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Post by bubbles on Sept 23, 2014 7:50:08 GMT -5
I was pregnant before marriage. I was 18yr. The workers stopped us both partaking of the emblems. Presumably because of fornication. I didn't have issue with that. But 3yrs later new workers asked why dont you take the bread and wine. When we told them why they told us it shouldn't have gone on so long and to start again. In yrs of attending other churches and leadership I didn't ever see this happen to anyone. No one was asking to stop partaking. The emblems are in remembrance of the shed blood of Christ and remission of sin. It would make more sense to partake than not. These kind of stuff ups can hinder a persons relationship with the lord.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 9:03:42 GMT -5
when i was shunned for fornication they did the same to me no partaking or taking part in meetings it lasted six months...it was a just punishment did you get married? that should have fixed the problem in my estimation...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 23, 2014 11:06:20 GMT -5
Well, this makes me very angry! Why? Well, we know that there are workers who have fornicated a bunch of times and never gave up preaching or never gave up the emblems! They attach burdens to hard for people to bear and won't lift a finger to help those they put the burdens on. Isn't this what Jesus was upset about? The very idea that the workers could do and get by with worse things then the friends do. I suppose if one would investigate they might just find that some of the workers who have put hard burdens on the friends are the very workers who have fornicated even to the sum of an illigetimate child, that is being raised by some of the friends as thei r own child! Yep, that happens also. IF one of the sister workers end up pregnant by one of the brother workers, she is often sent overseas until she has her baby and then she is allowed to come home on a home visit and often keeps her foreign field work after that!
Some have admitted to a double digit number of "affairs", etc.....is this fair, is this relieving the burdens that the workers have placed on the friends when they've fornicated? It is all about the evidence that hasn't been made a secret! Yep! workers' affairs are kept secret but the friends affairs are made very public to the point of embarrassing the friends sometimes right on out of the fellowship! Is it not Jesus' part to forgive their sins? And since he died for mankind sins, then that includes all sins except the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost......so when workers take it in their mind and hands to make the erring friends a public embarrassment is that not bypassing what Jesus taught? If Jesus forgives, If the Father forgives, why do the workers nag the sins over the sinner for a number of days, months and even years?
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Post by mdm on Sept 23, 2014 12:01:04 GMT -5
I was pregnant before marriage. I was 18yr. The workers stopped us both partaking of the emblems. Presumably because of fornication. I didn't have issue with that. But 3yrs later new workers asked why dont you take the bread and wine. When we told them why they told us it shouldn't have gone on so long and to start again. In yrs of attending other churches and leadership I didn't ever see this happen to anyone. No one was asking to stop partaking. The emblems are in remembrance of the shed blood of Christ and remission of sin. It would make more sense to partake than not. These kind of stuff ups can hinder a persons relationship with the lord. As sharingtheriches has pointed out, it's the double standards that are most upsetting to me. Seems that in other churches it's expected of ministers to "uphold the standard" and live up to it, more so than of regular members. In 2x2 church though, I've been told that senior workers tend to express sympathy for the workers found in immorality, because they "know that it can happen to anyone." Apparently, this only applies to (celibate) ministers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 12:29:17 GMT -5
This is a tricky one to deal with. I think that people should be allowed to partake of the emblems if they feel that they are worthy of so doing, it is not for others, in my opinion, to judge who is and who is not worthy. In the end, God is the righteous judge and will judge and mete out punishment accordingly. It has caused me to think about what is written in Revelations 22: 14,15. 14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter into the city.15: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and ladymongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I have noticed that fornicators and adulterers are not specifically mentioned there, that is a little puzzling because as I understand it, fornication and adultery are sinful acts, aren't they?
Double standards are most definitely unacceptable in any church family, if it is wrong for one it must be wrong for all others, God has no favorites when it comes to sinful acts and wrong doing. However, He is compassionate and forgiving to those who repent and ask for His forgiveness for any wrong doing.
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Post by rational on Sept 23, 2014 13:11:05 GMT -5
I was pregnant before marriage. I was 18yr. The workers stopped us both partaking of the emblems. Presumably because of fornication. I think your crime was your failure to use birth control. Had you been using birth control there would have been no problem. Your 'crime' was getting caught!
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Post by mdm on Sept 23, 2014 13:44:20 GMT -5
This is a tricky one to deal with. I think that people should be allowed to partake of the emblems if they feel that they are worthy of so doing, it is not for others, in my opinion, to judge who is and who is not worthy. In the end, God is the righteous judge and will judge and mete out punishment accordingly. It has caused me to think about what is written in Revelations 22: 14,15. 14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter into the city.15: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and ladymongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I have noticed that fornicators and adulterers are not specifically mentioned there, that is a little puzzling because as I understand it, fornication and adultery are sinful acts, aren't they? Double standards are most definitely unacceptable in any church family, if it is wrong for one it must be wrong for all others, God has no favorites when it comes to sinful acts and wrong doing. However, He is compassionate and forgiving to those who repent and ask for His forgiveness for any wrong doing. I'm not sure which translation you are using. 'Ladymongers' is usually translated as 'ladymogners' ladymongers (KJV), 'sexually immoral,' 'fornicators.' So, yes, fornication and adultery are included. No, I don't think that repented-of sexual immorality has an eternal consequence, but imposing a temporary consequence by church authorities, I can understand. As long as those in place of authority receive a greater consequence for the same thing, not lesser or equal.
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Post by mdm on Sept 23, 2014 13:51:17 GMT -5
The silly editor is not letting me write 'ladymonger' and keeps changing it to 'ladymonger'!!!
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Post by mdm on Sept 23, 2014 13:53:15 GMT -5
It did it again! Ok how about this: I'm not sure which translation you are using. 'Ladymongers' is usually translated as 'w.h.o.r.e. mongers'(KJV), 'sexually immoral,' 'fornicators.' So, yes, fornication and adultery are included. No, I don't think that repented-of sexual immorality has an eternal consequence, but imposing a temporary consequence by church authorities, I can understand. As long as those in place of authority receive a greater consequence for the same thing, not lesser or equal.
Now I see which translation you used - TMB!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 14:00:47 GMT -5
That's very funny, I am using the Authorised King James Version, and the word beginning with W-h-o-r monger is in it but ladymonger is being printed, here, obviously some words are being censored. Never mind I do understand what you mean
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Post by rational on Sept 23, 2014 14:42:32 GMT -5
The silly editor is not letting me write 'ladymonger' and keeps changing it to 'ladymonger'!!! Try who remonger.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 23, 2014 16:17:09 GMT -5
It did it again! Ok how about this: I'm not sure which translation you are using. 'Ladymongers' is usually translated as 'w.h.o.r.e. mongers'(KJV), 'sexually immoral,' 'fornicators.' So, yes, fornication and adultery are included. No, I don't think that repented-of sexual immorality has an eternal consequence, but imposing a temporary consequence by church authorities, I can understand. As long as those in place of authority receive a greater consequence for the same thing, not lesser or equal. Now I see which translation you used - TMB! I saw a transcript of a funeral service in California one time. It had been transmitted electronically and I was the longest time figuring out who "Thingy Middleton" was. He/She had a lot to say at the funeral.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 23, 2014 16:24:36 GMT -5
I know of a Catholic Church where the priest announced that the eucharist was not for anyone who had not been confirmed by the church. My fellow teacher was highly offended - he was an Anglican.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 16:54:17 GMT -5
I know of a Catholic Church where the priest announced that the eucharist was not for anyone who had not been confirmed by the church. My fellow teacher was highly offended - he was an Anglican. Not surprising, if I am not mistaken, did the Anglicans not break away from the Catholics? And the Methodists from the Anglicans? And what about the WesleyianHoliness?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 23, 2014 17:12:55 GMT -5
Wally Yes of course we got married.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 23, 2014 17:19:48 GMT -5
Well, this makes me very angry! Why? Well, we know that there are workers who have fornicated a bunch of times and never gave up preaching or never gave up the emblems! They attach burdens to hard for people to bear and won't lift a finger to help those they put the burdens on. Isn't this what Jesus was upset about? The very idea that the workers could do and get by with worse things then the friends do. I suppose if one would investigate they might just find that some of the workers who have put hard burdens on the friends are the very workers who have fornicated even to the sum of an illigetimate child, that is being raised by some of the friends as thei r own child! Yep, that happens also. IF one of the sister workers end up pregnant by one of the brother workers, she is often sent overseas until she has her baby and then she is allowed to come home on a home visit and often keeps her foreign field work after that! Some have admitted to a double digit number of "affairs", etc.....is this fair, is this relieving the burdens that the workers have placed on the friends when they've fornicated? It is all about the evidence that hasn't been made a secret! Yep! workers' affairs are kept secret but the friends affairs are made very public to the point of embarrassing the friends sometimes right on out of the fellowship! Is it not Jesus' part to forgive their sins? And since he died for mankind sins, then that includes all sins except the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost......so when workers take it in their mind and hands to make the erring friends a public embarrassment is that not bypassing what Jesus taught? If Jesus forgives, If the Father forgives, why do the workers nag the sins over the sinner for a number of days, months and even years? Str You make comments I hadnt thought of when I wrote the posts. Yes it is astounding. Back in those days workers were squeeky clean. I think the first worker scandle I heard was a couple of yrs later a worker returned from asia married.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 23, 2014 17:26:54 GMT -5
I was pregnant before marriage. I was 18yr. The workers stopped us both partaking of the emblems. Presumably because of fornication. I think your crime was your failure to use birth control. Had you been using birth control there would have been no problem. Your 'crime' was getting caught! I never considered myself a criminal. Most of the young ones were sexually active. I was too afraid to go to the doc incase someone saw me and told Mum. The workers helped with the wedding and my family did have a good relationship with them probably another reason they obeyed everything suggested re wedding. They wanted it to be a quiet wedding not showy. Not in a wedding reception. That didnt bother me I had never dreamed of a white wedding. I grew up thinking white weddings and engagement rings were worldly.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 23, 2014 17:32:46 GMT -5
I know of a Catholic Church where the priest announced that the eucharist was not for anyone who had not been confirmed by the church. My fellow teacher was highly offended - he was an Anglican. Not surprising, if I am not mistaken, did the Anglicans not break away from the Catholics? And the Methodists from the Anglicans? And what about the WesleyianHoliness? Technically the Anglicans didn't break away from the Catholics -- they stopped recognizing the Pope as having authority over the whole church. As far as the Anglican church is concerned they are "in communion" with the Catholic church, just not recognizing the Pope's authority. In their services they refer to themselves as the catholic church. It's hard to keep track of who broke away from who, but certainly all the western Protestant denominations did descent from the Roman Catholic church.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 23, 2014 17:35:20 GMT -5
It did it again! Ok how about this: I'm not sure which translation you are using. 'Ladymongers' is usually translated as 'w.h.o.r.e. mongers'(KJV), 'sexually immoral,' 'fornicators.' So, yes, fornication and adultery are included. No, I don't think that repented-of sexual immorality has an eternal consequence, but imposing a temporary consequence by church authorities, I can understand. As long as those in place of authority receive a greater consequence for the same thing, not lesser or equal. Now I see which translation you used - TMB! I new when I repented I was forgiven. My motherinlaw left notes on the return of the honeymoon. "What is fornication? " "What is adultery?" I didnt think she knew the answer. My own parents never judged me. In fact they were over the moon their first grandchild was on the way. I lived with the shame of guilt for many long yrs.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 23, 2014 17:41:46 GMT -5
If a young couple had come to me with this problem while I was in church leadership I would have encouraged them to partake based on Christ forgiving a repented heart.
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Post by fixit on Sept 23, 2014 17:42:34 GMT -5
We should partake in a worthy manner, but is anyone worthy of the emblems?
Is anyone worthy to tell another that they're not worthy?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 18:13:36 GMT -5
Wally Yes of course we got married. then it sounds like you slipped through the cracks cause if you got married that should have fixed the problem, 3 years is way too long...did you keep bringing it up to the workers or were you silent about it?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 19:20:51 GMT -5
Not surprising, if I am not mistaken, did the Anglicans not break away from the Catholics? And the Methodists from the Anglicans? And what about the WesleyianHoliness? Technically the Anglicans didn't break away from the Catholics -- they stopped recognizing the Pope as having authority over the whole church. As far as the Anglican church is concerned they are "in communion" with the Catholic church, just not recognizing the Pope's authority. In their services they refer to themselves as the catholic church. It's hard to keep track of who broke away from who, but certainly all the western Protestant denominations did descent from the Roman Catholic church. Yes I stand corrected about the Anglican and Catholic Church. I have attended some funerals in Anglican Churches and they still recite the Apostles' creed that mentions their belief in Holy Catholic Church.
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Post by mdm on Sept 23, 2014 20:19:44 GMT -5
I never considered myself a criminal. Most of the young ones were sexually active. I was too afraid to go to the doc incase someone saw me and told Mum. The workers helped with the wedding and my family did have a good relationship with them probably another reason they obeyed everything suggested re wedding. They wanted it to be a quiet wedding not showy. Not in a wedding reception. That didnt bother me I had never dreamed of a white wedding. I grew up thinking white weddings and engagement rings were worldly. This blows me away: "Most of the young ones were sexually active." You really mean to say that most professing not married young people were sexually active??? OK, I've heard it happens, but would have never dreamed that it would be prevalent.
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Post by mdm on Sept 23, 2014 20:23:14 GMT -5
The silly editor is not letting me write 'ladymonger' and keeps changing it to 'ladymonger'!!! Try who remonger. That's exactly what I did, just like Partaker, but it didn't work for us. The change to 'ladymonger' happened after we pressed "create post,' not before - the draft version shows the original word, but it gets changed in the post. The same when I tried to edit it.
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Post by mdm on Sept 23, 2014 20:29:15 GMT -5
It did it again! Ok how about this: I'm not sure which translation you are using. 'Ladymongers' is usually translated as 'w.h.o.r.e. mongers'(KJV), 'sexually immoral,' 'fornicators.' So, yes, fornication and adultery are included. No, I don't think that repented-of sexual immorality has an eternal consequence, but imposing a temporary consequence by church authorities, I can understand. As long as those in place of authority receive a greater consequence for the same thing, not lesser or equal. Now I see which translation you used - TMB! I new when I repented I was forgiven. My motherinlaw left notes on the return of the honeymoon. "What is fornication? " "What is adultery?" I didnt think she knew the answer. My own parents never judged me. In fact they were over the moon their first grandchild was on the way. I lived with the shame of guilt for many long yrs. Sorry you lived with shame for years
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Post by mdm on Sept 23, 2014 20:40:08 GMT -5
Not surprising, if I am not mistaken, did the Anglicans not break away from the Catholics? And the Methodists from the Anglicans? And what about the WesleyianHoliness? Technically the Anglicans didn't break away from the Catholics -- they stopped recognizing the Pope as having authority over the whole church. As far as the Anglican church is concerned they are "in communion" with the Catholic church, just not recognizing the Pope's authority. In their services they refer to themselves as the catholic church. It's hard to keep track of who broke away from who, but certainly all the western Protestant denominations did descent from the Roman Catholic church. While Anglicans did not directly break away from RCC, they grew out of the Church of England, which of course broke away from RCC. Remember the story... the pope wouldn't let King Henry VIII annul a marriage. But yes, they are "in communion," just like they are with Orthodox churches.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 23, 2014 21:30:34 GMT -5
Technically the Anglicans didn't break away from the Catholics -- they stopped recognizing the Pope as having authority over the whole church. As far as the Anglican church is concerned they are "in communion" with the Catholic church, just not recognizing the Pope's authority. In their services they refer to themselves as the catholic church. It's hard to keep track of who broke away from who, but certainly all the western Protestant denominations did descent from the Roman Catholic church. While Anglicans did not directly break away from RCC, they grew out of the Church of England, which of course broke away from RCC. Remember the story... the pope wouldn't let King Henry VIII annul a marriage. But yes, they are "in communion," just like they are with Orthodox churches. The Anglican Church didn't grow out of the Church of England, it IS and always WAS the Church of England. "Anglican" means "English". It's the English Catholic Church, protesting against the domination of the Bishop of Rome. And no, it wasn't technically a break at all - more like an estrangement.
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