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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 16:58:26 GMT -5
No -- the "body" was taken up. They did not bury Moses. Moses didn't have a soul when he was dead. Deu 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. So you're saying that maybe Moses didn't go to heaven anyway?
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Post by snow on Aug 5, 2014 18:22:24 GMT -5
It's your birthday Bob!! Happy birthday!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 18:48:24 GMT -5
Deu 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. So you're saying that maybe Moses didn't go to heaven anyway? no i am saying he was buried whereas you say he wasn't....
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 19:31:49 GMT -5
So you're saying that maybe Moses didn't go to heaven anyway? no i am saying he was buried whereas you say he wasn't.... I didn't say he wasn't buried. I said that if he went to heaven, he had to be taken bodily there -- according to Moses' theology. I don't care whether the angels dug him up or even whether he went to heaven at all. I'm just trying to see how Christians can accommodate Moses' theology in their Christian concept of the cosmos.
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Post by faune on Aug 5, 2014 19:59:29 GMT -5
no i am saying he was buried whereas you say he wasn't.... I didn't say he wasn't buried. I said that if he went to heaven, he had to be taken bodily there -- according to Moses' theology. I don't care whether the angels dug him up or even whether he went to heaven at all. I'm just trying to see how Christians can accommodate Moses' theology in their Christian concept of the cosmos. Bob ~ Now that's a real mind bender as I seek to follow your logic. It appears from Hebrews 11 that most of these early patriarchs believed in a future resurrection around the end time of civilization, but not an immediate departure in Spirit to God's throne as taught in Christianity? Obviously, Moses' spirit went somewhere within the heavenly realm, regardless of his burial by God Himself in an unknown grave? Something supernatural had to transpire in order for him to show up later in the Transfiguration account found in all three of the synoptic gospels? JMT
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 5, 2014 21:36:35 GMT -5
I didn't say he wasn't buried. I said that if he went to heaven, he had to be taken bodily there -- according to Moses' theology. I don't care whether the angels dug him up or even whether he went to heaven at all. I'm just trying to see how Christians can accommodate Moses' theology in their Christian concept of the cosmos. Bob ~ Now that's a real mind bender as I seek to follow your logic. It appears from Hebrews 11 that most of these early patriarchs believed in a future resurrection around the end time of civilization, but not an immediate departure in Spirit to God's throne as taught in Christianity? Obviously, Moses' spirit went somewhere within the heavenly realm, regardless of his burial by God Himself in an unknown grave? Something supernatural had to transpire in order for him to show up later in the Transfiguration account found in all three of the synoptic gospels? JMT Exactly. The Bible doesn't say that Moses' "body" was taken to heaven. Christians will assume that his "soul" went to heaven, but Moses himself would not have believed such a thing because he would not have believed he even had a soul. Understanding this, any Jew hearing that Moses appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration could logically just assume that Moses had bodily been taken to heaven. Christians have a really difficult time understanding the implications of a theology that does not believe in a soul separate from a human body. The Jews did believe in a resurrection -- rising from the dead. But no more than rising from the dead. It was to happen at some end time when some unspecified individual had created some ideal society -- but not at the "end of the world", just at the end of the present troublesome time. But not everyone was expected to be resurrected -- only "obedient" Jews would be resurrected, and that to everlasting life on this earth. The theology of modern Christianity is so foreign to traditional Jewish theology that it's no wonder the Jews thought Greco-Roman Christians were hysterically mad. And the fact that Christians comb the OT for predictions of Christian theological events makes (traditional) Jews shake their heads in wonder -- just how Christians feel when they hear of Muslims using the Christian Bible to explain their own theology.
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Post by faune on Aug 5, 2014 21:55:05 GMT -5
Bob ~ Now that's a real mind bender as I seek to follow your logic. It appears from Hebrews 11 that most of these early patriarchs believed in a future resurrection around the end time of civilization, but not an immediate departure in Spirit to God's throne as taught in Christianity? Obviously, Moses' spirit went somewhere within the heavenly realm, regardless of his burial by God Himself in an unknown grave? Something supernatural had to transpire in order for him to show up later in the Transfiguration account found in all three of the synoptic gospels? JMT Exactly. The Bible doesn't say that Moses' "body" was taken to heaven. Christians will assume that his "soul" went to heaven, but Moses himself would not have believed such a thing because he would not have believed he even had a soul. Understanding this, any Jew hearing that Moses appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration could logically just assume that Moses had bodily been taken to heaven. Christians have a really difficult time understanding the implications of a theology that does not believe in a soul separate from a human body. The Jews did believe in a resurrection -- rising from the dead. But no more than rising from the dead. It was to happen at some end time when some unspecified individual had created some ideal society -- but not at the "end of the world", just at the end of the present troublesome time. But not everyone was expected to be resurrected -- only "obedient" Jews would be resurrected, and that to everlasting life on this earth. The theology of modern Christianity is so foreign to traditional Jewish theology that it's no wonder the Jews thought Greco-Roman Christians were hysterically mad. And the fact that Christians comb the OT for predictions of Christian theological events makes (traditional) Jews shake their heads in wonder -- just how Christians feel when they hear of Muslims using the Christian Bible to explain their own theology. Bob ~ I thought their resurrection would come at the end of some age where peace and good will would be restored ~ like at Jesus' return to set up his Kingdom on earth? However, since the Jews in OT times didn't believe in an immortal soul, the Christian concept would be foreign to them under the circumstances.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 6, 2014 0:02:09 GMT -5
Exactly. The Bible doesn't say that Moses' "body" was taken to heaven. Christians will assume that his "soul" went to heaven, but Moses himself would not have believed such a thing because he would not have believed he even had a soul. Understanding this, any Jew hearing that Moses appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration could logically just assume that Moses had bodily been taken to heaven. Christians have a really difficult time understanding the implications of a theology that does not believe in a soul separate from a human body. The Jews did believe in a resurrection -- rising from the dead. But no more than rising from the dead. It was to happen at some end time when some unspecified individual had created some ideal society -- but not at the "end of the world", just at the end of the present troublesome time. But not everyone was expected to be resurrected -- only "obedient" Jews would be resurrected, and that to everlasting life on this earth. The theology of modern Christianity is so foreign to traditional Jewish theology that it's no wonder the Jews thought Greco-Roman Christians were hysterically mad. And the fact that Christians comb the OT for predictions of Christian theological events makes (traditional) Jews shake their heads in wonder -- just how Christians feel when they hear of Muslims using the Christian Bible to explain their own theology. Bob ~ I thought their resurrection would come at the end of some age where peace and good will would be restored ~ like at Jesus' return to set up his Kingdom on earth? However, since the Jews in OT times didn't believe in an immortal soul, the Christian concept would be foreign to them under the circumstances. Something similar to when Jesus would come back and set up his perfect kingdom on earth is really about the same thing as Jews believed. But for the Jews it never involved the individual being here previously and then leaving, and then coming back. I'm also quite sure (though I have never asked anyone this question) that the great messiah (this individual who will set up the righteous world government) is not expected to be anything more than a normal born human being who is for some obvious reason favored by God to be "anointed" to this great role. Jewish theology, since the time they rejected the existence of any other gods except theirs, have never believed there was or could be anything other than the one god/deity. I know that common Christian theology explains away the problem of three entities, but it just doesn't wash with Jews. Remember, bodies are just bodies and God is just god. The "spirit" was the wind. Jews do believe in everlasting life, but it doesn't involve anything like an immortal soul. Everlasting life for Jews can mean having progeny for as long as time exists. That was the catastrophe of having no children -- no eternal life. Except if you possibly were good enough to resurrect when the Great Messiah appears. Something we have to remember about Jewish theology is that not only do humans not have souls, there is no hell. You just die and disappear. So there is no reason for there to be a savior to save anyone's immortal soul.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 0:37:04 GMT -5
as faune has clearly shown that the body of Moses was buried according to the Bible Maybe so. But there were no witnesses to the burial, and the body supposedly ended up in heaven. God knows and is a witness of such does anyone else really need to know?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 6, 2014 1:31:02 GMT -5
Maybe so. But there were no witnesses to the burial, and the body supposedly ended up in heaven. God knows and is a witness of such does anyone else really need to know? I personally don't need to know, but I find it interesting to know. But remember, nothing I tell you about this matter should be misconstrued as something I believe. I'm telling you what different theological traditions teach. I sometimes tell people what I believe, but usually only when they ask and appear sincerely interested in knowing what I believe. On the other hand, I suspect it would be in your interest to know about such things as what became of Moses, because I think you (1) believe in the Christian afterlife, and that you also (2) believe OT theology is the grounding of NT/Christian theology. That means that there is a discrepancy in your items of faith that may need some reconciling. So if your faith is a serious matter of life and death and after life for you, you may need to deal with that. Otherwise, you can treat it like an interesting aspect of culture that you might want to investigate.
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