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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 3:39:33 GMT -5
Pederastery Child to child marriage Temporary marriage Bestial marriage Polygamy Polygany Polyamory etc..
This is subtle, perhaps. The problem isn't with allowing "alternatives." (whatever rocks your boat, really...) The problem is what happens to your white picket fence, garden variety heterosexual marriage for the sake of the kids and your mother-in-law. If you can go and marry your much beloved 1950 Buick Roadmaster then what exactly IS marriage? IMO marriage is not an "institution" but an organic reality which provides stability for children, and the emotional needs of the man and woman. And it's not a myth that the family is the bedrock of society.
So marrying your Roadmaster is a subtle mocking of marriage. Marriage doesn't mean what it once meant. In fact, marriage doesn't really mean ANYTHING anymore - it's simply a statement of your casual preferences.
nb It's fine, if you are in France etc to see two women holding hands in the street, or two men kissing. But those poor Muslims in the ghettos are having six kids per house hold. And they vote. And when they burned 10,000 cars, they served notice they will fight the dirty infidels.
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Post by Mary on Mar 1, 2015 3:56:04 GMT -5
The 2x2s, as people on here call them, believe they are the only true church and claim they were started by Jesus. They claim they are right and that anyone who does not 'profess' through one of their workers/minsters is not saved and are following a false way. Most of us grew up being taught this church has an unbroken linage from Jesus to today which of course was not true. Many of us did not find out it was not true until reading it on the Internet.
They believe that one must hear the Gospel through one of their workers/ministers to be saved. All other minsters are false. That one can only be baptized by one of their workers. That one must met in a home and have communion in the home. Although they have Gospel meetings in rented halls and spend many thousands of dollars on their own convention grounds which they only use around 4 - 8 days a year they condemn churches who have buildings as false. They believe theirs is the true church and every other church is false. They were started around 1897 by William Irvine which prior to the information on the Internet very few knew about. Also workers are not allowed to get married. They must remain single to preach the Gospel and if they want to get married they have to give up the work. They have male and female workers who go out in pairs. They do not allow people who have come to the Lord in another church to have fellowship with them unless they stand up in one of their meetings and profess through worker and get baptised again (if they have been baptised before) and be baptised through a worker before they are allowed to join in their Sunday morning meetings and take the bread and wine with them. Occasionally someone who is visiting does take part anyway but this is not general practice. They would not allow you or me to join their fellowship without first professing in one of their meetings and getting baptised by one of their workers. In a sense we are renouncing our previous conversion as false. Of course, you would have to grow your hair long and other rules.
Maryhig, tell us about your fellowship? Are you worldwide or just a local group? How do people come to know Jesus in your group? By that I mean do you have those who go out preaching?? I don't feel there is anything wrong with calling a group a sect. To me a sect is a smaller group come from a bigger one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 4:13:26 GMT -5
Quote - "The 2x2s, as people on here call them, believe they are the only true church and claim they were started by Jesus. They claim they are right and that anyone who does not 'profess' through one of their workers/minsters is not saved and are following a false way." That's true.
Quote - "Most of us grew up being taught this church has an unbroken linage from Jesus to today which of course was not true. Many of us did not find out it was not true until reading it on the Internet." No, that's not true. We don't say we are an unbroken line to Jesus. The Catholics do that. We say we belong to the "Truth", and that's different. In the Old Testament I counted about ten times when the lineage of "Judaism" was broken. It's still the same unbroken Judaism.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 1, 2015 4:18:38 GMT -5
I've had a quick look at the telling the truth website, but i don't think I would read a book that called people a sect. As I know we are not a sect and we believe in a similar way, I'm more interested in their beliefs. To see how alike we are :-) I wouldn't worry about the word "sect". It is the normal dictionary word for a relatively small branch of a larger religious group. Basically any group other than Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox qualifies as a sect of Christianity.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 4:20:50 GMT -5
Yes, but "sect" has connotations, ie radical, fringe, think David Koresh or Jim Jones' "sect."
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Post by Mary on Mar 1, 2015 4:26:21 GMT -5
As you will see Maryhig, some people on this board still belong to the group. e.g. Bert, Nathan, fixit, emy and a few others. Nearly all, if not 99%of us belonged to it at one time, with most of us having had parents and grandparents in the group and we having been born into it. Most of us on here have left. Some of us have chosen to remain Christians while others have not.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 1, 2015 4:29:56 GMT -5
Quote - "The 2x2s, as people on here call them, believe they are the only true church and claim they were started by Jesus. They claim they are right and that anyone who does not 'profess' through one of their workers/minsters is not saved and are following a false way." That's true.Quote - "Most of us grew up being taught this church has an unbroken linage from Jesus to today which of course was not true. Many of us did not find out it was not true until reading it on the Internet." No, that's not true. We don't say we are an unbroken line to Jesus. The Catholics do that. We say we belong to the "Truth", and that's different. In the Old Testament I counted about ten times when the lineage of "Judaism" was broken. It's still the same unbroken Judaism.
Quote - "The 2x2s, as people on here call them, believe they are the only true church and claim they were started by Jesus. They claim they are right and that anyone who does not 'profess' through one of their workers/minsters is not saved and are following a false way." That's true.Quote - "Most of us grew up being taught this church has an unbroken linage from Jesus to today which of course was not true. Many of us did not find out it was not true until reading it on the Internet." No, that's not true. We don't say we are an unbroken line to Jesus. The Catholics do that. We say we belong to the "Truth", and that's different. In the Old Testament I counted about ten times when the lineage of "Judaism" was broken. It's still the same unbroken Judaism.
Ah, Bert! I still wonder just how long you have been the 2x2's! You certainly are denying what so many now know.
Does the rest in the fellowship meeting that you go too also believe as you?
Nearly 83 years I've known the history of the 2x2's because I heard my father & mother discussing it.
They probably thought I was too young to know what they were talking about!
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 1, 2015 4:32:44 GMT -5
Yes, but "sect" has connotations, ie radical, fringe, think David Koresh or Jim Jones' "sect." Yes, of course Jim Jones had a sect. It wasn't a sect because it was dangerous, it was a sect because it was different from other sects of Christianity. What do you call the 2x2's? Give it some dignity -- call it a sect and any "intelligent" person will think nothing of it.
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stevo
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Post by stevo on Mar 1, 2015 4:34:09 GMT -5
Can I ask why have most of you left the 2x2
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 1, 2015 4:36:53 GMT -5
I've had a quick look at the telling the truth website, but i don't think I would read a book that called people a sect. As I know we are not a sect and we believe in a similar way, I'm more interested in their beliefs. To see how alike we are :-) Parker probably referred to it as a "sect" because of it's late origins.
;)The difference between a "sect" & a bona fide (if there is such a thing) religion is often in the eye of the beholder!
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 1, 2015 4:38:51 GMT -5
Can I ask why have most of you left the 2x2 I was harassed for a decade -- no details, but not the most common experience among the 2x2s -- I left for the sake of my health and sanity.
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Post by Mary on Mar 1, 2015 4:41:26 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 1, 2015 4:42:17 GMT -5
I've had a quick look at the telling the truth website, but i don't think I would read a book that called people a sect. As I know we are not a sect and we believe in a similar way, I'm more interested in their beliefs. To see how alike we are :-) Parker probably referred to it as a "sect" because of it's late origins.
;)The difference between a "sect" & a bona fide (if there is such a thing) religion is often in the eye of the beholder!
You will notice that members of the 2x2s generally resist calling themselves anything other than the "Truth". You can't compliment them by categorizing them in any manner -- only occasionally will "church" work well.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 1, 2015 4:45:59 GMT -5
Quote - "The 2x2s, as people on here call them, believe they are the only true church and claim they were started by Jesus. They claim they are right and that anyone who does not 'profess' through one of their workers/minsters is not saved and are following a false way." That's true.Quote - "Most of us grew up being taught this church has an unbroken linage from Jesus to today which of course was not true. Many of us did not find out it was not true until reading it on the Internet." No, that's not true. We don't say we are an unbroken line to Jesus. The Catholics do that. We say we belong to the "Truth", and that's different. In the Old Testament I counted about ten times when the lineage of "Judaism" was broken. It's still the same unbroken Judaism.
Ah, Bert! I still wonder just how long you have been the 2x2's! You certainly are denying what so many now know.
Does the rest in the fellowship meeting that you go too also believe as you?
Nearly 83 years I've known the history of the 2x2's because I heard my father & mother discussing it.
They probably thought I was too young to know what they were talking about!
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stevo
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Post by stevo on Mar 1, 2015 4:48:54 GMT -5
Do you mean you don't believe in god now? or how the 2x2 believe? as god sees the heart and not religion or sect but I believe he uses us to get to other people.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 5:04:49 GMT -5
Quote - "Does the rest in the fellowship meeting that you go too also believe as you?"
Yes, of course. And we are glad for an unchanging way which goes back to Jesus. Correction - an unchanging way which goes back far before Jesus.
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stevo
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Post by stevo on Mar 1, 2015 5:12:17 GMT -5
Thanks for that Mary I will give that a good read as I would like to find out the back ground to it all.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 1, 2015 5:19:11 GMT -5
The 2x2s, as people on here call them, believe they are the only true church and claim they were started by Jesus. They claim they are right and that anyone who does not 'profess' through one of their workers/minsters is not saved and are following a false way. Most of us grew up being taught this church has an unbroken linage from Jesus to today which of course was not true. Many of us did not find out it was not true until reading it on the Internet. They believe that one must hear the Gospel through one of their workers/ministers to be saved. All other minsters are false. That one can only be baptized by one of their workers. That one must met in a home and have communion in the home. Although they have Gospel meetings in rented halls and spend many thousands of dollars on their own convention grounds which they only use around 4 - 8 days a year they condemn churches who have buildings as false. They believe theirs is the true church and every other church is false. They were started around 1897 by William Irvine which prior to the information on the Internet very few knew about. Also workers are not allowed to get married. They must remain single to preach the Gospel and if they want to get married they have to give up the work. They have male and female workers who go out in pairs. They do not allow people who have come to the Lord in another church to have fellowship with them unless they stand up in one of their meetings and profess through worker and get baptised again (if they have been baptised before) and be baptised through a worker before they are allowed to join in their Sunday morning meetings and take the bread and wine with them. Occasionally someone who is visiting does take part anyway but this is not general practice. They would not allow you or me to join their fellowship without first professing in one of their meetings and getting baptised by one of their workers. In a sense we are renouncing our previous conversion as false. Of course, you would have to grow your hair long and other rules. Maryhig, tell us about your fellowship? Are you worldwide or just a local group? How do people come to know Jesus in your group? By that I mean do you have those who go out preaching?? I don't feel there is anything wrong with calling a group a sect. To me a sect is a smaller group come from a bigger one. Hi Mary! :-) This is a bit different to how we believe. We don't believe that the only way to God is through one religion, as God looks at the heart. We do believe that you have to follow Jesus though and saying you believe isn't enough, you have to live it! Saying that, God judges all, and we don't know the hearts' of the people in other religions so we can't judge them. I have always known about Edward Cooney and William Irvine, nothing has been hidden from me. I came here trying to find out more. My uncle talked about Edward Cooney and said what a good man in God he was. I know by reading different bits that he made mistakes but we as humans do. We think it's better if you can give up things like make up etc. But it isn't forced on us. I have done so because i couldn't go out of the house without it on and feel in my own heart that's wrong. But it is my own choice. Our door's are open to everyone, We too don't believe it's a good thing to have churches because Jesus didn't. That's why we have meetings in our homes as it keeps us humble. I believe that living the life of Jesus isn't about the building or the organisations or chantings and rituals it's about keeping humble loving God and your neighbour as yourself and not building up in the world, as it says in the bible, God's house is not made by mens' hands also it says do you not know your body is the temple of the living God. So the people are the church, not the buildingI don't think it sounds too good spending thousands on conventions. Jesus didn't have money, he had to ask for a coin when asked about tributes to Caesar. I believe he would have had very little money. Even though my uncle was a lay preacher and never married (that was his choice) I have never heard that you have to go out as a worker and not get married. We talk to people that we meet in our day to day lives. We don't have excommunication and things like that, I hadn't heard of that until I read it here, If anyone goes away the door is always open in the hope they will come back. We don't have workers or overseers but we are only a small congregation there are meetings still in Ireland, and those who go to Ireland do attend them. They also have a big meeting once a year which I think maybe like one of your conventions. But if it costs thousands as you say, then personally I don't think that is right. But that's my personal belief. We don't believe Jesus had to die on a wooden cross to save us, we believe that he had to put satan to death in the flesh by denying him and show God through his life and to show us how to get closer to God by following him. We believe he never sinned and fulfilled what God had sent him to do leaving us an example for us to follow. And we believe thats what he means by "take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me!" It says in the bible that if they had known they would not have crucified the prince of glory. 1 corinthians 2:8 Also it says The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you slew and hanged on a tree Acts 5:30 So Peter and Paul didn't think that killing Jesus is anything to Glorify! So regardless of what anyone else says, my own heart tells me this is wrong. I can't see how God would go back on his own commandment if he says we can't kill then he wouldn't say it was right to kill his son. But he did know what satan would would do to him as prophesied in the Old Testement. One last thing is I have trouble in thinking that the only way to believe is to believe and be saved through workers and one religion. We are saved by following Jesus. If there is only the one religion, what happened to all the people between Jesus and William Irvine? I have never been taught this. I have been taught that they are men of God bringing God's word to others but its by Jesus' life and following him we are saved. As for sect I thought it was mean't in the way of that sect in waco or other so called sects in the wrong way. I understand now, thanks for clarifying that! :-) Anything else you would like to know please ask me :-)
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 1, 2015 5:22:08 GMT -5
Do you mean you don't believe in god now? or how the 2x2 believe? as god sees the heart and not religion or sect but I believe he uses us to get to other people. Two separate matters -- my first problem was SPECIFICALLY with the corruption and abuse of the 2x2 ministry; and the other problem arose from my religious studies (all professors were clergy), specifically the origins and history of Christian theology, to the point that I cannot believe in anything of Christian theology. I don't believe anyone is competent to my satisfaction to tell me anything about God or the hereafter, and if there is a God I am perfectly satisfied that I am responsible for nothing more than the highest moral life I can achieve.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 5:31:43 GMT -5
Bob I find that "Christian theology" is fairly well covered in the Jew's own book, the Old Testament. Every aspect, from Jesus' birth, his mother, his father, his upbringing, his time in Egypt, his ministry, the one who went before him, his miracles, his preaching, his affect on people, his betrayal, his arrest, his trial, his crucifixion, his resurrection, his Gospel to the world and his church. Some (even in many church's ministries) say this or that verse is not correct. But it can be set against the Old Testament - a kind of ground truth.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 1, 2015 5:51:12 GMT -5
Bob I find that "Christian theology" is fairly well covered in the Jew's own book, the Old Testament. Every aspect, from Jesus' birth, his mother, his father, his upbringing, his time in Egypt, his ministry, the one who went before him, his miracles, his preaching, his affect on people, his betrayal, his arrest, his trial, his crucifixion, his resurrection, his Gospel to the world and his church. Some (even in many church's ministries) say this or that verse is not correct. But it can be set against the Old Testament - a kind of ground truth. I know you do. We've gone over this and I have found no compelling reason to believe your understanding of the Old Testament.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 6:00:44 GMT -5
What then is your reading of Isaiah 53? It's clearly very important - it's the question the eunuch asked Phillip, "I ask you, of whom speaks the author, of himself or another man?"
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Post by rational on Mar 1, 2015 10:10:00 GMT -5
People who hurt cats (and dogs too, for that matter) are not normal. My cat and I are inseparable. I would say that people who hurt any animals and derive some pleasure from the act are not normal. But then, who doesn't feel some degree of pleasure when you slap a deer fly that has been biting you and you see it dead on the ground. Now let's consider the normalcy a person who states they are inseparable from their cat....
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Post by rational on Mar 1, 2015 10:14:37 GMT -5
The issue with "gay marriage" is itself sexist. If it's fine to have two men or two women marry then why shouldn't we allow ALL marital variations? Adult to Pubescent child marriage (pederast) Child to child marriage Temporary marriage (one nighter, weekender etc..) Bestial marriage (you do love your dog, right?) Polygamy Polyamory (non exclusive) etc Fallacy of the slippery slope?
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Post by rational on Mar 1, 2015 10:23:02 GMT -5
Two points that jumped out of the post: And we believe thats what he means by "take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me!" What cross? Was this foreshadowing by Jesus or by the writer? Had this been the case could christianity exist? Isn't the sacrifice of Jesus one of the pillars of the religion? It was a requirement. If you know someone is going to be killed and have the power to prevent it but do not are you not also guilty of the homicide?
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Post by Gene on Mar 1, 2015 10:45:44 GMT -5
Pederastery Child to child marriage Temporary marriage Bestial marriage Polygamy Polygany Polyamory etc.. This is subtle, perhaps. The problem isn't with allowing "alternatives." (whatever rocks your boat, really...) The problem is what happens to your white picket fence, garden variety heterosexual marriage for the sake of the kids and your mother-in-law. If you can go and marry your much beloved 1950 Buick Roadmaster then what exactly IS marriage? IMO marriage is not an "institution" but an organic reality which provides stability for children, and the emotional needs of the man and woman. And it's not a myth that the family is the bedrock of society. So marrying your Roadmaster is a subtle mocking of marriage. Marriage doesn't mean what it once meant. In fact, marriage doesn't really mean ANYTHING anymore - it's simply a statement of your casual preferences. nb It's fine, if you are in France etc to see two women holding hands in the street, or two men kissing. But those poor Muslims in the ghettos are having six kids per house hold. And they vote. And when they burned 10,000 cars, they served notice they will fight the dirty infidels. It is, indeed, a slippery slope. Allow gay marriage and who knows what will be next? Come to think of it, if they had never allowed heterosexual marriage in the first place, we wouldn't have seen the gays start clamoring for it.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 1, 2015 11:40:39 GMT -5
Two points that jumped out of the post: And we believe thats what he means by "take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me!" What cross? Was this foreshadowing by Jesus or by the writer? Had this been the case could christianity exist? Isn't the sacrifice of Jesus one of the pillars of the religion? It was a requirement. If you know someone is going to be killed and have the power to prevent it but do not are you not also guilty of the homicide? Hello again! The cross I believe he is referring to is our body, the wooden cross is made for the shape of our body, not the other way round. It's fighting and denying satan in this fleshly body with Christ helping us in our hearts. He never sinned and overcame the world and he can help us do this too Why wouldn't christianity exist? The christian religions might not exist because they put their whole emphasis on the death on the cross. Where as the emphasis should be on his life and following his example. The sacrifice of Jesus may well be one of the pillars of religion. But I don't believe in religion, I believe in God! I don't want the death of Jesus, I want his life! Jesus came here of his own free will, I believe he came here to show the love of God though his life. Peter says in acts 2:22:23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, as you yourselves know. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken,and by wicked hands have cruicifed and slain. Peter doesn't glorify it at all! It says that chapter God foreknew what satan in the hearts of man would do to Jesus, but Jesus was willing for this. Everything was prophesied in the Old Testement. God knew what they wouid do, but it doesn't mean it was good and holy! Jesus came and went through it all to teach us that when people come with hatred we show love because God is love. He came in the image of his father. So he showed us God in his heart. In John 17:4 Jesus says " I have gloified thee on the earth, I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do! So the work he came to do wasn't dying on a cross, because he had finished it before he went on the cross! I was looking in the mirror the other day and it showed the reflection of the room, the mirror is there but you don't see it you just the reflection and I thought that this was the way Jesus showed us God. He came and showed the exact Image of God. But Jesus' fleshly life wasn't to be seen. By this I mean he never lived to please himself, he put the man Jesus to death and let the love of God live! This is what Paul means when he says "I die daily" Pauls old life is dead but it has to be daily because he has to fight his fleshy sins daily. As we are tempted every day. Paul followed Jesus' example, just as we must do. As far as we are willing to go. If we are all saved by just believing then Paul and the other prophets and apostles wouldn't have to live it out. If we believe, we must live it. This is what I believe.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 1, 2015 12:10:32 GMT -5
Hello again! The cross I believe he is referring to is our body, the wooden cross is made for the shape of our body, not the other way round. It's fighting and denying satan in this fleshly body with Christ helping us in our hearts. He never sinned and overcame the world and he can help us do this too Why wouldn't christianity exist? The christian religions might not exist because they put their whole emphasis on the death on the cross. Where as the emphasis should be on his life and following his example. The sacrifice of Jesus may well be one of the pillars of religion. But I don't believe in religion, I believe in God! I don't want the death of Jesus, I want his life! Without Jesus death on Calvary's Cross there would be NO Eternal life for humanity. We must die to self/born again before we can receive Eternal life through believing in Jesus. You can't have the cart before the horse. Yes Nathan you're right, we must die to self and be born again, Just as Jesus did, he died to self and was born in God, He never sinned. And because of this God gave him the power to overcome the flesh. Because he denied Satan. John 17:2 A"s thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou has given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." God is life eternal and if we let him into our hearts and endure to the end we will be with him eternally! Nathan this is how I believe, I cannot glorify the death of Gods son, a man that never sinned. When Jesus was on the cross, there we're 2 thieves, one said 'save yourself and us also' The other thief on the other hand said ' do you not fear God, for we receive due reward of our deeds. This man has done nothing wrong. Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom' It wasn't the thief on the cross who was all about being saved Nathan that got in, It was the thief who admitted his sins and knew he deserved to die that got in. Nathan, you and I deserve to die (death to self) Jesus has done nothing wrong, we should be letting him live through us not putting his death on the cross as the emphasis on being saved. He saved us by showing us how to live!
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