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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 3:09:58 GMT -5
As I see it, an Atheist is one who believes in miracles. The major one being that the world created itself - in violation of cause and effect. Don't you believe in miracles Bert ? In science there is, strictly speaking, no such thing as a "miracle." It has been calculated that a person can vanish off the Earth, walk on the surface of the sun and then return to Earth. Probability of this happening is one to the hundredth to the hundreth, ie 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
But it wouldn't be a miracle.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 8, 2014 3:26:09 GMT -5
Ok,
What "caused" the universe, multi-verse, everything that is?
Two strands of thought 1 - an external agent 2 - it pulled itself up by the bootstraps, in a time when there was no time, using energy when there was no energy, in a space where there was no space and all by physical laws when there were no laws. Ok, bert.
Which one do you believe it was?
# 1 or #2 ?
(I've got to get to bed now, I check with you in the morning.)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 3:26:56 GMT -5
#1.
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Post by matisse on Nov 8, 2014 6:25:40 GMT -5
I have shown you people who had one on one contact with various ETs. You're welcome to listen to their stories about their encounter experiences. Believe it or NOT its up to the readers. There are too many information to present in one post, so I will reveal little by little of 60 yrs of experiences from many people through the years.
So, what kind of evidences do you need for you to believe, Matisse?
Verifiable, repeatable....not anecdotal, not hearsay, not a product of the human imagination. You have not come close. I do not trust your sources. Please do not bother "revealing" anything for my sake, Nathan.
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Post by matisse on Nov 8, 2014 7:42:08 GMT -5
Verifiable, repeatable....not anecdotal, not hearsay, not a product of the human imagination. You have not come close. I do not trust your sources. Please do not bother "revealing" anything for my sake, Nathan. Ok, no problem I will not but I hope you don't mind when I share it with others. If what I share with others bother you, then you can skip reading my posts. You don't need to reply to any of my posts. Thanks.Your posts don't bother me, Nathan. You seem like a nice guy, and I know you mean well.
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Post by rational on Nov 8, 2014 9:36:46 GMT -5
~ leefryer Here is where I am today on this... Both good and evil exist, but it a human condition. Mankind has the capacity for great good and great evil. The question of what is good and evil is a human question alone. If you add god(s), you prevent the good, and increase the evil. Good should be supported and evil opposed. War should be the last resort for how to oppose evil. I see there are absolute ethics (for example, rape is always evil, CSA is always evil, slavery is always evil, ...) but much of what is good and evil can be situational. The world is not black and white, & so each case has to be considered one at a time to yield the most good and the least evil. JMT actually i would think an atheist would be for survival of the fittest thats neither good nor evil right?.... Actually, that is the way it works. If the chances of survival by conforming to what you consider 'good' are better than conforming to what you consider 'bad' then 'good' wins! Is the female spider that kills the male after mating good or bad? Maybe it is just a matter of the male upping his game! Maybe the disappointment was just too much to handle!
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Post by Lee on Nov 8, 2014 9:38:31 GMT -5
Don't you believe in miracles Bert ? In science there is, strictly speaking, no such thing as a "miracle." It has been calculated that a person can vanish off the Earth, walk on the surface of the sun and then return to Earth. Probability of this happening is one to the hundredth to the hundreth, ie 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
But it wouldn't be a miracle.That's right. While we atheists hold firmly to the doctrine of philosophical naturalism to describe the working universe, when we refer its origin we always defer to our doctrine of philosophical un-naturalism, that is that the universe appeared out of nothing. Poof, bang, magic! One has to be resourceful as an empirically-contained scientist, uh ... flexible, uh .... elastic. Uh .... what was science again?
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Post by rational on Nov 8, 2014 9:50:52 GMT -5
In science there is, strictly speaking, no such thing as a "miracle." It has been calculated that a person can vanish off the Earth, walk on the surface of the sun and then return to Earth. Probability of this happening is one to the hundredth to the hundreth, ie 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
But it wouldn't be a miracle. I think there may be some misleading words here! If it did it would indeed be classified as a miracle if the cause was ascribed to a supernatural cause. Otherwise it would just be an extraordinary event in the physical world that is not yet understood. 1,000 years ago an iPad might have been considered a miracle. Or a device that no one could explain. Today some consider it a miracle that people continue to purchase Apple products!
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Post by snow on Nov 8, 2014 11:54:00 GMT -5
First of all, of course, the resurrection of Jesus is NOT a historical fact.
The gospels, the book of Acts, the apostles epistles, are NOT actual history books any more that the Vedas are history books. I'm sure that you yourself wouldn't believe that the Vedas are history books.
(Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said, such as that I, "say and believe with all of your heart that Jesus resurrection was a MYTH." You are always taking a person' post & trying to summarize what they! )
I have also have heard a lot of voices in MY dreams. That doesn't mean that they are true.
I also thought as you do for at least for 40 yrs., that God "touched/visited" me in my life experiences. The mind is a wonderful thing & can conjure up a lot of concepts of which many simply aren't aren't true when looked at with rational, critical thought.
We can tell ourselves a lot of stories, especially when we want to believe something.
Sorry, dmg.... your dreams and voices which you heard are NOT the same as mine for sure. We can tell the results in your life and mine like night and day. The dreams which I have received increase my Faith in God whom I serve, yours are NOT.How do you justify saying your dreams are of more value and make you a better person than dmg?
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Post by snow on Nov 8, 2014 11:58:03 GMT -5
Why does anyone need a 'First Cause' to explain the Universe? We have been told energy cannot be created nor destroyed, just transformed. If that is true, it has always existed in various ways. We don't need a God in the equation at all. Gods just muddy the waters because then we have to figure out which God of thousands was the creator of the universe.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 13:21:56 GMT -5
actually i would think an atheist would be for survival of the fittest thats neither good nor evil right?.... You, as well as many others, still cannot get the correct definition of "Atheist."
Atheism is often defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
NOT a belief, simply a lack of belief in any god! End. Period.
Saying that, tell me how could an atheist be for OR against survival of the fittest? atheist believe in evolution one of evolutions precepts is survival of the fittest quite simple really no god involved at all...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 13:37:50 GMT -5
So atheists believe in the laws of the jungle also? Wow! I didn't know that.
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Post by matisse on Nov 8, 2014 14:02:50 GMT -5
You, as well as many others, still cannot get the correct definition of "Atheist."
Atheism is often defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
NOT a belief, simply a lack of belief in any god! End. Period.
Saying that, tell me how could an atheist be for OR against survival of the fittest? atheist believe in evolution one of evolutions precepts is survival of the fittest quite simple really no god involved at all... Many Christians accept evolution as the process that produced the variety of life forms found on earth. If you've been keeping up, you will know that even the Pope has expressed his support of evolution.
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Post by matisse on Nov 8, 2014 14:09:11 GMT -5
You, as well as many others, still cannot get the correct definition of "Atheist."
Atheism is often defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
NOT a belief, simply a lack of belief in any god! End. Period.
Saying that, tell me how could an atheist be for OR against survival of the fittest? atheist believe in evolution one of evolutions precepts is survival of the fittest quite simple really no god involved at all... Funny you should say this, wally, as you are the one with a sniper reference in your signature line and a link to a survival blog in your profile!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 14:26:08 GMT -5
atheist believe in evolution one of evolutions precepts is survival of the fittest quite simple really no god involved at all... Funny you should say this, wally, as you are the one with a sniper reference in your signature line and a link to a survival blog in your profile! if you'll read the survivalblog you'll find alot of christian references there nothing about survival of the fittest though although i suppose a case could be made if your prepare for the worst your the fittest...as to the sniper reference it was my lame attempt at a military joke...
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Post by What Hat on Nov 8, 2014 14:28:46 GMT -5
In science there is, strictly speaking, no such thing as a "miracle." It has been calculated that a person can vanish off the Earth, walk on the surface of the sun and then return to Earth. Probability of this happening is one to the hundredth to the hundreth, ie 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
But it wouldn't be a miracle. I think there may be some misleading words here! If it did it would indeed be classified as a miracle if the cause was ascribed to a supernatural cause. Otherwise it would just be an extraordinary event in the physical world that is not yet understood. 1,000 years ago an iPad might have been considered a miracle. Or a device that no one could explain. Today some consider it a miracle that people continue to purchase Apple products! 1 to the hundredth to the hundredth is 1. If you meant 10 to the hundredth to the hundredth, that would be 1 with 10,000 zeroes. You might be a few short but I haven't counted.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 14:30:08 GMT -5
atheist believe in evolution one of evolutions precepts is survival of the fittest quite simple really no god involved at all... Many Christians accept evolution as the process that produced the variety of life forms found on earth. If you've been keeping up, you will know that even the Pope has expressed his support of evolution. yes i've heard of his slip up and was sadly disappointed. it might suprise you but i believe in evolution/adaptation AFTER the flood...
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Post by matisse on Nov 8, 2014 14:51:30 GMT -5
Funny you should say this, wally, as you are the one with a sniper reference in your signature line and a link to a survival blog in your profile! if you'll read the survivalblog you'll find alot of christian references there nothing about survival of the fittest though although i suppose a case could be made if your prepare for the worst your the fittest...as to the sniper reference it was my lame attempt at a military joke... I'm not trying to suggest that you are an atheist, only that you clearly think about your survival...possibly more than most. One might even draw a parallel with Christian beliefs about salvation for those who believe in and worship "God" and eternal damnation for those who do not, as being a form of the survival of the fittest!
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Post by snow on Nov 8, 2014 15:01:35 GMT -5
You, as well as many others, still cannot get the correct definition of "Atheist."
Atheism is often defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
NOT a belief, simply a lack of belief in any god! End. Period.
Saying that, tell me how could an atheist be for OR against survival of the fittest? atheist believe in evolution one of evolutions precepts is survival of the fittest quite simple really no god involved at all... No Wally, not all atheists believe in evolution. I am in a course right now where there are atheists that don't buy into evolution. When will you get that both Christians and Atheists believe in evolution and both Christians and Atheists don't believe in evolution. In other words, it has nothing to do with being an atheist. Also, survival of the fittest isn't necessarily just about the one who is the strongest and goes around killing others and therefore surviving. It is more about the one that has the best characteristics to survive, ie they might be more able to adapt to colder weather, or digest new foods etc. I really wish people would study evolution before making all kinds of comments about it. I hear these kinds of 'sayings' so often from Creationists and you know right away that they are just repeating what someone in their church or group has told them. Atheists are a diverse group that only agree on one thing. There is no God.
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Post by snow on Nov 8, 2014 15:04:30 GMT -5
Many Christians accept evolution as the process that produced the variety of life forms found on earth. If you've been keeping up, you will know that even the Pope has expressed his support of evolution. yes i've heard of his slip up and was sadly disappointed. it might suprise you but i believe in evolution/adaptation AFTER the flood... Well there's a new twist.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 15:06:32 GMT -5
atheist believe in evolution one of evolutions precepts is survival of the fittest quite simple really no god involved at all... No Wally, not all atheists believe in evolution. I am in a course right now where there are atheists that don't buy into evolution. When will you get that both Christians and Atheists believe in evolution and both Christians and Atheists don't believe in evolution. In other words, it has nothing to do with being an atheist. Also, survival of the fittest isn't necessarily just about the one who is the strongest and goes around killing others and therefore surviving. It is more about the one that has the best characteristics to survive, ie they might be more able to adapt to colder weather, or digest new foods etc. I really wish people would study evolution before making all kinds of comments about it. I hear these kinds of 'sayings' so often from Creationists and you know right away that they are just repeating what someone in their church or group has told them. Atheists are a diverse group that only agree on one thing. There is no God. atheist that don't believe in evolution? i find that hard to believe. there are only 2 options aren't there? evolution or creationism...or is there a 3rd option i am unaware of?
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Post by rational on Nov 8, 2014 15:29:12 GMT -5
Why does anyone need a 'First Cause' to explain the Universe? We have been told energy cannot be created nor destroyed, just transformed. If that is true, it has always existed in various ways. We don't need a God in the equation at all. Gods just muddy the waters because then we have to figure out which God of thousands was the creator of the universe.[/quote]It has been the experience of people that nothing happens without a cause. They assume that the same everyday logic can be universally applied. They generally reject the idea that virtual particle pairs are created and destroyed all the time out nothing, with no prior cause.
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Post by rational on Nov 8, 2014 15:34:27 GMT -5
atheist that don't believe in evolution? i find that hard to believe. there are only 2 options aren't there? evolution or creationism...or is there a 3rd option i am unaware of? There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.Shakespeare - Hamlet Act 1
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Post by xna on Nov 8, 2014 16:09:14 GMT -5
Good movie but twice as long as it should have been.
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Post by snow on Nov 8, 2014 16:31:57 GMT -5
No Wally, not all atheists believe in evolution. I am in a course right now where there are atheists that don't buy into evolution. When will you get that both Christians and Atheists believe in evolution and both Christians and Atheists don't believe in evolution. In other words, it has nothing to do with being an atheist. Also, survival of the fittest isn't necessarily just about the one who is the strongest and goes around killing others and therefore surviving. It is more about the one that has the best characteristics to survive, ie they might be more able to adapt to colder weather, or digest new foods etc. I really wish people would study evolution before making all kinds of comments about it. I hear these kinds of 'sayings' so often from Creationists and you know right away that they are just repeating what someone in their church or group has told them. Atheists are a diverse group that only agree on one thing. There is no God. atheist that don't believe in evolution? i find that hard to believe. there are only 2 options aren't there? evolution or creationism...or is there a 3rd option i am unaware of? I was surprised too. But they stated that they were atheists and didn't think that the explanation of evolution was the best one. I don't think they actually said what they believed. I don't think it would have been creationism either. I'll have to ask them, see if they answer.
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Post by snow on Nov 8, 2014 16:35:37 GMT -5
Why does anyone need a 'First Cause' to explain the Universe? We have been told energy cannot be created nor destroyed, just transformed. If that is true, it has always existed in various ways. We don't need a God in the equation at all. Gods just muddy the waters because then we have to figure out which God of thousands was the creator of the universe. It has been the experience of people that nothing happens without a cause. They assume that the same everyday logic can be universally applied. They generally reject the idea that virtual particle pairs are created and destroyed all the time out nothing, with no prior cause. Well that's the thing. We have learned so much now with quantum physics. The 'void' that people always seem to think is nothing is not. There is constant movement, for example, even though it is very small. The course I'm taking is teaching about dark energy and dark matter which I'm finding pretty interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 21:34:34 GMT -5
Whathat Quote - "1 to the hundredth to the hundredth is 1. If you meant 10 to the hundredth to the hundredth, that would be 1 with 10,000 zeroes. You might be a few short but I haven't counted." OOPS... I stand corrected. I wrote 10^200
I understand that ten to the power one hundred is a "GOOGOL" that is, the digit 1 followed by 100 zeroes:
thus... 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
And my earlier figure would be a GOOGOL TO THE POWER ONE HUNDRED ie GOOGOL^100.
I think this is correct: (10^100)^100 ?
Interestingly, you won't see numbers like this in nature (?) the number of atoms in the universe is about ten to the power eighty, 10^80. And GOOGOL, I think, was the inspiration for the term Google, first used for a really cool Search Engine.
Now, if we can just get Nathan interested in science!!!!
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Post by rational on Nov 9, 2014 1:05:25 GMT -5
The Science We learn in high school is NOT all cracked up to be! How does Science explain Jesus was able to walk on Water? He turned water to wine? Feed the 5,000 people twice with a few loaves of bread and some fish? How was Jesus able to calm the wind and the stormy sea? raised people from the dead? he Cure leprosy? How was Jesus raised up after he had been dead for 3 days? Can your science explain these things, BERT? Don't put too much stocks on Science, BERT! God works beyond science logic, BERT. TRY to think outside of the BOX, Bert! The same way that science does not explain how Dumbo can fly. An excellent demonstration of why facts are not determined by popularity.
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