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Post by déjà vu on Aug 10, 2014 18:23:18 GMT -5
Older worker calls it a devilish, doctrine do you agree?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 18:54:47 GMT -5
no although i dearly loved uncle dan hilton....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 19:51:06 GMT -5
no although i dearly loved uncle dan hilton.... You believe in the Trinity doctrine then? Do you know of many who do? yes...its never come up so i dont know how many there are...i vaguely remember tharold sylvester? speaking on it in a positive light but thats it...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 11, 2014 10:00:29 GMT -5
yes...its never come up so i dont know how many there are...i vaguely remember tharold sylvester? speaking on it in a positive light but thats it... Thanks Wally. How did you come to believe in the Trinity doctrine if it's not taught by the workers? If people don't talk about it I wonder if they do believe it, but like you don't let anyone else know, or does it mean they don't believe it? I know for sure my parents who professed for 78 and 72 years, never even knew about the Trinity, or if they did, they never believed it. They always likened Jesus to an older more perfect brother, who achieved divinity but was never God. I believed in the Trinity while I was still professing! After I'd studied Jesus Christ for about 3 years and had some long arguments with Nathan and Stanne here on TMB with Scott sometimes putting a bit of information in the kettle, I had to realize that all that Nathan and Stanne were saying about the Trinity was definitely in the bible even thought the word "Trinity" wasn't! As time passed and more realization of what the Trinity was all about, and I'll say we that do believe are always gaining more insight into it as we go on and maturity of using the word of God(the bible) feeding on the "meat of the word" that it is certainly like most of mankind throughout the ages that as each generation lives and dies the more understanding of the heavenly God has come into the minds of that generation. I think the main reason the trinity doctrine or concept is anathema to the workers is this not being able to understand it...this may well come from them not understanding about JesusChrist...they profess an understanding but they usually never get beyond the milk of the word, so thus they are never strong enough int heir understandings that they are able to fathom such a divine miracle as the triune God! As it was said above the workers and many friends do not Know what "divine" means....I've encouraged the ones I know to kind of look at it like what the "royal" family is to what the peasants are....they are many rungs of the ladder above them and are respected for that family designation of "royalty"! Yes, 2x2s very seldom look at Jesus other then just as another man, who through obedience, received the approval of God in Heaven! And thus is why they expect all of them to "work" to be like Jesus so that all can have the approval of God.... The other day I read where Paul mentioned that those who lived by the law had to follow the law completely and this would be those who are into the salvation by works for this alone was the Mosaic law.....a works based obedience and promise for God's continued approval! So when someone in the fellowship begins to put on long skirts and put their hair into buns, then they are required to follow the rest of the law of Moses' day because works will not grant us salvation since the Lamb of God has already been slain and works will not bring salvation but "faith" will bring salvation....and it is so easy...for the Father draws us, the faith we have is a gift from heaven, the Son cleanses us, sanctifies us, Justifies us.....not much for us to do other then be penitent and willing! So I feel that ignorance and misunderstanding is what is keeping most in the 2x2 from acc epting or knowing the trinity concept!
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Post by emy on Aug 11, 2014 12:49:19 GMT -5
I believed in the Trinity while I was still professing! After I'd studied Jesus Christ for about 3 years and had some long arguments with Nathan and Stanne here on TMB with Scott sometimes putting a bit of information in the kettle, I had to realize that all that Nathan and Stanne were saying about the Trinity was definitely in the bible even thought the word "Trinity" wasn't! As time passed and more realization of what the Trinity was all about, and I'll say we that do believe are always gaining more insight into it as we go on and maturity of using the word of God(the bible) feeding on the "meat of the word" that it is certainly like most of mankind throughout the ages that as each generation lives and dies the more understanding of the heavenly God has come into the minds of that generation. I think the main reason the trinity doctrine or concept is anathema to the workers is this not being able to understand it...this may well come from them not understanding about JesusChrist...they profess an understanding but they usually never get beyond the milk of the word, so thus they are never strong enough int heir understandings that they are able to fathom such a divine miracle as the triune God! As it was said above the workers and many friends do not Know what "divine" means....I've encouraged the ones I know to kind of look at it like what the "royal" family is to what the peasants are....they are many rungs of the ladder above them and are respected for that family designation of "royalty"! Yes, 2x2s very seldom look at Jesus other then just as another man, who through obedience, received the approval of God in Heaven! And thus is why they expect all of them to "work" to be like Jesus so that all can have the approval of God.... The other day I read where Paul mentioned that those who lived by the law had to follow the law completely and this would be those who are into the salvation by works for this alone was the Mosaic law.....a works based obedience and promise for God's continued approval! So when someone in the fellowship begins to put on long skirts and put their hair into buns, then they are required to follow the rest of the law of Moses' day because works will not grant us salvation since the Lamb of God has already been slain and works will not bring salvation but "faith" will bring salvation....and it is so easy...for the Father draws us, the faith we have is a gift from heaven, the Son cleanses us, sanctifies us, Justifies us.....not much for us to do other then be penitent and willing! So I feel that ignorance and misunderstanding is what is keeping most in the 2x2 from acc epting or knowing the trinity concept! *sigh* Sharon, I thought you had gone beyond this sort of post that paints almost all in the fellowship in such poor light. And this is outright false: Yes, 2x2s very seldom look at Jesus other then just as another man, who through obedience, received the approval of God in Heaven! And thus is why they expect all of them to "work" to be like Jesus so that all can have the approval of God...Do you not believe this addition is also true? .... ....not much for us to do other then be penitent and willing..[ and obedient]! That's where the "doing" comes in; not in trying to be saved by our works.
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 11, 2014 13:38:37 GMT -5
no although i dearly loved uncle dan hilton.... You believe in the Trinity doctrine then? Do you know of many who do? We as mere mortals are not capable of discussing this subject. It is beyond comprehension. The Father,Son, and the Holy Ghost are so united that they seem to us as one. Heaven is now forever different because when the Son returned in the glorified body showed the nail prints in his hands, a spear wound in his side, and scars from the crown of thorns. The Father does not bear these marks neither does the Holy Ghost. Now to prove we do not understand this concept this thread will go in multiple directions. These are my thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 14:25:25 GMT -5
There are non-believers and partial-believers. This is not written for them.
For who, then? The Choir! There are some who are fully persuaded believers, by experience, circumstance, education, knowledge and understanding, by at least a partial gift of the Holy Spirit, who teaches all willing for His presence,what the mere human mind by itself cannot comprehend.
For such, let us call them for purpose of this expression, "fully persuaded believers," at least partially led, filled, and taught by the gift of the Holy Spirit. They believe (as do I) that Yehu'shuah (God-savior) is set down with His Father in His Father's throne, where in the fullness of time He will invite "overcomers" to also come sit down with Him and the The Father, (who some of us know as Abba Father, {dear Daddy.})
Even so, at some period the Lamb emerges from (that throne?) to perform that which only He is found worthy to do. Can I fully comprehend this or explain this with my human thought process alone? Absolutely not, however with the understanding, teaching, etc. I believe coming from the Holy Spirit, I can make attemps like this.
Such is a partial view from my perspective of my Lord, Yahu'shuah ha Meshiach!
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Post by emy on Aug 11, 2014 14:38:33 GMT -5
*sigh* Sharon, I thought you had gone beyond this sort of post that paints almost all in the fellowship in such poor light. And this is outright false: Yes, 2x2s very seldom look at Jesus other then just as another man, who through obedience, received the approval of God in Heaven! And thus is why they expect all of them to "work" to be like Jesus so that all can have the approval of God...Do you not believe this addition is also true? .... ....not much for us to do other then be penitent and willing..[ and obedient]! That's where the "doing" comes in; not in trying to be saved by our works. Do you believe in the Trinity doctrine Emy? Do many in your area believe in the Trinity? If not, what do you and others believe? Thanks No, I do not believe in the Trinity in terms of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I do believe in the oneness of them. (See John 14:16 + and John 17). Through the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who meet the requirements, we can all become "One." (John 17 again) Jesus confirmed the statement that Peter made: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. That, along with the fact Jesus never stated he was God the Son, gives support to what I believe: Jesus was, is, has been, and will be the Son of God. The Trinity is not a discussion point among the fellowship, but I think most that I know would agree with the statement above.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 11, 2014 15:03:29 GMT -5
You believe in the Trinity doctrine then? Do you know of many who do? We as mere mortals are not capable of discussing this subject. It is beyond comprehension. The Father,Son, and the Holy Ghost are so united that they seem to us as one. Heaven is now forever different because when the Son returned in the glorified body showed the nail prints in his hands, a spear wound in his side, and scars from the crown of thorns. The Father does not bear these marks neither does the Holy Ghost. Now to prove we do not understand this concept this thread will go in multiple directions. These are my thoughts. Why can't mere mortals be able to discuss the subject of the Trinity?
After all it was mere mortals who created the idea of a Trinity.
If these men could formulate the concept in their time, should it be so above people's ability to discuss it now? from wiki Trinity of the Church Fathers"The Ante-Nicene Fathers affirmed Christ's deity and spoke of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", even though their language is not that of the traditional doctrine as formalised in the fourth century.
Trinitarians view these as elements of the codified doctrine.[25]
Ignatius of Antioch provides early support for the Trinity around 110,[26] exhorting obedience to "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit".[27]
Justin Martyr (AD 100–c. 165) also writes, "in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit".[28]
The first of the early church fathers to be recorded using the word "Trinity" was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century.
He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia)[29] in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation.
The first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by the early church father Tertullian.
He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended the Trinitarian theology against the "Praxean" heresy."
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 11, 2014 15:16:01 GMT -5
I believed in the Trinity while I was still professing! After I'd studied Jesus Christ for about 3 years and had some long arguments with Nathan and Stanne here on TMB with Scott sometimes putting a bit of information in the kettle, I had to realize that all that Nathan and Stanne were saying about the Trinity was definitely in the bible even thought the word "Trinity" wasn't! As time passed and more realization of what the Trinity was all about, and I'll say we that do believe are always gaining more insight into it as we go on and maturity of using the word of God(the bible) feeding on the "meat of the word" that it is certainly like most of mankind throughout the ages that as each generation lives and dies the more understanding of the heavenly God has come into the minds of that generation. I think the main reason the trinity doctrine or concept is anathema to the workers is this not being able to understand it...this may well come from them not understanding about JesusChrist...they profess an understanding but they usually never get beyond the milk of the word, so thus they are never strong enough int heir understandings that they are able to fathom such a divine miracle as the triune God! As it was said above the workers and many friends do not Know what "divine" means....I've encouraged the ones I know to kind of look at it like what the "royal" family is to what the peasants are....they are many rungs of the ladder above them and are respected for that family designation of "royalty"! Yes, 2x2s very seldom look at Jesus other then just as another man, who through obedience, received the approval of God in Heaven! And thus is why they expect all of them to "work" to be like Jesus so that all can have the approval of God.... The other day I read where Paul mentioned that those who lived by the law had to follow the law completely and this would be those who are into the salvation by works for this alone was the Mosaic law.....a works based obedience and promise for God's continued approval! So when someone in the fellowship begins to put on long skirts and put their hair into buns, then they are required to follow the rest of the law of Moses' day because works will not grant us salvation since the Lamb of God has already been slain and works will not bring salvation but "faith" will bring salvation....and it is so easy...for the Father draws us, the faith we have is a gift from heaven, the Son cleanses us, sanctifies us, Justifies us.....not much for us to do other then be penitent and willing! So I feel that ignorance and misunderstanding is what is keeping most in the 2x2 from acc epting or knowing the trinity concept! I think that most people in religion tend to just listen to their preachers and believe them. The majority probably don't go beyond that as far as studying what the Bible really says. I find I know more about the bible then my sisters. When I quote something to back up what I'm saying, they haven't a clue what I'm talking about and I have to show them where it is in the bible. They don't get a rounded picture of bible literature just listening to a sermon at the church. They don't talk about the bad stuff in it, they just keep repeating the same verses over and over that support their agenda and what they want the people to know. I think most people say "Amen" when they get a good feeling.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 11, 2014 15:23:34 GMT -5
We as mere mortals are not capable of discussing this subject. It is beyond comprehension. The Father,Son, and the Holy Ghost are so united that they seem to us as one. Heaven is now forever different because when the Son returned in the glorified body showed the nail prints in his hands, a spear wound in his side, and scars from the crown of thorns. The Father does not bear these marks neither does the Holy Ghost. Now to prove we do not understand this concept this thread will go in multiple directions. These are my thoughts. Why can't mere mortals be able to discuss the subject of the Trinity?
After all it was mere mortals who created the idea of a Trinity.
If these men could formulate the concept in their time, should it be so above people's ability to discuss it now? from wiki Trinity of the Church Fathers"The Ante-Nicene Fathers affirmed Christ's deity and spoke of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", even though their language is not that of the traditional doctrine as formalised in the fourth century.
Trinitarians view these as elements of the codified doctrine.[25]
Ignatius of Antioch provides early support for the Trinity around 110,[26] exhorting obedience to "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit".[27]
Justin Martyr (AD 100–c. 165) also writes, "in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit".[28]
The first of the early church fathers to be recorded using the word "Trinity" was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century.
He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia)[29] in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation.
The first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by the early church father Tertullian.
He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended the Trinitarian theology against the "Praxean" heresy."
Before there was the Christian Trinity, there were numerous other such trinities. "Things happen in threes," is much older than the Trinity !!!!! Then came the accommodation of the "three strokes" Pagan mindset when .... you got it. Too many people needed the third one, and Mary wouldn't do. There really wasn't anything wrong with the "breath of life", but a "holy spirit" demands more reverence. So ordered!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 15:25:44 GMT -5
yes...its never come up so i dont know how many there are...i vaguely remember tharold sylvester? speaking on it in a positive light but thats it... Thanks Wally. How did you come to believe in the Trinity doctrine if it's not taught by the workers? If people don't talk about it I wonder if they do believe it, but like you don't let anyone else know, or does it mean they don't believe it? I know for sure my parents who professed for 78 and 72 years, never even knew about the Trinity, or if they did, they never believed it. They always likened Jesus to an older more perfect brother, who achieved divinity but was never God. it was taught to me by my grandma and grandpa mother and aunt whom all professed...
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Post by emy on Aug 11, 2014 15:30:12 GMT -5
Emy, you believe in ONENESS. The Father is God to be ONENESS with God wouldn't you think Jesus and the Holy Spirit have to be God also themselves? to be ONE with God the Father?
Nate, then to continue in how I believe, I must also be God, because we can be one with Him and with His Son. That was Jesus' prayer, and is accomplished through the work of the Holy Spirit.
My disagreement with the Trinity doctrine comes in the belief that Jesus was God the Son here on earth and so was unable to sin. I believe he had the power of divinity because he completely submitted his human will to God's will and had the Holy Spirit without measure. John 3:34
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Post by SharonArnold on Aug 11, 2014 15:33:22 GMT -5
I think most people say "Amen" when they get a good feeling. Ummm. Yeah. Or else they want to be heard saying 'Amen'.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 11, 2014 19:24:30 GMT -5
I think most people say "Amen" when they get a good feeling. Ummm. Yeah. Or else they want to be heard saying 'Amen'. Never thought of that!
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 11, 2014 22:31:04 GMT -5
Why can't mere mortals be able to discuss the subject of the Trinity?
After all it was mere mortals who created the idea of a Trinity.
If these men could formulate the concept in their time, should it be so above people's ability to discuss it now? from wiki Trinity of the Church Fathers"The Ante-Nicene Fathers affirmed Christ's deity and spoke of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", even though their language is not that of the traditional doctrine as formalised in the fourth century.
Trinitarians view these as elements of the codified doctrine.[25]
Ignatius of Antioch provides early support for the Trinity around 110,[26] exhorting obedience to "Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit".[27]
Justin Martyr (AD 100–c. 165) also writes, "in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit".[28]
The first of the early church fathers to be recorded using the word "Trinity" was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century.
He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia)[29] in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation.
The first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by the early church father Tertullian.
He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended the Trinitarian theology against the "Praxean" heresy."
Before there was the Christian Trinity, there were numerous other such trinities. "Things happen in threes," is much older than the Trinity !!!!! Then came the accommodation of the "three strokes" Pagan mindset when .... you got it. Too many people needed the third one, and Mary wouldn't do. There really wasn't anything wrong with the "breath of life", but a "holy spirit" demands more reverence. So ordered! What I don't understand is the "third" one in the Trinity is (Sophia) which I had thought was a WOMAN! God forbid!
I know it says here, "God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia)"
I thought Sophia was a Greek goddess.
Did they hijack the Greek goddess & change HER into a HE?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 11, 2014 23:06:33 GMT -5
Before there was the Christian Trinity, there were numerous other such trinities. "Things happen in threes," is much older than the Trinity !!!!! Then came the accommodation of the "three strokes" Pagan mindset when .... you got it. Too many people needed the third one, and Mary wouldn't do. There really wasn't anything wrong with the "breath of life", but a "holy spirit" demands more reverence. So ordered! What I don't understand is the "third" one in the Trinity is (Sophia) which I had thought was a WOMAN! God forbid!
I know it says here, "God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia)"
I thought Sophia was a Greek goddess.
Did they hijack the Greek goddess & change HER into a HE?
Like a lot of other things, the names for a lot of gods became used as what we would call common nouns for abstract concepts. Or just as possibly the other way around. This is all Greek. But "sophia" (common noun) meant Wisdom. And in languages that classify all nouns by gender, "wisdom" gets to be a feminine word. [Take note, ladies.] Something about "Sophia" that I learned is most interesting. It involves the first chapter of the Bible -- "Let us ...." Christians love to interpret that as God and Jesus, and even the Holy Spirit, I guess. But apparently the Greeks (who are responsible for the Trinity) understood the "us" to be God and "wisdom". Wisdom just being what it is from eternity and unchanged by events in time. Also, when wisdom is spoken of in the Bible it turns out to be "she" in English. Obviously the feminine pronoun in Greek prompted "she" in English instead of "it". They have the same problem with French. "Wisdom" is "la sagesse", and the pronoun is "elle" -- which is ambiguous out of context because in English it means either "she" or "it" depending on the context, but to refer to "sagesse/wisdom" as "she" in English is incorrect -- it has to be "it". So Sophia was not part of the Trinity. Which makes for an interesting observation of "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." [John 1:1] It's really nothing more than a claim that an assurance that what was written in that gospel was the exact testament of God -- previously spoken by God and now being written down; and not false like the words of other gods. I think Christians try to find "the Word" to mean something about the Trinity too, but I haven't investigated that because the source of the Christian trinity is well documented by those who forced it on the early Christian church. Probably TMI.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 12, 2014 9:39:40 GMT -5
I believed in the Trinity while I was still professing! After I'd studied Jesus Christ for about 3 years and had some long arguments with Nathan and Stanne here on TMB with Scott sometimes putting a bit of information in the kettle, I had to realize that all that Nathan and Stanne were saying about the Trinity was definitely in the bible even thought the word "Trinity" wasn't! As time passed and more realization of what the Trinity was all about, and I'll say we that do believe are always gaining more insight into it as we go on and maturity of using the word of God(the bible) feeding on the "meat of the word" that it is certainly like most of mankind throughout the ages that as each generation lives and dies the more understanding of the heavenly God has come into the minds of that generation. I think the main reason the trinity doctrine or concept is anathema to the workers is this not being able to understand it...this may well come from them not understanding about JesusChrist...they profess an understanding but they usually never get beyond the milk of the word, so thus they are never strong enough int heir understandings that they are able to fathom such a divine miracle as the triune God! As it was said above the workers and many friends do not Know what "divine" means....I've encouraged the ones I know to kind of look at it like what the "royal" family is to what the peasants are....they are many rungs of the ladder above them and are respected for that family designation of "royalty"! Yes, 2x2s very seldom look at Jesus other then just as another man, who through obedience, received the approval of God in Heaven! And thus is why they expect all of them to "work" to be like Jesus so that all can have the approval of God.... The other day I read where Paul mentioned that those who lived by the law had to follow the law completely and this would be those who are into the salvation by works for this alone was the Mosaic law.....a works based obedience and promise for God's continued approval! So when someone in the fellowship begins to put on long skirts and put their hair into buns, then they are required to follow the rest of the law of Moses' day because works will not grant us salvation since the Lamb of God has already been slain and works will not bring salvation but "faith" will bring salvation....and it is so easy...for the Father draws us, the faith we have is a gift from heaven, the Son cleanses us, sanctifies us, Justifies us.....not much for us to do other then be penitent and willing! So I feel that ignorance and misunderstanding is what is keeping most in the 2x2 from acc epting or knowing the trinity concept! I think that most people in religion tend to just listen to their preachers and believe them. The majority probably don't go beyond that as far as studying what the Bible really says. I find I know more about the bible then my sisters. When I quote something to back up what I'm saying, they haven't a clue what I'm talking about and I have to show them where it is in the bible. They don't get a rounded picture of bible literature just listening to a sermon at the church. They don't talk about the bad stuff in it, they just keep repeating the same verses over and over that support their agenda and what they want the people to know. Very true! I know those last three years that I stayed in the 2x2s, that when I spoke in mtg. that there were some who didn't seem to know exactly what I was saying even though I had given them chapter and verse! This was one of things I knew would get me excommunicated and with friendly feelings for the overseer of that mtg. I quit before he would have been forced by some of those folks' demands to get rid of me! I feel God was guiding me in all of that because according to one person's email that accidently got sent to me, there'd already been some bad rumors about things I'd been saying though again I had given chapter and verse. This person felt threatened, I think in that I was showing what the bible really was saying. It's strange when I run onto scripture that I know has been studied and spoken on by 2x2sd and yet their interpretation isn't anywhere near what the scripture is trying to say...otherwords a phrase here and a phrase there is what makes up their tesitmonies.....even workers do that. Ron Thomke was very good at taking ONE WORD out of some bible study and making a 45 min. sermon on it. Everybody thought him so wonderful to be able to do that! I now, wonder, for I can't even remember what he said! And I have notes and I've gone back and reread that scripture where he found his one word! I can't bring it all together....so there it goes...and I know others who have done the same thing and they've admitted that they've tried to remember exactly what he said so they could repeat in their Sun mtg so those who didn't get to conv. would be fed also!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 12, 2014 9:45:05 GMT -5
True. The Hindu religion which is one of the oldest around also had the trinity. Brahman, Shiva and Vishnu. ~~ The Trinity=Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) exists from Eternity before any religion came into existence!Jesus said in John 17:5,24 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.... Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.Nathan, thanks for coming up with this reminder! IT's true even I don't always remember that the triune God existed before the world ever became...and yes, I often speak of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost in the context of the creation of all things...but as a defense that the Christian triune God existing before any thing else never dawned on me....so thank you, again!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 12, 2014 9:54:24 GMT -5
You believe in the Trinity doctrine then? Do you know of many who do? We as mere mortals are not capable of discussing this subject. It is beyond comprehension. The Father,Son, and the Holy Ghost are so united that they seem to us as one. Heaven is now forever different because when the Son returned in the glorified body showed the nail prints in his hands, a spear wound in his side, and scars from the crown of thorns. The Father does not bear these marks neither does the Holy Ghost. Now to prove we do not understand this concept this thread will go in multiple directions. These are my thoughts. I believe likewise...that is how every eye that sees Jesus on his return will "know him"....and that is by the scars he bears for his bride's cleansing and eternal salvation. The grace of God being bought by those things that scarred Jesus' hands, feet, head and side! I think that is why the story about doubting Thomas was left on record is so that we'll know that we also will be able to "see these sufferings in a physical way" that Jesus did for our sake! Also Jesus told folks that those who had seen him had seen the Father, those who knew him would know the Father. Also he called the Holy Spirit the "comforter"....so when we receive comforting spiritually, would be not then realize we've come in contact with the Holy Spirit? That we've felt the Holy Spirit of God? Christiansburg, you're not wrong by any means. However I'm uncertain that all of this has anything to do with the Trinity concept but it is ok if it is what we can feel and know about our God and Saviour!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 12, 2014 10:00:26 GMT -5
I believed in the Trinity while I was still professing! After I'd studied Jesus Christ for about 3 years and had some long arguments with Nathan and Stanne here on TMB with Scott sometimes putting a bit of information in the kettle, I had to realize that all that Nathan and Stanne were saying about the Trinity was definitely in the bible even thought the word "Trinity" wasn't! As time passed and more realization of what the Trinity was all about, and I'll say we that do believe are always gaining more insight into it as we go on and maturity of using the word of God(the bible) feeding on the "meat of the word" that it is certainly like most of mankind throughout the ages that as each generation lives and dies the more understanding of the heavenly God has come into the minds of that generation. I think the main reason the trinity doctrine or concept is anathema to the workers is this not being able to understand it...this may well come from them not understanding about JesusChrist...they profess an understanding but they usually never get beyond the milk of the word, so thus they are never strong enough int heir understandings that they are able to fathom such a divine miracle as the triune God! As it was said above the workers and many friends do not Know what "divine" means....I've encouraged the ones I know to kind of look at it like what the "royal" family is to what the peasants are....they are many rungs of the ladder above them and are respected for that family designation of "royalty"! Yes, 2x2s very seldom look at Jesus other then just as another man, who through obedience, received the approval of God in Heaven! And thus is why they expect all of them to "work" to be like Jesus so that all can have the approval of God.... The other day I read where Paul mentioned that those who lived by the law had to follow the law completely and this would be those who are into the salvation by works for this alone was the Mosaic law.....a works based obedience and promise for God's continued approval! So when someone in the fellowship begins to put on long skirts and put their hair into buns, then they are required to follow the rest of the law of Moses' day because works will not grant us salvation since the Lamb of God has already been slain and works will not bring salvation but "faith" will bring salvation....and it is so easy...for the Father draws us, the faith we have is a gift from heaven, the Son cleanses us, sanctifies us, Justifies us.....not much for us to do other then be penitent and willing! So I feel that ignorance and misunderstanding is what is keeping most in the 2x2 from acc epting or knowing the trinity concept! *sigh* Sharon, I thought you had gone beyond this sort of post that paints almost all in the fellowship in such poor light. And this is outright false: Yes, 2x2s very seldom look at Jesus other then just as another man, who through obedience, received the approval of God in Heaven! And thus is why they expect all of them to "work" to be like Jesus so that all can have the approval of God...Do you not believe this addition is also true? .... ....not much for us to do other then be penitent and willing..[ and obedient]! That's where the "doing" comes in; not in trying to be saved by our works. Emy, I have found that your noun "obedience" is truly a whole lot more of a loving reaction when one understands a tad about the trinity concept for then we have a bit of knowledge exactly who is Jesus and why "obedience" is something that is okay with the God in heaven! Otherwords without that, we then lose our hold on who we are obeying which some in the 2x2s are obeying the workers and the workers are not the ones who should always been obeyed! That's been over abundantly evident in the last few years. "You shall know them by their fruits." That is where I am, Emy, and I pray everyone who has either been in the 2x2s and still are in the 2x2s start examining the workers and their "fruits". The very worker who told me this turned out to be the very one who I should be wary of because of his fruits! Perhaps he feels about me the same way!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 12, 2014 10:15:20 GMT -5
So, Emy.... How about the verses below where Jesus said he is the God Almighty and we are His Children? Jesus said in Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 11:16-17 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. Rev. 21:6,7 He that sat on the throne said unto me , "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son. Emy, you believe in ONENESS. The Father is God to be ONENESS with God wouldn't you think Jesus and the Holy Spirit have to be God also themselves? to be ONE with God the Father?The apostle Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection, "My Lord and My God" in John 20:24-29 Jesus is BOTH, the Son of God and also God the Son. Maybe that just refers to the oneness that Emy talks about. If everything is created by God, you would be a part of that God in a sense, and everything that is made would be connected, or 'one' for another word for it, because of that connection. If that is the case, then everything that is has always existed in the form of God. When God created he just spread himself around a bit. Okay, Snow...let's step back into the thing you often say is very important and I agree...and this is what really creates "oneness"....and that is "love". Don't you think so? I mean we can't be one with someone or something we care nothing about, now can we? Perhaps this also covers whether we know, understand and/or believe in the trinity concept...and that is "love". Emy says she doesn't believe in the trinity concept that Jesus "couldn't sin" while living on the earth because he was God.....that it had to be because he had the Holy Spirit without measure! But John 17 comes after John 1, Emy and John 1 specifically states that the Word WAS GOD! And the Word came down and took flesh upon him and dwelt amongst mankind. That is saying that the Son of God is the Word and that he was God and that he took on human flesh and dwelt amongst mankind. So there is NO way he could have lost his "God" part at all and it isn't even a part, he was 100 per cent God as being the Word, the only begotten of the Father. This is what enabled him to be able to use the Holy Spirit without measure. And I feel certain that yes, even though he was tempted in all ways that we are tempted that he didn't succumb to temptation because number one he was God and also he had the full measure of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit strengthened his human flesh against sin and him being God would not allow him to take of the temptation and still reside within the same body as the Word did...he would have had to die in the flesh and the Word would have gone back to God as the only begotten of the FAther.
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Post by déjà vu on Aug 12, 2014 21:31:59 GMT -5
I understand the F&W in general believe that Christ was able to sin, but I don't think the bible supports that view.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 12, 2014 21:33:48 GMT -5
Person A: Jesus is the son of God, but not God the Son. Person B: Jesus is the son of God, and also God the Son.
The question - what is the difference between A and B's belief? Do these two people think about Jesus in different ways? Different in what way?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 23:52:40 GMT -5
I understand the F&W in general believe that Christ was able to sin, but I don't think the bible supports that view. this is what we believe For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
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Post by Mary on Aug 13, 2014 1:46:06 GMT -5
So did he have the potential to sin, virgo?
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Post by What Hat on Aug 13, 2014 9:30:41 GMT -5
Person A: Jesus is the son of God, but not God the Son. Person B: Jesus is the son of God, and also God the Son. The question - what is the difference between A and B's belief? Do these two people think about Jesus in different ways? Different in what way? For me the first one would mean that Jesus and the rest of humanity are sons and daughters of God and in Jesus case he reached a level we all can attain. The second one would mean that he is God and so what he is would be unattainable by a mere human. That is why Christians need to depend on forgiveness and mercy because there is no hope for them otherwise. That's how I see it anyway. That's an interesting and thoughtful distinction. Although person A would still need to depend on forgiveness and mercy from God, because she would never attain the perfection of Christ. Jesus' life and precepts are a possibility, and a tangible possibility, but one that can be attained by the 'son of God', a sinless man, only. The problem with this view is that one could think that a place in heaven has to be earned. And thus they might never come to know the joys of artisan beers or boutique wines, imbibed in moderation of course. Person B is doomed to fail through works. It might seem there is no point in even trying. Instead focus on forgiveness and mercy, and dare I say it, carry on as you always have. Certainly that is the path many Christians appear to take. But many Christians are like the one healed man who had a thankful spirit and a transformation is evident in the character of their life's walk. Do you think there is an experiential difference in the two views of Jesus? Are the prayers and dialogue with Christ of person 'A' different from 'B'?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 13, 2014 9:30:59 GMT -5
Okay, Snow...let's step back into the thing you often say is very important and I agree...and this is what really creates "oneness"....and that is "love". Don't you think so? I mean we can't be one with someone or something we care nothing about, now can we? Perhaps this also covers whether we know, understand and/or believe in the trinity concept...and that is "love". Emy says she doesn't believe in the trinity concept that Jesus "couldn't sin" while living on the earth because he was God.....that it had to be because he had the Holy Spirit without measure! But John 17 comes after John 1, Emy and John 1 specifically states that the Word WAS GOD! And the Word came down and took flesh upon him and dwelt amongst mankind. That is saying that the Son of God is the Word and that he was God and that he took on human flesh and dwelt amongst mankind. So there is NO way he could have lost his "God" part at all and it isn't even a part, he was 100 per cent God as being the Word, the only begotten of the Father. This is what enabled him to be able to use the Holy Spirit without measure. And I feel certain that yes, even though he was tempted in all ways that we are tempted that he didn't succumb to temptation because number one he was God and also he had the full measure of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit strengthened his human flesh against sin and him being God would not allow him to take of the temptation and still reside within the same body as the Word did...he would have had to die in the flesh and the Word would have gone back to God as the only begotten of the FAther. So, do you feel we all have this love tucked away in us? Even those who don't know it or show it? If that connection is love, which I'm not arguing, then we must all have it. I don't believe it would be possible to be separate from what we came from could it? Everyone is born with the capacity for love of some kind or other. Babies have a dependent love of their parents or guardians or whoever they're the most familiar with. And as babies grow up, so should the capacity for love grow, BUT environment has a whole lot of effect upon whether capacity for love grows or is stifled. That's why we see criminals that were abused as children also abuse as adults and that's because the capacity for love was stifled with the abuse they themselves suffered. Love is what makes for a balanced person in which trials, temptations, wars and sufferings all are within a scope in which that person can handle it, because love was something they've known since birth. Now it is pretty well agreed upon that people will seek God when life is hard on them and they no longer feel worthy, or able for life, then they "call on God". This is when preachers of most denominations will swope down upon such folks and pound their intellect until they submit to whatever denomination they know about...this is where love is often lost even in the spiritual sense. Just like the crusades tried to stomp out other Christians not of the Catholic or whatever faith was first, so do the denominations war against one another to claim another soul in trouble. Sometimes all of the denominations will lose such sufferers simply because they are too pushy or too critical of others...that is not showing the "love" that such a sufferer is wanting/needing! There are many things that stifle that capacity to love....not that love isn't there, it just isn't a capacity to be there.
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