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Post by faune on Aug 4, 2014 14:30:56 GMT -5
A recent thread about funerals brought up an interesting question in my mind regarding the following topic. I wasn't aware until today exactly how different the O.T. and the N.T. are in regards to a future afterlife, like Heaven or Hell, until today. There's a real difference between presented views on the afterlife, which took me by total surprise.
Below are two apologists sites that try to explain the reason for this major conflict, which doesn't seem to address it adequately for me ~ especially the second one! Such a discrepancy between the Old Testament and New Testament would undoubtedly cause anybody to naturally question the inerrancy of scripture under such circumstances, since it just doesn't add up, IMHO? Any thoughts you care to share as to the reason for this conflicting picture in eschatology would be appreciated?
professing.proboards.com/thread/22282/funerals
www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/01/where-did-old-testament-saints-think-they-went-when-they-died/
Where Did Old Testament Saints Think They Went When They Died?
www.tektonics.org/af/doctoolate.php Why are Heaven and Hell Not Mentioned in the Old Testament?
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Post by faune on Aug 4, 2014 14:54:07 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Aug 4, 2014 17:01:02 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 18:07:13 GMT -5
umm heaven is mentioned 313 times in the OT and hell 31 times
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Post by faune on Aug 4, 2014 18:25:33 GMT -5
umm heaven is mentioned 313 times in the OT and hell 31 times Wally ~ I tend to agree that Heaven is better demonstrated in the Old Testament than Hell. However, when you review the references I gave for Hell in the Old Testament, I'm sure you will find that in most cases that use of the word Hell was due to a mistranslation of the original meaning of the word in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. If you check a few of my links earlier, you will see what I mean here from the Charts provided? Please take special note of the Latin Vulgate Bible in comparison to other translations for a good cross reference here. The degree of discrepancy is worth considering! Personally, I believe that we have to take all the evidence of researchers into consideration to make a reasonable assessment along these lines? As a Christian, I definitely want to know what pertains here, since it's related to our eternal destiny.
www.mercifultruth.com/the-real-hell.html
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 18:49:14 GMT -5
all i can tell you is that Jesus confirmed the existence of a heaven and a hell in the rich man and lazarus story. if we go "poof" on our death bed after living contrary to God whats the point in living a good life?
for those that believe that paul has a verse: 1Co_15:32 let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
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Post by Gene on Aug 4, 2014 18:53:36 GMT -5
all i can tell you is that Jesus confirmed the existence of a heaven and a hell in the rich man and lazarus story. if we go "poof" on our death bed after living contrary to God whats the point in living a good life? for those that believe that paul has a verse: 1Co_15:32 let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Well. Hmmm. Not sure, but maybe the point in living a good life is to love your neighbor as yourself, care for the widows and orphans in their affliction, and vote Democrat.
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Post by faune on Aug 4, 2014 19:04:18 GMT -5
all i can tell you is that Jesus confirmed the existence of a heaven and a hell in the rich man and lazarus story. if we go "poof" on our death bed after living contrary to God whats the point in living a good life? for those that believe that paul has a verse: 1Co_15:32 let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Wally ~ Well, I did just found another reference regarding the topic of Hell as found in the New Testament, but it isn't backed up by the Old Testament, as I pointed out earlier.
www.christiancourier.com/articles/406-use-of-hell-in-the-new-testament-the
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Post by snow on Aug 4, 2014 19:58:11 GMT -5
all i can tell you is that Jesus confirmed the existence of a heaven and a hell in the rich man and lazarus story. if we go "poof" on our death bed after living contrary to God whats the point in living a good life? for those that believe that paul has a verse: 1Co_15:32 let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. My goodness Wally. You can't be serious about that can you? Is the only reason you are living like you are because of the fear of hell and the promise of possible reward? What about living to make this world a better place to live in? We can't know for sure about what happens after death, so it seems to me that we should try to have the best life we can have and that usually means doing things that make you feel good. Loving and being loved seems to be the #1 reason for happiness. The whole world looks different when you are in love and you don't need reward in the afterlife to make this life worthwhile.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 4, 2014 21:18:08 GMT -5
umm heaven is mentioned 313 times in the OT and hell 31 times Problem is, heaven in the OT was reserved for deities, not humans. And the only humans who went to heaven did not die to get there -- the angels came down to get them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 23:13:48 GMT -5
umm heaven is mentioned 313 times in the OT and hell 31 times Problem is, heaven in the OT was reserved for deities, not humans. And the only humans who went to heaven did not die to get there -- the angels came down to get them. what about Moses who died on the earth but was on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus according to the Bible? where was he if not in heaven?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 4, 2014 23:27:15 GMT -5
Problem is, heaven in the OT was reserved for deities, not humans. And the only humans who went to heaven did not die to get there -- the angels came down to get them. what about Moses who died on the earth but was on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus according to the Bible? where was he if not in heaven? I knew someone would ask. Like I said -- Moses didn't just die and go to heaven, he was carried to heaven before he could be buried. And who knew what went on in heaven -- heaven was above the dome and only occasionally did the gods open the heavens, but people still couldn't see in because the gods were making it rain, and the rain made clouds. In Hebrew theology human beings did NOT have souls. All there was to a human being was a body, and when that died that was it -- over. To them resurrection was the physical body rising again to live on the earth -- nothing more. In order for a human being to go to heaven, the "body" had to be taken there. Christian theology adopted the concept of a soul separate from the physical body from Greek philosophy. This is a documented fact by early church fathers. For Hebrews, the word "soul" that is used in the OT refers to the "life" in a body. Adam breathed in air and became a living soul. That didn't mean "soul" as Christians understand it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 23:34:20 GMT -5
what about Moses who died on the earth but was on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus according to the Bible? where was he if not in heaven? I knew someone would ask. Like I said -- Moses didn't just die and go to heaven, he was carried to heaven before he could be buried. And who knew what went on in heaven -- heaven was above the dome and only occasionally did the gods open the heavens, but people still couldn't see in because the gods were making it rain, and the rain made clouds. In Hebrew theology human beings did NOT have souls. All there was to a human being was a body, and when that died that was it -- over. To them resurrection was the physical body rising again to live on the earth -- nothing more. In order for a human being to go to heaven, the "body" had to be taken there. Christian theology adopted the concept of a soul separate from the physical body from Greek philosophy. This is a documented fact by early church fathers. For Hebrews, the word "soul" that is used in the OT refers to the "life" in a body. Adam breathed in air and became a living soul. That didn't mean "soul" as Christians understand it. so you are saying that his soul/life went to heaven and his body was then buried? if that's the case i agree, life leaves the body before burial
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Post by faune on Aug 5, 2014 0:05:05 GMT -5
Virgo ~ I believe Bob may be saying that the concept of the "soul" in the Old Testament is different from that in the New Testament, as shown in this article below? Actually the concept of an "immortal soul" came later in early church history, and was not even taught in the Old Testament. However, what he shared is true in relation to the Old Testament as we know it. That's the whole point of this thread is to point out the differences in relation to the afterlife between the Old Testament and the New Testament and what is taught regarding Heaven and Hell. Actually, there are some references to Heaven in the Old Testament that would tend to suggest an afterlife for the righteous. However, when you review the subject of Hell, that's entirely a different story. Much of the Hellfire doctrine we accept as part of Christianity was incorporated into scripture around the 4th century, which you learn from studying the Early Church Fathers, as shown within the second reference below.
www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/hellfire2.htm
www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/origin-of-hell-fire.php#.U-Blm010xjp
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Post by faune on Aug 5, 2014 0:10:54 GMT -5
Virgo ~ I believe Bob may be saying that the concept of the "soul" in the Old Testament is different from that presented in the New Testament, as shown in this article below? But, if I'm wrong in my deduction, he can correct me? However, what Bob shared is factual in relation to the Old Testament as we know it. In fact, that's the whole point of this thread is to point out the differences in relation to the afterlife between the Old Testament and the New Testament and what is taught regarding Heaven and Hell. Actually, there are some references to Heaven in the Old Testament that seem to allude to an afterlife for the righteous. However, when you review the subject of Hell, that's an entirely different story. Much of the Hellfire doctrine we accept as part of Christianity was incorporated into Christian teaching, around the end of the 2nd century up to the 5th century, which you can learn from studying the Early Church Fathers, as described below.
www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/hellfire2.htm Was the Doctrine of "Hell" Manufactured by Theologians?
www.ucg.org/death/what-does-bible-say-about-immortal-soul/ What does the Bible say about Immortal Soul?
www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/origin-of-hell-fire.php#.U-BnEE10xjp
The Origin of Hellfire in Christian Teaching
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 0:37:53 GMT -5
I knew someone would ask. Like I said -- Moses didn't just die and go to heaven, he was carried to heaven before he could be buried. And who knew what went on in heaven -- heaven was above the dome and only occasionally did the gods open the heavens, but people still couldn't see in because the gods were making it rain, and the rain made clouds. In Hebrew theology human beings did NOT have souls. All there was to a human being was a body, and when that died that was it -- over. To them resurrection was the physical body rising again to live on the earth -- nothing more. In order for a human being to go to heaven, the "body" had to be taken there. Christian theology adopted the concept of a soul separate from the physical body from Greek philosophy. This is a documented fact by early church fathers. For Hebrews, the word "soul" that is used in the OT refers to the "life" in a body. Adam breathed in air and became a living soul. That didn't mean "soul" as Christians understand it. so you are saying that his soul/life went to heaven and his body was then buried? if that's the case i agree, life leaves the body before burial No -- the "body" was taken up. They did not bury Moses. Moses didn't have a soul when he was dead.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 5, 2014 0:43:00 GMT -5
Thank you Faune, I have been doing some reading on the subject of Hell this last month so great to see what you have posted
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Post by faune on Aug 5, 2014 0:52:07 GMT -5
Problem is, heaven in the OT was reserved for deities, not humans. And the only humans who went to heaven did not die to get there -- the angels came down to get them. what about Moses who died on the earth but was on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus according to the Bible? where was he if not in heaven? Virgo ~ Good point! Perhaps that account of the transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-7 where Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus does seemingly suggest that these men did come down from Heaven to meet with Jesus, since they were all arrayed in glorified bodies? However, Elijah and Enoch never died according to the Old Testament. However, Moses did die, but his burial place was known only by God.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus
www.gotquestions.org/Enoch-Elijah.html
www.epm.org/resources/2009/Dec/31/did-enoch-and-elijah-receive-glorified-bodies/
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Post by faune on Aug 5, 2014 1:32:18 GMT -5
so you are saying that his soul/life went to heaven and his body was then buried? if that's the case i agree, life leaves the body before burial No -- the "body" was taken up. They did not bury Moses. Moses didn't have a soul when he was dead. Bob ~ Moses actually did die at the age of 120 years and was buried by God in some unknown grave in a valley in the land of Moab according to legend. However, it was Elijah and Enoch who were both translated and taken up to Heaven according to their O.T. accounts, which I just shared earlier. I believe you probably met to say Elijah and Enoch instead of Moses below?
Bob shared...
www.gotquestions.org/Enoch-Elijah.html www.epm.org/resources/2009/Dec/31/did-enoch-and-elijah-receive-glorified-bodies/
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Post by faune on Aug 5, 2014 1:59:39 GMT -5
I was impressed to learn today that there are a few references to a future resurrection for the righteous in the Old Testament, but different from how it is portrayed within the New Testament. In the Old Testament, the resurrection happens at the close of the age when the Redeemer returns; whereas, in the New Testament, Paul speaks of the spirit of the righteous immediately going back to God in Heaven after they die and alludes to a future resurrection where the spirit is joined to a glorified body at Jesus' return.
askthepastors.wordpress.com/2010/12/10/did-the-old-testament-teach-about-heaven-after-death/
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 3:48:30 GMT -5
so you are saying that his soul/life went to heaven and his body was then buried? if that's the case i agree, life leaves the body before burial No -- the "body" was taken up. They did not bury Moses. Moses didn't have a soul when he was dead. as faune has clearly shown that the body of Moses was buried according to the Bible
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Post by faune on Aug 5, 2014 10:14:04 GMT -5
In the Old Testament where do you think God translated Enoch, Elijah to?
Where did Moses and Elijah live before they appeared together and talked to Jesus in persons on Mt. Transfiguration?
Abraham's bosom or Paradise/heaven= God's presence, right?
It speaks when Jesus returns to reign as King of kings and the LORD of lords that He will bring the Old and New Testament believers who died for believing in Him and God.... They will get the resurrection bodies before the LIVING saints, who are alive on the earth when Jesus comes again.
I believe the Old Testament and New Testament believers live in God's presence/heaven AFTER they died... In the book of Revelation God we read about the saints who died under the altar, asking God to avenge them, but He told them to wait awhile longer until all of their brothers who would be killed in the like manners.
In Hebrews chapter 11 we read about a GREAT cloud of Old Testament believers/Witnesses looking, watching, and praying from above for those believers below on the earth to finish the race with honor.
Nathan ~ Thank you for bringing Hebrews 11, the faith chapter, to our attention! You made some valid points in your posting about the heroes of faith down through the ages.
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 12:21:03 GMT -5
In a way all their own, it was more like Hebrew people believed in reincarnation. The continual returning to the body. I would compare it to the Buddhist belief that you reincarnate until you reach the level of nirvana when you are then allowed off the 'wheel'. Elijah is an example of someone that got off the wheel. There have been articles that I read that pointed to Jesus also believing in reincarnation, and that was later changed by the early Christian church to 'one kick at the can' theology. You can't motivate people as much when they think they have another life to get it perfect... And Christianity is nothing if it isn't about control of the masses, making sure they know they are sinners and are threatened with hell for eternity, which the Hebrews never believed. So why would Jesus believe it, he was a Jew after all.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 12:58:50 GMT -5
Bob ~ Moses actually did die at the age of 120 years and was buried by God in some unknown grave in a valley in the land of Moab according to legend. However, it was Elijah and Enoch who were both translated and taken up to Heaven according to their O.T. accounts, which I just shared earlier. I believe you probably met to say Elijah and Enoch instead of Moses below? [/p] Bob shared...
[/quote] You're right. My understanding was that because Moses grave was never found, it was presumed that the body itself had been taken up to heaven. And the translation also took the bodies to heaven. It depends on the time period and the writer's understanding of how these bodies got moved up there. Sounds like alien visitor activity, don't you think?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 13:00:59 GMT -5
No -- the "body" was taken up. They did not bury Moses. Moses didn't have a soul when he was dead. as faune has clearly shown that the body of Moses was buried according to the Bible Maybe so. But there were no witnesses to the burial, and the body supposedly ended up in heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 15:51:50 GMT -5
so you are saying that his soul/life went to heaven and his body was then buried? if that's the case i agree, life leaves the body before burial No -- the "body" was taken up. They did not bury Moses. Moses didn't have a soul when he was dead. Deu 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
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Post by faune on Aug 5, 2014 15:54:32 GMT -5
Bob ~ Moses actually did die at the age of 120 years and was buried by God in some unknown grave in a valley in the land of Moab according to legend. However, it was Elijah and Enoch who were both translated and taken up to Heaven according to their O.T. accounts, which I just shared earlier. I believe you probably met to say Elijah and Enoch instead of Moses below? Bob shared...
Bob ~ Do you think Valiant Thor had something to do with it back then?
P.S. ~ HAPPY BIRTHDAY BOB!!!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 16:57:24 GMT -5
Bob shared...
Bob ~ Do you think Valiant Thor had something to do with it back then?
P.S. ~ HAPPY BIRTHDAY BOB!!!
I'm not all that knowledgeable about the theology of Thor, but I might be able to find someone who could help you with that one.
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