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Post by blandie on Nov 16, 2017 16:02:23 GMT -5
Somehow only the bible accounts could have survived? After all I'm pretty sure the Romans would have taken note of a bunch of dead people walking around their domain and we know they were quite prolific record keepers. Surely some would have survived the destruction of Jerusalem if the bible reports made it through. If not written by Jews, Romans reporting the event, which I'm sure would be quite frightening even for hardened soldiers? We know that the christians fled jerusalem to what is now jordan well away from the calamity prior to the jewish revolt so their documents would have survived that event. Other jewish groups hid some texts but few of those are contemporary histories. Before the romans destroyed jerusalem and the other cities of judea the jewish rebels destroyed the roman administrative system there and then anything that survived of that would have had to survive a 2nd destruction - and perhaps a 3rd round 50 years after that. There are few surviving roman provincial records apart from some bits in roman historical accounts - and they are almost entirely focused on rome and not provincial backwater happenings - and a couple of accounts penned by romans of the highest rank of which a few occasionally served as governors and none of whom served over syria or judea. Even for rome itself there are very few surviving documents apart from what their historians thought relevant to include in their works and inscriptions from buildings and tombs and we don't have accounts for many events you or I would consider 'major' happenings. Even jewish traditions were interrupted by those revolts and took some time to recover and even then it was sages from mesopotamia and egypt and the fringes of the jewish world who gathered and ensured the survival of pharisaic judaism which eventually became normative. We have only slight clues as to the beliefs of other major jewish sects such as the sadducees and essenes because of those destructions. Even the dead sea scrolls that have been attributed to essenes might not be from them at all because we just don't have enough in the way of surviving records to piece together what they thought and did - popular literature notwithstanding.
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Post by snow on Nov 16, 2017 16:35:59 GMT -5
Somehow only the bible accounts could have survived? After all I'm pretty sure the Romans would have taken note of a bunch of dead people walking around their domain and we know they were quite prolific record keepers. Surely some would have survived the destruction of Jerusalem if the bible reports made it through. If not written by Jews, Romans reporting the event, which I'm sure would be quite frightening even for hardened soldiers? We know that the christians fled jerusalem to what is now jordan well away from the calamity prior to the jewish revolt so their documents would have survived that event. Other jewish groups hid some texts but few of those are contemporary histories. Before the romans destroyed jerusalem and the other cities of judea the jewish rebels destroyed the roman administrative system there and then anything that survived of that would have had to survive a 2nd destruction - and perhaps a 3rd round 50 years after that. There are few surviving roman provincial records apart from some bits in roman historical accounts - and they are almost entirely focused on rome and not provincial backwater happenings - and a couple of accounts penned by romans of the highest rank of which a few occasionally served as governors and none of whom served over syria or judea. Even for rome itself there are very few surviving documents apart from what their historians thought relevant to include in their works and inscriptions from buildings and tombs and we don't have accounts for many events you or I would consider 'major' happenings. Even jewish traditions were interrupted by those revolts and took some time to recover and even then it was sages from mesopotamia and egypt and the fringes of the jewish world who gathered and ensured the survival of pharisaic judaism which eventually became normative. We have only slight clues as to the beliefs of other major jewish sects such as the sadducees and essenes because of those destructions. Even the dead sea scrolls that have been attributed to essenes might not be from them at all because we just don't have enough in the way of surviving records to piece together what they thought and did - popular literature notwithstanding. Yes some Christians got out before the final destruction and yes they could have saved the reports. But if they could so could non Christians that left or wrote to others outside of Jerusalem. It would have been quite the event I'm sure and people being people they would have definitely reported on it, talked about it and it wouldn't have just stayed in Jerusalem. Not something that unusual. The Essenes do actually have quite a bit known about them considering they were a group that liked to set themselves apart. Overall, I think a lot of what the original Jesus followers believed did get lost, destroyed etc. I don't think the books that made the gospel tell the whole story, but it is the story that the early church fathers liked best so we now have it compiled together in what we know today as the bible.
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Post by blandie on Nov 16, 2017 17:14:54 GMT -5
Yes some Christians got out before the final destruction and yes they could have saved the reports. But if they could so could non Christians that left or wrote to others outside of Jerusalem. It would have been quite the event I'm sure and people being people they would have definitely reported on it, talked about it and it wouldn't have just stayed in Jerusalem. Not something that unusual. The Essenes do actually have quite a bit known about them considering they were a group that liked to set themselves apart. Overall, I think a lot of what the original Jesus followers believed did get lost, destroyed etc. I don't think the books that made the gospel tell the whole story, but it is the story that the early church fathers liked best so we now have it compiled together in what we know today as the bible. There were few non-christians or non-jews residing in jerusalem during christ's time as has been confirmed by archaeology. There are no confirmed direct records from the essenes and what we have are 2nd or 3rd hand accounts from philo and pliny that tell us very little about them and a bit more from josephus. Pliny and philo say only that a group with this name lived in ein gedi near the dead sea. Josephus appears to have known some essenes but mostly mentions some of their practices and also says that there were different types of essenes and other than mentioning them in connection with some battles doesn't offer much else as to the happenings of their actual history. Thats not a lot of direct evidence to go on and popular literature on that subject isn't about confirmed evidence and the archeologists and historians who do technical paper offer theses and counter-theses based on the same limited evidence - maybe something firmer will turn up and I haven't lost hope that it will. Would you give more credence to resurrected folks walking around if someone uncovered an ancient scrap of letter saying that joe benezra's dead brother got up from the family tomb at that time? Some things seem unbelievable and easily discounted even if you see them first hand.
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Post by nathan on Nov 16, 2017 17:50:07 GMT -5
Nathan that's something to think about for sure ... how Satan puts the fear of death into us. I learned something else from you on this post too ... all those other horrible ways GOD believing and Christian people died. Hi, Jet.... this is how you quote someone's post... go to the upper right with the word quote and click on it. Try it with your next post.
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Post by jetmech on Nov 16, 2017 18:08:08 GMT -5
Nathan that's something to think about for sure ... how Satan puts the fear of death into us. I learned something else from you on this post too ... all those other horrible ways GOD believing and Christian people died. Hi, Jet.... this is how you quote someone's post... go to the upper right with the word quote and click on it. Try it with your next post.
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Post by jetmech on Nov 16, 2017 18:08:58 GMT -5
ok ... let's if it works. Thx in advance Mr Nathan
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Nov 16, 2017 18:09:55 GMT -5
We know that the christians fled jerusalem to what is now jordan well away from the calamity prior to the jewish revolt so their documents would have survived that event. Other jewish groups hid some texts but few of those are contemporary histories. Before the romans destroyed jerusalem and the other cities of judea the jewish rebels destroyed the roman administrative system there and then anything that survived of that would have had to survive a 2nd destruction - and perhaps a 3rd round 50 years after that. There are few surviving roman provincial records apart from some bits in roman historical accounts - and they are almost entirely focused on rome and not provincial backwater happenings - and a couple of accounts penned by romans of the highest rank of which a few occasionally served as governors and none of whom served over syria or judea. Even for rome itself there are very few surviving documents apart from what their historians thought relevant to include in their works and inscriptions from buildings and tombs and we don't have accounts for many events you or I would consider 'major' happenings. Even jewish traditions were interrupted by those revolts and took some time to recover and even then it was sages from mesopotamia and egypt and the fringes of the jewish world who gathered and ensured the survival of pharisaic judaism which eventually became normative. We have only slight clues as to the beliefs of other major jewish sects such as the sadducees and essenes because of those destructions. Even the dead sea scrolls that have been attributed to essenes might not be from them at all because we just don't have enough in the way of surviving records to piece together what they thought and did - popular literature notwithstanding. Yes some Christians got out before the final destruction and yes they could have saved the reports. But if they could so could non Christians that left or wrote to others outside of Jerusalem. It would have been quite the event I'm sure and people being people they would have definitely reported on it, talked about it and it wouldn't have just stayed in Jerusalem. Not something that unusual. The Essenes do actually have quite a bit known about them considering they were a group that liked to set themselves apart. Overall, I think a lot of what the original Jesus followers believed did get lost, destroyed etc. I don't think the books that made the gospel tell the whole story, but it is the story that the early church fathers liked best so we now have it compiled together in what we know today as the bible. The Biblical books had already spread beyond Jerusalem by that time anyway (most of them didn't go to Jerusalem first, anyway). Even if the Christians at Jerusalem didn't manage to preserve them, other Christians did.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 16, 2017 22:50:49 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to Jesus or the resurrection when I talked of the dead walking the streets. That happened during the crucifixion If the dead left their graves and walked around why does no one but future Christians notice it? There are things that should have been witnessed by everyone and you'd think someone other than a Jesus follower would report what they'd seen. But they are silent on the subject. Actually there may have been good reason that the claims of resurrection of those dead walking the streets were not mentioned outside the NT.
Basically because it was NOT unusual for people to believe in a resurrection of the dead in those days.
So the claim that Jesus was resurrected as well as those others would be just one more of many such claims.
In fact, as we would say these days, claims of resurrections of the dead were "a dime a dozen!"
Resurrection in various religions Resurrection is the concept of coming back to life after death. In a number o f ancient religions, a dying-and-rising god is a deity which dies and resurrects. The death and resurrection of Jesus, an example of resurrection, is the central focus of Christianity. Ancient Greek religion In ancient Greek religion a number of men and women were made physically immortal as they were resurrected from the dead. Asclepius was killed by Zeus, only to be resurrected and transformed into a major deity. Achilles, after being killed, was snatched from his funeral pyre by his divine mother Thetis and resurrected, brought to an immortal existence in either Leuce, Elysian plains or the Islands of the Blessed. Memnon, who was killed by Achilles, seems to have received a similar fate. Alcmene, Castor, Heracles, and Melicertes, were also among the figures sometimes considered to have been resurrected to physical immortality. According to Herodotus's Histories, the seventh century BC sage Aristeas of Proconnesus was first found dead, after which his body disappeared from a locked room.
Later he found not only to have been resurrected but to have gained immortality.
Who does this last one resemble? Of course! Jesus body disappeared from a tomb guarded by soldiers!
Here is another instance much like in Zen Buddhism
Here is the account from Irmgard Schloegl's "The Zen Teaching of Rinzai".
"One day at the street market Fuke was begging all and sundry to give him a robe. Everybody offered him one, but he did not want any of them. The master [Linji] made the superior buy a coffin, and when Fuke returned, said to him: "There, I had this robe made for you." Fuke shouldered the coffin, and went back to the street market, calling loudly: "Rinzai had this robe made for me! I am off to the East Gate to enter transformation" (to die)." The people of the market crowded after him, eager to look. Fuke said: "No, not today. Tomorrow, I shall go to the South Gate to enter transformation." And so for three days. Nobody believed it any longer. On the fourth day, and now without any spectators, Fuke went alone outside the city walls, and laid himself into the coffin. He asked a traveler who chanced by to nail down the lid.
The news spread at once, and the people of the market rushed there. On opening the coffin, they found that the body had vanished, but from high up in the sky they heard the ring of his hand bell."
In fact one even wonders if the disciples felt it necessary to make such a claim for their god as well, if they were to be taken seriously by the rest of the world at that time.
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Post by nathan on Nov 16, 2017 23:06:21 GMT -5
Jesus raised the dead a few times during 3 1/2 years in the ministry, and Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha was another one he raised from the dead before many witnesses. So, Jesus raised from the dead was NOT new to the Jews in His days! The dead came out of the grave when he died...
The Jews in the days of Jesus witnessed dead people came back to life.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 16, 2017 23:14:55 GMT -5
Actually, why is anyone even discussing this?
It doesn't matter how many people, Christian or Jews, who were there at the time or now many pieces of literature got out or didn't get out during the destruction of the temple and the revolt of the Jews.
The claim of the resurrection of Jesus is just one more claim like all the other claims of resurrections
I am quite sure that no one here would believe in the prior resurrections of Fuke or Aristeas of Proconnesus
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Post by nathan on Nov 16, 2017 23:30:57 GMT -5
Actually, why is anyone even discussing this?
It doesn't matter how many people, Christian or Jews, who were there at the time or now many pieces of literature got out or didn't get out during the destruction of the temple and the revolt of the Jews.
The claim of the resurrection of Jesus is just one more claim like all the other claims of resurrections
I am quite sure that no one here would believe in the prior resurrections of Fuke or Aristeas of Proconnesus Resurrection is part of the Christians hope and something to look forward to .... That was WHY Jesus raised from the dead to give the next 2000 years believers hope to believe in Christ will raise them up one of these days! also.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 17, 2017 1:28:00 GMT -5
It just doesn't make sense to refute the principle tenet of your belief system by denying the faith claims of other persons who also follow the same text as you do. The only difference being the relatively minor variations in interpretative styles. There are many people who, like @dennisj , were once convinced they were true followers, but now retrospectively deny this. Our stories is a link on this website titled "The Clergy Project" and covers the moving experiences of individuals whose existance was once deeply rooted in a faith which they ultimately lost. To dismiss one christian faith due to a lack of evidence for miracles and healing, and other perceived deficits, is logically consistent with the dismissal of all variances of christianity.
Thank you, Joanna for that link!
I am on some other sites that are support groups for Christians who no longer can believe.
Our stories on "The Clergy Project" sounds as if it is also a great support group!
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2017 12:40:13 GMT -5
Yes some Christians got out before the final destruction and yes they could have saved the reports. But if they could so could non Christians that left or wrote to others outside of Jerusalem. It would have been quite the event I'm sure and people being people they would have definitely reported on it, talked about it and it wouldn't have just stayed in Jerusalem. Not something that unusual. The Essenes do actually have quite a bit known about them considering they were a group that liked to set themselves apart. Overall, I think a lot of what the original Jesus followers believed did get lost, destroyed etc. I don't think the books that made the gospel tell the whole story, but it is the story that the early church fathers liked best so we now have it compiled together in what we know today as the bible. There were few non-christians or non-jews residing in jerusalem during christ's time as has been confirmed by archaeology. There are no confirmed direct records from the essenes and what we have are 2nd or 3rd hand accounts from philo and pliny that tell us very little about them and a bit more from josephus. Pliny and philo say only that a group with this name lived in ein gedi near the dead sea. Josephus appears to have known some essenes but mostly mentions some of their practices and also says that there were different types of essenes and other than mentioning them in connection with some battles doesn't offer much else as to the happenings of their actual history. Thats not a lot of direct evidence to go on and popular literature on that subject isn't about confirmed evidence and the archeologists and historians who do technical paper offer theses and counter-theses based on the same limited evidence - maybe something firmer will turn up and I haven't lost hope that it will. Would you give more credence to resurrected folks walking around if someone uncovered an ancient scrap of letter saying that joe benezra's dead brother got up from the family tomb at that time? Some things seem unbelievable and easily discounted even if you see them first hand. I think I would give it a little more credibility if it was actually mentioned somewhere other than in the bible. If something like that happened in your home town don't you think everyone that could write would be talking about it? But here we have a huge population of people that never even mention such a huge event. The only ones that mention it are the Jews that went on to be labelled as Christians. Doesn't that make you wonder? It makes me wonder. There would have been a large number of walking dead. Why was it a non event for anyone that wasn't a Christian Jew? Trust me, if I saw everyone climbing out of their graves at the local cemetery and they started walking down my street, I'm sure I would pay attention and possibly believe in whatever force could make it happen. Of course nothing would make it certain which god of the many was actually responsible for it. For me, the Christian Jesus is just too much of a copycat story from earlier religions. The Christos is a well known persona among the ancient people. The difference was that Christians said their Christos actually was a flesh and blood entity who later the catholics made into a god. That's how I see it and until there is evidence to disprove that, it's what I accept. Just one more religion was born in a time that was traumatic for the culture it was born in.
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2017 12:43:58 GMT -5
Yes some Christians got out before the final destruction and yes they could have saved the reports. But if they could so could non Christians that left or wrote to others outside of Jerusalem. It would have been quite the event I'm sure and people being people they would have definitely reported on it, talked about it and it wouldn't have just stayed in Jerusalem. Not something that unusual. The Essenes do actually have quite a bit known about them considering they were a group that liked to set themselves apart. Overall, I think a lot of what the original Jesus followers believed did get lost, destroyed etc. I don't think the books that made the gospel tell the whole story, but it is the story that the early church fathers liked best so we now have it compiled together in what we know today as the bible. The Biblical books had already spread beyond Jerusalem by that time anyway (most of them didn't go to Jerusalem first, anyway). Even if the Christians at Jerusalem didn't manage to preserve them, other Christians did. So do you have an explanation of why no one other than Christians were able to get out the documentation of people rising from their graves and walking in the streets. This wouldn't have been a minor occurrence, so you'd think if it actually happened, anyone that could write would have recorded the event. It's very unlikely this ever happened and the world other than those who wrote and got included in the bible, never seems to have noticed that it happened at all.
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2017 14:10:21 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to Jesus or the resurrection when I talked of the dead walking the streets. That happened during the crucifixion If the dead left their graves and walked around why does no one but future Christians notice it? There are things that should have been witnessed by everyone and you'd think someone other than a Jesus follower would report what they'd seen. But they are silent on the subject. Actually there may have been good reason that the claims of resurrection of those dead walking the streets were not mentioned outside the NT.
Basically because it was NOT unusual for people to believe in a resurrection of the dead in those days.
So the claim that Jesus was resurrected as well as those others would be just one more of many such claims.
In fact, as we would say these days, claims of resurrections of the dead were "a dime a dozen!"
Resurrection in various religions Resurrection is the concept of coming back to life after death. In a number o f ancient religions, a dying-and-rising god is a deity which dies and resurrects. The death and resurrection of Jesus, an example of resurrection, is the central focus of Christianity. Ancient Greek religion In ancient Greek religion a number of men and women were made physically immortal as they were resurrected from the dead. Asclepius was killed by Zeus, only to be resurrected and transformed into a major deity. Achilles, after being killed, was snatched from his funeral pyre by his divine mother Thetis and resurrected, brought to an immortal existence in either Leuce, Elysian plains or the Islands of the Blessed. Memnon, who was killed by Achilles, seems to have received a similar fate. Alcmene, Castor, Heracles, and Melicertes, were also among the figures sometimes considered to have been resurrected to physical immortality. According to Herodotus's Histories, the seventh century BC sage Aristeas of Proconnesus was first found dead, after which his body disappeared from a locked room.
Later he found not only to have been resurrected but to have gained immortality.
Who does this last one resemble? Of course! Jesus body disappeared from a tomb guarded by soldiers!
Here is another instance much like in Zen Buddhism
Here is the account from Irmgard Schloegl's "The Zen Teaching of Rinzai".
"One day at the street market Fuke was begging all and sundry to give him a robe. Everybody offered him one, but he did not want any of them. The master [Linji] made the superior buy a coffin, and when Fuke returned, said to him: "There, I had this robe made for you." Fuke shouldered the coffin, and went back to the street market, calling loudly: "Rinzai had this robe made for me! I am off to the East Gate to enter transformation" (to die)." The people of the market crowded after him, eager to look. Fuke said: "No, not today. Tomorrow, I shall go to the South Gate to enter transformation." And so for three days. Nobody believed it any longer. On the fourth day, and now without any spectators, Fuke went alone outside the city walls, and laid himself into the coffin. He asked a traveler who chanced by to nail down the lid.
The news spread at once, and the people of the market rushed there. On opening the coffin, they found that the body had vanished, but from high up in the sky they heard the ring of his hand bell."
In fact one even wonders if the disciples felt it necessary to make such a claim for their god as well, if they were to be taken seriously by the rest of the world at that time.
From my understanding of the verses that talk about it, it would be not a few people rising from their graves. It was everyone that had died and were buried. That, would be a huge event I would think. If Christians could remember it happening, write about it and get those documents out and safe, I'm sure some non christians could have witnessed it, remembered it, wrote about and managed to get that documentation out safe. It is suspect as are a lot of what they write in the bible that never made it into any other form of documentation separate from the biblical authorship.
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Post by Grant on Nov 17, 2017 14:12:33 GMT -5
Where are the verses that people were raising from the grave? I know they are meant to be in the future but has the rescurrection happened and I missed out?
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Post by blandie on Nov 17, 2017 14:27:14 GMT -5
I think I would give it a little more credibility if it was actually mentioned somewhere other than in the bible. If something like that happened in your home town don't you think everyone that could write would be talking about it? But here we have a huge population of people that never even mention such a huge event. The only ones that mention it are the Jews that went on to be labelled as Christians. Doesn't that make you wonder? It makes me wonder. There would have been a large number of walking dead. Why was it a non event for anyone that wasn't a Christian Jew? Trust me, if I saw everyone climbing out of their graves at the local cemetery and they started walking down my street, I'm sure I would pay attention and possibly believe in whatever force could make it happen. Of course nothing would make it certain which god of the many was actually responsible for it. For me, the Christian Jesus is just too much of a copycat story from earlier religions. The Christos is a well known persona among the ancient people. The difference was that Christians said their Christos actually was a flesh and blood entity who later the catholics made into a god. That's how I see it and until there is evidence to disprove that, it's what I accept. Just one more religion was born in a time that was traumatic for the culture it was born in. Yes I'd fully expect it to be mentioned. However that does not mean that those accounts would still be around 2000 years later and like I said there are many other events that have been shown to have happened that no record has come down to us - for instance we have a written account of the c. 415 eruption of krakatoa and the 1883 eruption of krakatoa but no records have come down to us of extremely violent eruptions in between. Even more recently there were some 11 thousand major movies made during the years up to 1930 and yet 75% of them have disappeared and most of the remaining have losses. So no it does not make me wonder that we have no accounts from non-judeochristian sources of resurrected people. The further back you'd look into records the more appreciative you'd be of how very little survives over time. Grant - I think snow is referring to Mathew 27:52 when many reported that some who had died were raised during or right after the resurrection.
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2017 14:33:13 GMT -5
I think I would give it a little more credibility if it was actually mentioned somewhere other than in the bible. If something like that happened in your home town don't you think everyone that could write would be talking about it? But here we have a huge population of people that never even mention such a huge event. The only ones that mention it are the Jews that went on to be labelled as Christians. Doesn't that make you wonder? It makes me wonder. There would have been a large number of walking dead. Why was it a non event for anyone that wasn't a Christian Jew? Trust me, if I saw everyone climbing out of their graves at the local cemetery and they started walking down my street, I'm sure I would pay attention and possibly believe in whatever force could make it happen. Of course nothing would make it certain which god of the many was actually responsible for it. For me, the Christian Jesus is just too much of a copycat story from earlier religions. The Christos is a well known persona among the ancient people. The difference was that Christians said their Christos actually was a flesh and blood entity who later the catholics made into a god. That's how I see it and until there is evidence to disprove that, it's what I accept. Just one more religion was born in a time that was traumatic for the culture it was born in. Yes I'd fully expect it to be mentioned. However that does not mean that those accounts would still be around 2000 years later and like I said there are many other events that have been shown to have happened that no record has come down to us - for instance we have a written account of the c. 415 eruption of krakatoa and the 1883 eruption of krakatoa but no records have come down to us of extremely violent eruptions in between. Even more recently there were some 11 thousand major movies made during the years up to 1930 and yet 75% of them have disappeared and most of the remaining have losses. So no it does not make me wonder that we have no accounts from non-judeochristian sources of resurrected people. The further back you'd look into records the more appreciative you'd be of how very little survives over time. Yes we've lost a lot of information. I agree. But I still find it highly unlikely that an event of that magnitude could have only been protected and saved by a few christians. So blandie, it's probably time for us to agree to disagree
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 17, 2017 16:45:14 GMT -5
I think I would give it a little more credibility if it was actually mentioned somewhere other than in the bible. If something like that happened in your home town don't you think everyone that could write would be talking about it? But here we have a huge population of people that never even mention such a huge event. The only ones that mention it are the Jews that went on to be labelled as Christians. Doesn't that make you wonder? It makes me wonder. There would have been a large number of walking dead. Why was it a non event for anyone that wasn't a Christian Jew? Trust me, if I saw everyone climbing out of their graves at the local cemetery and they started walking down my street, I'm sure I would pay attention and possibly believe in whatever force could make it happen. Of course nothing would make it certain which god of the many was actually responsible for it. For me, the Christian Jesus is just too much of a copycat story from earlier religions. The Christos is a well known persona among the ancient people. The difference was that Christians said their Christos actually was a flesh and blood entity who later the catholics made into a god. That's how I see it and until there is evidence to disprove that, it's what I accept. Just one more religion was born in a time that was traumatic for the culture it was born in. Yes I'd fully expect it to be mentioned. However that does not mean that those accounts would still be around 2000 years later and like I said there are many other events that have been shown to have happened that no record has come down to us - for instance we have a written account of the c. 415 eruption of krakatoa and the 1883 eruption of krakatoa but no records have come down to us of extremely violent eruptions in between. Even more recently there were some 11 thousand major movies made during the years up to 1930 and yet 75% of them have disappeared and most of the remaining have losses. So no it does not make me wonder that we have no accounts from non-judeochristian sources of resurrected people. The further back you'd look into records the more appreciative you'd be of how very little survives over time. There a huge difference between "resurrection of the dead" and a comparison with the two incidents cited here. "a written account of the c. 415 eruption of krakatoa and the 1883 eruption of krakatoa but no records have come down to us of extremely violent eruptions in between".
"some 11 thousand major movies made during the years up to 1930 and yet 75% of them have disappeared and most of the remaining have losses."
The above incidents are NOT even close to being like the "miracles" of resurrection that are being claimed here. They are incidents that could happen without anything about them being "miraculous!"
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 18, 2017 1:00:04 GMT -5
Actually, why is anyone even discussing this?
It doesn't matter how many people, Christian or Jews, who were there at the time or now many pieces of literature got out or didn't get out during the destruction of the temple and the revolt of the Jews.
The claim of the resurrection of Jesus is just one more claim like all the other claims of resurrections
I am quite sure that no one here would believe in the prior resurrections of Fuke or Aristeas of Proconnesus Resurrection is part of the Christians hope and something to look forward to .... That was WHY Jesus raised from the dead to give the next 2000 years believers hope to believe in Christ will raise them up one of these days! also. Nathan, I am aware of the reason Christians believe in the resurrection! I also know the why they believe it ! They want to believe they will be resurrected themselves!
That doesn't mean it is going to happen!
My point is that stories of resurrections were common in that day amongst all people, - not just Christians! That it was a universal way of thinking, however illogical and without any proof what-so-ever that it did happen!
If someone were to tell you such a story happening to someone TODAY wouldn't you expect some proof?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 18, 2017 1:18:12 GMT -5
It's scary to me how men who did so much for GOD died - I mean the ways they died. Look at tbe terrible suffering Jesus endured and look how John and Paul died. That's something that acares me about GOD ... it's like the more a person does for God the more violent their death. It seems like the men who are commissioed as GOD'S Apostles die the most violent deaths. I just can't understand GOD'S reasoning sometimes. If a person supports GOD Satan is right there to test and try a person out again and again. Yes, it seemed Satan tested and put those early apostles and followers of Jesus through HELL by the horrible way they died.... Some of the Old Testament prophets died by being saw in half, eaten alive by the wild beasts. Nero time, he burned the Christians alive using them as torches at nights, using them as preys eaten by the lions for games.
Over 1000 years, the RCC tortured the heretics (Vaudois, Waldensians, Albigense, Cathars and others) with all kinds machines to cause the most pains before they died..... It showed God that they love him and stay true even unto DEATH. Death is going home for the Christians.
Satan wants to put the fear of death in us so we will give up on God.
Crucifixion (or impalement), in one form or another, was used by Persians, Carthaginians, and Macedonians as well as the Romans long before the time of Jesus.
Since many, many more people were crucified by the Romans than just the followers of Jesus, -why should one think it has anything to do with a "god" or a "Satan" testing the followers of Jesus?
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Post by nathan on Nov 18, 2017 1:55:19 GMT -5
Resurrection is part of the Christians hope and something to look forward to .... That was WHY Jesus raised from the dead to give the next 2000 years believers hope to believe in Christ will raise them up one of these days! also. Nathan, I am aware of the reason Christians believe in the resurrection! I also know the why they believe it ! They want to believe they will be resurrected themselves!
That doesn't mean it is going to happen!
My point is that stories of resurrections were common in that day amongst all people, - not just Christians! That it was a universal way of thinking, however illogical and without any proof what-so-ever that it did happen!
If someone were to tell you such a story happening to someone TODAY wouldn't you expect some proof?
Jesus talked about the resurrections of believers, he raised the dead, the dead came out of the graves.... AND the most important proof of ALL, was Jesus himself raised from the dead, and the apostles and 500 disciples saw him for 40 days after the resurrection with heavenly body! could appear and disappear at will.
We/Christians believed it and just wait for that resurrection day to come! We celebrate Christ's resurrection every first day of the week, to remind us that day will come as He had promised to return for the bride of Christ/the church/believers on the earth.
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Post by nathan on Nov 18, 2017 2:01:53 GMT -5
Yes, it seemed Satan tested and put those early apostles and followers of Jesus through HELL by the horrible way they died.... Some of the Old Testament prophets died by being saw in half, eaten alive by the wild beasts. Nero time, he burned the Christians alive using them as torches at nights, using them as preys eaten by the lions for games.
Over 1000 years, the RCC tortured the heretics (Vaudois, Waldensians, Albigense, Cathars and others) with all kinds machines to cause the most pains before they died..... It showed God that they love him and stay true even unto DEATH. Death is going home for the Christians.
Satan wants to put the fear of death in us so we will give up on God.
Crucifixion (or impalement), in one form or another, was used by Persians, Carthaginians, and Macedonians as well as the Romans long before the time of Jesus.
Since many, many more people were crucified by the Romans than just the followers of Jesus, -why should one think it has anything to do with a "god" or a "Satan" testing the followers of Jesus?
Here is what Jesus told to one of the 7 churches/followers of His in Revelation 2: 8-11 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
~~ Most of the Roman emperors had persecuted the followers of Jesus started with Nero until Emperor Constantine became a Christians in the end of the 3rd century then it ceased for awhile then Satan took over the RCC and the persecution of the Christians continued on for the next 1700 yrs. The Beast= Roman empire/emperors died or ceased their power in the 5th century... But Satan groomed another more powerful beast to continue the persecution of God's people for the next 1700 years under the name of Church and State= RCC. John the apostle revealed about the beast... Read Revelation chapters 14; 17-18.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Dec 21, 2017 0:08:56 GMT -5
*** If Timothy, Silas, Titus were false apostles because the didn't and couldn't do any healing or performing any miracles then WHY? Paul sent them to appoint church elders... Timothy, Titus, Silas, John mark became churches leaders after the death of Paul. Your interpretation of apostleship with miracles for every apostle doesn't make too much sense or scripture sound doctrines. I never said that those were false apostles but just that the bible nowhere says that they are apostles of jesus christ. They were apostles delegated by men - apostles representing elders or churches or paul or whoever actually commissioned and sent them - that they were apostles representing others doesn't make them false but they did not have and were not successors to the authority of the apostles of jesus christ because they weren't eyewitnesses and didn't have the direct commissioning from him and they didn't have the qualifications etc. What would make someone who was an authorized representative of person X a 'false apostle' would be to claim that they are the apostle/representative of person Y or anyone else when they weren't sent by that person or persons at all. Old Will-I did that right in the beginning days when he claimed to be just like the apostle paul - an authorized earthly representative of jesus christ - even tho he had none of the qualifications that paul had. Frank Viola raised a good point in So You Want to Start a House Church? (combined and revised into Reimagining Church) in chapter 11, "Wasn't Paul the Last Church Planter?", regarding the continued calling of apostles: Those words were recorded by the same John who wrote against that Diotrephes, "who loveth to have the preeminence among them", who did not receive "the brethren" who sent to work among the churches.
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Post by nathan on Dec 21, 2017 2:17:27 GMT -5
I never said that those were false apostles but just that the bible nowhere says that they are apostles of jesus christ. They were apostles delegated by men - apostles representing elders or churches or paul or whoever actually commissioned and sent them - that they were apostles representing others doesn't make them false but they did not have and were not successors to the authority of the apostles of jesus christ because they weren't eyewitnesses and didn't have the direct commissioning from him and they didn't have the qualifications etc. What would make someone who was an authorized representative of person X a 'false apostle' would be to claim that they are the apostle/representative of person Y or anyone else when they weren't sent by that person or persons at all. Old Will-I did that right in the beginning days when he claimed to be just like the apostle paul - an authorized earthly representative of jesus christ - even tho he had none of the qualifications that paul had. ~~ Nathan: Here is what Paul called themselves apostles of Christ. Paul, Silas, and Timothy were NOT eyewitnesses and have direct commissioning from Jesus Christ like the 12 and 70 apostles but in I Thess 2: 6-7 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we (Paul, Silas and Timothy) might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ. But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children.
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Post by blandie on Dec 21, 2017 13:28:33 GMT -5
Frank Viola raised a good point in So You Want to Start a House Church? (combined and revised into Reimagining Church) in chapter 11, "Wasn't Paul the Last Church Planter?", regarding the continued calling of apostles: Those words were recorded by the same John who wrote against that Diotrephes, "who loveth to have the preeminence among them", who did not receive "the brethren" who sent to work among the churches. Thats some fair sloppy thinking - by that logic we'd have to assume that because the bible says that there are false christs that there must also be true christs running around. The apostles of christ jesus are the foundation stones of the church - they still perform that function and its beyond silly to re-lay that foundation over and over - you don't get a building or a church by that and todays workers are not commissioned by jesus christ as his emissary and have not been provided by him with the attesting credentials to establish their true apostleship and do not share the qualifications that we are told true apostles of jesus have or much of any of the rest of the features of true apostles - and thats just as true for viola's pentecostal church.
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Post by blandie on Dec 21, 2017 13:39:08 GMT -5
we (Paul, Silas and Timothy) might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ. The verse does not directly say that paul is talking about silas and timothy - you leapt to that conclusion. In any case the word 'we' doesn't actually appear in the original greek sentence - and in addition if you read on down to verse 18 you'll see that paul sometimes is actually indicating himself - and not some group - where the presumed but not literal 'we' gets inserted.
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Post by nathan on Dec 21, 2017 13:51:49 GMT -5
we (Paul, Silas and Timothy) might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ. The verse does not directly say that paul is talking about silas and timothy - you leapt to that conclusion. In any case the word 'we' doesn't actually appear in the original greek sentence - and in addition if you read on down to verse 18 you'll see that paul sometimes is actually indicating himself - and not some group - where the presumed but not literal 'we' gets inserted. *** You need to read chapter 1:1 where Paul include Silus and Timothy as "WE" the apostles of Christ in chapter 2.
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