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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 16, 2014 9:58:48 GMT -5
That would be a great shock I'm sure. Actually, when I first joined TMB I was still naive enough to think they were celibate, though I must admit I didn't give it much thought. It was a shock for me to hear it and it really shouldn't have been. It's funny how we can be so street wise and still have little corners of naivety. I guess I blame it more on the fact that I was never an adult in the 2x2's, and so I never thought to question it, mostly because I was a child. I did know about CSA among the elders which I remember at the time shocked me when I found out about it at 14 years of age, but it never occurred to me then that the workers did it too. So I can only imagine how betrayed, for lack of a better word, you must have felt after putting so many years into the group only to find out they weren't who they said they were. Snow, I believe the vast majority of workers are celibate. Gene, I had believed that most all of them were celibate also. We had one young brother worker in our field for several years that was in truth quite the Don Quixote! I thought, at that time, he was the exception to the rule! And he probably was in accordance with his peer group of brother workers in our state at the time, the others being quite elderly....one being probably very much against sex all the way around... a true eunuch whether of choice, I'm not sure on that! But since learning about some of the brother workers having their cake and eating it also, esp., those brother workers I had known before they ever became workers, being much in the go with sex here and there....likely in every port.....I have to wonder that perhaps sex as being something found very common within the brother and likely with a lesser per cent, the sister workers. I thought the workers who left the work due to their nerves, likely were the ones who felt celibacy wasn't their cup of tea, were the ones who quit the work and married and became good fellowshippers in their own homes. Like I said once before...it would seem to me for the brother workers to stay celebate would be easier IF they had never tasted the experience before they ever offered and went into the work. However, knowing some of the young females in the fellowship and how they cover up the young men in the fellowship and some of the brother workers as well....the celibacy issue is just something that isn't going to happen! But some brothers and sister workers can still find a way to stay in the work, have their cake and eat it too, and leave their sexual partners behind when they are forced to either by moving out of field or state! I've also found that often the married women in the fellowship are available to some of the brother workers and that it isn't anything to wonder whether such women's offspring belong to their husbands or to the worker(s) they've been with! This too was a heavy shock....this is the thing to me that speaks of not having much self-respect! But then I look at it in comparison to what goes on in the rest of the world and it is no different! I found fellowshippers and workers to be no different then the people all around me as far as their daily lives and what they allow or don't allow!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 16, 2014 10:12:31 GMT -5
Sharon wrote: I think that Jesus had settled any struggle he had with human desires before the Garden of Gethsemane. I'm thinking of what he told the twelve when he asked them who do people say I am? When Peter answered correctly, he urged them to not tell others and then he told them what he would be facing at Jerusalem. (Matt. 16; Mark 8; Luke 9) I firmly believe he was not lamenting human loss but was fearing his human spirit would fail to yield to the Holy Spirit. Jesus surely wasn't lamenting his return to heaven and leaving his human joy behind when he said this: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.(John 17:5) John 17 is not the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, I don't believe, Emy! The Garden of Gethsemane prayer happened the very same night that the Last Supper happened, as well as the betrayal of Judas as well as the incarceration of Jesus. Emy, I don't think Jesus' human self would have been decapped at all on this issue...if you'll look back at the time when the devil tempted Jesus the first recording we read that Satan left Jesus "for a time"......so Jesus would have been tempted more often then just the one time. I think if you'll put Jesus' shoes or sandals on and him knowing that the time for his betrayal by one of his own, though Jesus knew all along that Judas was the son of perdition.....still Jesus was sad about that......Jesus also was said that in his prayers that night in that "he feared"...What would he fear? I think what he feared was that his human frame would keep him from being able to do the Father's Will in this issue......so fervent and strenuous prayer he gave for that reason. "IF this cup could pass from me, nevertheless Thy Will be done." Otherwords I read this as Jesus' human frame being only 33 yrs. old and some, was not really wanting to have to drink that cup of anguish that he knew awaited him...but he also knew that this was the Father's will in that salvation would be bought for mankind!! Jesus prayed that "....nevertheless Thy Will be done." Jesus' will was not to intercede even though he had the thought "If this cup could pass from me...." I find that very human and very likely regardless of what Jesus foreknew etc. I know that Jesus' body had already been transfigured, the Father had already judged him and found him "well pleased with His only begotten Son", so Jesus could have asked that the Father just let him come on into heaven and not have to go through all that pain and suffering that was going to be his in the human frame. His human frame was still there, Emy! He DID suffer overmuch in the human frame due to all of the indecent treatment that was used on him....Pilate even "scourged" him...why? Pilate found NO wrong in him...why would PIlate want to scourge someone who he found no wrong in him? Jesus apparently was so unable to carry his own cross due to all the scourging etc that they had to find someone to carry it for him. I don't believe that few men could bear the weight of their own cross on a back that had been laid open with scourging strips of about 40 licks save one! Jesus was suffering in his human frame...Jesus was being tempted in his human frame! He even suffered in his human frame that which a lost soul will suffer and that was when he cried to the Father "...why hast Thou forsaken me?" Yes, he knew temptation and suffering after John 17 for he was still in a human frame!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 14:22:56 GMT -5
Actually, as He hung on the cross, becoming cursed (in their stead) for those who believe, did He not refer to "God" who had forsaken Him, the man rather than the Father? For me, that is a pertinent point, as until then He always addressed the (His) "Father," yet, on that occasion it was the Man Jesus hanging alone on that cross no longer God and man, and worthy of note to me, making it a certainty that He knew separation from God if only for that short period. Surely that would have been traumatic for Him, and something for Him to fear, knowing even God had to forsake Him, the man, as He hung there.
I find only one other later instance where it is recorded Yahu'shuah ha Meshiach referred to "God" rather than "Father', finding a germane lesson in that time as well.
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Post by emy on Aug 17, 2014 1:08:03 GMT -5
Sharon wrote: I think that Jesus had settled any struggle he had with human desires before the Garden of Gethsemane. I'm thinking of what he told the twelve when he asked them who do people say I am? When Peter answered correctly, he urged them to not tell others and then he told them what he would be facing at Jerusalem. (Matt. 16; Mark 8; Luke 9) I firmly believe he was not lamenting human loss but was fearing his human spirit would fail to yield to the Holy Spirit. Jesus surely wasn't lamenting his return to heaven and leaving his human joy behind when he said this: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.(John 17:5) John 17 is not the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, I don't believe, Emy! The Garden of Gethsemane prayer happened the very same night that the Last Supper happened, as well as the betrayal of Judas as well as the incarceration of Jesus. Emy, I don't think Jesus' human self would have been decapped (??) at all on this issue...if you'll look back at the time when the devil tempted Jesus the first recording we read that Satan left Jesus "for a time"......so Jesus would have been tempted more often then just the one time. I think if you'll put Jesus' shoes or sandals on and him knowing that the time for his betrayal by one of his own, though Jesus knew all along that Judas was the son of perdition.....still Jesus was sad about that......Jesus also was said that in his prayers that night in that "he feared"...What would he fear? I think what he feared was that his human frame would keep him from being able to do the Father's Will in this issue......so fervent and strenuous prayer he gave for that reason. "IF this cup could pass from me, nevertheless Thy Will be done." Otherwords I read this as Jesus' human frame being only 33 yrs. old and some, was not really wanting to have to drink that cup of anguish that he knew awaited him...but he also knew that this was the Father's will in that salvation would be bought for mankind!! Jesus prayed that "....nevertheless Thy Will be done." Jesus' will was not to intercede even though he had the thought "If this cup could pass from me...." I find that very human and very likely regardless of what Jesus foreknew etc. I know that Jesus' body had already been transfigured, the Father had already judged him and found him "well pleased with His only begotten Son", so Jesus could have asked that the Father just let him come on into heaven and not have to go through all that pain and suffering that was going to be his in the human frame. His human frame was still there, Emy! He DID suffer overmuch in the human frame due to all of the indecent treatment that was used on him....Pilate even "scourged" him...why? Pilate found NO wrong in him...why would PIlate want to scourge someone who he found no wrong in him? Jesus apparently was so unable to carry his own cross due to all the scourging etc that they had to find someone to carry it for him. I don't believe that few men could bear the weight of their own cross on a back that had been laid open with scourging strips of about 40 licks save one! Jesus was suffering in his human frame...Jesus was being tempted in his human frame! He even suffered in his human frame that which a lost soul will suffer and that was when he cried to the Father "...why hast Thou forsaken me?" Yes, he knew temptation and suffering after John 17 for he was still in a human frame! I'm sorry I didn't make it clear that Jesus' prayer in the garden was separate from the one in John 17. I did know they are different. What I underlined in your post is pretty much what I said, too. He prayed to submit his human spirit to God's will. But I don't really think he lamented leaving earth to return to heaven. Maybe fearing that he would cave under the suffering he knew was coming and call for God to spare him and release him from the cross.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 17, 2014 13:27:29 GMT -5
I think the verse in Hebs. about Jesus' Garden of Gethsemane prayers said some thing about that in it was heard that "he feared"! And I would think being made a curse for all of mankind would surely go against any human who was near or nearly perfect, besides knowing full well all the disprespectful things that was done to him and I feel he thought in that those shameful things done to him those who did them were doing them to God.....and thus he knew that his human will was going to get him into cross purposes having to withstand all that scorn, spitting beating, scourging and being thrown upon a cross his two cross' peers driving it into his teeth that IF he is the Son of God, why isn't he coming down off his cross and furthermore why isn't he saving them! All he could do then was pray, Father forgive thme, they know no what they do.
I think about that and I have to wonder when the deeds books are opened just exactly what will happen to those who would dare crucify God's Son!
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 13:39:13 GMT -5
I think the verse in Hebs. about Jesus' Garden of Gethsemane prayers said some thing about that in it was heard that "he feared"! And I would think being made a curse for all of mankind would surely go against any human who was near or nearly perfect, besides knowing full well all the disprespectful things that was done to him and I feel he thought in that those shameful things done to him those who did them were doing them to God.....and thus he knew that his human will was going to get him into cross purposes having to withstand all that scorn, spitting beating, scourging and being thrown upon a cross his two cross' peers driving it into his teeth that IF he is the Son of God, why isn't he coming down off his cross and furthermore why isn't he saving them! All he could do then was pray, Father forgive thme, they know no what they do. I think about that and I have to wonder when the deeds books are opened just exactly what will happen to those who would dare crucify God's Son! What would the situation be for you today if no one had dared crucify Jesus and he had gone on to die of old age? Reminds me vaguely of the guy between meetings at convention one year who declared that it was ok that professing women no longer had to wear black stockings, but that it was very wrong to have been the first woman to break from the tradition - whoever that was!
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 17, 2014 13:48:35 GMT -5
I think about that and I have to wonder when the deeds books are opened just exactly what will happen to those who would dare crucify God's Son![/quote]
I think God heard Jesus prayer, and that's what will happen- forgiveness, just like you and me are forgiven. I know, it's not fair, but grace is not about what's fair. Was it mark Twain said something like if it went by what's fair, dogs would enter heaven and we'd all be "out". Cats, well that's maybe different lol. Grace only goes so far.... NOT . Alvin
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 17, 2014 13:50:36 GMT -5
I think the verse in Hebs. about Jesus' Garden of Gethsemane prayers said some thing about that in it was heard that "he feared"! And I would think being made a curse for all of mankind would surely go against any human who was near or nearly perfect, besides knowing full well all the disprespectful things that was done to him and I feel he thought in that those shameful things done to him those who did them were doing them to God.....and thus he knew that his human will was going to get him into cross purposes having to withstand all that scorn, spitting beating, scourging and being thrown upon a cross his two cross' peers driving it into his teeth that IF he is the Son of God, why isn't he coming down off his cross and furthermore why isn't he saving them! All he could do then was pray, Father forgive thme, they know no what they do. I think about that and I have to wonder when the deeds books are opened just exactly what will happen to those who would dare crucify God's Son! What would the situation be for you today if no one had dared crucify Jesus and he had gone on to die of old age? Reminds me vaguely of the guy between meetings at convention one year who declared that it was ok that professing women no longer had to wear black stockings, but that it was very wrong to have been the first woman to break from the tradition - whoever that was! If Jesus had lived a human life unto natural death?? I think I would have been much like many of the earth's native/natural people....they knew there was a "great spirit" over them and they knew that he had to be way up above the sky they could see and beyond the stars, etc, but yet they knew of a single powered being that watched over them, helped them etc......so I would have been conscious of a "God" in the upper sky and how infinite wisdom, knowledge and understanding he had to have had in order to form the things upon and in the earth and even the dome of the heavens naked to man's eyes.....I think most people eventually live and get the impression they want to call on a God and they do such.....there wasn't many generations of the beginning of the bible that didn't "call" on God.....that's just a natural thing for people to want to believe! As to the ending of the wearing of black stockings, I'd been told a brother worker had reported in a major workers mtg. about seeing one of the sisters come into a Sun., morn. mtg. wearing "flesh colored hose"! And I'd heard that the brother workers sitting there gasped and thought they needed to go do some kind of strenuous work on that sister. But the brother worker let them stew a bit and then he told them the real story. It turned out he had been in a mtg. where one of the black sister workers came into the mtg. with some of the white or Caucasian sisters. And true to form, all of those sister workers were wearing the requisite black hosiery! Even the black lady...but for her, black was "flesh colored". The point this brother made was "If it was okay for the black lady to wear those "flesh colored" hosiery then he didn't see why the workers kept saying the black hose had to be worn by the Caucasian sisters, etc. Also he mentioned that it was getting hard to get them...some were buying a cotton hose that was ugly as sin and then dying them black, then this would fade on their feet and shoes.....so they were given the okay to start wearing natural colored hosiery......I think some brothers insisted that the hose have a seam up the back so it could be made certain that the female had hose on.......but then that was later taken away because "seams in hosiery" were considered "sexy"....lah!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 17, 2014 13:54:53 GMT -5
I think about that and I have to wonder when the deeds books are opened just exactly what will happen to those who would dare crucify God's Son! I think God heard Jesus prayer, and that's what will happen- forgiveness, just like you and me are forgiven. I know, it's not fair, but grace is not about what's fair. Was it mark Twain said something like if it went by what's fair, dogs would enter heaven and we'd all be "out". Cats, well that's maybe different lol. Grace only goes so far.... NOT . Alvin[/quote] We had a similar discussion of this issue some years ago...someone mentioned that they thought that those people that Jesus had asked God to forgive them had to have had at least one of two things in order to have that grace given, just like anyone else. The first, of course, was repentance....which it is hard to tell if there was any of that ever had amongst the chief priests and his minions. Also the second condition would have been they would have been willing for that forgiveness...otherwords either admitting they needed the forgiveness or admitting they wanted the forgiveness regardless if the mistake was made or not.....kind of like a stitch in time saves nine///perhaps.....I wish I could remember more of the discussion for it went on and on over a period of after mtg. Suns. for a time and we all learned more about the whol thing....
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 14:10:12 GMT -5
What would the situation be for you today if no one had dared crucify Jesus and he had gone on to die of old age? Reminds me vaguely of the guy between meetings at convention one year who declared that it was ok that professing women no longer had to wear black stockings, but that it was very wrong to have been the first woman to break from the tradition - whoever that was! If Jesus had lived a human life unto natural death?? I think I would have been much like many of the earth's native/natural people.... I guess my question is, if a sacrifice was required of God's Son, why would the agents of his death/sacrifice be punished?
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2014 14:39:31 GMT -5
As to the ending of the wearing of black stockings, I'd been told a brother worker had reported in a major workers mtg. about seeing one of the sisters come into a Sun., morn. mtg. wearing "flesh colored hose"! And I'd heard that the brother workers sitting there gasped and thought they needed to go do some kind of strenuous work on that sister. But the brother worker let them stew a bit and then he told them the real story. It turned out he had been in a mtg. where one of the black sister workers came into the mtg. with some of the white or Caucasian sisters. And true to form, all of those sister workers were wearing the requisite black hosiery! Even the black lady...but for her, black was "flesh colored". The point this brother made was "If it was okay for the black lady to wear those "flesh colored" hosiery then he didn't see why the workers kept saying the black hose had to be worn by the Caucasian sisters, etc. Also he mentioned that it was getting hard to get them...some were buying a cotton hose that was ugly as sin and then dying them black, then this would fade on their feet and shoes.....so they were given the okay to start wearing natural colored hosiery......I think some brothers insisted that the hose have a seam up the back so it could be made certain that the female had hose on.......but then that was later taken away because "seams in hosiery" were considered "sexy"....lah! Its sad that workers ever got into the 'fashion police' business. Its so unlike the Jesus of the bible.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 21:41:10 GMT -5
If Jesus had lived a human life unto natural death?? I think I would have been much like many of the earth's native/natural people.... I guess my question is, if a sacrifice was required of God's Son, why would the agents of his death/sacrifice be punished? Mat_26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Mar_14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. Luk_22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
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Post by emy on Aug 17, 2014 21:47:15 GMT -5
Cats, well that's maybe different lol. Grace only goes so far.... NOT
Tsk, tsk, Alvin! Can't let you get by with such a prejudiced statement!
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Post by matisse on Aug 17, 2014 22:07:24 GMT -5
I guess my question is, if a sacrifice was required of God's Son, why would the agents of his death/sacrifice be punished? Mat_26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Mar_14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. Luk_22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! I know there is scripture to quote, Wally, I still am left with questions. Were the betrayers pre-destined to help fulfill the prophesies? Is their apparent damnation another dimension of a big, pre-ordained sacrifice?
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Post by Mary on Aug 17, 2014 22:11:31 GMT -5
To me, God knew they would do it, he didn't make them do it, if that is what you are meaning by predestined.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 10:07:10 GMT -5
Mat_26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Mar_14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. Luk_22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! I know there is scripture to quote, Wally, I still am left with questions. Were the betrayers pre-destined to help fulfill the prophesies? Is their apparent damnation another dimension of a big, pre-ordained sacrifice? yes a certain type of person was pre-destined to betray Jesus...i believe its in psalms...
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Post by matisse on Aug 18, 2014 10:20:39 GMT -5
yes a certain type of person was pre-destined to betray Jesus...i believe its in psalms... So the existence of a betrayer was by "design" and the betrayer was pre-destined to be condemmed for it. That just doesn't strike me as being either fair or just.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 10:26:13 GMT -5
yes a certain type of person was pre-destined to betray Jesus...i believe its in psalms... So the existence of a betrayer was by "design" and the betrayer was pre-destined to be condemmed for it. That just doesn't strike me as being either fair or just. its to my understanding that if Judas(whomever) had repented of what he did he could have been saved but we've no real record of him actually repenting to God instead he killed himself...although he did return the money...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2014 10:37:05 GMT -5
If Jesus had lived a human life unto natural death?? I think I would have been much like many of the earth's native/natural people.... I guess my question is, if a sacrifice was required of God's Son, why would the agents of his death/sacrifice be punished? Luke 22:22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed. But woe to that man who betrays him!" IF this is the sentence of the one who betrayed him, why wouldn't those who judged him and hung him not also be sentenced with "woe"?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2014 10:43:05 GMT -5
So the existence of a betrayer was by "design" and the betrayer was pre-destined to be condemmed for it. That just doesn't strike me as being either fair or just. its to my understanding that if Judas(whomever) had repented of what he did he could have been saved but we've no real record of him actually repenting to God instead he killed himself...although he did return the money... After Judas had been with Jesus and the other Apostles for over 3 years, and having heard the other Apostles speak for a certainty that Jesus WAS the Son of God and then Judas when he saw that Jesus was condemned, Judas went back to the chief priests and his minions and threw down the 30 pieces of silver and told them that he had been wrong in delivering the innocent unto them. They didn't accept his plea and told him to go and take care of it himself. He could have gone to Jesus at that time and begged forgiveness, but NO he chose the quickest way out of his inward turmoil by hanging himself. It just showed who Judas' real god was......sadly Jesus was troubled about this before he sat down for that last Supper and had to tell Judas to go and do what he had to do quickly. Jesus knew he had chosen the son of perdition to be amongst the 12 whom he chose to be his Apostles, his closest friends and helpmetes in the kingdom of heaven! Even in Thesslonian writing it speaks that the son of perdition had to be revealed...sometimes the way that has to be brought out may seem quite sinister to those who cannot understand....but it has to be!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2014 10:58:40 GMT -5
yes a certain type of person was pre-destined to betray Jesus...i believe its in psalms... So the existence of a betrayer was by "design" and the betrayer was pre-destined to be condemmed for it. That just doesn't strike me as being either fair or just. You perhaps have read that many times in the OT that the "evil" parties were used by God to bring about a certain thing and usually that certain thing was that the name of God might be magnified and know to all that live in the land....this is what God told Pharoah in Moses' day, isn't it? There is a Psalm that the Psalmist speaks about how the wicked seem to flourish and have everything they could wish for etc and how perplexing that was to the Psalmist for this Psalmist sought to do God's will everyday...and this Psalmist was complaining that it nearly brought him clear to his knees...but then he went couldn't understand the why of this "Until I went into the sanctuary of God"....... Psalm 73 2But as for me, my feet had almost slipped;
I had nearly lost my foothold.
3For I envied the arrogant
when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. 4They have no struggles; their bodies are healthy and strong.a 12This is what the wicked are like—
always free of care, they go on amassing wealth............ 16When I tried to understand all this,
it troubled me deeply17till I entered the sanctuary of God;
then I understood their final destiny.18Surely you place them on slippery ground;
you cast them down to ruin.
19How suddenly are they destroyed,
completely swept away by terrors!
20They are like a dream when one awakes;
God told Pharoah..... Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised you up, for to show in you my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2014 11:09:43 GMT -5
God saw the future, and revealed it in the Old Testament about the event, it was that person own choice, choosing and outcome.... FREEWILL. You are all missing the point though. If all those involved in his crucifixion hadn't done it, none of you would be able to say you are saved today. So why should they have to pay for your salvation also? What we're not considering here is that the betrayer was who he was before Jesus ever had anything to do with him......he was the "son of perdition"....this was just who he is...much like some of the sons and daughters of perdition in our society that eventually end up causing someone who is trying to live a good life innocent of trampling other people under their feet, some reall problems if not killing them! I think the sister worker who was killed in Wyhoming some years ago as perhaps a drastic example of being caught in the pathway of some son or sons and daughters of perdition! Those people that were into robbing that house and ended up killing the lady for whatever reason actually had turned themselves into sons and daughters of perdition by having such a thought as to offend another human being in a criminal manner. This is th ekind of people who God uses to bring about his Will sometimes though they have no idea that is happening.....but it isn't God who makes them sons and daughters of perdition nor is it He who makes anyone that seeks to become offenders of neighbors etc even unto maiming or death. Jesus knew who Judas was when he picked him to be an Apostle! Jesus actually had some very kind feelings for Judas for it speaks how Jesus was troubled when it was time to turn Judas loose to do whatever he'd given himself to do. STILL....Judas could have come back to Jesus and plead for Jesus' forgiveness and I feel Jesus would have given it to him...again this didn't happen because of who Judas was to start with.....Judas didn't accept within himself that Jesus was who Jesus really was though it does says that Judas felt very bad that he had betrayed someone and that this innocent one was deemed guilty enough for crucifiction.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2014 11:27:14 GMT -5
If Jesus had lived a human life unto natural death?? I think I would have been much like many of the earth's native/natural people.... I guess my question is, if a sacrifice was required of God's Son, why would the agents of his death/sacrifice be punished? I don't think that those who were guilty of what was done to Jesus was the ONLY bad things they'd done in their lives. This would have been the reason they had been used by God to bring about those horrible things that had to be done. Otherwords, without a willing repentance from any of those people, they would not be forgiven for any of their previous sins or wayward lives that happened before the advent of Jesus' death and after he was gone. This I tried to explain when I showed the Psalm where the Psalm was almost undone UNTIL "I went into the sanctuary of God" then I saw their end...... Otherwords the "recorded" negative feats of those people during the time of the bible ARE NOT the ONLY things they would be punished for or would be "used" to bring about that which God saw had to come about......their judgment will certainly come from the book of deeds!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2014 20:23:03 GMT -5
The Lamb of God/Jesus had to die was foreordained before the world was created. Jesus had to pay the priced for our sins alone, because he was the Sacrificial Lamb of God.
I Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. Those around him at Crucifixion had to make their own choices... whether to believe in Jesus as the Lamb of God, who died for their sins or NOT.
Jesus KNEW Judas was going to betray Him, and he didn't reveal it to others. He had hoped Judas would repent like Peter did.... Peter repented and became one of the leading apostles.
Sigh, I guess I'm just never going to understand this. I still don't understand why Jesus, if he was God, had to die in the first place. Being God an all, why didn't he just forgive everyone and be done with it. Why all the drama? Also, if Judas returned the money and killed himself because he felt so bad about it, wouldn't you say he repented? No, I wouldn't say he "repented"! He did not go to the one who he had offended!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 18, 2014 20:30:42 GMT -5
What we're not considering here is that the betrayer was who he was before Jesus ever had anything to do with him......he was the "son of perdition"....this was just who he is...much like some of the sons and daughters of perdition in our society that eventually end up causing someone who is trying to live a good life innocent of trampling other people under their feet, some reall problems if not killing them! I think the sister worker who was killed in Wyhoming some years ago as perhaps a drastic example of being caught in the pathway of some son or sons and daughters of perdition! Those people that were into robbing that house and ended up killing the lady for whatever reason actually had turned themselves into sons and daughters of perdition by having such a thought as to offend another human being in a criminal manner. This is th ekind of people who God uses to bring about his Will sometimes though they have no idea that is happening.....but it isn't God who makes them sons and daughters of perdition nor is it He who makes anyone that seeks to become offenders of neighbors etc even unto maiming or death. Jesus knew who Judas was when he picked him to be an Apostle! Jesus actually had some very kind feelings for Judas for it speaks how Jesus was troubled when it was time to turn Judas loose to do whatever he'd given himself to do. STILL....Judas could have come back to Jesus and plead for Jesus' forgiveness and I feel Jesus would have given it to him...again this didn't happen because of who Judas was to start with.....Judas didn't accept within himself that Jesus was who Jesus really was though it does says that Judas felt very bad that he had betrayed someone and that this innocent one was deemed guilty enough for crucifiction. I'm guessing that I don't understand what a 'person of perdition' would be. I thought we were all human, created by God etc. You make Judas and the others sound like they are the spawn of the devil or something. Is that what you mean? Throughout history or time, however it goes, there has always been the good and the bad pitted against one another. This seems to be the way of life, eh? That is not saying the bad or the spawn of the devil...though some have been the spawn of the devil..... The "son of perdition" Question: Who Are the Sons of Perdition? In the scriptures1 we read about the sons of perdition, but who are the sons of perdition and what does it mean to be a son of perdition? Answer: The sons of perdition are those (both men and women) who have received a complete testimony of Jesus Christ (revealed to them by the Father through the Holy Ghost) and then willfully rebel against God. Sons of perdition fully know who Jesus Christ is and knowingly choose to turn away from God and rebel against Him. lds.about.com/od/faq/f/Who-Are-The-Sons-Of-Perdition.htmThis is a LDS website, it seems but the definition seems to be what I've heard about the son of perdition all along. In Thessalonians it speaks about when the end time comes just before that there is to be the "falling away so that the son of perdition will be made known" etc.....otherwords in light of this definition, when the "falling away" comes there will be those who have had full Christian conversion and privileges, etc but will have turned away from that either back into their former walk of life or something worse!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 19, 2014 9:24:09 GMT -5
No, I wouldn't say he "repented"! He did not go to the one who he had offended! Was that possible? He was in the hands of the Romans. I suppose he could have gone to the cross but I wasn't aware that a person actually had to physically go to Jesus to repent or ask for forgiveness. Couldn't it have been done remotely? When Judas went to the chief priest and his minions after Judas saw that they had condemned an innocent man, he returned the 30 pieces of silver and asked they not push the sentence on to an innocent man. The chief priests told him that it was his problem and that HE should "see to it". Judas didn't finish what he'd started in his repenting...there'd been no way he could have stopped the crucifixion as it was scripture being fulfilled....however IF Judas would have done "see to it" he would have sought an audience with Jesus while he was in Pilate's hall fo judgment alone....Jesus would have forgiven him and would have given him an understanding that this was fulfilling scripture that Jesus was to die for the sins of his people, etc, but that Judas would be forgiven his part in it. Then we have to look to what Judas really did....he went home and committed suicide where there would be NO chance of remission of sins. Again, if Judas had stayed alive until after Jesus' resurrection, he could have repented along with other new Christian converts and been forgiven his sins of betraying the innocent man, Jesus. Judas removed 2 chances for forgiveness of his greed, self-importance or whatever reason he had initially sought with being buddies to the chief priests, simply by stopping his own life! That does NOT speak of repentance, usually! Often that speaks of self, in some form or another..... Remember all sins are forgiveable except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit! Judas would have had that taught to him while he was with Jesus and the other 11 Apostles!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 19, 2014 9:33:05 GMT -5
Throughout history or time, however it goes, there has always been the good and the bad pitted against one another. This seems to be the way of life, eh? That is not saying the bad or the spawn of the devil...though some have been the spawn of the devil..... The "son of perdition" Question: Who Are the Sons of Perdition? In the scriptures1 we read about the sons of perdition, but who are the sons of perdition and what does it mean to be a son of perdition? Answer: The sons of perdition are those (both men and women) who have received a complete testimony of Jesus Christ (revealed to them by the Father through the Holy Ghost) and then willfully rebel against God. Sons of perdition fully know who Jesus Christ is and knowingly choose to turn away from God and rebel against Him. lds.about.com/od/faq/f/Who-Are-The-Sons-Of-Perdition.htmThis is a LDS website, it seems but the definition seems to be what I've heard about the son of perdition all along. In Thessalonians it speaks about when the end time comes just before that there is to be the "falling away so that the son of perdition will be made known" etc.....otherwords in light of this definition, when the "falling away" comes there will be those who have had full Christian conversion and privileges, etc but will have turned away from that either back into their former walk of life or something worse! So in that definition I would be a daughter of perdition because I was once a professing member of the only true church and I turned my back on it and not only that I became an agnostic, one who believes without a shadow of a doubt that the Christian God does not exist. Does that mean that God could use me to do something immoral? And, what would I base morality on given the stuff that God has done? In many ways everyone of us here on TMB are more moral than the God of the OT. So what does that really mean? Snow, there are conditions about why and how and what in people's lives that it means that they've receive a complete testimony of Jesus Christ...that it's been revealed to them by the Father, etc. However I have to wonder IF some who were professing at one time really had that kind of relationship with Jesus Christ...it's kind of hard to turn away from that kind of relationship...most times that relationship holds on to us more then we hold on to it, esp. when temptations and trials abound. Again you've spoken against God as being less moral then those of us on TMB! That shows to me you really do not understand God! God said He loved Jacob, but he hated Esau. And was He wrong to say that more the less feel it? Why would God say that? He gave Esau the natural blessings that He gave any other person on earth...but He loved Jacob as Jacob was the second-born son.....this speaking of the fact that Esau represented the flesh and that Jacob represented the spirit. Allegories abound in the bible as well as we're into archaic interpretations much of the time. Not taking judgment against something that seems unfair requires "faith" and I mean a very strong "faith"......Esau sold his birthwright, and he became bitter because of "what he had done with his natural birthright." Isn't that what happens with most of us that let our flesh lead us esp. in times of great human need? Instead of holding on with faith that God's time will change things for our own good?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 19, 2014 14:06:50 GMT -5
Snow, there are conditions about why and how and what in people's lives that it means that they've receive a complete testimony of Jesus Christ...that it's been revealed to them by the Father, etc. However I have to wonder IF some who were professing at one time really had that kind of relationship with Jesus Christ...it's kind of hard to turn away from that kind of relationship...most times that relationship holds on to us more then we hold on to it, esp. when temptations and trials abound. Again you've spoken against God as being less moral then those of us on TMB! That shows to me you really do not understand God! God said He loved Jacob, but he hated Esau. And was He wrong to say that more the less feel it? Why would God say that? He gave Esau the natural blessings that He gave any other person on earth...but He loved Jacob as Jacob was the second-born son.....this speaking of the fact that Esau represented the flesh and that Jacob represented the spirit. Allegories abound in the bible as well as we're into archaic interpretations much of the time. Not taking judgment against something that seems unfair requires "faith" and I mean a very strong "faith"......Esau sold his birthwright, and he became bitter because of "what he had done with his natural birthright." Isn't that what happens with most of us that let our flesh lead us esp. in times of great human need? Instead of holding on with faith that God's time will change things for our own good? From what I read about Esau, it wasn't anything he did, it was the devious ploy of Rachel(?) the mother that got his inheritance stolen from him? Also, I learned a long time ago, strong faith is not worth the value of Truth. I don't see strong faith as being a good thing. To deny factual evidence because one needs to 'just believe', seems to go against everything in me. Snow, you're remembering the after facts of Esau and Jacob....Esau was to get his father's first and best blessing as the firstborn but Rachel knew that Esau had already sold that birthright to Jacob! So that is why Rachel intervened. this is where the birthright was sold for a bowl of pottage. Gen. 25Esau Sells his Birthright …33And Jacob said, "First swear to me"; so he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew; and he ate and drank, and rose and went on his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.
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