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Post by stevnz on Nov 4, 2014 2:00:36 GMT -5
Stevnz You are a wise man observing hypocritical black pots with double standards and then correctly turning to wikipedia for theory. Also your wisdom is revealed in your ingenious public post technique of announcing your 'personal examination' . It reminds me somewhat of that which Jesus taught about at the beginning of Matthew 6. Anyway as you've advised us previously you 'have your own beliefs and do your own thing' & you'll discern and pick and choose and benefit much from your publicly announced personal examination. Quite a syllabus you have, if you get through, search and see if there is a wiki one on finger pointing also. Your sarcasm is obvious to many people. I genuinely have been considering my own weaknesses wrt the topics I posted. The words at the beginning of Matthew 6 are indeed wise: “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven." I wasn't posting to be seen to be righteous. I really don't care what you or others in this forum think of me. Rather than picking and choosing, I think 2 Timothy 2:15 is a better description: KJV: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. NIV: Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. I searched and found that there is a Wiki on finger pointing, but you probably wouldn't need to study it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerpointing
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 6:13:58 GMT -5
Review005 said (in black)
Thanks for explaining that your guru is a key man but not a key man. I know you are an intelligent man so I am confident you understand the point I was making (not don't take offence but if you read back through your posts you'll understand why I feel the word guru is appropriate to express your relationship with the man you admire so deeply, You use his name approximately five times more frequently that you use our Lord's name in your posts) This is an interesting point. Inevitably when discussing ‘hierarchy’ in NZ Graham’s name will appear until the problems he identified have been effectively dealt with. I could have added all the scriptural references but they were put on this Board already with Graham’s letters etc. at the time he resigned from the ministry. I think those references will continue to pop up here from time to time (and rightly so) until the time the hierarchy issues are finally dealt with. But you raise a good point about the Lord’s name and the frequency of its use. It has been an increasing concern to the saints how little we hear about the Lord and his name in many of our gospel meetings nowadays. I feel sometimes that I am referring to the Lord as often in my 2 minutes on Sunday morning as to what I hear at some gospel meetings. That surely is a concern. The gospel of Jesus Christ, the gospel of the grace of God are surely things everything should centre around in our missions. I do hear that you personally preach Jesus and I’d urge you to continue on with that. Those with children or grandchildren really do want them to have an opportunity to hear that gospel.
Now was it Cassie's perception or your imagination that means you are able to understand my own instinctive reactions to key persons' hierarchical dispositions and malign influences looking at things from an 'authoritarian angle? It was neither. Your own words showed you linked it with hierarchy, when that was not intended at all. That could be an indicator that your mind thinks of things working in a hierarchical way within the church. (rather than fellowshipping as ‘brethren’ which you also mentioned)
So glad you won't be jumping up and down about non answers. most gracious of you.
I also will not be jumping up and down when you decline to 'disrobe' and seek the understanding and clarification you lack.
Anyway in that neither of us will have the need to jump up and down. Yes, we both don’t want to waste energy that way. But don’t you agree that a brotherhood approach could lead to great edifying and ‘closeness’ within the fellowship (truly fellows within the one ship) ?A duet brotherhood standing together and standing for truth with our four feet on the ground.
We have different perceptions of the truth of it all. Yes, and this will be based on a number of things including our own experiences in life in dealing with hierarchies. I’d like you to think back though to your own commendable efforts to try and move things forward between Graham and Alan. You must have felt there was something that could be bridged. Do you still feel the same way you did then? Is there anything you can share on your own feelings now ? Do you feel that something regarding ‘hierarchy’ remains unattended to, still? You are well settled and grounded in your perception of it and present it well here; you are entitled to that. I am at peace with God and myself in my understanding of it and as necessary will speak of it when asked.You are right to do so. Communication often leads to increased understanding and clarity to all parties. All have the opportunity to grow when the right type of communication takes place, when those involved are humble enough to listen properly. I say that sincerely, well aware of my own limitations.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 4, 2014 6:37:09 GMT -5
Stev, You have done well, through the self examination & on to finger pointing so quickly. I find it astonishing how you speak to people on here who are a part of your fellowship. Its very grieving for me to witness this. Do you speak to the friends you nurture the way you speak online?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 7:24:45 GMT -5
But you raise a good point about the Lord’s name and the frequency of its use. It has been an increasing concern to the saints how little we hear about the Lord and his name in many of our gospel meetings nowadays. I feel sometimes that I am referring to the Lord as often in my 2 minutes on Sunday morning as to what I hear at some gospel meetings. That surely is a concern. The gospel of Jesus Christ, the gospel of the grace of God are surely things everything should centre around in our missions. I do hear that you personally preach Jesus and I’d urge you to continue on with that. Those with children or grandchildren really do want them to have an opportunity to hear that gospel. This is an interesting point. When about 75 of us left in Sydney between 1998-2002 we asked the workers specifically why we hear little about Jesus and the gospel of grace. We also asked why people in their testimonies at Convention thanked the workers all the time but paid less attention to thanking Christ - the sole source of their salvation. The answer was astonishing. We were told that "we can't preach Jesus all the time. There are many things to preach about. We have moved on from just preaching about Jesus". We realised that when a person's authority is not Jesus and is something else (ie the ministry) it is very easy to move on from Jesus. We realised that Jesus was not the rock or foundation on which the 2x2 church was built. So we all eventually moved on from the 2x2 version of Jesus to worship the real Jesus - the Way, Truth and Life - the One who is everything to us. I love the phrase used in Acts 20 v24 referring to Paul's ministry "to testify the gospel of the grace of God". Wonderful news, indeed
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Post by bubbles on Nov 4, 2014 10:48:06 GMT -5
But you raise a good point about the Lord’s name and the frequency of its use. It has been an increasing concern to the saints how little we hear about the Lord and his name in many of our gospel meetings nowadays. I feel sometimes that I am referring to the Lord as often in my 2 minutes on Sunday morning as to what I hear at some gospel meetings. That surely is a concern. The gospel of Jesus Christ, the gospel of the grace of God are surely things everything should centre around in our missions. I do hear that you personally preach Jesus and I’d urge you to continue on with that. Those with children or grandchildren really do want them to have an opportunity to hear that gospel. This is an interesting point. When about 75 of us left in Sydney between 1998-2002 we asked the workers specifically why we hear little about Jesus and the gospel of grace. We also asked why people in their testimonies at Convention thanked the workers all the time but paid less attention to thanking Christ - the sole source of their salvation. The answer was astonishing. We were told that "we can't preach Jesus all the time. There are many things to preach about. We have moved on from just preaching about Jesus". We realised that when a person's authority is not Jesus and is something else (ie the ministry) it is very easy to move on from Jesus. We realised that Jesus was not the rock or foundation on which the 2x2 church was built. So we all eventually moved on from the 2x2 version of Jesus to worship the real Jesus - the Way, Truth and Life - the One who is everything to us. The Lord hates idolatry. All kinds of things are surfacing that is wrong with this group. Ive known ministers to fall (gold, glory or the girls) but not to speak this way to the people they are shepherding.
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rs
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Post by rs on Nov 4, 2014 13:02:16 GMT -5
rs You think so? Would it be a judgemental aspect I discern in your post? Spence has requested and a need for information that I am not aware of being procurable on this public forum. I helpfully suggested how he could source that which he lacks. No judgement intended, just amused at your continued enthusiasm, and somewhat in awe of the time you can commit here
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Post by fixit on Nov 4, 2014 19:09:03 GMT -5
As a member of the fellowship I want to apologise to exes for Review005's behaviour on TMB.
I don't want to be identified with the attitude revealed in his posts and I think most members of the 2x2 ministry and fellowship would say the same.
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Post by Mary on Nov 4, 2014 19:56:34 GMT -5
I still have not received a reply to my post regarding what Review005 wrote.
Review005, how have Ross's experience of leaving been best for your fellowship?
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Post by fixit on Nov 4, 2014 19:57:08 GMT -5
Fixit Thank you for the confirmation I needed. I doubt that your cyber-bullying would be tolerated in most workplaces. You don't need to be as obnoxious as you are coming across here on TMB. I think your off-line persona is much more respectable than your anonymous online persona. You can do better than this.
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Post by fixit on Nov 4, 2014 20:08:42 GMT -5
Fixit Thank you for the confirmation I needed. The many apologies you offer on behalf of others for many things is curious... and again confirming. Sadly, apologies from workers are few and far between. Yes, I am truly sorry for all the unchristlike thoughts, words and deeds by which friends and workers have abused people.
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Post by fixit on Nov 4, 2014 20:12:50 GMT -5
So you are back again expressing your opinions again? "You can do better" is good advice for any sycophant or minion. Do you have respect for anyone - other than sycophants and minions?
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Post by Mary on Nov 4, 2014 20:44:24 GMT -5
I still have not received a reply to my post regarding what Review005 wrote. Review005, how have Ross's experience of leaving been best for your fellowship? Oh Mary have you been sleeping? You didn't notice that Fred answered for me? I made mention of my appreciation for that. I noticed Fred answered when I was sleeping but I prefer to hear it from the horses mouth - so to speak. So what is your answer as I am not sure if Fred and you think the same.
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Post by fixit on Nov 4, 2014 20:51:11 GMT -5
Sadly, apologies from workers are few and far between. Yes, I am truly sorry for all the unchristlike thoughts, words and deeds by which friends and workers have abused people. Good for you fixit, yuup you have it correct, just as I mentioned, Workers the worst, then a few friends. I guess you notice it so different amongst 'the world' you'd think non apologetic workers would catch on. But no they don't & it's left to you to apologise for them. I should clarify....the workers who have the most to apologise for are the least willing to apologise. I respect many workers who are doing their best under difficult circumstances.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 5, 2014 1:35:31 GMT -5
Fixit Thank you for the confirmation I needed. I doubt that your cyber-bullying would be tolerated in most workplaces. You don't need to be as obnoxious as you are coming across here on TMB. I think your off-line persona is much more respectable than your anonymous online persona. You can do better than this. Not only would his bullying ways be not tolerated in a work place, in some work places that I am familiar with he would have met with an accident by now! In my view he must be one extremely frustrated individual. He cannot control what people say here about the cult he is a minister in. He can only control people and what they that are in the same physical sphere he moves in.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 5, 2014 3:04:10 GMT -5
No problem Revs, if things keep slipping from your mind like that then we better look after you.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 5, 2014 6:20:49 GMT -5
Ross posted "For clarity (Ross's version) of the 2x2 version of Jesus is that:
- He is not God the Son (although it is preached he is the Son of God and our Saviour) - His humanity is often emphasised far more than his divinity - it fits in with a works based approach to salvation. - He is regularly referred to as an elder brother who was obedient to the end, who kept the faith and who overcame and as a result inherited the Crown - and workers are doing/have done this too - this fits in with the 2x2 ministry's view of their specific role and authority. - You very rarely hear the death/resurrection of Jesus mentioned and of the tens of funeral notes I have read of workers from around the world it is never mentioned that they trusted in Christ's death and resurrection as the sole source of their hope for eternal life - this is largely because the sacrifice of a worker in "being willing to give up all" (whatever that means) is what is important. Put simply, if Christ's role as the complete source of our salvation was essential or critically important it would be mentioned - but it doesn't seem to rate a mention."
Undoubtedly there will be posters whose version will be identical or very similar to Ross's but the Jesus I know and also preach is quite unlike Ross's 2x2 version. I gladly state my own experience below to clarify. - He is not God the Son (although it is preached he is the Son of God and our Saviour) I use the Biblical 'Son of God' terminology. I have not found that inadequate in any way and feel if 'God the Son' was more correct that men like the Apostle John who had a deep and close relationship with God would have used it rather than the Son of God which they exclusively use. But if people like Ross rather feel the need to use 'God the Son' and feel that helps separates them from the incorrect 2x2 Jesus, then so be it. - His humanity is often emphasised far more than his divinity - it fits in with a works based approach to salvation. In examining myself I find it his divinity that I most deeply appreciate and speak of. I also appreciate his humanity of course and that he understood and experienced what we do. I understand Jesus to be fully God and fully man. Something that is beyond the my human mind to comprehend. - He is regularly referred to as an elder brother who was obedient to the end, who kept the faith and who overcame and as a result inherited the Crown - and workers are doing/have done this too - this fits in with the 2x2 ministry's view of their specific role and authority. I do not remember ever referring to Jesus as an elder brother. I have occasionally heard it used but never in the context Ross portrays.
- You very rarely hear the death/resurrection of Jesus mentioned and of the tens of funeral notes I have read of workers from around the world it is never mentioned that they trusted in Christ's death and resurrection as the sole source of their hope for eternal life - this is largely because the sacrifice of a worker in "being willing to give up all" (whatever that means) is what is important.
Your experience is very different to mine. I often speak and often hear of our Lord's death and resurrection. I love and often mention the hymn "grant us the faith that understands our only hope is Calvary"Put simply, if Christ's role as the complete source of our salvation was essential or critically important it would be mentioned - but it doesn't seem to rate a mention.
Are you serious?
Review, have a look at number 9 in the old hymn book, last verse, "With my Christ, my Elder Brother " . Funny thing is in the new hymn book the same hymn is number 90, BUT the words have been changed, no more "Elder brother" I wonder why ?
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Post by Mary on Nov 5, 2014 11:14:38 GMT -5
You are correct Ross what you state is exactly what people say is being preached. It is also exactly what was preached when I was growing up too. People have been saying all the long that it is Jesus + the ministry and the church in the home. It is not Jesus only. Jesus being our elder brother has been preached in NZ since the beginning too. It was certainly preached all the years I was growing up in the same conventions that review attended.
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Post by fixit on Nov 5, 2014 13:31:01 GMT -5
Jesus being our elder brother has been preached in NZ since the beginning too. It was certainly preached all the years I was growing up in the same conventions that review attended. I'm with the workers on this one...
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Post by fixit on Nov 5, 2014 13:37:03 GMT -5
It seems that this concept of Jesus as our brother was as hard to accept 117 years ago as it is today...
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Nov 5, 2014 14:42:15 GMT -5
The various churches I have attended have all presented Jesus as our elder brother AND prophet, priest, and king, AND redeemer and Savior. I would say that for most of the 60 some odd years I was in the fellowship, the emphasis of the preaching was on Jesus as our elder brother--our perfect example. The catchphrase was 'he came to show us how to live.' Yes, we had the emblems, but in our meeting, the broken body that the bread represented was prayed for as his perfect life. I'm sure there are geographical variations, however.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 5, 2014 20:34:43 GMT -5
Well Review as I have stated above with Hymn number 9 in the old Hymn Book it is there in black & white, yet in the new book as hymn number 90 the words "Elder Brother" have been taken out, so why ? Also this is not my opinion on the 2x2's referring to Jesus as our "Elder Brother" it is a fact written in a Hymn that we have all sung !
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 5, 2014 21:10:50 GMT -5
As I've mentioned already one of the interesting things about Ross Bowden giving feedback on TMB is that his posts oft reveal as much about Ross as they do about the 'ross version' '2x2 version Jesus', horror worker stories etc that he posts I'm able now to understand that from his perspective he is often sincere and truly believes it to be as he sees and posts. Review, you probably shouldn't call the kettle black.
You may be unaware of it, but your own posts reveal more about you than they do anything else.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 5, 2014 21:19:55 GMT -5
As I've mentioned already one of the interesting things about Ross Bowden giving feedback on TMB is that his posts oft reveal as much about Ross as they do about the 'ross version' '2x2 version Jesus', horror worker stories etc that he posts I'm able now to understand that from his perspective he is often sincere and truly believes it to be as he sees and posts. Review, the Hymn I have quoted twice backs up what Ross has said. Also as far as what he said about people not wanting Clyde to take their funeral I can back that up also. He took my late ex-husbands grandmothers funeral & it was a disgrace, she was 96 years old had been professing for at least 76 years, had a meeting in her home for at least 50 years & Clyde could not even get her name right at the funeral service ! After that his mother passed away & family said that if Clyde was taking the funeral they would not go.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 5, 2014 22:33:22 GMT -5
Thanks Ross, This last post conforms to pattern. scandal, coercion, a little horror/shame and....... more ross. Review do I need to post again to get an answer? Maybe you better add me to your summary of Ross, because as I have stated but you didn't reply to there are a lot of people that have had the same experience as Ross. So what is your opinion on a worker not remembering the name of the person who's funeral they are taking?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 6, 2014 0:23:38 GMT -5
This is the bibles description of our elder brother.
“He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him, nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.”
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Post by emy on Nov 6, 2014 0:44:36 GMT -5
"If you feel it is okay that workers bring out the blasphemy card when folks question what a worker says..."
How is it they use the blasphemy card? I'd think it would only be appropriate when a person disputes some scripture that was the words of God or Jesus.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Nov 6, 2014 1:41:44 GMT -5
"If you feel it is okay that workers bring out the blasphemy card when folks question what a worker says..."How is it they use the blasphemy card? I'd think it would only be appropriate when a person disputes some scripture that was the words of God or Jesus. emy - it may be more of an Australian thing. Over the years down under if you question what a worker has said in a meeting you are told that you are questioning Jesus. Miriam/Aaron are often brought into the conversation. The worker will say - you might think that you are questioning me but Jesus said in Matthew 25:20 "inasmuch as ye do it unto one of these the least of my brethren ye are doing it unto me...", therefore when you question me you are questioning Jesus. The fact that Matt 25:20 has nothing to do with this at all, doesn't matter. The scripture is twisted to suit the argument. You are then led to 12:32 where you are told that blasphemy against the Spirit is unforgivable. So, the worker then puts 2 and 2 together to get 22 and concludes that because you have questioned a servant of God who has been appointed by God you are questioning Jesus and the Holy Spirit and you have committed blasphemy. I suspect that it emanated from John Hardie - one of the main early workers who I did not know - and was used by Gordon McNab (who I did know) and also by Clyde Mackay (current Head Worker). fred and others may also be able to comment.
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Post by emy on Nov 6, 2014 2:06:48 GMT -5
"If you feel it is okay that workers bring out the blasphemy card when folks question what a worker says..."How is it they use the blasphemy card? I'd think it would only be appropriate when a person disputes some scripture that was the words of God or Jesus. emy - it may be more of an Australian thing. Over the years down under if you question what a worker has said in a meeting you are told that you are questioning Jesus. Miriam/Aaron are often brought into the conversation. The worker will say - you might think that you are questioning me but Jesus said in Matthew 25:20 "inasmuch as ye do it unto one of these the least of my brethren ye are doing it unto me...", therefore when you question me you are questioning Jesus. The fact that Matt 25:20 has nothing to do with this at all, doesn't matter. The scripture is twisted to suit the argument. You are then led to 12:32 where you are told that blasphemy against the Spirit is unforgivable. So, the worker then puts 2 and 2 together to get 22 and concludes that because you have questioned a servant of God who has been appointed by God you are questioning Jesus and the Holy Spirit and you have committed blasphemy. I suspect that it emanated from John Hardie - one of the main early workers who I did not know - and was used by Gordon McNab (who I did know) and also by Clyde Mackay (current Head Worker). fred and others may also be able to comment. Thanks for your reply. I hope some others also will.
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