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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2014 13:09:59 GMT -5
I've been giving this a bit of thought lately. With Nathan's copious posts about the devil, ET's and fallen angels and demons etc. I got to wondering what that all said about God and heaven. Is the belief of Lucifer and fallen angels an insult to the Judeo/Christian God?
I guess my thought was this. If heaven and God are all about love and absolute bliss all the time, can anyone explain to me why it isn't a contradiction of that to believe that there could have been a powerful angel and a whole bunch of other angels that weren't happy with heaven and the way God ran it?
What was so wrong with heaven or the way God ran heaven that these angels felt so strongly they had to defy that God at the more than likely consequence of losing. Why would they even try if they knew that God was all powerful. They would know in advance that they couldn't win. Or could they have? Also, if heaven is everything people seem to think it is, and God is all loving and runs a blissful world, why would anyone want to change things? If you really think about it, it had to be pretty bad up there for Lucifer and all those angels to even contemplate taking on God. They had to know they couldn't win.
The other side of the belief in Lucifer and angels and a war in heaven, is that it is a pretty major slap or insult at the God you believe in, wouldn't it be? After all, he must have not had a perfect environment. So I would put forth that the belief in the devil is an outright insult towards your God. What do others think?
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2014 14:20:22 GMT -5
I've been giving this a bit of thought lately. With Nathan's copious posts about the devil, ET's and fallen angels and demons etc. I got to wondering what that all said about God and heaven. Is the belief of Lucifer and fallen angels an insult to the Judeo/Christian God? I guess my thought was this. If heaven and God are all about love and absolute bliss all the time, can anyone explain to me why it isn't a contradiction of that to believe that there could have been a powerful angel and a whole bunch of other angels that weren't happy with heaven and the way God ran it? What was so wrong with heaven or the way God ran heaven that these angels felt so strongly they had to defy that God at the more than likely consequence of losing. Why would they even try if they knew that God was all powerful. They would know in advance that they couldn't win. Or could they have? Also, if heaven is everything people seem to think it is, and God is all loving and runs a blissful world, why would anyone want to change things? If you really think about it, it had to be pretty bad up there for Lucifer and all those angels to even contemplate taking on God. They had to know they couldn't win. The other side of the belief in Lucifer and angels and a war in heaven, is that it is a pretty major slap or insult at the God you believe in, wouldn't it be? After all, he must have not had a perfect environment. So I would put forth that the belief in the devil is an outright insult towards your God. What do others think? All of that stuff kind of confuses me. Also, would there be no evil if the devil (and others?) left Heaven? When did all this happen? And if it's a battle for souls between God and the devil, isn't the devil winning? (if you think you have to be of a particular religion to be "saved"). Particularly if you're an exclusive professing person, the devil is winning by an absurd ratio. Furthermore, why does he have access to my heart/brain to "speak deceptively to me" and to "give me sinful thoughts". Shouldn't all the other of legions of good angels also have access then and be bombarding me with many more good thoughts than a few fallen angels? Makes my head hurt. All very valid questions. Yes the devil is definitely winning if we think God is exclusive. It seems to be the Job thing with each of us if the bible is to be believed. It also puts the all powerful concept into question. It's like God doesn't want heaven to be over populated the way the Bible and Christianity have set things up.
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2014 14:26:03 GMT -5
I also heard a worker in meeting say once something to the effect that God could have defeated the devil right away as soon as he left heaven, but he knew the devil couldn't keep Him from doing the work that he wanted to do. Really? So (assuming all evil begins with the devil) God is OK with all the misery and pain the devil would cause people, and just decided not to stop it because he knew he'd still have a tiny percentage of "His people" that could overcome the devil? That was what bothered me the most as a professing kid. A majority of my family did not profess. So that meant that my aunts, uncles, cousins and grandfather were all going to hell according to the workers. That didn't sit well with me, needless to say. But there is really no other way to look at God allowing the devil and fallen angels to have access to his creation. He is allowing pain and misery because it certainly does seem like the good angels don't talk as loud as the fallen ones and the devil is winning huge in this little standoff between him and God. Makes one question the entire story, doesn't it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 18:25:43 GMT -5
I also heard a worker in meeting say once something to the effect that God could have defeated the devil right away as soon as he left heaven, but he knew the devil couldn't keep Him from doing the work that he wanted to do. Really? So (assuming all evil begins with the devil) God is OK with all the misery and pain the devil would cause people, and just decided not to stop it because he knew he'd still have a tiny percentage of "His people" that could overcome the devil? This thought has often entered my mind too. If Almighty God can do any and every thing possible, why has he allowed the devil to keep his power? God could have stripped him of his power, but still have allowed him to exist, obviously that was not in God's plan and purpose, and such knowledge is too wonderful fo us mortals.
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2014 19:01:33 GMT -5
I also heard a worker in meeting say once something to the effect that God could have defeated the devil right away as soon as he left heaven, but he knew the devil couldn't keep Him from doing the work that he wanted to do. Really? So (assuming all evil begins with the devil) God is OK with all the misery and pain the devil would cause people, and just decided not to stop it because he knew he'd still have a tiny percentage of "His people" that could overcome the devil? This thought has often entered my mind too. If Almighty God can do any and every thing possible, why has he allowed the devil to keep his power? God could have stripped him of his power, but still have allowed him to exist, obviously that was not in God's plan and purpose, and such knowledge is too wonderful fo us mortals. God was supposed to have created hell as a prison for Lucifer and his angels. My question is like your's Partaker, how did they ever get loose on earth to create problems? God allowed it? Why would he do that when he created angels to serve humans, which is supposed to be why Lucifer rebelled in the first place. He didn't want to serve humans apparently. When did God's plan change to Lucifer having power to get people sent to hell? Something really doesn't add up at all.
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Post by Gene on Nov 17, 2014 19:02:40 GMT -5
1. Angels and mankind both have free will -- the power to choose what they believe and how they act 2. Originally, there was no passport control or citizenship test to be allowed in Heaven; angels were charter members of that club; created as natural-born citizens of Heaven 3. As it turns out, some of the angels didn't really like the way their Heavenly Homeland was being run, so they left and started a new government in a new land 4. Being a quick study, the Administration of Heaven put a new process in place: No more natural-born citizens; all who would enter these shores must have proper papers, take the oath of citizenship, and prove their virtue, purpose, intent, and swear their undying love for the Supreme Commander of the Nation 5. Recognizing that due to a design quirk, none of His faulty creation could meet these requirements, he shuffled a Joker into the deck: Anyone who drew the Joker Card (aka believing in JC) would be considered to hold a winning hand, no matter what else they held 6. A second fail-safe was this: To prevent any future discontent once having gained Heavenly citizenship, the Almighty introduced the concept of the Preservation of the Saints -- aka "Once Saved, Always Saved." In other words -- once you draw the joker, there's no turning back. You're stuck in heaven, like it or not. No more free will at that point!
Source: "Tuba Dew: The Shades of a Shadeless Movement"
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Post by rational on Nov 17, 2014 19:20:39 GMT -5
1. Angels and mankind both have free will -- the power to choose what they believe and how they act 2. Originally, there was no passport control or citizenship test to be allowed in Heaven; angels were charter members of that club; created as natural-born citizens of Heaven 3. As it turns out, some of the angels didn't really like the way their Heavenly Homeland was being run, so they left and started a new government in a new land 4. Being a quick study, the Administration of Heaven put a new process in place: No more natural-born citizens; all who would enter these shores must have proper papers, take the oath of citizenship, and prove their virtue, purpose, intent, and swear their undying love for the Supreme Commander of the Nation 5. Recognizing that due to a design quirk, none of His faulty creation could meet these requirements, he shuffled a Joker into the deck: Anyone who drew the Joker Card (aka believing in JC) would be considered to hold a winning hand, no matter what else they held 6. A second fail-safe was this: To prevent any future discontent once having gained Heavenly citizenship, the Almighty introduced the concept of the Preservation of the Saints -- aka "Once Saved, Always Saved." In other words -- once you draw the joker, there's no turning back. You're stuck in heaven, like it or not. No more free will at that point! The narrative arcs of the various books all build the devil story arc to the stunning climax in Revelations.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 17, 2014 19:52:02 GMT -5
All of that stuff kind of confuses me. Also, would there be no evil if the devil (and others?) left Heaven? When did all this happen? And if it's a battle for souls between God and the devil, isn't the devil winning? (if you think you have to be of a particular religion to be "saved"). Particularly if you're an exclusive professing person, the devil is winning by an absurd ratio. Furthermore, why does he have access to my heart/brain to "speak deceptively to me" and to "give me sinful thoughts". Shouldn't all the other of legions of good angels also have access then and be bombarding me with many more good thoughts than a few fallen angels? Makes my head hurt. Yes, that is what happens when one tries to make sense out religious ideas, -makes one's head hurt.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 17, 2014 20:11:59 GMT -5
I also heard a worker in meeting say once something to the effect that God could have defeated the devil right away as soon as he left heaven, but he knew the devil couldn't keep Him from doing the work that he wanted to do. Really? So (assuming all evil begins with the devil) God is OK with all the misery and pain the devil would cause people, and just decided not to stop it because he knew he'd still have a tiny percentage of "His people" that could overcome the devil? This thought has often entered my mind too. If Almighty God can do any and every thing possible, why has he allowed the devil to keep his power? God could have stripped him of his power, but still have allowed him to exist, obviously that was not in God's plan and purpose, and such knowledge is too wonderful for us mortals. "too wonderful for us mortals?
Wonderful isn't exactly the word that I would use.
If that was 'God's plan and purpose,' it sounds more sadistic than wonderful.
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2014 20:23:57 GMT -5
1. Angels and mankind both have free will -- the power to choose what they believe and how they act 2. Originally, there was no passport control or citizenship test to be allowed in Heaven; angels were charter members of that club; created as natural-born citizens of Heaven 3. As it turns out, some of the angels didn't really like the way their Heavenly Homeland was being run, so they left and started a new government in a new land 4. Being a quick study, the Administration of Heaven put a new process in place: No more natural-born citizens; all who would enter these shores must have proper papers, take the oath of citizenship, and prove their virtue, purpose, intent, and swear their undying love for the Supreme Commander of the Nation 5. Recognizing that due to a design quirk, none of His faulty creation could meet these requirements, he shuffled a Joker into the deck: Anyone who drew the Joker Card (aka believing in JC) would be considered to hold a winning hand, no matter what else they held 6. A second fail-safe was this: To prevent any future discontent once having gained Heavenly citizenship, the Almighty introduced the concept of the Preservation of the Saints -- aka "Once Saved, Always Saved." In other words -- once you draw the joker, there's no turning back. You're stuck in heaven, like it or not. No more free will at that point! Source: "Tuba Dew: The Shades of a Shadeless Movement"I just knew I could count on you to explain it so clearly. Do you have a link to your source... lol
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Post by emy on Nov 17, 2014 20:28:28 GMT -5
This thought has often entered my mind too. If Almighty God can do any and every thing possible, why has he allowed the devil to keep his power? God could have stripped him of his power, but still have allowed him to exist, obviously that was not in God's plan and purpose, and such knowledge is too wonderful for us mortals. "too wonderful for us mortals?
Wonderful isn't exactly the word that I would use.
If that was 'God's plan and purpose,' it sounds more sadistic than wonderful.
I think he meant something like this: Psalm 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Proverbs 30:18 There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not:
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2014 20:31:21 GMT -5
Well for me the whole story doesn't make much sense. It seems to boil down to either God is not all powerful, and he can't control the devil and his minions, or he is all powerful but thinks it's okay to just let them loose to cause havoc. Since it is a fairly serious choice humans need to make it really doesn't seem to me that God really cares. First of all the prison/hell was made just for Lucifer and his comrades but somehow he got loose so he could drag humans down with him. Seems like God gave the devil a 'get out of jail free card' and when we have a disastrous roll of the dice, we get the 'go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars' card.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 17, 2014 22:05:31 GMT -5
"too wonderful for us mortals?
Wonderful isn't exactly the word that I would use.
If that was 'God's plan and purpose,' it sounds more sadistic than wonderful.
I think he meant something like this: Psalm 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Proverbs 30:18 There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not: Thanks Emy.
I figured that it was due to verses such as those to which that Partaker was referring.
However, I can't agree with the Psalmist. It is NOT "too wonderful or too lofty to understand."
What if WE humans were to act in the same way as inferred by this statement: "I also heard a worker in meeting say once something to the effect that God could have defeated the devil right away as soon as he left heaven, but he knew the devil couldn't keep Him from doing the work that he wanted to do." I don't think we could pawn it off as being 'wonderful'. We would just be acting sadistically.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 17, 2014 22:40:08 GMT -5
Well for me the whole story doesn't make much sense. It seems to boil down to either God is not all powerful, and he can't control the devil and his minions, or he is all powerful but thinks it's okay to just let them loose to cause havoc. Since it is a fairly serious choice humans need to make it really doesn't seem to me that God really cares. First of all the prison/hell was made just for Lucifer and his comrades but somehow he got loose so he could drag humans down with him. Seems like God gave the devil a 'get out of jail free card' and when we have a disastrous roll of the dice, we get the 'go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars' card. Right. The story doesn't make sense.
How could a god really be concerned about us, yet let loose a devil to harass us?
When you get right down to the nub of the story, it really is just another attempt by people to try & understand why certain events happen.
That is what religion is about. Stories that people tell themselves and have told themselves, from the time they begin to ask "why" certain things happened..
That is the reason that we have had such a multitude of "gods" & "sacred" beliefs!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 23:41:09 GMT -5
I've been giving this a bit of thought lately. With Nathan's copious posts about the devil, ET's and fallen angels and demons etc. I got to wondering what that all said about God and heaven. Is the belief of Lucifer and fallen angels an insult to the Judeo/Christian God? I guess my thought was this. If heaven and God are all about love and absolute bliss all the time, can anyone explain to me why it isn't a contradiction of that to believe that there could have been a powerful angel and a whole bunch of other angels that weren't happy with heaven and the way God ran it? What was so wrong with heaven or the way God ran heaven that these angels felt so strongly they had to defy that God at the more than likely consequence of losing. Why would they even try if they knew that God was all powerful. They would know in advance that they couldn't win. Or could they have? Also, if heaven is everything people seem to think it is, and God is all loving and runs a blissful world, why would anyone want to change things? If you really think about it, it had to be pretty bad up there for Lucifer and all those angels to even contemplate taking on God. They had to know they couldn't win. The other side of the belief in Lucifer and angels and a war in heaven, is that it is a pretty major slap or insult at the God you believe in, wouldn't it be? After all, he must have not had a perfect environment. So I would put forth that the belief in the devil is an outright insult towards your God. What do others think? insult to believe in him? no satan/devil/lucifer/dragon/serpent is mentioned 100+ times in the bible i see no reluctance in God to let us know about him. insult that he rebelled? sure i'm most positive that God blew a gasket when satan rebelled.
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 0:16:14 GMT -5
1. Angels and mankind both have free will -- the power to choose what they believe and how they act 2. Originally, there was no passport control or citizenship test to be allowed in Heaven; angels were charter members of that club; created as natural-born citizens of Heaven 3. As it turns out, some of the angels didn't really like the way their Heavenly Homeland was being run, so they left and started a new government in a new land 4. Being a quick study, the Administration of Heaven put a new process in place: No more natural-born citizens; all who would enter these shores must have proper papers, take the oath of citizenship, and prove their virtue, purpose, intent, and swear their undying love for the Supreme Commander of the Nation 5. Recognizing that due to a design quirk, none of His faulty creation could meet these requirements, he shuffled a Joker into the deck: Anyone who drew the Joker Card (aka believing in JC) would be considered to hold a winning hand, no matter what else they held 6. A second fail-safe was this: To prevent any future discontent once having gained Heavenly citizenship, the Almighty introduced the concept of the Preservation of the Saints -- aka "Once Saved, Always Saved." In other words -- once you draw the joker, there's no turning back. You're stuck in heaven, like it or not. No more free will at that point! Source: "Tuba Dew: The Shades of a Shadeless Movement" Gene ~ I just noticed your source as "Tuba Dew" ~ the leader of the band. LOL
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 18, 2014 0:55:06 GMT -5
I've been giving this a bit of thought lately. With Nathan's copious posts about the devil, ET's and fallen angels and demons etc. I got to wondering what that all said about God and heaven. Is the belief of Lucifer and fallen angels an insult to the Judeo/Christian God? I guess my thought was this. If heaven and God are all about love and absolute bliss all the time, can anyone explain to me why it isn't a contradiction of that to believe that there could have been a powerful angel and a whole bunch of other angels that weren't happy with heaven and the way God ran it? What was so wrong with heaven or the way God ran heaven that these angels felt so strongly they had to defy that God at the more than likely consequence of losing. Why would they even try if they knew that God was all powerful. They would know in advance that they couldn't win. Or could they have? Also, if heaven is everything people seem to think it is, and God is all loving and runs a blissful world, why would anyone want to change things? If you really think about it, it had to be pretty bad up there for Lucifer and all those angels to even contemplate taking on God. They had to know they couldn't win. The other side of the belief in Lucifer and angels and a war in heaven, is that it is a pretty major slap or insult at the God you believe in, wouldn't it be? After all, he must have not had a perfect environment. So I would put forth that the belief in the devil is an outright insult towards your God. What do others think? insult to believe in him? no satan/devil/lucifer/dragon/serpent is mentioned 100+ times in the bible i see no reluctance in God to let us know about him. insult that he rebelled? sure i'm most positive that God blew a gasket when satan rebelled. Yep, I'm also sure, "that God blew a gasket when Satan rebelled." No doubt the is what early man believed when the local volcano erupted! God had "blown a gasket!"
As a result early man believed that THEY had let Satan beguile them & they had to sacrifice their first born son by throwing him into the volcano to appease "GOD!"
There is whole "blood sacrifice" part of religion in a nut shell; -including Christianity's God, the father, sacrificing his "only begotten son" to save mankind!
Strange, the things that people continue to believe that are just different takes on an old motif.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 5:11:39 GMT -5
"too wonderful for us mortals?
Wonderful isn't exactly the word that I would use.
If that was 'God's plan and purpose,' it sounds more sadistic than wonderful.
I think he meant something like this: Psalm 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Proverbs 30:18 There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not:Thank you emy, spot on, you are dependable.
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 10:43:31 GMT -5
I've been giving this a bit of thought lately. With Nathan's copious posts about the devil, ET's and fallen angels and demons etc. I got to wondering what that all said about God and heaven. Is the belief of Lucifer and fallen angels an insult to the Judeo/Christian God? I guess my thought was this. If heaven and God are all about love and absolute bliss all the time, can anyone explain to me why it isn't a contradiction of that to believe that there could have been a powerful angel and a whole bunch of other angels that weren't happy with heaven and the way God ran it? What was so wrong with heaven or the way God ran heaven that these angels felt so strongly they had to defy that God at the more than likely consequence of losing. Why would they even try if they knew that God was all powerful. They would know in advance that they couldn't win. Or could they have? Also, if heaven is everything people seem to think it is, and God is all loving and runs a blissful world, why would anyone want to change things? If you really think about it, it had to be pretty bad up there for Lucifer and all those angels to even contemplate taking on God. They had to know they couldn't win. The other side of the belief in Lucifer and angels and a war in heaven, is that it is a pretty major slap or insult at the God you believe in, wouldn't it be? After all, he must have not had a perfect environment. So I would put forth that the belief in the devil is an outright insult towards your God. What do others think? insult to believe in him? no satan/devil/lucifer/dragon/serpent is mentioned 100+ times in the bible i see no reluctance in God to let us know about him. insult that he rebelled? sure i'm most positive that God blew a gasket when satan rebelled. I think you missed the whole point of the post wally. Don't be defensive, just think about it. Have you ever wondered why Lucifer would feel inclined to defy God and 1/3 of God's angels on top of that? What was so bad? I said nothing about believing in God. I asked why the initial rebellion. Look past your defensive stance for a moment and consider the questions. You bring up a whole new question. If you're positive God blew a gasket when satan rebelled then what kind of a being is God? If he made a prison/hell for satan and his angels, why isn't satan there? Why did God allow satan and his angels to wreak havoc on humans? Does that sound like a loving being to you? Something doesn't add up does it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 12:28:05 GMT -5
insult to believe in him? no satan/devil/lucifer/dragon/serpent is mentioned 100+ times in the bible i see no reluctance in God to let us know about him. insult that he rebelled? sure i'm most positive that God blew a gasket when satan rebelled. I think you missed the whole point of the post wally. Don't be defensive, just think about it. Have you ever wondered why Lucifer would feel inclined to defy God and 1/3 of God's angels on top of that? What was so bad? I said nothing about believing in God. I asked why the initial rebellion. Look past your defensive stance for a moment and consider the questions. You bring up a whole new question. If you're positive God blew a gasket when satan rebelled then what kind of a being is God? If he made a prison/hell for satan and his angels, why isn't satan there? Why did God allow satan and his angels to wreak havoc on humans? Does that sound like a loving being to you? Something doesn't add up does it. well the rumor is that satan didn't like it when God created human kind there is also this verse: Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. we know God can be a vengeful God when offended... i'm not finding in scripture where he made hell a prison just for satan and his angels i do remember vaugely a verse describing them being cast down to earth. now we're talking free will again as to why they are wreaking havoc on the masses... why God allows this shall remain a mystery until judgment day but i trust he has his reasons...
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 13:28:19 GMT -5
Right. The story doesn't make sense.
How could a god really be concerned about us, yet let loose a devil to harass us?
When you get right down to the nub of the story, it really is just another attempt by people to try & understand why certain events happen.
That is what religion is about. Stories that people tell themselves and have told themselves, from the time they begin to ask "why" certain things happened..
That is the reason that we have had such a multitude of "gods" & "sacred" beliefs! Right, I basically agree with this. I really have no "sacred" or "religious" beliefs anymore. But I still choose to have some faith and hope that there is a God who cares about his creation, and will comfort those who mourn, help the helpless, etc. Obviously some people never get any of that help during their lives, so maybe it has to occur in an afterlife according to my beliefs. I don't really know. But much the same way that it's too depressing for me to go along with the professing belief of "everyone burns in hell forever except us", it's also too depressing for me to believe that those who spend their lives tormented by war, starvation, illness, tragedy, or evildoers have only this miserable (for them) life to experience and that's it. Maybe that's reality, but my sad heart for those people chooses to believe that there will be something better for them, somehow. If this life is all I have, I'm OK with it. I've had a good run, and the future looks promising. But there's millions of people to which life just isn't fair, and in fact is down right cruel. My need to feel that there is something better ahead for them is one reason I believe in God (though not necessarily much about religion). Thank you for this post. I understand it and it's how I felt a lot of the time too. I have come to some sort of peace with 'this is all there is', but it's an uneasy one sometimes for the reasons you point out. There are so many people in this world that will have nothing but misery in their lives. I have had a good life on the other hand. I personally hope there is nothing after this life as I can't imagine an eternity of anything really. Even a good thing would get old in the context of 'forever'. But my heart goes out to those who just suffer. That is why I feel it is so important for humanity to smarten up and realize that the only way we can make this life a good one for all as much as possible is to end wars, share wealth and extend our definition of family to all of humanity. So much of our suffering and the suffering of animals on earth is because of us and our beliefs and mindsets. I have as much pain in my heart for animals that are treated inhumanely by us too. I understand and don't have a problem with hunting for food by both humans and animals, but I would like to see some of the respect the Native cultures had when they killed an animal. I would also like to see them treated right. There is so much suffering that could be extinguished in this world for both humans and animals if we just changed how we view each other. Religions tend to divide us and the more fanatic among them tend to kill in their God's name. We have seen this over and over throughout the centuries. But it isn't just religions, it's the mindset behind what formed religions in the first place. We need to quit believing there is nothing we can do now and that if they worship God they will finally be okay in the afterlife. I think we need to live like there is no afterlife, that this is all we have and how can we create as much of a paradise on earth, right now, instead of waiting for our lives to end to receive good, or live well. There is no promise there is anything after death. All we know for sure is that we exist right now. It's important to change what we are living with right now.
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 13:43:58 GMT -5
I think you missed the whole point of the post wally. Don't be defensive, just think about it. Have you ever wondered why Lucifer would feel inclined to defy God and 1/3 of God's angels on top of that? What was so bad? I said nothing about believing in God. I asked why the initial rebellion. Look past your defensive stance for a moment and consider the questions. You bring up a whole new question. If you're positive God blew a gasket when satan rebelled then what kind of a being is God? If he made a prison/hell for satan and his angels, why isn't satan there? Why did God allow satan and his angels to wreak havoc on humans? Does that sound like a loving being to you? Something doesn't add up does it. well the rumor is that satan didn't like it when God created human kind there is also this verse: Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. we know God can be a vengeful God when offended... i'm not finding in scripture where he made hell a prison just for satan and his angels i do remember vaugely a verse describing them being cast down to earth. now we're talking free will again as to why they are wreaking havoc on the masses... why God allows this shall remain a mystery until judgment day but i trust he has his reasons... thank you Wally. Appreciate the input. I got the information about God creating hell for lucifer and is angels from Catholic doctrine. It may not be biblical, but I seem to recall that hell was supposed to be meant for satan and the fallen angels. I just don't know when that changed, if it did, to lucifer not being imprisoned until later and being loosed on earth instead. But that is definitely the story line now. Satan is blamed for everything bad that happens. In truth, we are the reason for the things that happen that cause us to suffer. Knowing this, we also know that we have it in our power to change who we are and start eliminating as much suffering as possible. I think the initial message of all religions was to make people understand that love of each other, compassion and empathy and helping where we see need are the things that humans need to do. They all teach love, compassion and aide. Somewhere along the line religions became more about the afterlife. Maybe because this life was so hard and so much suffering. Maybe they tried to motivate people to be more loving now with thinking they could offer a reward or a punishment in eternity after death. I think the initial reasons were to get people to act more humanely so this life wouldn't be full of so much suffering. Much of it is beyond our control, disease, birth deformities accidents etc., but there is so much more we could do to make this life more beautiful. I don't like the concept that God is a vengeful being. I think it gives us too much justification for ourselves being vengeful. I do understand how it became the story line though. We can't help but wonder about an all powerful, all loving being and not see the contradiction in that because how could an all powerful and all loving being ever allow suffering? So we had to bring in a story about an evil rebellious being that causes all of that. But that wasn't quite believable either because he was supposed to be all powerful so how could anything win against him. Enters, free will. But it's all a story as far as I can see. A story that relieves humanity of being responsible for each other and the suffering.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 18, 2014 14:26:18 GMT -5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't like the concept that God is a vengeful being. I think it gives us too much justification for ourselves being vengeful. I do understand how it became the story line though. We can't help but wonder about an all powerful, all loving being and not see the contradiction in that because how could an all powerful and all loving being ever allow suffering? So we had to bring in a story about an evil rebellious being that causes all of that. But that wasn't quite believable either because he was supposed to be all powerful so how could anything win against him. Enters, free will. But it's all a story as far as I can see. A story that relieves humanity of being responsible for each other and the suffering. Thank you, snow!
You explain it very well.
Once mankind started a story of why certain things happened, when a part didn't agree, we just kept on building another layer to the story!
No wonder it gets so convoluted!
I had never thought of it quite like that!
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 14:39:53 GMT -5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't like the concept that God is a vengeful being. I think it gives us too much justification for ourselves being vengeful. I do understand how it became the story line though. We can't help but wonder about an all powerful, all loving being and not see the contradiction in that because how could an all powerful and all loving being ever allow suffering? So we had to bring in a story about an evil rebellious being that causes all of that. But that wasn't quite believable either because he was supposed to be all powerful so how could anything win against him. Enters, free will. But it's all a story as far as I can see. A story that relieves humanity of being responsible for each other and the suffering. Thank you, snow!
You explain it very well.
Once mankind started a story of why certain things happened, when a part didn't agree, we just kept on building another layer to the story!
No wonder it gets so convoluted!
I had never thought of it quite like that!
In many ways, we would have been better off not giving 'God' (what we didn't understand) an all powerful label. If the being was just something to be appeased, in other words more powerful than us, then we wouldn't have so much cognitive dissonance. He would just be a more powerful being than us but not 'all powerful'. If we hadn't labelled it all loving we could have accepted that anything that happened, good or bad, was due to this being that was more powerful than us. We may have been subject to it's whims or moods, but again, no cognitive dissonance. When we decided this being was all powerful and all loving, then we had to start the other stories to explain suffering. Because suffering will always be with us in the forms beyond our control. But we wanted the comfort of thinking there was someone looking out for us so the current version of God was born. Looking at the world around us though, we see too much evidence of not 'being taken care of'. So we have to blame someone other than ourselves and we can't blame this new version of God. What to do?
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 15:16:05 GMT -5
thank you Wally. Appreciate the input. I got the information about God creating hell for lucifer and is angels from Catholic doctrine. It may not be biblical, but I seem to recall that hell was supposed to be meant for satan and the fallen angels. I just don't know when that changed, if it did, to lucifer not being imprisoned until later and being loosed on earth instead. But that is definitely the story line now. Satan is blamed for everything bad that happens. In truth, we are the reason for the things that happen that cause us to suffer. Knowing this, we also know that we have it in our power to change who we are and start eliminating as much suffering as possible. I think the initial message of all religions was to make people understand that love of each other, compassion and empathy and helping where we see need are the things that humans need to do. They all teach love, compassion and aide. Somewhere along the line religions became more about the afterlife. Maybe because this life was so hard and so much suffering. Maybe they tried to motivate people to be more loving now with thinking they could offer a reward or a punishment in eternity after death. I think the initial reasons were to get people to act more humanely so this life wouldn't be full of so much suffering. Much of it is beyond our control, disease, birth deformities accidents etc., but there is so much more we could do to make this life more beautiful. I don't like the concept that God is a vengeful being. I think it gives us too much justification for ourselves being vengeful. I do understand how it became the story line though. We can't help but wonder about an all powerful, all loving being and not see the contradiction in that because how could an all powerful and all loving being ever allow suffering? So we had to bring in a story about an evil rebellious being that causes all of that. But that wasn't quite believable either because he was supposed to be all powerful so how could anything win against him. Enters, free will. But it's all a story as far as I can see. A story that relieves humanity of being responsible for each other and the suffering. Hebrews 10:30-31 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.Verses like these are the reason I view the Bible as a dangerous book right along with the Quran because of this stuff about a vengeful God. I do not understand why more people don't see the danger in believing in an all powerful being as vengeful. How it colors how people view each other and how they live in this world. I don't believe what is said in the bible is conducive to a loving mindset. Fear of punishment by this being is not a good thing. It will make us believe that we have reason to kill others to protect a way of life we believe we need to have in order to get our eternal reward for eg. Part of the issue with Islam fundamentalists is their fear that the world is going to take away their right to live as they think their religion requires. So they kill to protect that. Christianity as done that too. A certain dogma was important and people that disagreed had to die to preserve those beliefs. When people ignore the downside of these books, because they like to focus only on the good things in them, we forget there is still another group who claim to be the same religion as you that are taking these verses to a whole different level. Not a good thing for peace or reduction in suffering for humanity.
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 15:39:13 GMT -5
Verses like these are the reason I view the Bible as a dangerous book right along with the Quran because of this stuff about a vengeful God. I do not understand why more people don't see the danger in believing in an all powerful being as vengeful. How it colors how people view each other and how they live in this world. I don't believe what is said in the bible is conducive to a loving mindset. Fear of punishment by this being is not a good thing. It will make us believe that we have reason to kill others to protect a way of life we believe we need to have in order to get our eternal reward for eg. Part of the issue with Islam fundamentalists is their fear that the world is going to take away their right to live as they think their religion requires. So they kill to protect that. Christianity as done that too. A certain dogma was important and people that disagreed had to die to preserve those beliefs. When people ignore the downside of these books, because they like to focus only on the good things in them, we forget there is still another group who claim to be the same religion as you that are taking these verses to a whole different level. Not a good thing for peace or reduction in suffering for humanity. Our Lord God Almighty if fair and just. God the Father offers ETERNAL life to those who believe in His Son but those who refuse Jesus atonement for their sins, then they will have to pay for their own sins which is second death to cast in the lake of fire for eternity.
Jesus said in John 3:15-21 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
~~ This is God Eternal kingdom, these are his terms we must follow in order to be part of His eternal Family in heaven. If people don't like it, then they will must face God and be accountable and pay for their own sins after this life is over and in the day of Judgment.
If there is NO eternal punishment for sinners then Jesus died for humanity is in vain! Why, would Jesus go through all the suffering, taste of death for us if all sinners annihilated after the Final judgment day. Jesus wanted to spare all from going to that Eternal of Hell fire and brimstone.
I don't believe that for a minute. Also Nathan, nothing any human can do justifies eternal punishment. Nothing. Why would you believe this kind of stuff? Think about it.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 18, 2014 16:14:21 GMT -5
Christ went into hades and took all the captives with him to heaven. Looks like hades has closed shop which seems to me like heaven is where everyone is headed first stop.
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 16:20:00 GMT -5
Christ went into hades and took all the captives with him to heaven. Looks like hades has closed shop which seems to me like heaven is where everyone is headed first stop. Too many people not only believe in people going to hell, but they also think it's somehow justified. If you believe the bible, I can understand how you might get that impression. My family definitely believe in hell and that anyone who isn't the right kind of Christian will be going there. I find it harder to understand how those who read the bible and believe in the Christian God would not believe in hell actually. I don't agree with it, and I'm glad you don't either, but I'm curious how you came to that conclusion bubbles.
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