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Post by mdm on Sept 29, 2014 10:21:17 GMT -5
Well no, in fact that is not what I said. I said that I accept that Rational doesn't believe that the issues discussed have a spiritual dimension, to which you said: Well, pardon me. Only Christians have a spiritual dimension???, to which I replied that it should be obvious that as a Christian I believe that everyone has a spiritual dimension. First you are upset because you think I said that non-Christians don't have a 'spiritual dimension,' then you get upset because you think I said that you 'have' a spiritual dimension. I only said that I 'believe' that you have a 'spiritual dimension.' But why do you believe a person has a spiritual dimension if he says he doesn't? I get a bit off-put when people presume to say something about me that don't believe. You don't like that either. Again, I did not say that. If I assume that somebody said or meant something, and they correct my assumption, I have no reason to keep repeating that they said or meant something else.
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Post by mdm on Sept 29, 2014 10:25:43 GMT -5
Well no, in fact that is not what I said. I said that I accept that Rational doesn't believe that the issues discussed have a spiritual dimension, to which you said: Well, pardon me. Only Christians have a spiritual dimension???, to which I replied that it should be obvious that as a Christian I believe that everyone has a spiritual dimension. First you are upset because you think I said that non-Christians don't have a 'spiritual dimension,' then you get upset because you think I said that you 'have' a spiritual dimension. I only said that I 'believe' that you have a 'spiritual dimension.' No, maja, that isn't only what you said. This what you said. "I mean, think about it: if I am a Christian, that means that I believe that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
I, for one, don't like to be told I have something, "whether (I) they believe it or not,....."
You are taking what I said out of context. Please, next time first go through all the posts and don't make assumptions.
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Post by mdm on Sept 29, 2014 10:30:07 GMT -5
I saw the humour how come you didnt? It's not humor when you're trying to excuse an insult. What was the insult?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2014 13:35:40 GMT -5
But why do you believe a person has a spiritual dimension if he says he doesn't? I get a bit off-put when people presume to say something about me that don't believe. You don't like that either. I have to side with mdm on this one. It is a belief that s/he holds and is entitled to hold that belief. Now if it meant that I was going to be burned at the stake because of her/his belief about me than I would probably be inclined to request some proof! I'm just curious about why people believe things without proof. I was taught (formally) to not believe or do anything without knowing why. Maybe other people aren't.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2014 13:39:55 GMT -5
But why do you believe a person has a spiritual dimension if he says he doesn't? I get a bit off-put when people presume to say something about me that don't believe. You don't like that either. Again, I did not say that. If I assume that somebody said or meant something, and they correct my assumption, I have no reason to keep repeating that they said or meant something else. But you didn't answer my question. You said that, not me, and I'm asking why. I'm not criticizing you, I just want to know why you believe such a thing. Take me at my word now, and trust me to have a real interest in knowing why you made the statement "whether they know it or not".
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2014 13:42:19 GMT -5
It's not humor when you're trying to excuse an insult. What was the insult? I already explained it. Maybe you didn't get it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2014 13:45:22 GMT -5
No, maja, that isn't only what you said. This what you said. "I mean, think about it: if I am a Christian, that means that I believe that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
I, for one, don't like to be told I have something, "whether (I) they believe it or not,....."
You are taking what I said out of context. Please, next time first go through all the posts and don't make assumptions. You don't get it, do you. You tell a person something about them that they don't appreciate, and you expect them to have no response. Manners, lady. And the attitude of "whether you believe it or not" is patently condescending. [Whether you believe it or not]
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 29, 2014 13:51:25 GMT -5
No, maja, that isn't only what you said. This what you said. "I mean, think about it: if I am a Christian, that means that I believe that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
I, for one, don't like to be told I have something, "whether (I) they believe it or not,....."
You are taking what I said out of context. Please, next time first go through all the posts and don't make assumptions. I did follow you posts. Is this that you said an assumption on my part?
You said, that you believe that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,.....,"
If I am taking out of context what you said, perhaps you could explain what you did mean.
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Post by mdm on Sept 29, 2014 14:03:24 GMT -5
You are taking what I said out of context. Please, next time first go through all the posts and don't make assumptions. You don't get it, do you. You tell a person something about them that they don't appreciate, and you expect them to have no response. Manners, lady. And the attitude of "whether you believe it or not" is patently condescending. [Whether you believe it or not] "Manners, lady" is condescending. The only reason why I said that I believe that you have a spiritual dimension was because you thought I said that you don't have one. It was a humourous way to express my being appalled at your saying that I don't believe that you have a spiritual dimension. I would love to apologize if I only knew what for. I am truly sorry that you feel offended.
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Post by mdm on Sept 29, 2014 14:05:41 GMT -5
You are taking what I said out of context. Please, next time first go through all the posts and don't make assumptions. I did follow you posts. Is this that you said an assumption on my part?
You said, that you believe that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,.....,"
If I am taking out of context what you said, perhaps you could explain what you did mean.
I have already tried to explain, but it seems that you would rather keep misunderstanding. I will not waste my time any more.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 29, 2014 14:33:02 GMT -5
I did follow you posts. Is this that you said an assumption on my part?
You said, that you believe that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,.....,"
If I am taking out of context what you said, perhaps you could explain what you did mean.
I have already tried to explain, but it seems that you would rather keep misunderstanding. I will not waste my time any more. Maybe if I turned your quote into this by changing just two words, it might help you understand better how one might feel.
Just Suppose I said this:
"I mean, think about it: if I am a atheist, that means that I believe that no one has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
Now, I am not really saying that, I am only trying to illustrate how your statement can affect other people.
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Post by matisse on Sept 29, 2014 14:38:45 GMT -5
You are taking what I said out of context. Please, next time first go through all the posts and don't make assumptions. You don't get it, do you. You tell a person something about them that they don't appreciate, and you expect them to have no response. Manners, lady. And the attitude of "whether you believe it or not" is patently condescending. [Whether you believe it or not] I have no problem with the statement since maja makes a clear indication that this is a matter of her belief. I might take exception to someone declaring that everyone has a spiritual dimension as a matter of "fact." I do not see that maja has done that. I went around in circles with another poster once because he declared that certain human actions must be "divinely inspired" whether the person believed in God or not. If he had added "I believe" or "it is my point of view" to the beginning of the declaration it would have been acceptable to me. (He never did.)
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2014 14:40:10 GMT -5
You don't get it, do you. You tell a person something about them that they don't appreciate, and you expect them to have no response. Manners, lady. And the attitude of "whether you believe it or not" is patently condescending. [Whether you believe it or not] "Manners, lady" is condescending. The only reason why I said that I believe that you have a spiritual dimension was because you thought I said that you don't have one. It was a humourous way to express my being appalled at your saying that I don't believe that you have a spiritual dimension. I would love to apologize if I only knew what for. I am truly sorry that you feel offended. At least you know condescending when it is directed at you.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2014 14:41:26 GMT -5
You don't get it, do you. You tell a person something about them that they don't appreciate, and you expect them to have no response. Manners, lady. And the attitude of "whether you believe it or not" is patently condescending. [Whether you believe it or not] I have no problem with the statement since maja makes a clear indication that this is a matter of her belief. I might take exception to someone declaring that everyone has a spiritual dimension as a matter of "fact." I do not see that maja has done that. I went around in circles with another poster once because he declared that certain human actions must be "divinely inspired" whether the person believed in God or not. If he had added "I believe" or "it is my point of view" to the beginning of the declaration it would have been acceptable to me. (He never did.) Sorry for putting you all through the exercise. I think I have found what I was looking for.
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Post by matisse on Sept 29, 2014 14:46:15 GMT -5
I have no problem with the statement since maja makes a clear indication that this is a matter of her belief. I might take exception to someone declaring that everyone has a spiritual dimension as a matter of "fact." I do not see that maja has done that. I went around in circles with another poster once because he declared that certain human actions must be "divinely inspired" whether the person believed in God or not. If he had added "I believe" or "it is my point of view" to the beginning of the declaration it would have been acceptable to me. (He never did.) Sorry for putting you all through the exercise. I think I have found what I was looking for. I was hoping my comment would be helpful to dimmichgood as well. I see that her contribution was not included by the quote function.
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Post by SharonArnold on Sept 29, 2014 15:39:00 GMT -5
You are taking what I said out of context. Please, next time first go through all the posts and don't make assumptions. You don't get it, do you. You tell a person something about them that they don't appreciate, and you expect them to have no response. Manners, lady. And the attitude of "whether you believe it or not" is patently condescending. [Whether you believe it or not] I just don't get this whole exchange. I don't see anything even remotely condescending over someone saying "whether you believe it or not". Furthermore, I cannot see anything in the least bit offensive over someone stating that they think people have a spiritual dimension. I also don't see anything remotely offensive over someone stating that they don't believe people have a spiritual dimension. I wouldn't even have a problem with someone stating either of those positions not prefaced by "I believe" or "I think". You don't believe you have a spiritual dimension? So what? You believe that you do? So what? All kinds of people have all kinds of opinions about you all the time that do not necessarily mesh with how you see yourself. So what? It would be different if they expressed an opinion/belief/"observation" that had moral/legal consequences. But having a "spiritual dimension" would not be one of those.
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Post by mdm on Sept 29, 2014 15:51:37 GMT -5
I have already tried to explain, but it seems that you would rather keep misunderstanding. I will not waste my time any more. Maybe if I turned your quote into this by changing just two words, it might help you understand better how one might feel.
Just Suppose I said this:
"I mean, think about it: if I am a atheist, that means that I believe that no one has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
Now, I am not really saying that, I am only trying to illustrate how your statement can affect other people.
Again, that was just a funny way to answer a question that came across to me as weird and uncalled for. To answer your question, NO, I would not be offended, upset or accuse you of being condescending for telling me what you believe or think, in this case that there is nothing in me that exists independent of the body and that lives on after the death of the body (spiritual dimension). How could your belief affect me?? And why would I chose to participate in a forum pertaining to a religious group, with participants of different persuasions or without a sense of humor if I were to get upset over what they believe and think?
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Post by rational on Sept 29, 2014 15:58:08 GMT -5
Maybe if I turned your quote into this by changing just two words, it might help you understand better how one might feel.
Just Suppose I said this:
"I mean, think about it: if I am a atheist, that means that I believe that no one has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
Now, I am not really saying that, I am only trying to illustrate how your statement can affect other people.
Again, that was just a funny way to answer a question that came across to me as weird and uncalled for. To answer your question, NO, I would not be offended, upset or accuse you of being condescending for telling me what you believe or think, in this case that there is nothing in me that exists independent of the body and that lives on after the death of the body (spiritual dimension). How could your belief affect me?? And why would I chose to participate in a forum pertaining to a religious group, with participants of different persuasions or without a sense of humor if I were to get upset over what they believe and think? But you did call me making a post rude when I responded to one of your posts in a way that you did not think fit into the conversation as you thought it should. Different things pust people's buttons in different ways.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 29, 2014 20:16:58 GMT -5
Maybe if I turned your quote into this by changing just two words, it might help you understand better how one might feel.
Just Suppose I said this:
"I mean, think about it: if I am a atheist, that means that I believe that no one has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
Now, I am not really saying that, I am only trying to illustrate how your statement can affect other people.
Again, that was just a funny way to answer a question that came across to me as weird and uncalled for. To answer your question, NO, I would not be offended, upset or accuse you of being condescending for telling me what you believe or think, in this case that there is nothing in me that exists independent of the body and that lives on after the death of the body (spiritual dimension). How could your belief affect me?? And why would I chose to participate in a forum pertaining to a religious group, with participants of different persuasions or You still don't get it, maja.
It isn't to do with you telling me what you believe, -it isn't to do with me telling you what I believe. It is the phrase that you now keep leaving out of your original statement.
You tell us what you believe, "that you believe that everyone has a "spiritual dimension." Ok. I have no problem with that. If that is what you believe, -that is what you believe!
It is the add-on phrase which you conveniently now ignore, "that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
I simply do not like to be told by anyone that just because they believe something is true, in this case, "that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," that indeed I do have what they claim "whether I believe it or not......"
It is as if it simply doesn't matter what I believe!
What is so "funny" or "weird" about my question? I had hoped that if I could made a like statement of your original statement, that you would be able to see how another person might feel.
I also don't understand how you think that this has anything to do with having a sense of humor.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2014 20:53:16 GMT -5
Maybe if I turned your quote into this by changing just two words, it might help you understand better how one might feel.
Just Suppose I said this:
"I mean, think about it: if I am a atheist, that means that I believe that no one has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
Now, I am not really saying that, I am only trying to illustrate how your statement can affect other people.
Again, that was just a funny way to answer a question that came across to me as weird and uncalled for. To answer your question, NO, I would not be offended, upset or accuse you of being condescending for telling me what you believe or think, in this case that there is nothing in me that exists independent of the body and that lives on after the death of the body (spiritual dimension). How could your belief affect me?? And why would I chose to participate in a forum pertaining to a religious group, with participants of different persuasions or without a sense of humor if I were to get upset over what they believe and think? That's the whole point - it was just because YOU thought it was weird, so it became humor. And because you didn't want to answer questions about it, we were scolded for butting in. But it's okay. I figured out how it works. I may still be asking some weird questions, though.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2014 20:58:28 GMT -5
Again, that was just a funny way to answer a question that came across to me as weird and uncalled for. To answer your question, NO, I would not be offended, upset or accuse you of being condescending for telling me what you believe or think, in this case that there is nothing in me that exists independent of the body and that lives on after the death of the body (spiritual dimension). How could your belief affect me?? And why would I chose to participate in a forum pertaining to a religious group, with participants of different persuasions or You still don't get it, maja.
It isn't to do with you telling me what you believe, -it isn't to do with me telling you what I believe. It is the phrase that you now keep leaving out of your original statement.
You tell us what you believe, "that you believe that everyone has a "spiritual dimension." Ok. I have no problem with that. If that is what you believe, -that is what you believe!
It is the add-on phrase which you conveniently now ignore, "that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
I simply do not like to be told by anyone that just because they believe something is true, in this case, "that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," that indeed I do have what they claim "whether I believe it or not......"
It is as if it simply doesn't matter what I believe!
What is so "funny" or "weird" about my question? I had hoped that if I could made a like statement of your original statement, that you would be able to see how another person might feel.
I also don't understand how you think that this has anything to do with having a sense of humor.
Didn't you know you were just weird and silly to start with?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2014 21:07:49 GMT -5
Again, that was just a funny way to answer a question that came across to me as weird and uncalled for. To answer your question, NO, I would not be offended, upset or accuse you of being condescending for telling me what you believe or think, in this case that there is nothing in me that exists independent of the body and that lives on after the death of the body (spiritual dimension). How could your belief affect me?? And why would I chose to participate in a forum pertaining to a religious group, with participants of different persuasions or without a sense of humor if I were to get upset over what they believe and think? But you did call me making a post rude when I responded to one of your posts in a way that you did not think fit into the conversation as you thought it should. Different things pust people's buttons in different ways. Rational, you are exactly right. I actually took no personal offense from anything that has been written on this theme, but when people are as rude as they want to be with others but can't accept criticism for it -- that ticks me off. It's the dismissive comments that come at the end of otherwise decent sentences that show attitude. I can accept it much easier for myself than I can tolerate it being used on others.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 29, 2014 22:47:10 GMT -5
You still don't get it, maja.
It isn't to do with you telling me what you believe, -it isn't to do with me telling you what I believe. It is the phrase that you now keep leaving out of your original statement.
You tell us what you believe, "that you believe that everyone has a "spiritual dimension." Ok. I have no problem with that. If that is what you believe, -that is what you believe!
It is the add-on phrase which you conveniently now ignore, "that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," whether they believe it or not,....."
I simply do not like to be told by anyone that just because they believe something is true, in this case, "that everyone has a "spiritual dimension," that indeed I do have what they claim "whether I believe it or not......"
It is as if it simply doesn't matter what I believe!
What is so "funny" or "weird" about my question? I had hoped that if I could made a like statement of your original statement, that you would be able to see how another person might feel.
I also don't understand how you think that this has anything to do with having a sense of humor.
Didn't you know you were just weird and silly to start with? Yeh, Yeh, I know! I've been told often enough!
I would like to play the "age card," but actually I think that I've always been "weird"
You know, when I was in school & had to dress different than everyone else.
When I was "professing" yet wanted to get a better education than others professing than my age group.
In nurses training when I would want to work Christmas & Easter so I could have the Sunday Special meeting off instead! (Man, that was really weird!)
Geeze, how it did go on!
Too much a part of me to change now, I'm afraid!
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 29, 2014 22:50:17 GMT -5
Sorry for putting you all through the exercise. I think I have found what I was looking for. I was hoping my comment would be helpful to dimmichgood as well. I see that her contribution was not included by the quote function. Thanks Matisse. I think I understand what you mean.
She did tick me off though.
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Post by ellie on Sept 30, 2014 4:58:01 GMT -5
The problem with your Bible approach is that there is more non-Christian sexuality sanctioned than Christian sexual conduct. Rape, incest, fornication, plural marriage, you name it. Where exactly does the bible sanction rape? I probably don't want the average public school teacher giving that explanation. Perhaps one day I'll be having a crack at explaining the Song of Songs so feel free to laugh in advance. It is a beautiful piece of literature though IMO.
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Post by rational on Sept 30, 2014 9:14:15 GMT -5
The problem with your Bible approach is that there is more non-Christian sexuality sanctioned than Christian sexual conduct. Rape, incest, fornication, plural marriage, you name it. Where exactly does the bible sanction rape? In 2 Samuel 12 the victims were delivered to the neighbor who had sex with them in view of everyone. Of course you could argue that David's wives went willingly but I think it would be a difficult thing to support. And then there are a number of times when god said kill everything but the virgins and they could keep them for themselves. In Judges 21 after they divided the virgins some of the men did not have one so they went and hid in the vineyards and kidnapped the young women to fill the gap. Sanctioned is a good word. Or condoned. They both would be accurate.
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Post by xna on Sept 30, 2014 9:39:02 GMT -5
Where exactly does the bible sanction rape? In 2 Samuel 12 the victims were delivered to the neighbor who had sex with them in view of everyone. Of course you could argue that David's wives went willingly but I think it would be a difficult thing to support. And then there are a number of times when god said kill everything but the virgins and they could keep them for themselves. In Judges 21 after they divided the virgins some of the men did not have one so they went and hid in the vineyards and kidnapped the young women to fill the gap. Sanctioned is a good word. Or condoned. They both would be accurate. Also a sure fire way to marry that pretty girl who won't let you take her to the prom. Deuteronomy 22
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Post by mdm on Sept 30, 2014 12:26:56 GMT -5
Again, that was just a funny way to answer a question that came across to me as weird and uncalled for. To answer your question, NO, I would not be offended, upset or accuse you of being condescending for telling me what you believe or think, in this case that there is nothing in me that exists independent of the body and that lives on after the death of the body (spiritual dimension). How could your belief affect me?? And why would I chose to participate in a forum pertaining to a religious group, with participants of different persuasions or without a sense of humor if I were to get upset over what they believe and think? But you did call me making a post rude when I responded to one of your posts in a way that you did not think fit into the conversation as you thought it should. Different things pust people's buttons in different ways. You are absolutely right. I should not have said it was 'rude.' I apologize.
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