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Post by bubbles on Nov 7, 2014 5:00:51 GMT -5
Thanks Ross, This last post conforms to pattern. scandal, coercion, a little horror/shame and....... more ross. Review do I need to post again to get an answer? Maybe you better add me to your summary of Ross, because as I have stated but you didn't reply to there are a lot of people that have had the same experience as Ross. So what is your opinion on a worker not remembering the name of the person who's funeral they are taking? Roz Thats scary. I have a question. Why are workers taking funerals of people they barely know. Why is it that workers who have known the person many many yrs are not brought in? I have an issue with this.
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 7, 2014 5:35:52 GMT -5
Yes. I also appreciate that he posts under his real name, something I am not (yet) brave enough to do, because of the stigma of being on here. However, our agreement or disagreement on that small point by no means reflects whether we in general have commonality of perspective or view. How you have answered makes your perspective clear, thank you! I understand why you post as you do. Wishes to you! I doubt you understand why I "post as I do" any more than I understand the motivation behind your posts. But I'm glad I was able to make my perspective somewhat clear at least. And thanks for the wishes! AB
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 7, 2014 5:54:49 GMT -5
Review do I need to post again to get an answer? Maybe you better add me to your summary of Ross, because as I have stated but you didn't reply to there are a lot of people that have had the same experience as Ross. So what is your opinion on a worker not remembering the name of the person who's funeral they are taking? Roz Thats scary. I have a question. Why are workers taking funerals of people they barely know. Why is it that workers who have known the person many many yrs are not brought in? I have an issue with this. The sad part of it Bubbles was he had know her most of his life ! Her Husband came out from Ireland in 1924 & his family were professing in Ireland ! So they were a well known family !
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 7, 2014 6:17:14 GMT -5
I appreciate that there are things we agree on. Review, you have mastered the art of trolling and many folk on here in their sincerity bite at every attempt. The quality of a thread is inversely proportional to the amount of times you post in it. The sad thing is, he is the only online worker presence I know of, and reaches more people than a gospel meeting mission ever could.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 7:11:02 GMT -5
I appreciate that there are things we agree on. Review, you have mastered the art of trolling and many folk on here in their sincerity bite at every attempt. The quality of a thread is inversely proportional to the amount of times you post in it. Is this a compliment or a put down?
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Post by snow on Nov 7, 2014 12:09:12 GMT -5
Review, you have mastered the art of trolling and many folk on here in their sincerity bite at every attempt. The quality of a thread is inversely proportional to the amount of times you post in it. The sad thing is, he is the only online worker presence I know of, and reaches more people than a gospel meeting mission ever could. It's always good to know what's in their hearts so you can make informed decisions, don't you think? Most of the time when I see these posts he makes it makes me feel like reaching out and giving him a hug. He seems so very unhappy and that's why the responses are what they are possibly?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 12:15:27 GMT -5
Roz Thats scary. I have a question. Why are workers taking funerals of people they barely know. Why is it that workers who have known the person many many yrs are not brought in? I have an issue with this. Review005 suggested I have a holiday today so I'll have to disappoint him again. I have not written about this situation before but it is an insight into the thinking and behaviour of Head and senior workers and the unusual way in which situations are often handled. Prior to writing to Clyde Mackay and getting the response previously posted, my first main interaction with him was when I spoke to him after an older professing lady, Mrs Press, had died unexpectedly. It was early September, 1996. She was a lovely lady, hadn't been professing for more than a few years and her daughter, Glenys, had also been professing for only a few years. When she died Clyde Mackay advised her daughter that the workers would not officiate at her funeral. The reason was simply that Mrs Press had requested that she be cremated, not buried. This caused Glenys and the family a huge amount of distress and hurt at a time when they were suffering incredible sadness at the loss of their Mum. We knew Glenys well and I and a number of others spoke to Glenys to express our disappointment that Clyde M would make such a hurtful decision. Glenys had subsequently decided, after hearing Clyde's refusal to officiate, to engage a local pastor who had ministered to her mother in her last weeks of sickness. I decided that I would call Clyde M and placed a call to him at 5:15pm on 2nd September 1996. I indicated to him that many professing friends were wondering why he would not take Mrs Press' funeral and asked him why he had made that decision. At first he hedged and indicated that Glenys did not want the workers to take the funeral. I said that this was not correct and that the workers were her first request. He then admitted that the real reason was that they would not officiate at a cremation. I asked why. He gave the following reasons. - he could not understand why Mrs Press would want to be cremated as anyone who believed in cremation could not believe in the resurrection (when I expressed surprise at this view he indicated that it would not be possible for God to put the body together so when the graves are opened at the ressurection that the person would rise to meet Christ) - Jesus was not cremated (I pointed out it was Jewish custom to bury) - cremation is not mentioned in the Bible except Achan and Saul (I pointed out Jonathan was also cremated) - it would be highly embarrassing for him to speak at a crematorium ie embarrassing in front of the friends. I asked him about workers, including NSW workers, who had been cremated in Japan and Asian countries. Did he not think that they would rise to meet Christ at the resurrection? He did not comment. I asked him about US workers who I knew had officiated at cremations of the friends. He said that they were not dictated to by what US workers did or what happened in other countries. I indicated that other Christian churches did not have a problem with cremation but he answered that "we don't really want to be following the Catholics or other churches". So, I expressed my disappointment and that of other friends and we said goodbye. The conversation was cordial. I indicated to him that if he felt so strongly about it then the workers should preach it from the platform or write out to the friends. He did not respond to this feedback. The next day he called me back to indicate that they were now willing to take the service and he had called Glenys to that effect. Of course, he knew that Glenys had already asked a Christian minister. He did not indicate why he had changed his mind. At Mrs Press' funeral which was taken by her pastor, Clyde and his companion were in attendance. A few of the friends expressed their disappointment to him that they hadn't taken the funeral. Of course, it made no difference to Mrs Press who had been saved by the grace of God by her faith in Christ as her Saviour and Redeemer. In the following year, two workers spoke to me about the problem with cremation. It was simply this - that God couldn't possibly put a body together again that had been cremated and the person who had been cremated could not be resurrected. I simply replied - what you are saying is that the God of the universe who created everything and created man from the dust of the earth cannot put a body back together again. There was no response. Written from File Note dated September 1996. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ the workers here officiate at cremations i know of a lady that was cremated and my own aunt and uncle were cremated and the workers were there officiating
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 13:22:24 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 14:33 , God is not the author of confusion, but peace, as in all churches of saints. However there is much confusion in churches everywhere; even confusion relating to customs and practices in the same churches located in different areas of the world. One noticeable, almost universal, practice in the F&W fellowship is that quieted spirit just before meetings, even coughing seems to stop and one could almost hear a pin dropped.
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 7, 2014 18:16:50 GMT -5
The sad thing is, he is the only online worker presence I know of, and reaches more people than a gospel meeting mission ever could. It's always good to know what's in their hearts so you can make informed decisions, don't you think? Most of the time when I see these posts he makes it makes me feel like reaching out and giving him a hug. He seems so very unhappy and that's why the responses are what they are possibly? Yet another concrete illustration of why you are such a better person than me. For the most part, when I see his posts, I feel like reaching out and giving him a smack. However, I DO believe that he is a really good person - and I would wish for him the courage to do whatever he needs in order to feel freedom, peace and joy. (Even if it does not quite line up with the way I see the world.)
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 7, 2014 18:33:38 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 14:33 , God is not the author of confusion, but peace, as in all churches of saints. However there is much confusion in churches everywhere; even confusion relating to customs and practices in the same churches located in different areas of the world. One noticeable, almost universal, practice in the F&W fellowship is that quieted spirit just before meetings, even coughing seems to stop and one could almost hear a pin dropped. I loved the quiet before the meetings, and still totally get it. Moving into the silence. Dropping all judgements of myself and others. Dropping all thoughts of the past and of the future. Here, right here, right now. Just as I am. "In thy light I stand." Very powerful. Rachel Naomi Remen, in her writings, references "Silence gathering in me, connected to silence everywhere." I get this.
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Post by snow on Nov 7, 2014 20:19:17 GMT -5
It's always good to know what's in their hearts so you can make informed decisions, don't you think? Most of the time when I see these posts he makes it makes me feel like reaching out and giving him a hug. He seems so very unhappy and that's why the responses are what they are possibly? Yet another concrete illustration of why you are such a better person than me. For the most part, when I see his posts, I feel like reaching out and giving him a smack. However, I DO believe that he is a really good person - and I would wish for him the courage to do whatever he needs in order to feel freedom, peace and joy. (Even if it does not quite line up with the way I see the world.) Well I don't think I'm any better than you. I still have a knee jerk reaction when I read his posts, like everyone else I imagine. It has caused me to not like how he makes me feel and I decided to reach to a deeper level and see if I could understand a little better. I'm not sure I do, and I could be totally wrong about his unhappiness. It's just how he comes across to me and that makes me sad. Then I just feel like I would like to comfort him.
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Post by tom on Nov 7, 2014 23:59:03 GMT -5
Thanks Ross, This last post conforms to pattern. scandal, coercion, a little horror/shame and....... more ross. Review do I need to post again to get an answer? Maybe you better add me to your summary of Ross, because as I have stated but you didn't reply to there are a lot of people that have had the same experience as Ross. So what is your opinion on a worker not remembering the name of the person who's funeral they are taking? How about ' alzheimers' . I might be wrong dont I think it is something thats actively encouraged amongst workers!!
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Post by bubbles on Nov 8, 2014 12:51:25 GMT -5
Roz Its preps time in NZ
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Post by Mary on Nov 9, 2014 21:20:43 GMT -5
This thread has died. Our friend review005 has gone. Has he been banned from this board or is he at preps and just taking a needed break from the board? He didn't even say good bye
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 10, 2014 0:02:17 GMT -5
So do I send a bunch a flowers or a bunch of fives his way?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 2:52:53 GMT -5
So do I send a bunch a flowers or a bunch of fives his way? r the fives dollars?
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Post by bubbles on Nov 10, 2014 4:03:05 GMT -5
Curly your naughty. Im sure review005 is thinking about us all. Wonder if hes having withdrawal. Mary I was just thinking how the pages slowdown when he isnt about.
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Post by whyisitso on Nov 10, 2014 18:15:45 GMT -5
I recon troll Review005 has taken up smoking. After all, they say when you drop one habit (TMB) you usually pick up another. Either that or he's collecting some Convention 'gems' for us. Maybe he'll start a new thread when he comes back. Anyone got a NZ conv list so we have an idea of the timeframe we can expect such enlightenment? Wishes
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Post by stevnz on Nov 12, 2014 0:24:09 GMT -5
In 7 weeks and 62 pages, there have been many posts. However many seem to have ignored the Admin's request to "keep the thread on topic and keep it nice" and "genuine posting of ideas, and discussion around them. ... I do not want it degenerating into personal clashes and what comes across as point-scoring, not constructive discussion." There was a lot of posting on how to deal with immorality, and on the meaning of the Prodigal Son parable. Those who are interested should look back. I reviewed the posts and extracted those comments that seemed to fit within Admin's guidelines. They have been grouped together for each person who posted, rather than being in chronological order. If even 1% was implemented then that would be an improvement. If these ideas just get people thinking and eventually acting on how to improve the fellowship the that would be great. Apologies to anyone if I missed their suggestion on how to improve the fellowship.
1. Prayer united in agreement.
Prayer meetings.
Acknowledging the holy spirit the power of God.
Applying scripture in proclamation and declaration. Speaking out loud.
Rather than hearing from us overseers being open to workers and friends hearing from God. I'm sure they do in dreams and vision.
Overseers learning to minister via the holy spirit.
TRY laying hands on people and pray believing for the power of god to touch them.
2. How about a special meeting where there is an open forum for questions to workers. These can be quite productive in resolving misunderstandings.
3. While convention is a good idea because of numbers gathered together. In an hour you may only hear 5 questions. What if each locality had a collective meeting maybe sun arvo where numbers are fewer. You might fine different areas have different concerns. What we found when we had a forum at a conference. Those invisible walls get broken and dialogue is easier. They were productive.
4. read again Matthew 23 and try to understand and absorb what Jesus told the multitude and His disciples on that occasion. There is a powerful message there and a very good guideline as regards leading and following, saying and doing, saying one thing but doing the opposite, ( actual words versus deeds). Dare I say it, not trusting those who speak the words but who do the opposite. A case of don't do as I do, but do as I say situation.
5. Mankind is not perfect, we do make mistakes and the right and honorable thing to do when proven wrong and in error is to admit it and apologize. Mend fences and move forward. To be wrong and strong is a demonstration of "bully boy tactics" and a deficiency in character which does not reflect the spirit of Christ within us. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
6. Move any assets, administrative, financial and other matters to a board appointed/ elected by the friends.
- I think this was a miscue in terms of restoring the NT church. Clearly Acts 6 indicates the apostles at the time did not deal with many of these matters.
The workers should read more doctrine, at least from the perspective of how their movement stands in relation to orthodox Christianity.
- The early workers were raised in established churches and their movement was a reaction against established doctrine. Each subsequent generation of workers risks losing how the church (at large) has changed throughout its history, and where the friends' movement is situated in relation to that history. They also become successively less effective in explaining their point of view to friends' and those interested in the church.
- However, I don't believe the friends' church should have a written doctrine. This is something personally that I liked about the church. It would be fine for workers to write or publish their thoughts and experiences, though.
Cease the prohibition on recording the history of the movement and the workers, as it goes along. Encourage the recording and publication of the present day history of the church. Reconcile themselves to the history collected and recorded by Cherie Kropp and others.
- Clearly it was okay to do this in Bible days. Why is it not okay now? The problem is that without an actual history, the movement is susceptible to fables. If people don't have an explanation for something, they tend to invent one.
7. Differences in doctrine, and incorrect doctrine existed among the early Christians, and were tolerated, so they should be tolerated today. I don't believe that any particular teaching of the workers has to change; it's largely a question of attitude.
There are specific practices that the friends could adopt ( and some have ) in order to be less exclusive.
1) Expand the circle for social events, invite other Christians.
2) Attend other churches to see what they are like.
3) Read more widely, especially in Christian doctrine and history.
4) Join forces with other churches or efforts in terms of charity work.
8. Preach Love and Acceptance to all.
Not Love and Acceptance with conditions.
9. Cease attempting to build the workers and meetings up by making negative comments about non-F&W churches or pastors. Attempting to reduce another’s credibility does not enhance our own.
Please stop lumping all non-F&W churches together, or generalising, as though they are all the same.
Please don’t try and disguise ‘put-downs’ of non-F&W churches in anecdotal stories.
If it’s negative and about someone else don’t say it!!
10. While we do value the spiritual uplifting of fellowship meetings I think we can go a step further. I have found through the years that when we each take part in meetings we are usually so uptight about saying something that just merely sounds good. A majority of participants are so nervous about that that thoughst are sometimes incoherent and sometimes people get so weepy that a lot is missed. I would like to see an informal get together, at least by the elders, once a month or so simply to discuss just doctrine and interpretation rightly dividing the Scripture. I say that because I have found that many of us do not know what we believe beyond what we hear from workers in meeting. Asking simple questions and giving Scripture supporting reasons for why we see things the way we do. We too often base our stand on someone else's conscience.
11. Opening the door for and allowing honest discussion even of difficult topics would help a a lot. At this point, this doesn't even exist at the ministry level, let alone church level (before someone says it's not true, let me say that a worker has told us that "it is not safe" to talk about CSA and immorality issues and that he doesn't have anyone in the ministry he can talk to about his concerns regarding it).
12. The problem in the church is that most people would rather not know what is happening, because they know they are not supposed to 'question' the workers, and as long as their own family is not affected, they are happy to brush aside other people's experiences.
13. What perspective do those in place of leadership and authority have that causes them to not take responsibility for the mistakes that have been made, apologize for them, commit to not repeating them in the future and take concrete steps in that direction? The ‘mistakes’ that concern us are: not dealing with CSA allegations in a legally, morally and spiritually appropriate way, and allowing those who have committed immorality to remain in the (celibate) ministry.
14. When men are put up on a pedestal and automatically given attributes such as ‘godly’ and ‘anointed’ due to their place in the hierarchy, their judgement and decisions cannot be questioned because they have been declared ‘godly’ and ‘anointed’ - above suspicion. And, when a lapse in judgment is evident, then this ‘godliness’ is declared to be the culprit. Or, those who would question their judgments can easily be silenced through fear of displeasing God Himself, since these men are understood to be ‘godly’ and ‘anointed.’
15. If people were able to get truthful and complete information on issues that concern them straight from church representatives, they wouldn't be turning to grapevine and Internet for incomplete and possibly corrupted information.
16. “Do you feel that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again?” The answer is: they should NOT have a place in the work, and here is why:
1) Because it’s a celibate ministry:
2) Care for the soul:
3) true understanding of “falling into temptation:
4) lack of mechanism to track offenses:
5) avoiding the trap of double standards:
6) avoiding the trap of hypocrisy:
7) recognition of the problem that true (consensual) sexual immorality is not likely to be brought to light, while abuse is more likely, and that Overseers have not been able to distinguish between the two:
8) recognition of the problem that Overseers do not have a clear understanding of what constitutes sexually inappropriate behavior especially in cases of sexual harassment:
17. Saying that the only or main problem is 'the old man' or 'myself' doesn't make this church any different from other churches, because, guess what? Their problems are also caused by 'the old man' and 'myself.' What makes this church different from other churches is that other churches are not afraid to admit they have problems, to examine them and look for solutions.
18. This was not the only issue that we placed before F&W's. Here is the complete list:
1) that NO known child molester is allowed to enter or remain in the work;
2) that all senior workers will work to effect a change in the fellowship culture for the purpose of creating a safer environment for children;
3) that in cases of alleged CSA, parents of victims, adult victims, and other concerned individuals will be encouraged to report allegations to authorities, and that workers will not try to judge whether an allegation is true or false, but will allow trained and authorized professionals to investigate;
4) that if a known child molester is placed in a meeting, people in the meeting will be notified, so that they can exercise due vigilance with their children;
5) that NO known child molester will be allowed to attend conventions;
6) that NO ONE who has committed sexual immorality (regardless of whether it’s consensual or abusive in nature) is allowed to remain in the work;
7) that there will be ONE standard on how to deal with those who have
committed sins of sexual immorality regardless of their place and position in the church, and regardless of the presence or lack of an outward evidence of their sin;
8) that those who have abused the trust given to them because of their place in the ministry through sexual immorality and abuse will not be eased out of work in a secretive way, but will be openly rebuked before the church.
19. When emphasis is on conformity to form, when the form is so elevated that it becomes the distinguishing mark of the church and the measuring stick for judging spiritual state of an individual, inward spiritual understanding and growth and the true fruits of the spirit may get overlooked. Then, we end up with the ministry that preaches conformity to outward form, while its members’ sexual immorality is excused as the sin of the flesh. And, the laity may get so preoccupied with the rules, that once the adherence to the rules earns them human approval, they may think they have accomplished all there is to accomplish and may neglect to seek to understand deeper spiritual truths.
20. …enforced celibacy could be one of the roots of the problems discussed here
21. I could agree to 1st offense not warranting removal from the work if all the workers known for repeat offenses were immediately removed from the work, if public apology was made for past mistakes and to victims and their advocates who were marginalized and vilified, and if the following procedure was put into place for dealing with 1st time offenses:
1) that the offender be removed from the work for a year to give him time to reflect on what he has done and on whether he really wants to or should commit to celibacy for life,
2) that the reason for his removal is not hidden,
3) that he receives the same punishment as any other church member found in immorality,
4) that in the case of his return to the ministry, he would remain in the area where he committed the 1st offense, so that if he re-offends, it won’t be treated as 1st time offense again,
4) that reports of sexual abuse/harassment will be treated as such (not as consensual immorality/slander/seduction) and that in case of reportable abuse the victim is encouraged to report it,
5) that in case of abuse/harassment, the worker is not allowed to return to the ministry ever.
22. If in parts of the world where guidelines have been issued workers are still confused about their responsibility and liberty in dealing with suspected CSA, how bad is it in the rest of the world where the topic cannot even be discussed openly?
23. Have an open session on the Saturday afternoon of convention where the key speakers (3 or 4) sit on the platform and have open forum with the congregation based on the main themes that have been expressed at the convention.
This is standard at non 2x2 Christian conventions and conferences.
It gives a chance for the audience to ask the questions that are on their mind and the leaders to respond.
A similar thing could be done with youth meetings etc.
If people submit questions in advance it would have to be to an open email box or similar so that anyone who submits a question has an equal opportunity of having it answered.
24. A major step forward for the fellowship would be to stop thinking that they have exclusive rights to the Kingdom of God. If they just looked up and out at the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in the hearts of men and women throughout the world it would be very humbling. God is great - we do not have a mortgage on his work. He loves those who call out to him, repent and believe in Him. Exclusivity brings with it erroneous authority and an incorrect view that leaders can add to a gospel that is already 100% complete in Christ. It is not about us - it is about Him.
25. At the heart of it, every church, including the 2x2 fellowship needs to constantly get back to the true gospel. If this doesn't occur all churches who lose focus on Christ and the core message of the gospel will generally go into decline as they won't offer life and certain hope for people.
26. The fellowship would be much larger today (and growing) if the workers simply said:
- we started in the late 1800's
- we did it because we weren't happy with the way churches were being run
- we believe we have a great fellowship based on Jesus as our Saviour, Redeemer and King, the Bible (yes we are okay with some of the modern translations as well as KJV which of course is a beautiful translation)
- we believe that other Christians will be saved and we encourage you to fellowship with other Christians and spread the message of Christ wherever possible
- we have a relatively frugal ministry which we are happy with but we are quite happy to have married ministers going forward but we want to keep the focus on evangelism as well as pastoring
- we don't want to accumulate property because it has it challenges and upkeep and we want to keep things simple
- we want you to understand and appreciate the truths of the Bible - we encourage BSF and from time to time we will distribute our own material which is on our global website where we state what we believe etc
- we have lots of volunteers and a small number of staff to produce these materials, update hymn books, issue safe ministry guidelines etc
27. At the heart of the issue is exclusivity and doctrine and faith in a ministry rather than Christ - it can never be resolved unless workers repent and change their approach to the gospel.
28. The Head Workers in Australia do not want any changes made.
They do not want to issue guidelines to their ministers.
They do not want to implement safe ministry training and certification.
They seek legal advice on how the definition of "organisation" used in the charter of the Australian Royal Commission into Child Abuse would not apply to them ie how they can get around the definition.
They organise as part of the defence of one of their senior workers on CSA charges to use the services of a leading psychologist who was also used by the defence of one of Australia's greatest drug criminals.
If folk in the group in Australia (and it seems elsewhere) are happy with that picture and want no change then I guess everyone gets what they ask for.
Something tells me though that many folk in the group in Australia are not happy with that picture and want change.
29. …leaders … unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away.
30. (Quoting Graham Thompson) I believe that the sickness in the eldership is the most serious factor affecting the health of the Fellowship today, and that it is also the greatest threat to the future of the Fellowship.
31. Failure to talk about difficult subjects can "destroy the truth".
32. The selective mercy on this thread seems like a double standard to me. If an unmarried woman finds herself pregnant she's made a public example of. However the same behaviour from a worker is excused or hidden.
33. What the fellowship needs is a greater focus on the inward. Sexual immorality in the fellowship is a symptom of a spiritual lack.
34. … awaken the conscience of workers and friends so they realise it’s better to have less workers than to place child molesters into children's homes.
35. Less of the controlling spirit would be a good start.
36. Maybe a good start would be having the same "rules" the world over? Have everyone on the same page?
37. If you marry an "outsider" you are stood down, if you are D&R you are stood down. But if a worker is having an affair with someone, or gets a girl pregnant its all hidden & hushed up !
38. D&R is another issue that needs to change, either D&R is accepted or its not you only have to look at the difference in the rules to this in different states. Another thing that needs to change is having the same rules the world over.
39. If there is disinformation and misinformation being promulgated then the fellowship could be improved by someone providing corrections, and by providing open access to the correct information.
40. One way to improve the fellowship would be to go back to the evangelical way of telling the gospel.
41. knock the sarcasm on the head along with the arrogant "We know best" attitude.
42. Lord cleanse this fellowship and start with me
43. A young lady is punished and a worker quietly moved. That is wrong.
44. A start will be to see members of the fellowship who post on TMB having the integrity to speak in person the way they post on TMB. For example if a person posts on TMB of people being sycophants and minions, then speak with those people in person using these words.
To see members of the fellowship who post on TMB speak firstly with a person they intend to post about on TMB to ensure that what they post about them is accurate, true and current.
45. Love
46. A Youth Program would be a great addition to the 2x2 church
47. All members of the fellowship should be held accountable for their actions imo. As far as sexual offences go, everyone needs to understand they need to report them to authorities. I think where the group has got into trouble is their reluctance to report sexual assault in their fellowship, not just by workers and elders, but by anyone that might be in that position. They aren't doing anyone any good by not reporting and getting the authorities to determine the outcome. How else will those who have issues get help for them? It isn't likely they will go on their own for therapy. So reporting benefits both the abuser and the abused.
48. The way I see it though is that trying to change the 'top' isn't working very well, or at least not very quickly. That is why I suggest that the fellowship members at the lower levels take it upon themselves to try and educate everyone. Everyone needs to be aware it is happening (CSA, I'm not making any suggestions for what has been called sexual immorality among adults). Once everyone is aware that it is happening within the fellowship at many levels, workers, elders and members, then there must be some kind of education to address what to do with that information, legal implications for the members, elders etc.
49. Thinking of other ways to inform the laity I wonder if a group of elders and perhaps ex-workers who clearly understand the moral code of the bible could set up an unofficial web-page dedicated solely to 2x2 issues and education, this would not have the backing of the hierarchy but it would be a place many would feel they could safely send friends with concerns or questions when they cannot get satisfactory answers or just to inform them to be careful not everything is as it appears.
50. It should be public knowledge that the meetings were started up by William Irvine and Cooney. Some people are told and some people are told it's not true it came out of thin air. Also hymns, so called professing words and mannerisms are "borrowed " from the Presbyterian church. This deceit about its beginnings means its rotten at the root.
51. Very often, in my experience in various meetings around the world, there seems to be a lack of joy in the singing. Yet in social gatherings, of the same professing people, singing the same hymns, the mood seems much more joyful. Should the use of a guitar or other musical instruments in the meeting be encouraged perhaps?
52. Quite apart from the often doleful singing, does anyone else think that our hymn book could do with an overhaul? Am I alone in thinking that our book is lacking when it comes to hymns of praise? We also have some weak hymns (e.g. the dirge-like "Take not thy Holy Spirit from me"). And some hymns contain technical inaccuracies (e.g. "At every gate an ambushed foe unseen". Pardon?).
53. There is a particular issue with the overseers of our fellowship at present, that got shown up in the 10 years leading up to the resignation of Graham Thompson.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 12, 2014 2:15:26 GMT -5
Thanks Steve, I can see you have put a lot of thought into this. Some of what you have mentioned is why I found elsewhere for fellowship.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 12, 2014 2:52:50 GMT -5
Stevenz Re:10 When we started attending another church we went to a homegroup. I was very timid and shy to speak way way out of my comfort zone. It took 10yr for me to speak in meetings. This was very different to our sun morning meetings also the summer evening meetings in home. There wasnt a structure. It was relaxed. The people were friendly funny and caring. They tried to draw me out and get me to speak my thoughts. I felt bound up with emotion. Gradly slowly slowly I gained confidence to answer and relax. Why is it the friends get so emotional? I think if there was a bible study in depth say via a reliable bible course where you are taken through lots of scripture to understand the topic clearly might help. For this reason. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. As our minds are washed we begin to see and understand what we believe. The word is powerful to do its work.Dialogue and open questions allowing discussion would help people in a non threatening environment. Opening in prayer is a good thing. It cuts through the spirit realm and breaks down walls.
Ps: one bible course we studied was BCF. USA. You might need something lighter initially.
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Post by Brick on Nov 14, 2014 11:56:00 GMT -5
A few years back, my company became concerned with employee morale, so they hosted meetings for employees to express what they felt the company lacked and needed to improve morale. A long list of items was published of things that the groups decided that the company needed. It was kicked up to the officer level and a few months later, it was published along with another list of how the company already met those needs. In short, nothing was done other that a few folks got to sit around and drum up meaningless lists. If you want change, it starts with you. And one last little item. How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the bulb must want the change. Does our fellowship want to change? My opinion is that it does not. From where I stand, I think the majority of the fellowship's members are content with the status quo.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 14:49:00 GMT -5
Ok, the majority has it, the majority rules so we can all go home now.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 14, 2014 19:25:03 GMT -5
Brick Long time no see. I had a conversation about thisvthread last night. We concluded the problems are so large to fix is mamoth. I feel for the friends who have been faithfully trusting these people all their lives. Im glad and relieved it cant affect my parents.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 14, 2014 19:53:54 GMT -5
So lets just keep burying our heads in the sand ! Way to go !
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Post by fixit on Nov 14, 2014 20:02:01 GMT -5
More than 400 people buried their heads in the sand at Sydney's Bondi Beach. Photograph: Mike Bowers
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 20:18:54 GMT -5
A few years back, my company became concerned with employee morale, so they hosted meetings for employees to express what they felt the company lacked and needed to improve morale. A long list of items was published of things that the groups decided that the company needed. It was kicked up to the officer level and a few months later, it was published along with another list of how the company already met those needs. In short, nothing was done other that a few folks got to sit around and drum up meaningless lists. If you want change, it starts with you. And one last little item. How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the bulb must want the change. Does our fellowship want to change? My opinion is that it does not. From where I stand, I think the majority of the fellowship's members are content with the status quo. you're a real brick my friend, it is so easy to see the short comings in others but not in one's self, your post to the top of the page
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 20:20:32 GMT -5
So lets just keep burying our heads in the sand ! Way to go ! by all means you are welcome to do such
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