the angels. Perhaps "free will" is just another name for "human nature," which is always prone to make a mess of things, when given enough time? Faune He is known also as the king of tyre. Look at v.12-19 it describes him perfectly and why he fell so far. The tree of good and evil gave knowledge that man didnt require. It corrupted man. We could have done without it. The temptation was the voice of the serpent convincing eve to taste it. He wanted us to screw up? No. He explained the danger. Gave the warning. The warning was ignored through deception. Just like any dad would.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 22:42:59 GMT -5
Somebody brought up in their post about the significance of the 1/3 of heaven being found elsewhere in the Bible. I believe it may have been Snow, but I'm not sure? Well, it actually is found in Revelation in regards to the tribulation period as shown below:
www.letusreason.org/proph21.htm Daniels dream.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 22:44:49 GMT -5
Faune He knew the nature of the serpent yes. He had cursed him.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 22:45:43 GMT -5
Somebody brought up in their post about the significance of the 1/3 of heaven being found elsewhere in the Bible. I believe it may have been Snow, but I'm not sure? Well, it actually is found in Revelation in regards to the tribulation period as shown below:
www.letusreason.org/proph21.htm Thanks faune. it's interesting how much numerical symbolism is in the bible, yet people think it's not pagan.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 22:49:13 GMT -5
We have to remember all these screw ups, rebellions etc. were against an all loving, all knowing and all powerful being. This means he knew everything before it happened, can not 'not' love, and no one can beat him. Yet he was rebelled against and Satan was not imprisoned like he was supposed to be. Both angels and humans 'fell'. Yet he has the power to make creatures that are not imperfect. Maybe he isn't all those things?
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Post by faune on Nov 21, 2014 23:21:51 GMT -5
We have to remember all these screw ups, rebellions etc. were against an all loving, all knowing and all powerful being. This means he knew everything before it happened, can not 'not' love, and no one can beat him. Yet he was rebelled against and Satan was not imprisoned like he was supposed to be. Both angels and humans 'fell'. Yet he has the power to make creatures that are not imperfect. Maybe he isn't all those things? Snow ~ You brought up another point that I noticed myself tonight when researching verses relating to the fallen angels. Many of the verses I quoted earlier said these "fallen angels were in chains in outer darkness reserved for the final judgment, yet we also read of Satan and his demons walking to and fro within the earth seeking out people to deceive and devour, as found in Job 2:2 and I Peter 5:8. Which is correct? Also, I noticed what it said about our spiritual warfare in Ephesians 6:12, which also has me baffled by the same verse shown below? Doesn't this describe exactly what was going on in Heaven before Satan got thrown out?
biblehub.com/job/2-2.htm Job 2:2
biblehub.com/1_peter/5-8.htm I Peter 5:8
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 23:51:03 GMT -5
We have to remember all these screw ups, rebellions etc. were against an all loving, all knowing and all powerful being. This means he knew everything before it happened, can not 'not' love, and no one can beat him. Yet he was rebelled against and Satan was not imprisoned like he was supposed to be. Both angels and humans 'fell'. Yet he has the power to make creatures that are not imperfect. Maybe he isn't all those things? Snow ~ You brought up another point that I noticed myself tonight when researching verses relating to the fallen angels. Many of the verses I quoted earlier said these "fallen angels were in chains in outer darkness reserved for the final judgment, yet we also read of Satan and his demons walking to and fro within the earth seeking people to deceive? Which is correct?
biblehub.com/1_peter/5-8.htm I Peter 5:8
its quite obvious that some were sent to hell right away and others were left alone to their own devices....
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Post by bubbles on Nov 22, 2014 1:16:02 GMT -5
Snow ~ You brought up another point that I noticed myself tonight when researching verses relating to the fallen angels. Many of the verses I quoted earlier said these "fallen angels were in chains in outer darkness reserved for the final judgment, yet we also read of Satan and his demons walking to and fro within the earth seeking people to deceive? Which is correct?
biblehub.com/1_peter/5-8.htm I Peter 5:8
its quite obvious that some were sent to hell right away and others were left alone to their own devices.... I understood it to be two different times of history. From the fall of man until the return of Christs millenial reign. During the millenial reign and then the judgement. Could be wrong.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 22, 2014 2:22:33 GMT -5
In nearly all religions there exist proto-types of good & evil. There has been a dualistic concept of good and evil spirits in nature through out of human history.
Look at all the the religions that ever were & are still! All the differing views of good and evil spirits! Egyptian, Indian, -all of your Christian concepts today!
All the discussion here on this TMB board! As if they were all important & an explanation for what happened & is happening!
The question for me is WHY? What caused us to have to develop & rely so much on such concepts?
Was it simply an attempt to understand why both good & bad things happened? We would have the sun & rain that would cause a good crop and then a freeze or hail storm to destroy it?
Why, in the modern era of science, do people still rely on ancient concepts for such explanations is something I simply can't understand!
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2014 11:49:19 GMT -5
Wally and Nathan. It is anything but obvious as you both state. It is the many contradictions that make the story so impossible to believe.
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2014 11:51:46 GMT -5
In nearly all religions there exist proto-types of good & evil. There has been a dualistic concept of good and evil spirits in nature through out of human history.
Look at all the the religions that ever were & are still! All the differing views of good and evil spirits! Egyptian, Indian, -all of your Christian concepts today!
All the discussion here on this TMB board! As if they were all important & an explanation for what happened & is happening!
The question for me is WHY? What caused us to have to develop & rely so much on such concepts?
Was it simply an attempt to understand why both good & bad things happened? We would have the sun & rain that would cause a good crop and then a freeze or hail storm to destroy it?
Why, in the modern era of science, do people still rely on ancient concepts for such explanations is something I simply can't understand!
It's just the same old thing that people need to explain why bad things happen to good people. Also, humanity isn't often willing to take responsibility for their horrific deeds and seem to need to blame their actions on an already 'evil' being that tempted them. Humanity has to blame someone.
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Post by findingtruth on Nov 22, 2014 14:11:25 GMT -5
Yes, that's a tad sarcastic, but it's not aimed at you my dear bubbles. It's aimed at the story and my frustration with why it is believed when it so obviously (at least to me) doesn't make sense. Does the very fact that we're here living on a place called earth, in the middle of a vast universe, among many possible universes make any sense? Me thinks there are many things we are observing that in our own feeble minds make NO sense. And yet.........here we are, contemplating all that we don't understand on TMB. :-) Sure makes life interesting doesn't it? I do know where you're at with all this, snow. I know this thought has been discussed several times before but still worth thinking about. Is it possible that love and goodness has been labeled "God". And all that is evil and negative been labeled as Lucifer (the devil)? People are creative after all. Some people need a scapegoat to attribute their own behavior to. If they act in a negative way "they devil made them do it". If they act in a positive way "God inspired them". Is it possible that what people label as God and the Devil exist in ALL of us? Hmmm
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Post by faune on Nov 22, 2014 15:14:28 GMT -5
Snow ~ You brought up another point that I noticed myself tonight when researching verses relating to the fallen angels. Many of the verses I quoted earlier said these "fallen angels were in chains in outer darkness reserved for the final judgment, yet we also read of Satan and his demons walking to and fro within the earth seeking people to deceive? Which is correct?
biblehub.com/job/2-2.htm Job 2:2
biblehub.com/1_peter/5-8.htm I Peter 5:8
its quite obvious that some were sent to hell right away and others were left alone to their own devices.... Wally ~ Yes, that would seem apparent, yet that is not what N.T. scriptures described as happening when Satan and his angels got thrown out of the Heaven. In fact, in Job 2:2 and I Peter 5:8, we see an entirely different picture of what these guys were doing here on earth and they weren't chained in outer darkness in Hades until their final judgment either as we read in Jude 1:6 or 2 Peter 2:4? Satan is described as walking to and fro within the earth seeking somebody to devour in both scriptures given above and I'm sure he had some helpers (demons) with him to accomplish his evil goals? Also, we read in the gospels of a number of encounters with demons (aka. fallen angels) by both Jesus and his disciples and Paul later on, so they weren't exactly in chains from all appearances either, but were very active at work? In addition, Lucifer (aka. Satan) was also a fallen angel himself and the "leader of the pack" in revolt in Heaven.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 22, 2014 15:31:53 GMT -5
Yes, that's a tad sarcastic, but it's not aimed at you my dear bubbles. It's aimed at the story and my frustration with why it is believed when it so obviously (at least to me) doesn't make sense. Does the very fact that we're here living on a place called earth, in the middle of a vast universe, among many possible universes make any sense? Me thinks there are many things we are observing that in our own feeble minds make NO sense. And yet.........here we are, contemplating all that we don't understand on TMB. :-) Sure makes life interesting doesn't it? I do know where you're at with all this, snow. I know this thought has been discussed several times before but still worth thinking about . Is it possible that love and goodness has been labeled "God". And all that is evil and negative been labeled as Lucifer (the devil)? People are creative after all. Some people need a scapegoat to attribute their own behavior to. If they act in a negative way "they devil made them do it". If they act in a positive way "God inspired them". Is it possible that what people label as God and the Devil exist in ALL of us? Hmmm
Findingtruth, I believe that you hit it on the nail! Findingtruth. I believe you have found the truth!
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Post by faune on Nov 22, 2014 15:36:42 GMT -5
Does the very fact that we're here living on a place called earth, in the middle of a vast universe, among many possible universes make any sense? Me thinks there are many things we are observing that in our own feeble minds make NO sense. And yet.........here we are, contemplating all that we don't understand on TMB. :-) Sure makes life interesting doesn't it? I do know where you're at with all this, snow. I know this thought has been discussed several times before but still worth thinking about . Is it possible that love and goodness has been labeled "God". And all that is evil and negative been labeled as Lucifer (the devil)? People are creative after all. Some people need a scapegoat to attribute their own behavior to. If they act in a negative way "they devil made them do it". If they act in a positive way "God inspired them". Is it possible that what people label as God and the Devil exist in ALL of us? Hmmm
Findingtruth, I believe that you hit it on the nail! Findingtruth. I believe you have found the truth!
DMG ~ I agree that there is good and evil in all of us and it only takes perhaps the right circumstances to bring either one into viewing by others. I'm also reminded of the favorite catch phase relating to this fact, too, when we are caught misbehaving ~ "the devil made me do it?" Also, in the Garden of Eden, Adam blamed Eve, his wife, when God confronted him over his sin, another favorite one of mine, too. It does seem man needs a scapegoat to keep up appearances even when he screws up royally and "the devil" usually fills the bill?
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Post by faune on Nov 22, 2014 15:48:54 GMT -5
Xna brought up previously on this thread the subject of mass hysteria that can be found demonstrated in some religious circles and another instance I was reminded of dealt with the Virgin Mary apparition sightings that occurred back in 1981. I found this story rather interesting to read in relation to the same.
www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0079a.html
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Post by faune on Nov 22, 2014 15:56:37 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2014 15:59:25 GMT -5
Yes, that's a tad sarcastic, but it's not aimed at you my dear bubbles. It's aimed at the story and my frustration with why it is believed when it so obviously (at least to me) doesn't make sense. Does the very fact that we're here living on a place called earth, in the middle of a vast universe, among many possible universes make any sense? Me thinks there are many things we are observing that in our own feeble minds make NO sense. And yet.........here we are, contemplating all that we don't understand on TMB. :-) Sure makes life interesting doesn't it? I do know where you're at with all this, snow. I know this thought has been discussed several times before but still worth thinking about. Is it possible that love and goodness has been labeled "God". And all that is evil and negative been labeled as Lucifer (the devil)? People are creative after all. Some people need a scapegoat to attribute their own behavior to. If they act in a negative way "they devil made them do it". If they act in a positive way "God inspired them". Is it possible that what people label as God and the Devil exist in ALL of us? Hmmm finding truth, I think exactly that. What we label God or the devil exists in all of us. We are the good we see and the bad we see. For me, there is no one to blame for the bad in the world except ourselves and there is no one to credit with the good in the world except ourselves. People have such a low opinion of themselves that they think they can't possibly be responsible for great goods they do. That is so sad imo. All the good things I have seen done have all been done by people. I have never seen anything done in this world that hasn't been done by a human being. We have the potential for great good and great bad. We make choices everyday which one we will present to the world. The only time I believe there may not be a choice is in the case where the brain is not working as it should in the form of mental illness. But that isn't a sign of the devil at work, but only what happens when the brain is a dysfunctional biological system.
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2014 16:07:51 GMT -5
I found this interesting site a few minutes ago about how to answer objections regarding religious beliefs. I really enjoy these discussions, especially the one that Snow presented here, because it does make you think "outside of the box" for answers. Maybe you will find one to her question at this site, too?
chab123.wordpress.com/answering-common-objections-on-the-college-campus/ Interesting site faune. However, I disagree with Alvin Plantinga that we once knew who the original God was. I don't think we have ever had one definition of God never mind a correct one. Lots to go through there.
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Post by faune on Nov 22, 2014 16:18:43 GMT -5
I found this interesting site a few minutes ago about how to answer objections regarding religious beliefs. I really enjoy these discussions, especially the one that Snow presented here, because it does make you think "outside of the box" for answers. Maybe you will find one to her question at this site, too?
chab123.wordpress.com/answering-common-objections-on-the-college-campus/ Interesting site faune. However, I disagree with Alvin Plantinga that we once knew who the original God was. I don't think we have ever had one definition of God never mind a correct one. Lots to go through there. Snow ~ Perhaps our "mortal compass" is that eternal spark within all of us that speaks of God's Kingdom within us on earth? How we respond to its leadings within has a lot to do with the outcome of things in this lifetime, too. We can either choose positive or negative responses and the results will either be good or evil, based on that choice, too.
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2014 16:33:51 GMT -5
Interesting site faune. However, I disagree with Alvin Plantinga that we once knew who the original God was. I don't think we have ever had one definition of God never mind a correct one. Lots to go through there. Snow ~ Perhaps our "mortal compass" is that eternal spark within all of us that speaks of God's Kingdom within us on earth? How we respond to its leadings within has a lot to do with the outcome of things in this lifetime, too. We can either choose positive or negative responses and the results will either be good or evil, based on that choice, too.
Well I don't know. What I do know for sure is that I choose minute by minute how to respond to the world around me. I have no idea if any part of me lasts forever. How we behave on earth makes life on earth what it is. When we choose to not care about others we see how that effects the world around us. Same if we choose to be loving. We create a good environment to live in or a bad one by the choices we make and what we believe. That's why I think it's so important to question what we believe if it causes division or harm to others. When religions teach division that doesn't help our earth be a good place to live. Following an ancient book in a world where we are becoming more aware of the harm done by some of things in that book, doesn't make sense. It's just continuing to make the same mistakes over and over hoping the world will somehow get better. Embracing exclusive religions and exclusive mindsets isn't helping either.
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Post by faune on Nov 22, 2014 16:48:44 GMT -5
I found this interesting site a few minutes ago about how to answer objections regarding religious beliefs. I really enjoy these discussions, especially the one that Snow presented here, because it does make you think "outside of the box" for answers. Maybe you will find one to her question at this site, too?
chab123.wordpress.com/answering-common-objections-on-the-college-campus/ Interesting site faune. However, I disagree with Alvin Plantinga that we once knew who the original God was. I don't think we have ever had one definition of God never mind a correct one. Lots to go through there. Snow ~ Perhaps Alvin Pantinga's "free will defense" would be an excellent new subject to explore on another thread relating to the same? However, I can see your point of disagreement here and I tend to agree with you on that one. I believe "free will" becomes a catch-all term used to explain away present evil and why God appears to stay uninvolved in correcting people's problems and combating evil in our world today? You do get the feeling that you are responsible for your own fate based upon your individual choices on a daily basis, too.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2014 17:01:49 GMT -5
Interesting site faune. However, I disagree with Alvin Plantinga that we once knew who the original God was. I don't think we have ever had one definition of God never mind a correct one. Lots to go through there. Snow ~ Perhaps Alvin Pantinga's "free will defense" would be an excellent new subject to explore on another thread relating to the same? However, I can see your point of disagreement here and I tend to agree with you on that one. I believe "free will" becomes a catch-all term used to explain away present evil and why God appears to stay uninvolved in correcting people's problems and combating evil in our world today? You do get the feeling that you are responsible for your own fate based upon your individual choices on a daily basis, too.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga
I don't mind this thread going wherever the conversation takes it. It's my thread so go ahead. I tend to wonder just how much is free will when you learn about how the brain functions, mental illness etc. As far as those who like to talk about hell and heaven, free will is a catch all phrase to explain why people can go to hell when we have been told we have an all loving all powerful father. Apparently he is helpless when it comes to preventing us from going to hell though. And, it's never his fault, it's always our fault because of 'free will'. God wants everyone in heaven but somehow he just can't quite get this to work in his favor. As someone mentioned a while back, the devil is winning hands down. Yet no one seems to see something wrong with that picture?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 22, 2014 18:52:43 GMT -5
I found this interesting site a few minutes ago about how to answer objections regarding religious beliefs. I really enjoy these discussions, especially the one that Snow presented here, because it does make you think "outside of the box" for answers. Maybe you will find one to her question at this site, too?
chab123.wordpress.com/answering-common-objections-on-the-college-campus/ Interesting site faune. However, I disagree with Alvin Plantinga that I don't think we have ever had one definition of God never mind a correct one. Lots to go through there. Right, snow. How could we have ever had one definition of god, since those gods were all products of our own minds to start with.
That is why there are so many "gods!"
Each person or group of people made their god or gods in their image!
Instead of continuing to read more & more Christian apologists such as Alvin Plantinga, maybe it would help to investigate on your own the multitude of deities present & past.
After all, Christian apologists only reason for existing is to attempt to vindicate their Christian god!
Just check out for yourself the different gods throughout history. Take a look at the different qualities of each god. Were they a warrior god or a more loving, peaceful god?
Check who created them. What was the qualities of the people who created them? Were the people a warrior race of people or more peaceful & pastoral ?
Check the times that those gods ruled. What kind of god did the people need at the time they lived? (explains the god of war in the OT)
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