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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 6, 2014 2:47:15 GMT -5
Yours don't do the same for you? I would hope that they do!
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 6, 2014 3:55:13 GMT -5
Yes Ross, it must be an Australian thing ! Because how many times have we heard if you question a worker you are questioning Jesus ! Of course they believe they are modern day Apostles as well so how dare we question !
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Nov 6, 2014 5:30:27 GMT -5
emy - it may be more of an Australian thing. Over the years down under if you question what a worker has said in a meeting you are told that you are questioning Jesus. Miriam/Aaron are often brought into the conversation. The worker will say - you might think that you are questioning me but Jesus said in Matthew 25:20 "inasmuch as ye do it unto one of these the least of my brethren ye are doing it unto me...", therefore when you question me you are questioning Jesus. The fact that Matt 25:20 has nothing to do with this at all, doesn't matter. The scripture is twisted to suit the argument. You are then led to 12:32 where you are told that blasphemy against the Spirit is unforgivable. So, the worker then puts 2 and 2 together to get 22 and concludes that because you have questioned a servant of God who has been appointed by God you are questioning Jesus and the Holy Spirit and you have committed blasphemy. I suspect that it emanated from John Hardie - one of the main early workers who I did not know - and was used by Gordon McNab (who I did know) and also by Clyde Mackay (current Head Worker). fred and others may also be able to comment. Thanks for your reply. I hope some others also will. Emy - this is a copy of the letter I received. I've previously posted my letter which questioned his exclusive message and his reference to the so-called Summer Letter that came out from the US a bit before this. His last sentence is a reference to the cheque I enclosed which obviously was made out to him - he returned it. This kind of letter or discussion was pretty common around this time. It was also well known when growing up in the 1970's and 80's that people were told they had committed blasphemy. Cheers, Ross Attachment Deleted
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Nov 6, 2014 6:00:26 GMT -5
I was just PM'd and asked if I could post a copy of the letter. The original is at work and it's late here now so I've copied it from one of my posts on TMB. It follows:
"10 October 1997,
Dear Clyde, I thought I would write you a note tonight after listening to you at the special meetings last week. I was intrigued and confused by some of your comments and thought initially that it would be best to put them in writing. Hopefully, we can discuss them at some point in time.
You spoke of your concern about people "spreading stories" about our fellowship which, to use your words "are just not true". However, you chose not to elaborate in any detail about what the stories were. From your comments I gathered that you were referring to the Summer letter. As you are probably aware, this letter was written by a group of friends in the US. I assume you were referring to this letter, as you indicated that there were more profitable letters that we could read from the Scriptures. Were you referring to this letter? If you were, I assume that you believe that the letter falls into the category of "spreading stories which are simply not true" Is this correct" Are any parts of the letter true or is it all false? Would you be prepared to talk about what you believe is not true in the letter?
In your sermon you mentioned the beginnings and appeared to infer that our fellowship is from the beginning. What do you mean by this? Do you mean that the early Christian church that we read of in Acts is the same fellowship as we experience today? That is, the fellowship has existed down through the ages until now? I would be interested in your views on this subject. Personally, it is largely irrelevant to my faith in Christ, however, I find it disturbing if people in our fellowship elevate the concept of apostolic succession to seek to demonstrate that they have an exclusive right to salvation. Of course, you would be well aware that the Catholic church has done this for centuries.
You also talked about the internet and mentioned that if people used it for business then that was okay. I am not sure if you are aware that many people throughout the world use the internet for email communication and that many workers (including a number in Australia) communicate using this technology. Along with many other friends, I have looked at the web sites concerning our fellowship. I have found them quite stimulating. Of course, some people try to concentrate on the negatives of our fellowship and conveniently overlook the positives. It is inspiring that some workers have chosen to address the issues by writing to the sites. Others have simply ignored them hoping they will go away. Unfortunately, for those in the last category, the internet is in its infancy. In ten years or so, every household will be connected. You indicated in a general sense that the information on the sites was written by people with grudges. How do you know? Presumably, some people have had legitimate concerns over the years. However, there are many people whose lives have been destroyed as a result of their experiences. Do these people have a grudge or is their questioning simply reactionary behaviour as a result of their experiences?
Take the case of one man from Ireland, who is currently active in questioning certain aspects of our fellowship. His experience was rather sad as he was sexually molested time after time by a male worker when he was growing up. Does this man have a grudge? I am sure you would agree that he does not. Clyde, I have learned over the years that if I am criticised in a work sense (whether rightly or wrongly) that it is better to acknowledge the criticism, meet with the people concerned, talk about the issues involved and make changes where necessary. Are the workers willing to do the same? Some have argued that you can't change what is perfect? No, you can't and we certainly wouldn't want to change Christ. We all understand that Jesus (as the Way) is perfect. However, our fellowship and all the workers and friends who participate in it are not perfect - that is fairly self-evident and it's why Christ died for us.
Perhaps it is time to re-examine certain aspects of our fellowship to see if they align with Scripture or if we have drifted in the last 100 years. Would you be willing to discuss these issues?
Clyde, I know I have a number of questions. They are not meant to be threatening and I hope that you will answer them for me. As you are effectively the overseer in NSW, I feel it is important that I understand clearly what you believe and what your thoughts are on the issues that you raised in your message at special meetings. In saying this and asking the various questions, I should add that I appreciate the work that you do and support your efforts to spread the gospel. I hope that you will discuss these issues with me in the near future.
Love in Christ, Ross Bowden"
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 6, 2014 11:50:56 GMT -5
The reason why Clyde took exception to your letter is obvious. He has been waffling instead of telling the gospel of Christ. Some workers are real good at it and when asked specific questions they get all defensive. As I've said before, stick to the gospel and align ones life as best one can with it. No dumb stories, anecdotes and analogies please.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 12:36:55 GMT -5
Nathan, many folks may not agree with your "yes" answers above, so will you be kind enough to explain your reasons for saying yes? It would be very interesting and enlightening, don't just leave it at that. Thank you.
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Post by fixit on Nov 6, 2014 13:15:09 GMT -5
Revs, I seem to recall you commending Maja for putting her concerns in writing and offering to meet with workers and overseers before expressing her concerns on TMB.
How is it different with Ross?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 6, 2014 14:14:40 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply. I hope some others also will. Emy - this is a copy of the letter I received. I've previously posted my letter which questioned his exclusive message and his reference to the so-called Summer Letter that came out from the US a bit before this. His last sentence is a reference to the cheque I enclosed which obviously was made out to him - he returned it. This kind of letter or discussion was pretty common around this time. It was also well known when growing up in the 1970's and 80's that people were told they had committed blasphemy. Cheers, Ross That letter WAS/IS such a stock reply to anyone who ask questions that a worker doesn't want to answer, that they might as well just print off a bunch of them and fill in blanks.
If even just one small quest for a honest answer will suddenly you find not the corny joke telling worker, but the fierce warrior bristling all over with warnings of "How dare you question me!
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Post by fixit on Nov 6, 2014 14:27:30 GMT -5
Revs, I seem to recall you commending Maja for putting her concerns in writing and offering to meet with workers and overseers before expressing her concerns on TMB. How is it different with Ross? Was TMB up and going and you posting back in 1997? Appreciate you finding cause for commendation. My apologies for overlooking that. Kindly remind me each time someone 'puts their concerns in writing and offering to meet with workers and overseers before expressing their concerns on TMB'. Henceforth I'll seek to do better and be more faithful in this matter. You as an elder; I feel a commendation from you in each such instance would be very encouraging for them. Quite a few of them may be about through with the word w-o-r-k-e-r so you may be able to reach such. My point is that Ross followed the order you recommended: Write to workers --> Meet with workers --> Write to TMB only after exhausting those options. Maja did that, and you commended her for it.
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Post by fixit on Nov 6, 2014 14:49:32 GMT -5
When you follow the order (which you seem to think is right) your words and posts will carry weight for me. Wishes to you, Revs.
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Post by Mary on Nov 6, 2014 14:50:15 GMT -5
I fail to see any problems with the letter Ross wrote to the worker. Why is the worker so threatened by questions calling you a Pharisee and questioning his authority. And to think I thought the workers were supposed to be humble and not lord over people. Surely a few simple questions are easily answered without the attacks. Is it an unforgiveable sin to ask a worker questions unless of course, workers are beyond questioning. Each person is accountable for the words he speaks and the workers should be no different. Isn't it part of witnessing his faith?
You are not following the order of the rev, fixit. Are all workers like these?
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Post by snow on Nov 6, 2014 17:53:27 GMT -5
Don't question the workers. Loud and clear. No control issues there. Wow. They must think they have the same status as God. At least he didn't call you the 'spawn of the devil' Ross. You got off easy!
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Post by snow on Nov 6, 2014 18:41:32 GMT -5
Don't question the workers. Loud and clear. No control issues there. Wow. They must think they have the same status as God. At least he didn't call you the 'spawn of the devil' Ross. You got off easy! Yes Snow - I likely did get off easy. It hurt at the time but it was not long before I started feeling sorry for the man. Were you called "the spawn of the devil.."? I've never heard that one before! Yes I imagine that it would have hurt. I think what they don't understand is that when people ask them for clarification they are just wanting to understand better. I know that when I was 12 asking questions, I just wanted to know more, understand more, so I could be a better person. I was a very serious devout child. I professed at 8 years old and my one goal in life was to be a worker when I got old enough. As I got older I started to have more questions, as children do. I asked the workers because I really thought they had all the answers. When they couldn't answer my questions and seemed to be mad at me for even asking, I was confused at first. I kept quiet for about 6 months and then asked again. The worker I asked again was not pleased that I would question her after being told not to question and just accept the way of God. She got angry and probably said some things she never meant to say and probably even felt bad about after, but it hurt me a lot and it was the beginning of the end for me. I started studying and searching for answers on my own and that led me to where I am today. In a way I am very thankful for her reaction to my questions because it sent me on a journey, searching for answers. As a child I loved the workers. There were some very good ones that truly seemed to care. From reading here, it's been an eye opener for sure to see just how hurtful the workers now can be. When it happened to me all those years ago I thought it was just me. I never realized that it was something they did to others too. I am sorry you had such an experience Ross. When we care about things and we are shut down in the way that letter did to you, it would be very painful. You left the 2x2's. I left all religious beliefs.
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Post by fixit on Nov 6, 2014 19:33:51 GMT -5
Yes Snow - I likely did get off easy. It hurt at the time but it was not long before I started feeling sorry for the man. Were you called "the spawn of the devil.."? I've never heard that one before! Yes I imagine that it would have hurt. I think what they don't understand is that when people ask them for clarification they are just wanting to understand better. I know that when I was 12 asking questions, I just wanted to know more, understand more, so I could be a better person. I was a very serious devout child. I professed at 8 years old and my one goal in life was to be a worker when I got old enough. As I got older I started to have more questions, as children do. I asked the workers because I really thought they had all the answers. When they couldn't answer my questions and seemed to be mad at me for even asking, I was confused at first. I kept quiet for about 6 months and then asked again. The worker I asked again was not pleased that I would question her after being told not to question and just accept the way of God. She got angry and probably said some things she never meant to say and probably even felt bad about after, but it hurt me a lot and it was the beginning of the end for me. I started studying and searching for answers on my own and that led me to where I am today. In a way I am very thankful for her reaction to my questions because it sent me on a journey, searching for answers. As a child I loved the workers. There were some very good ones that truly seemed to care. From reading here, it's been an eye opener for sure to see just how hurtful the workers now can be. When it happened to me all those years ago I thought it was just me. I never realized that it was something they did to others too. I am sorry you had such an experience Ross. When we care about things and we are shut down in the way that letter did to you, it would be very painful. You left the 2x2's. I left all religious beliefs. Some workers drive people away, but they don't realise it. It saddens me to think that a little child asking legitimate questions can be treated like that.
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Post by snow on Nov 6, 2014 19:51:48 GMT -5
Yes I imagine that it would have hurt. I think what they don't understand is that when people ask them for clarification they are just wanting to understand better. I know that when I was 12 asking questions, I just wanted to know more, understand more, so I could be a better person. I was a very serious devout child. I professed at 8 years old and my one goal in life was to be a worker when I got old enough. As I got older I started to have more questions, as children do. I asked the workers because I really thought they had all the answers. When they couldn't answer my questions and seemed to be mad at me for even asking, I was confused at first. I kept quiet for about 6 months and then asked again. The worker I asked again was not pleased that I would question her after being told not to question and just accept the way of God. She got angry and probably said some things she never meant to say and probably even felt bad about after, but it hurt me a lot and it was the beginning of the end for me. I started studying and searching for answers on my own and that led me to where I am today. In a way I am very thankful for her reaction to my questions because it sent me on a journey, searching for answers. As a child I loved the workers. There were some very good ones that truly seemed to care. From reading here, it's been an eye opener for sure to see just how hurtful the workers now can be. When it happened to me all those years ago I thought it was just me. I never realized that it was something they did to others too. I am sorry you had such an experience Ross. When we care about things and we are shut down in the way that letter did to you, it would be very painful. You left the 2x2's. I left all religious beliefs. Some workers drive people away, but they don't realise it. It saddens me to think that a little child asking legitimate questions can be treated like that. It's ok now fixit. I just think though that if they want to keep intelligent, thinking people they need to learn that questions are important to be answered. Saying you have the wrong attitude and that questioning a worker is the same thing as questioning Jesus is right off the wall in arrogance imo. That letter basically said he would pray for Ross' soul because it was such a huge sin to question him, a worker. I honestly don't know how you can put up with being in a group like that. There seems to be zero respect for the members of the group by some of the workers. It certainly has been an eye opener with the dialogue on here that's for sure. I'm sure that anyone that tries to give constructive criticism is likely just labelled as someone with a bad attitude instead of really listening, thinking about it, and seeing if there might be something they could be doing different or better. Instead, the 'wrong' person is the person who doesn't agree with every word the worker says. That's living in a fanatsy world where control is all they seem to want and to be worshiped. Well, some will, but I don't think the group will hold on to those who actually question anything or try to change anything for the better.
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 6, 2014 20:00:46 GMT -5
Ross, Have you forgotten that you tried this tack already. Go back through your posts & it'll refresh your memory. Hi Review. I have been following this thread from the beginning. Maybe you don't realize how you come across. Obviously, you and some of the friends/your relatives in NZ have issues with each other. You are debating with each other in a manner that comes across as negative, petty, and backstabbing. It doesn't sound good and it isn't good. You are forgetting perhaps that not all readers of this now massive thread are exes, and not all are "against" you or the fellowship as you seem to believe. If there are angry exes on here determined to destroy the Truth, they will surely be rubbing their hands together with glee at this 60 page display. The rest of us, especially current members, will likely just be dismayed and saddened. Please think of your audience, and try to respond in a way that befits a disciple of Christ. Ross is discussing mainstream Christian doctrine in a very rational and level headed manner. Maybe you don't agree with all of it (I don't necessarily) but his delivery is respectful and clear. Again, think of folks in other countries who don't know you and your friends, and have no position to gain from the sarcastic barbs you throw at each other. While I know the workers in my area wouldn't talk like you do, I can't prove it because they don't post here. Don't assume that TMB is a place where your testimony doesn't matter.
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Post by xna on Nov 6, 2014 20:01:31 GMT -5
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 6, 2014 20:26:22 GMT -5
Also just a quick story to balance some of the stuff on here. We recently spoke with one of our workers who we felt had played a part in mishandling a very sensitive situation between some of the friends. It was very complicated, and we certainly didn't feel like he was entirely or even mostly to blame. His response? "I'm sorry. Please forgive me. I will make it right." We have no money or position among the friends, so he had nothing to gain from responding with humility and respect. It's just a good way to treat people you care about.
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 6, 2014 20:56:51 GMT -5
Hi applesandbacon, You see and post from your perspective and have posted accordingly. I've noticed the manner in which you address/write to others whose perspective is different.Whose perspective is different from what? My own? Not challenging, just trying to clarify.
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 6, 2014 21:12:30 GMT -5
OK. I obviously have a different perspective from you, and from everyone else on here and in the entire world. I may not ever be able to fully understand where you or others are coming from. I get that. And I definitely know I'm not perfect and often respond inappropriately, although I try to be as reasonable as possible! I don't think any of that discounts what I said above.
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 6, 2014 21:17:04 GMT -5
Hey applesandbacon, I just wish to see if any have any commonality in perspective and view You made this statement: "Ross is discussing mainstream Christian doctrine in a very rational and level headed manner. Maybe you don't agree with all of it (I don't necessarily) but his delivery is respectful and clear."I have no objection to you posting from your perspective and viewpoint. Does the statement you made correctly express your opinion of Ross's contribution to this thread? Yes. I also appreciate that he posts under his real name, something I am not (yet) brave enough to do, because of the stigma of being on here. However, our agreement or disagreement on that small point by no means reflects whether we in general have commonality of perspective or view.
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 6, 2014 21:21:18 GMT -5
Hi applesandbacon, You see and post from your perspective and have posted accordingly; that is reasonable and correct. I've noticed the manner in which you address/write to others whose perspective is different. Coercion would be one word that comes to mind if I was asked to comment on your writing style. Coercion: "The practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats." Is that the word you intended to use?
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Post by stevnz on Nov 6, 2014 21:24:40 GMT -5
Hi applesandbacon, You see and post from your perspective and have posted accordingly; that is reasonable and correct. I've noticed the manner in which you address/write to others whose perspective is different. Coercion would be one word that comes to mind if I was asked to comment on your writing style. I don't see any coercion in any of A&B's posts. I agree with several of his/her posts and formed the impression of a very reasonable person. That doesn't apply to all who post here.
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Post by fixit on Nov 6, 2014 21:27:20 GMT -5
Some workers drive people away, but they don't realise it. It saddens me to think that a little child asking legitimate questions can be treated like that. It's ok now fixit. I just think though that if they want to keep intelligent, thinking people they need to learn that questions are important to be answered. Saying you have the wrong attitude and that questioning a worker is the same thing as questioning Jesus is right off the wall in arrogance imo. That letter basically said he would pray for Ross' soul because it was such a huge sin to question him, a worker. I honestly don't know how you can put up with being in a group like that. There seems to be zero respect for the members of the group by some of the workers. It certainly has been an eye opener with the dialogue on here that's for sure. I'm sure that anyone that tries to give constructive criticism is likely just labelled as someone with a bad attitude instead of really listening, thinking about it, and seeing if there might be something they could be doing different or better. Instead, the 'wrong' person is the person who doesn't agree with every word the worker says. That's living in a fanatsy world where control is all they seem to want and to be worshiped. Well, some will, but I don't think the group will hold on to those who actually question anything or try to change anything for the better. It brings me no pleasure to say that some workers respect minions and sycophants while despising those who question their behaviour. System-minded folks try hard to convince themselves and others that all is well in 2x2-land....but it's not. We need to acknowledge that all is not well and examine ourselves with humility and courage (yes, Fixit included).
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 6, 2014 21:29:22 GMT -5
Agree with you Fixit !
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Post by stevnz on Nov 6, 2014 21:37:39 GMT -5
good post stev, glad there are some things we agree on! I'm not sure what we agree on; You have disagreed with most of my posts. I disagreed with your assessment of A&B.
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Post by nswelshman on Nov 6, 2014 23:40:17 GMT -5
I'm not sure what we agree on; You have disagreed with most of my posts. I disagreed with your assessment of A&B. I appreciate that there are things we agree on. Review, you have mastered the art of trolling and many folk on here in their sincerity bite at every attempt. The quality of a thread is inversely proportional to the amount of times you post in it.
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Post by stevnz on Nov 7, 2014 1:26:21 GMT -5
NSW, A point well made. You are a 'gentleman and a scholar ' Hey what is the correct term for the procurement of insurance documents and then the posting about them on a public forum? Is there any ethical, employment issues for insurance company employees, brokers etc? appreciation and thanks! The correct term is honesty. The opposite is dishonesty, which is to act without honesty. It is used to describe a lack of probity, cheating, lying or being deliberately deceptive or a lack of integrity, knavishness, perfidiosity, corruption or treacherousness. Jack Carroll addressed financial matters and said : Many of you have been asked questions during the past year about your preachers and a number have found it difficult to give satisfactory answers to these questions. Some have conveyed the impression that there are things about the ministry that they are not prepared to tell others, and possibly have left the impression in the minds of the air friends that this is some kind of a secret or semi-secret fellowship that they have been brought into. I would like to dispel once and for all any such impressions, so that you will feel absolutely free to answer any questions your friends may ask about God's people or about His servants, for we hold nothing in secret that we are not prepared to preach openly. We hold nothing that we are not prepared to tell you from this platform, and are quite indifferent as to whether or not what we say is listened to by those who are not yet numbered among us, for everything that we hold and everything that we teach is to be found within the pages of God's own Book, which is open to all men. ... What I wish to say is intended to encourage you to be absolutely open and frank in speaking to your friends and to answer their questions, and to encourage you to do so more helpfully and spiritually that in the past.
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