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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2014 18:39:52 GMT -5
I`m struggling to see the point of having workers (or them bothering to make any effort) if this is the case. Is there any difference in the end result in the two scenarios below? Scenario 1: A few people get saved through the workers efforts (group a) and God also saves "the righteous" they never got to.(group b) Scenario 2: There are no Workers (or they make no effort to evangelise ) and God saves both of the above groups mentioned anyway (as group a are obviously part of "the righteous" too, that Nate mentions) Both scenarios work because people can't figure out the problem. The problem being, as I said before, that the whole concept of the "TRUTH," as we called it, was based on idea that we had exclusive rights "to salvation" based on having to "profess" through the "workers!"
Such hubris is unbelievable, I know, -but never-the-less, true! We are not alone, of course. Every Christian religion coming down the pike has made being exclusive their cornerstone, beginning with the Catholic church which itself which then spit into the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox.
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Post by snow on Jul 6, 2014 20:31:39 GMT -5
What if he doesn't and they die before they get 'led' to the 2x2 flock? Are they then not saved? The most liberal extension of this that I've heard is that they will be saved if they would have listened to the workers, had they had the chance to hear them. So I guess anyone that has heard the workers, professed and quit are surely destined for hotter climes?
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 6, 2014 20:59:59 GMT -5
I have never heard another church mentioned specifically, but certainly they are mentioned generally as being false. Folks who don't come to meeting are referred to as "of the world" or "not of the truth". Statements are made such as, "God only cares about (particular town mentioned in the news where a tragedy happened) because there is a meeting there". We hear references to meeting goers being "God's chosen people" on a weekly basis. Maybe our area is exceptionally exclusive. I have heard that it is, but don't have enough experience with other areas to make that judgment. I don't know if it's your area. I thought was in a good area then I started going to a Wed night where we were subjected to some anti catholic commentary. Surprise surprise I've opted out of that. Then one Sunday a visitor spent 5 minutes attacking other churches by going on about (unspecified) false doctrine. I just don't know what to think ATM. This is not unusual. I've been in meetings in the past few years in several states and the same comments are made about the "world", the "blind", having hope for those "outside" of the family of God etc etc. It's still alive and thriving! The tiny few here on TMB who are non-exclusive are not representative of the majority.
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 6, 2014 21:05:29 GMT -5
What if he doesn't and they die before they get 'led' to the 2x2 flock? Are they then not saved? God knows what is in people's hearts, their thinking, thoughts, belief, etc . He knows the future and what this so and so person would do if they had the opportunity down the road.. This is God/theirs/Elohim kingdom! Saved or NOT... ONLY God knows.
We are human beings can't see the future but God does.... So, we better leave who is SAVED or NOT saved decision to God.
And THIS is a PERFECT example of the majority mindset of the 2x2 fellowship. Like I've already stated, it's alive and thriving!! Nathan's statement "He knows the future and what this so and so person would do if they had the opportunity down the road.. " suggests to me that if they would have had the opportunity SURELY they would have joined the 2x2 family. God knew they would if they had been given the opportunity.
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Post by ellie on Jul 7, 2014 6:46:16 GMT -5
I don't know if it's your area. I thought was in a good area then I started going to a Wed night where we were subjected to some anti catholic commentary. Surprise surprise I've opted out of that. Then one Sunday a visitor spent 5 minutes attacking other churches by going on about (unspecified) false doctrine. I just don't know what to think ATM. This is not unusual. I've been in meetings in the past few years in several states and the same comments are made about the "world", the "blind", having hope for those "outside" of the family of God etc etc. It's still alive and thriving! The tiny few here on TMB who are non-exclusive are not representative of the majority. I'll turn a deaf ear to people thankful for "the way", prayerful that some people might be drawn to the meetings etc. This was much worse. I draw the line at hearing others and their methods of worship directly insulted.
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Post by ellie on Jul 7, 2014 6:48:44 GMT -5
God knows what is in people's hearts, their thinking, thoughts, belief, etc . He knows the future and what this so and so person would do if they had the opportunity down the road.. This is God/theirs/Elohim kingdom! Saved or NOT... ONLY God knows.
We are human beings can't see the future but God does.... So, we better leave who is SAVED or NOT saved decision to God.
And THIS is a PERFECT example of the majority mindset of the 2x2 fellowship. Like I've already stated, it's alive and thriving!! Nathan's statement "He knows the future and what this so and so person would do if they had the opportunity down the road.. " suggests to me that if they would have had the opportunity SURELY they would have joined the 2x2 family. God knew they would if they had been given the opportunity. Yep this sounds like the party line to me.
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Post by mdm on Jul 7, 2014 9:13:33 GMT -5
I don't know if it's your area. I thought was in a good area then I started going to a Wed night where we were subjected to some anti catholic commentary. Surprise surprise I've opted out of that. Then one Sunday a visitor spent 5 minutes attacking other churches by going on about (unspecified) false doctrine. I just don't know what to think ATM. This is not unusual. I've been in meetings in the past few years in several states and the same comments are made about the "world", the "blind", having hope for those "outside" of the family of God etc etc. It's still alive and thriving! The tiny few here on TMB who are non-exclusive are not representative of the majority.Absolutely true. Now, try to imagine what it's like to bring non-professing, but church-going relatives to meetings and have them exposed to even only insinuations that they are not truly serving God! Not pleasant.
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Post by mdm on Jul 7, 2014 9:52:46 GMT -5
Nathan's line about "saved or not...only God knows..." Is interesting. God tells us in many, many places in Scripture that those that put their trust in Christ as their Saviour and who turn to Him can have complete assurance that they have been saved by the blood of Christ. Man adds many additional requirements simply because they are not just happy for you to follow Christ only - you have to follow them as well. One of the saddest and emptiest expressions that I have heard is when workers say that if the 2x2 fellowship were not the only right way they would be wasting their lives. It simply says that their choice and effort is primarily based on a form of ministry and method of worship - rather than completely on Jesus. I realised a number of years ago that my faith was at least partly in the ministry - which logically means that it cannot be totally in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thankfully God showed me the error of my ways. On the subject of the Holy Spirit I had a lovely chat with a professing friend a couple of weeks ago about the Holy Spirit. Interestingly, to him the Holy Spirit was a force or feeling - when I mentioned that Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as "he" a number of times he seemed surprised so we read the Scripture together. He was also surprised by the verse in Corinthians which indicates the HS lives within us. It was a good chat and we had a good study together. The question I have more broadly is this - if the F&W's believe they only have the HS or Spirit as they say - but they don't know who the HS is - what do they think they have? As in most Indo-European languages, in Greek all nouns have grammatical gender. That something has a grammatical gender doesn't automatically mean that it's a person or even a living being. The problem is in how to translate pronouns into a language where nouns don't have grammatical gender if it's not clear whether the gender implied in the original language is just grammatical or natural gender. Therefore, that the Holy Spirit is referred to as "he" doesn't prove anything. Or should I say "holy spirit" since there were no capitals in the original text? Or maybe we should capitalize every noun as it's done in German? I am not speaking for F&W's, but I believe that I have the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit - that's what I think I have. Did Jesus say: by their understanding of the nature of the Holy Spirit you shall know them? No, but by their fruits and by the love they have for one another - which are the fruits of the Spirit. From my experience with F&W's, they don't insist on having a dogma about the exact nature of the Holy Spirit - I like that, since the Bible doesn't state clearly and unequivocally what his or its nature is either, only what his or its purpose is in our lives. Again, if we were having this conversations in Greek or in my native language, I would naturally say "his" without it automatically meaning that the Spirit is a "he."
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Post by snow on Jul 7, 2014 11:59:38 GMT -5
Nathan's line about "saved or not...only God knows..." Is interesting. God tells us in many, many places in Scripture that those that put their trust in Christ as their Saviour and who turn to Him can have complete assurance that they have been saved by the blood of Christ. Man adds many additional requirements simply because they are not just happy for you to follow Christ only - you have to follow them as well. One of the saddest and emptiest expressions that I have heard is when workers say that if the 2x2 fellowship were not the only right way they would be wasting their lives. It simply says that their choice and effort is primarily based on a form of ministry and method of worship - rather than completely on Jesus. I realised a number of years ago that my faith was at least partly in the ministry - which logically means that it cannot be totally in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thankfully God showed me the error of my ways. On the subject of the Holy Spirit I had a lovely chat with a professing friend a couple of weeks ago about the Holy Spirit. Interestingly, to him the Holy Spirit was a force or feeling - when I mentioned that Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as "he" a number of times he seemed surprised so we read the Scripture together. He was also surprised by the verse in Corinthians which indicates the HS lives within us. It was a good chat and we had a good study together. The question I have more broadly is this - if the F&W's believe they only have the HS or Spirit as they say - but they don't know who the HS is - what do they think they have? Many of the workers, and the friends today believe in the simplicity truth which is God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. Some workers and the friends have further depth of understanding and that's God the Father, Jesus the Son of God and God the Son, and the Holy Spirit is also God. The Holy Spirit is the comforter, teacher, protector of the Church. The Holy Spirit is given to them that OBEY him. The Holy Spirit reveals, and teach who God and Jesus is, and Salvation to mankind. He convicts and convinces of our sins.
What/Who SAVED us? is Knowing and believing Jesus is the Son of God! Many of the workers and the friends do NOT understand is when they say Jesus the Son of God is also saying He is God the Son.
Ron Rhodes wrote: The phrase "Son of God."
Ancient Semitics and Orientals used the phrase "Son of" to indicate likeness or sameness of nature and equality of being. When Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, His Jewish contemporaries fully understood that He was making a claimed to be God. The Gospels reveal that Christ was worshiped (Greek: proskuneo, the same Greek word used of worshiping the Father) as God many times. Jesus always accepted such worship from Thomas (John 20:28), the angels (Heb. 1:6), the wise men (Matt. 2:11), a leper (Matt. 8:2), a ruler (Matt. 9:18), a blind man (John 9:23), Mary Magdalene, (Matt. 28:9), and the disciples (Matt. 28:17). Jesus NEVER sought to correct His followers or set them straight when they bowed down and worshiped Him. Indeed, Jesus considered such worship as perfectly appropriate. Of course, we wouldn't expect Jesus to try to correct people (according to Exodus 34:14) in worshiping Him if He was TRULY God (the Son) in the flesh, as Scripture clearly indicates.
~~ In what sense is Jesus one with the Father?
In John 10:30 when Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," the Jewish leaders immediately picked up stones to put Him to death. They understood Him to be claiming to be God in an equalified sense. Indeed, according to verse 33, the Jews said they were stoning Jesus for BLASPHEMY! "Because you, a mere man, claim to be God." The penalty for blasphemy, according to Old Testament law (Lev. 24), is death by stoning. Jesus was claiming to be God, but He was NOT claiming to be the Father! We know this to be true because in the phrase, "I and the Father are one," first person plural, "We are" (Greek:esmen), is used. The verse literally reads from Greek, "I and the Father We are one." If Jesus intended to say that He and the Father were one person, He certainly would not have used the first person, which clearly implies two persons.
~~ John 8:58 Is Jesus claiming to be eternal or just pre-existent?
Jesus said to the Jews, "I will tell you the truth.... Before Abraham was born, I am!" some misunderstanding this verse to mean that Jesus was just claiming preexistence before Abraham. The context, however, shows that Jesus was pointing not only to his preexistence before Abraham but also to His Eternally! After all, the term I am! points back to God's name in Exodus 3:14 a name that conveys the idea of Eternal self-existence. Yahweh (the I AM that I AM) never came into being at a point in time, for He has always existed. To know Yahweh is to know the Eternal one.
All of this adds tremendous significance to Jesus' encounter with the Jews. Knowing how much they venerated Abraham, Jesus in John 8:58 deliberately contrasted the creation origin of Abraham with His own Eternal, uncreated nature. He was simply showing that He was pre-existent and thus older than Abraham, but that His preexistence is of a different kind than Abraham's. In other words, Abraham's existence was created and finite, beginning at a point in time, but Christ's existence NEVER began, is uncreated and infinite, and is therefore ETERNAL. God the Father, Christ/the Son are distinct Persons within the unity of the ONE God. (John 3:16,17; 7:29; 8:55; 10:15;11:41,42) God is a spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit does not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39). John's Gospel makes it clear that Jesus' mission was to reveal the Father to mankind: "No man has ever seen God (the Father) but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." (John 1:18)/ That's why Jesus could say that when a man looks at Jesus, "he sees the one (the Father) who sent me" (John 12:45). And that's why Jesus could affirm, "Whosoever accepts me accepts Him (the Father) who sent me" (John 13:20).
If this is true and you believe that God knows who is saved and they can be saved outside the ministry of the 2x2's, then why on the Vietnam thread you are wanting Hoa to rejoin the 2x2 ministry? Why do you want the Golden friends to return to the 2x2 ministry? Why can't they be doing what they are doing outside the 2x2 ministry and still be saved? You say one thing, but do you really believe it? From the posts I have seen, you believe that the 2x2 ministry is the only way to salvation and it is through the workers.
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Post by snow on Jul 7, 2014 17:13:30 GMT -5
Ok so you do believe those who leave are not saved?
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 8, 2014 0:22:54 GMT -5
Ok so you do believe those who leave are not saved? Snow, I've seen nothing from Nathan that would suggest otherwise.
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Post by fred on Jul 8, 2014 4:03:23 GMT -5
Ok so you do believe those who leave are not saved? Snow, I've seen nothing from Nathan that would suggest otherwise. 'If you are not in the fellowship you will not be saved' ..... Nathan might use weasel words but this is what he is saying.
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Post by snow on Jul 8, 2014 15:07:59 GMT -5
Ok so you do believe those who leave are not saved? It is NOT over until the fat lady's sing. I know and heard about some ex-2x2 have returned to the fellowship.... My hope and prayer that all will return before they died but I have seen many have NOT return... So, to answer your question.. In my opinion the answer is YES... when they don't have change of hearts or don't want return deep down in their hearts and die in that condition.Yes, thank you Nathan. That's what I thought you felt, but didn't want to put words in your mouth if that wasn't what you believed.
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Post by Lee on Jul 9, 2014 19:33:32 GMT -5
This is another shocking statement by a different elder , is this the common attitude among F&W? Yes it is. 2x2 salvation assumes a charismatic gift of familial piety and personality. This is what the fellowship prefers to the philosophically rich and challenging tradition of Judaism.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2014 1:20:51 GMT -5
1)RossB. wrote: Of course it is important to have ministers, evangelists, preachers - but the pattern for all time is not 2x2. If it was absolutely critical to have ministers who gave up their possessions, didn't marry, went out with a partner then it would get a little more space in the Scriptures than what it has. Jesus would have spelt it out very clearly in Matthew 28 and it would have been followed to the letter of the law. The story of Philip and the eunuch is about as far removed from 2x2ism as you can get. There are many others. ~~ Philip, was NOT an apostle but a disciple/follower. Before William Irvine, John Long, George Walker, Jack/Bill, May Carroll decided to follow Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship in 1899.... There were hundreds, thousands and thousands men and women had followed the same 2x2 Jesus New Testament apostolic ministry for 1800 yrs before the 2x2 workers. ~~ The purpose of Sending/preaching of Two and Two: Apprentice of training/teaching new preachers/apostles starting in gospel work.Paul wrote to Timothy (Began in the ministry with Paul Acts 16: 1-3): II Timothy 2:1-3 Thou therefore, my son be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou has heard of me among many witnesses, the same ENTRUST, thou to faithful men, who shall be able to TEACH others also. Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 2) Ross B. - Okay so you believe that other Christians will be saved outside of the 2x2 - I assume this includes other Christian ministers who take out the gospel as well. Presumably you want exes to come back to the 2x2's because you believe that their salvation will somehow be more secure there? ~~ YesThat's all fine - the form of a ministry is not incredibly important to me. As 2x2 is important to you, I see far more evidence from the NT and early church around local churches being established with bishops/elders and deacons who sent out evangelists/teachers/apostles. Even most of the Apostles in the NT stayed in Jerumsalem and were the leaders of the church there. As I said, we didn't leave because of the form of ministry - I personally think a 100% unmarried ministry (besides being unbiblical) is unhealthy - but so be it. That's the way they believe in - originally there were married workers but of course it's moved on from that. We left because of the teaching - the gospel wasn't being upheld. Up until a few short years before leaving the 2x2's we had no real understanding of: - the fall of man (never heard of the term) - original sin - divine election - who Jesus really was/is - justification - salvation by grace and not by our works - Christ as our complete substitute - sanctification ....and I don't mean just the terms....I mean the concept. In other words we didn't have any real understanding of Christianity. A number of the books of the Bible were pretty much closed books. It started to come together when the local Head Worker preached in a gospel meeting about the 3 things that make "this way the truth". They were 2x2 homeless ministry, no name and few there be that find it. My wife and I looked at each other and wondered why Christ didn't get a mention. It seems Christ and His death and resurrection weren't important enough to make it into the top 3. Philip, was NOT an apostle but a disciple/follower. Before William Irvine, John Long, George Walker, Jack/Bill, May Carroll decided to follow Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship in 1899.... There were hundreds, thousands and thousands men and women had followed the same 2x2 Jesus New Testament apostolic ministry for 1800 yrs before the 2x2 workers.[/font] Nathan, where is the record of these men & women ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2014 6:06:53 GMT -5
Thanks Ross
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 12, 2014 1:43:33 GMT -5
NathanB wrote: Philip, was NOT an apostle but a disciple/follower. Before William Irvine, John Long, George Walker, Jack/Bill, May Carroll decided to follow Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship in 1899.... There were hundreds, thousands and thousands men and women had followed the same 2x2 Jesus New Testament apostolic ministry for 1800 yrs before the 2x2 workers. [/font] Nathan, where is the record of these men & women ?[/quote] ~~~ 1) Here are the history of the brave men and women, who obeying Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic ministry and fellowship 1800 years prior to William Irvine, John Long, George Walker and the Carroll's family.... ~~ 2) A Lamp in the Dark- The Untold History of the Bible. 50 millions families killed (020:18). Rejection literally changing the body Jesus into bread/wine (027:29). www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Osuctvq4QU~~ 3) The ALPS -The Story of the Waldenses: God has always had a remnant left on the planet throughout the ages of time. This is the story of one such group, who escaped to the Alps, when Rome was about to conquer Jerusalem. They were, part of this woman in the wilderness, spoken of, in Scripture (Revelation 12: 9-17). Paul was in Rome during Reign of Nero 68 A.D. he had many converts. They fled to the Alps Valley of Piedmont (Northern Italy, Southern part of France) in the 4th century. Emperor Constantine. Paganism combine with Christianity in Rome. Sun Worship. At (21:00)The Missionary went forth 2 and 2 as Jesus send forth His apostles. The older ones to train his younger companions. They suffered/tortured greatly by the Roman Church.www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d2lPB5xxuA&NR=1&feature=fvwp3) Here are some of the names: 2x2 apostles and followers of Jesus Christ through the centuries.. 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/58/acts-holy-spirit-apostles-1800[/quote] Nathan do the workers agree with you on this? That the Waldeness were the "friends" ? If so why do they not preach this ? Why in 40 plus years have I never heard this preached ??
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 12, 2014 22:33:07 GMT -5
Nathan do the workers agree with you on this? That the Waldeness were the "friends" ? If so why do they not preach this ? Why in 40 plus years have I never heard this preached ?? ~~~ Yes, many workers do..... In their hearts they KNEW there were those before them who had followed Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship through the ages .... "from the shores of Galilee". "Stump theory" And "William Irvine's sister story"... they didn't have the tools, the time or care to trace it but the thought is there... It took me almost 30 yrs to collect, search, and study on the history part. 1. Nathan, I am 5th generation of 6 generations that have gone to meetings, in 40 years I have NEVER heard a worker admit anything about or even mention the Waldeness, I had not even heard of them until coming on here reading things you have posted. I have never heard it preached that the way goes back to these people, so how many workers do you really know that agree with your theory? Where did King James fit into all of this? Was the Church of England part of the 2x2's as well ? Or was King James professing ? I have heard "the stump" theory so many times ... but that's just a cop-out that people use because they know there is no evidence before Irvine to back up the lies they want others to believe. Also if they were the same as the "friends" why don't you go to their Church still ? Someone asked some questions to Willie Hughes in 1931: 1. Would you kindly give me the origin and history of your organization? Answer: The religious world has passed through many stages of apostasy and reformation, since Christ and His apostles established Christianity upon the earth, but we have no reason to think, nor right to say that God has not at all times been able to preserve a true seed in the world, a seed or people who have always looked beyond form or schism and creed back to the Way and Truth of Christ. Back to Christianity in its purity and simplicity, back to the living Christianity which was very much more than a creed, back to the Christ like humble sacrificing ministry as exemplified in the New Testament apostles, back to a Christianity which refused all conformity to the world. But (perhaps as a sign that the world is nearing the return of the Lord to the earth) there has in recent years been a very real and distinct turning of the minds and hearts of men and women towards its simplicity and purity of early Christianity. This is undoubtedly attributable to what we may call the modernization of Christianity, the lack of clear unequivocal preaching of the Gospel of Christ, the tendency of holding only a head belief in Christ, instead of a faith which leads to true discipleship, questionable ways of raising money for religious work, flirtation with the world in its pleasures, sins and fashions, and other things which the Bible says would prevail in the last days. The foundation and authorship of this movement cannot be attributed to any one man or number of men but is the result of reaching after Truth, during a number of years, of many men. Many no doubt have been unwilling for the sacrifice, when their minds were turned back to the lowly way of Christ, but others have been willing to sacrifice everything in their desire to get back to the simplicity and sincerity of the early Christianity and to lead others to do likewise. This is our aim--it is heartily welcomed by some but hated by others. This is as simply as I can put the case although our desire to follow the one Lord and to preach his Gospel binds us into a very real fellowship, we have either any headquarters on earth nor a Headman . Our preachers are all on the same level (as Christ said they should be) and so we desire to be known only as Christians or followers of Christ. [Willie John Hughes was born April 23, 1880 in Rathmolyon, County Meath, Ireland. He professed in 1905 and went in work 1906. He died Oct . 5, 1966 in New Zealand, and is buried in Pukekohe, New Zealand. He Worked in Ireland (1906), Victoria (1907-1909), New Zealand (1909-1913), Nova Scotia (1913-1917), South Australia (1918-1941) and New Zealand (1941-1966), the latter two assignments being as Overseer.
His brother Charlie was overseer in New York/New England and Virginia/Maryland for many years, and a sister Aggie was in the work in Australia, where she died at age 52. He was a good speaker and administrator, very personable, as well as being quite talented musically and poetically. He wrote a few hymns found in Hymns Old & New.] ~~ Thanks, to Cherie Kroppwww.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/cooneyed.php#SaraWestAbout The 1928 Division By Mrs. Sara West August 31, 1954I grew up in the same town (Enniskillen) as Edward Cooney and knew that he with Tom Betty, and my husband John West (deceased) held evangelical meetings together in connection with the different churches. Edward Cooney was then in fellowship with William Irvine of Kilsyth, Scotland and others including William Carroll (deceased), George Walker, Thomas Elliott and his wife. At that time Edward Cooney travelled through Ireland in connection with his father's business and met William Irvine a preacher who was moving out from the Faith Mission to go forth without purse etc. (Matthew ten) to preach the gospel of Jesus, the Son of God (Mark 1:1) on apostolic lines; he was seeking after truth and clearer light. These things happened in 1890’s and onwards.About 1902-3 my husband and I went to meetings in a cottage owned by Tilly Moore who afterwards became a preacher. She was a convert of Edward Cooney's who had given up money and possessions sometime previous to this to preach the Gospel of Jesus in fellowship with William Irvine. In those meetings referred to, we heard Thomas Elliott, one of this small group of preachers give testimony to having sold his home and farm to go forth with his wife to live a life of faith preaching the Gospel of Jesus. Believing them to be God's true people we became one with them in the faith and opened our home to them. Many others in the County did the same thing; among them were my husband's brother Wm. West of Mullaghmeen, Ballinamallard, also three sisters, Mrs. Roberts and husband, Mrs. Reid, and Miss West, Bournemouth, England. About this time William Irvine and Edward Cooney asked my husband and I if we would be willing to have convention in our home. We were willing and conventions were held there (Crocknacrieve) until 1920 when we sold it and came to live at Rossahilly, Ballinamallard. After that conventions were held at Mullaghmeen. By Sara West Rossahilly, Ballinamallard, County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland Testimony of Ida West (Daughter of John & Sara West) Rossahilly, Ballinamallard, N. Ireland August, 1954 An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents, John and Sara West, were brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices. They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others. The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly. ~~~ Testimonies of workers from different parts of the world before they heard or read of John Long's (1898 worker) Journal of how the early workers began/continuing following Jesus apostolic ministry and fellowship.... By Revelation they said: To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909 1)~~~ Edward Cooney said, "We did NOT start this Jesus Way...it was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men." 2) Edward Cooney: There was in the days gone by, a certain man called William Irvine, upon whose heart Gods spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the truth as it is in Jesus. (Reprinted from Edward Cooney's Testimony reprinted in Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960, by Patricia Roberts, Pages 43-45) 3)~~ Edward Cooney: Undoubtedly God called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning; and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people for God's name was William Irvine who, at the time of his being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is the Rock alone on which Jesus Christ would build his church, and that the gates of Hades should not prevail against it. (Letter by Edward Cooney to My dear Sister dated May, 1930 Reprinted from: Selected Letters, Hymns, and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867- 1960 by Patricia Roberts) 4)~~ Ed Cooney stated in his letter to Alice Flett: "I travelled for my father's business and preached inside and outside, as occasion offered, with some persecution. Whilst doing so, I met William Irvine through whom George Walker, Jack Carroll, William Carroll, Willie Gill and a number of the present leaders professed, including James Jardine. William Irvine and I were drawn together as brothers in Christ, each of us claiming liberty to follow Jesus as we received progressive light from God by the Spirit... ~~ "We believe we (the apostles) have existed since Jesus sent forth the 70 disciples Two and Two." Richard Sullivan.~~ "It's from the beginning, planned in God's mind before creation. Walter Nelson, 1967~~ "Was William Irvine the first in the way?" "I think William was amongst the first... I feel that God has had a Way on the earth since before the foundation of the earth... I don't believe William Irvine is the beginner of it." Bea Mokini, 1985 ~~ In answer to your question, "Where did this religion actually begin?" Was it with Jesus as we have been told in Gospel Meetings, or by a man name William Irvine in 1897? We believe Hebrews 12:2 "Looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." I would like to give you some references that mean a lot to me as we carry the Gospel to people and point them to something that is from the beginning and not to something started by MAN. In John 17:5 Jesus spoke of the glory which He had with the Father before the world was, and in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word" etc. So, there is NO date for the starting, as it was with the Heavenly Father before the world. Why would we want something started by a Man when we have in the scripture something that is from the beginning and the scripture to back it up? Doris B. letter, 1989~~ "I never met William Irvine at any time and believe he was used of God, but was never the origin of what we believe. I understand he became too big in himself and left the fellowship we love. Workers I know and respect preach only what Jesus lived and taught with no mention at all of William Irvine, or any other man and give only real appreciation for those who retell in our days things taught in Jesus' day. This faith began in New Testament days, neither in Ireland nor in the U.K. Roddy M. (Scotland Worker) letter dated 6/1/1995~~ "You sound rather disturbed about something to do with a Man Called William Irvine. I do believe he served God in sincerity and truth at one time. What happened I've never asked because our life doesn't really revolve around any person, but around Jesus? We feel sad at heart if any LOSE out because it's eternal life that is our goal, and we are eager to reach that Goal and help others to reach it too. Even though David knew all the "ins and outs" of Saul, he never once tried to expose him---even if we knew all about others (which I don't and never likely want to) I don't think it would be kind to keep talking. Of course the soul (William) died in 1948 You mentioned he is gone and the Judge of all the earth will do right by all, but I am sure your faith isn't built on the rights and wrongs of men, but the simple truth in Jesus. We heard at convention about FAITH--God's word--God said it, we believe it and that settles it--gives us a wonderful peace. We rest our hope on what God has said--What God pointed us to. This settles it once and for all and it brings a great peace. We feel so privileged to know and see what has been revealed to us and this revelation is a rock to us that the very gates of hell Cannot Prevail against. Keep your faith strong in the man Christ Jesus. Tests will come but we must hold fast to what we have attained." Helen P. (Scotland worker) 6/15/1995~~ "William Irvine Did Not start this Church, it is from beginning, and the Way was just made evidence to him, then." Karen Tenniswood, 1996~~ From a Letter: Then we are sometimes asked, "Why don't you speak of older ministers of the faith of Jesus in past generations?" God's answer to this question is found in II Cor. 4:5 "For we preach Not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake." So, it is NOT the will of God for us to be preaching about ministers of past generations. We preach CHRIST." Dan Hilton, 1984~~~ "However, regardless of a written record being preserved, truth is truth. If nobody believes it and or ... if everybody believes it. Whether or not a thing is believed in has nothing to do with its correctness. To use parable illustration, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That is an established fact of existence. Whether or not people believe the sun rises in the East and sets in the West... in no way changes that established fact of reality... Everybody could believe the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, but this would not make it true. For anyone to say that what the Bible teaches was started at some certain year since the first century is pitiful Ignorance, and closing the eyes to established facts and truths. The teachings of the New Testament were started in the first century when God's dear Son was here on the earth. That is those truths were established in a group of believers then. But that is NOT where it started. What God gave through his son was planned before the world began. Matt. 15: 34-35; John 17:24; Acts 3: 20-21; Rom 16: 25-26; I Cor. 2:7; Eph 1:4-5; Titus 1: 2; I Peter 1:18-21 "These truths make very clear that what God... The Son of God... and the Holy Spirit believe in, and what God's true ministers and Christians believed in, was planned in the heart and mind of God before the world began, and we believe the same today. So, it is 100% false for anyone to say that what we Believe was started in some recent year." Dan Hilton, Letter 11/21/89~~ "We are not following some way founded in the early1900s, but it goes back to Christ. Jesus Himself set it up. Whether it was planted in the 1st Century, the 10th century or the 2Oth century, the message is the same, it produces the same thing." Tharold Sylvester 11/16/83~~ "We are simply a continuation of the Author of Truth." Harry Brownlee, 8/16/79 ~~ "We are often asked who started this Church?" Heb. 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." Jesus gave us God's eternal plan of Salvation in its fullness. He is both the Author and Finisher. The way is like a seed, like the wheat seed. It was created at the beginning of the world. Dan Hilton. 1/1/84 Burlington, WA~~ "Look at it like this. I have NO idea who my great-great-grandfather was, but I know that he had to exist, because here I am today. We know how life begets life and it is the same spiritually. I do not believe in some form of Apostolic succession that would be like the Catholic Church. People might build their faith on that, but I would like to believe that the friends, and ministry did come down through history that way." Eldon K. 6/4/95~~ "Often we are asked who started our fellowship, our doctrine, ministry? We are NOT interested in tracing personalities. Some say this was started with Jesus, but it began with God the Father, He gave Jesus the Gospel, the Doctrine. As Thou has sent Me so have I sent them--the same way--God started it all, its the foundation on which we stand." Ken Pagington 9/22/1996. ~~ "Don't you believe that something so Precious to God could be Preserved and passed through his Beloved mouthpieces over any age and time? God's way is eternal!" Cheryl L.~~ "It's from the beginning, planned in God's mind before creation." (Walter Nelson, Post Falls, ID Conv., 1967) "We go back to the beginning." (Calvin Casselman, Boring OR Convention, 1988)~~ "It started in Heaven." (Clarence Anderson, Pukekohe, NZ Convention, 1986) ~~ "I consider that we are the most privileged people in all the world for the simple reason that what we believe and stand for and teach doesn't have its origin with man. You don't go back into the history of the world to find it. You have to go back to the beginning and to God. God had this plan in his heart and mind before the foundation of the world was laid. This way of service is from the beginning." (Arthur Boyce, Silverdale, B.C. Convention, 1961). ~~ "If we have a founder, then we don't go back to the beginning. If we teach that which is from the beginning, then what we have is from the beginning, and what we have is founded on what was from the beginning." (Leo Stancliff, 1/9/97 funeral for Ron Gustason, CA ) ~~ "For anyone to say that What The Bible Teaches was started at some certain year since the first century is pitiful ignorance, and closing the eyes to established facts and truths. The teachings of the New Testament were started in the first century when God's dear Son was here on earth; that is, those truths were established in a group of believers then. But that is not where it started. What was given by God through his Son was planned before the world began. See Matt 15:34-35, John 17:24, Acts 3:20-21, Rom. 16:25-26, 1 Cor 2:7, Eph 1:4-5, II Tim. 1: Titus 1:2, 1 Peter 1:18-21. These truths make very clear that what God...the Son of God...and the Holy Spirit believe in, and what God's true ministers and Christians believed in, was planned in the heart and mind of God before the world began, and we believe the same today. So it is 100% false for anyone to say that what we believe was started in some recent year." (Letter by Dan Hilton dated 11/21/89) ~~~ "I tell people that WHAT WE HAVE is 'from the beginning' ... because IT originated in the heart of God and was revealed by Jesus.... " (letter by Muriel Hendrickson, 1997)
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 13, 2014 1:32:58 GMT -5
~~~ In 1989 my companion Jay Wicks and I heard one of the professors at University of Oregon was given a lecture about Peter Waldo Frenchman, who went forth like the apostle in the 11th century.... And at the same year someone gave us the Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent at Boring Convention.... I copied and gave out Chapter V about the Vaudois and Peter Waldo to many of the friends and some of the workers to read. I continued to investigate more on the Vaudois after I left the work. I found many interesting about the Vaudois belief, teachings, faith and all of the hardship they had endured from the RCC persecution for centuries.
The Waldensians today DO NOT hold the same truth and belief as those in the early times. The Waldensians church today are NOT the real deal.So what changed ? Did they have it wrong in the early times ? I am sure the Waldensians today would disagree with your view that they are wrong, after all they can prove a lineage back to Peter Waldo and the 11th Century ... the friends only have proof back to Irvine. So as I said what about King James & the Church of England ? Where do they fit into your theory ? I can imagine the response you would get here in Australia handing out anything that was not in the Bible to friends & workers. Growing up children's books about Jesus were burnt in our home because that is what the workers told people to do ! I Believe What hat, an ex-2x2 is correct on his observation below..........On Page #5 Page# 6 1) Faith Mission and the 0rigin of the Friends and Workers Movement professing.proboards.com/post/451625/quote/188322) Holiness Movement AND the Friends and Workers Movement professing.proboards.com/thread/20459~~ NathanB: John Long, a Methodist preacher met William Irvine, a Faith Mission preacher in 1897. John Long been a member of the Faith Mission Prayer Union group in 1898-1915. William Irvine had preached together with John Long, who had NEVER join the Faith Mission preachers group. In 7/1898 John Long studied Matthew 10 with WI, Fred Hughes. Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry began in 1898..... Then How can William Irvine be the Founder of 2x2 in 1897?
~~ What hat wrote: I would have voted William Irvine as the Founder for 1897 UNTIL a) I read John Long's journal and b) learned more on the socio-historical background that informed the decision making of Irvine and the other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movements, as well as the Holiness doctrine. Before that I couldn't see the forest for the trees. Now I see Irvine, Long and the other first workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement that was going on in Ireland and Scotland in the late 19th centrury, one which culminated in schism because the main denominations would not accept the Holiness doctrine. The f&w were not the only ones going through this transformation.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 13, 2014 10:55:56 GMT -5
Isobel - I'll let Nathan tell you the names of the Waldensian and Vaudois workers... Nathan refers a lot to the apostolic ministry....which of course existed. But as you know in the NT you also see evidence of many other aspects of the ministry - note Ephesians 4. 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, Paul in 2 Timothy asked Timothy to do the work of an evangelist. Philip not only preached but baptised - he was referred to as an evangelist in Acts 21 where it says he had four daughters - all of whom were prophets! I guess we all used to try and retrofit the workers' form of ministry into the Bible....but it kind of doesn't work. It works in terms of the limited commission to the Jews but of course is completely broadened after that as per Jesus' great commission in Matthew 28. And Ephesians 4 makes it clear that the saints are to be engaged in and equipped for the work of ministry. When you think Jesus' great commission why would you want to limit the preaching/teaching to just a few people? It clearly didn't happen that way in the NT. Again, we're seeing how strong the belief in the workers there are in some of the 2x2ers! It's almost like the 2x2ers have a "god" alright, but the "god" is the 2x2 itinerant ministry! And this is very sad for them! Just as I've noted time and again about what Lyle Schobar wrote in an email to BM, that BM didn't understand what was so vitally important to the w&f's! And that was the "2x2 itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home." NO WORD about Christ in there at all. Where is Jesus in all of this "important issues"? Yes, I know some workers still preach the Jesus gospel, but before it is all over, esp. if they're trying to get a new convert out of the gospel mission, they will by all means begin to preach the 2x2 itinerant meeting and likely will stress it more then the gospel of Jesus Christ. Simply because IF those new potential converts do not "understand" the same things that LS said LM didn't understand those workers will not test the meeting, because they know that the potential new convert does not "get it". It has to be about the 2x2 itinerant ministry because there isn't so much about the gospel of Jesus Christ that isn't understandable IF it is preached as it is in the bible, eh?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 13, 2014 11:13:36 GMT -5
Isobel - the workers would never privately or publicly acknowledge any connection to the Waldensian church. It would raise more questions than they have answers for. The church exists today - it is a evangelical reformed church. It has buildings where people meet. It has ministers. When the workers refer to all other Christian churches being false, have you not heard the extra bit "except for the waldensians..." Nathan knows that when the workers preach that all other Christian churches are false, that there are no exceptions mentioned. Logically, this simply means that they are calling the Waldensian church false - it can't by definition mean anything else. Nathan might explain why the workers publicly state that the Waldensian church is false if as he says "in their hearts they know its true". Are there other examples of where they state the opposite to what they believe ?? Oh but Ross! There ARE workers who know in their hearts the "real truth" about some very important things, but they will not tell it for it would mean a blight upon the workers' reputation! Such as the CSA issues, the rapist issues and the fornication issues. But most importantly, those things you've mentioned that we were never taught about within the bible. I suspect GW perhaps taught some of them as he was a seminary student of the Methodist variety......WI himself had taken a couple of years auditing the seminary classes.....one of the early workers plainly stated that WI did believe in the "Trinity" and did teach it, etc So for some reason the Trinity just got left out and it is probably because it IS very difficult to understand much less be able to verbalize what the understanding you have about it. So I feel that workers just got to where they would not preach it for this reason alone and as CD mentioned in another post that the f&ws perhaps believe close to the Trinity belief but do not understand the terminology used by the larger denominational churches......there are just some of the finer points of the concept the 2x2s just don't get...I know I had never heard any of it before coming on TMB and I disagreed with Nathan and Stanne until I started praying to God for Him to reveal it to me IF HE THOUGHT it was important for me to know what it was and if He wanted me to know that it was vital truth! And it happened that way.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 13, 2014 14:15:48 GMT -5
RE: "auditing the seminary classes"...that MAY have been what WmI meant when he wrote that he "attended the classes from the outside." Or it may have meant he took the courses by correspondence.,,or it may have meant something else? From my WmI book, Chapter 2: 1893: IRVINE ATTENDS THE BIBLE TRAINING INSTITUTE. The Bible Training Institute was founded in 1892 in Glasgow, Scotland and later became known as The Glasgow Bible College. Their first President was John Anderson, a shipping agent from Androssan, Ayshire. Their address is: Glasgow Bible College 731 Great Western Road, Glasgow G12 QX Scotland From Irvine's 1913 Statement: "Was born in Kilsyth, 1863, brought up Presberterian (sic), converted through Presberterian (sic) Preacher in 1893. Instructed in the way of serving the Lord by the late John Colville, M.P. of Motherwell, N.B. Studied in the Bible Training Institute, Glasgow for two years. Preached for five years in the Faith Mission, ( Scotland) and have just gone on preaching and practicing what I was taught, and what is generally called 'Evangelical Christianity.' ” Irvine stated to a reporter: 1892-4. (Went to Bible Training Institute, Glasgow." (Feb. 3, 1907 Lloyd's Weekly News) John Long wrote in his Journal: "After spending two years in the Bible Training Institute, Glasgow, he joined the Faith Mission..." (John Long's Journal March, 1897) Also: "He entered John Anderson's classes in the Bible Training Institute, Glasgow A.D. 1894." Goodhand Pattison wrote in Accounts of the Early Days, “Sometime after his conversion, W.I. spent a term of some (the word "couple" is inserted in one version of Pattison's account) years I think, in what is known as the ‘Bible Institute’, meanwhile getting to know some of the aims and working of the F.M. (Faith Mission), he determined to throw in his lot with them, as being the best he could see. . .” Statement by Wm. Irvine: “...was not satisfied with my knowledge of the book. . . In September they refused to receive me as a student in the Bible Training Institute, Glasgow, though I attended the classes from outside. . . I benefited in the Bible Institute by getting to know the book according to the teachings of the best and most holy and evangelical missionary people in the world.”(October 13, 1920 Letter to Dunbars).
I have read something to the effect that GW was training to become a Methodist minister, but I don't recall reading that GW was attending Methodist seminary--if he was, he was not a full time student. He was a draper's apprentice employed by Ed Cooney's father. (Impartial Reporter July 28, 1910). George said: "Before I knew the Truth, certain things used to appeal to me. I was working in a store at that time and was anxious to make money. I am very glad that when I got to know God's True Way, I found it became possible to forget my own troubles and ambitions and own way and to live for others." (Long Beach CA, Nov 27, 1960) Wm. Rutherford Cooney was a successful merchant with a drapery shop located at No. 4 High Street, Enniskillen. It's highly possible that Ed Cooney was instrumental in connecting George with Irvine. Perhaps Mr. Cooney also owned a store in Dublin. Reportedly, Geo. Walker worked at a store in Dublin called McBirneys, which closed many years ago; the building now contains the Virgin Megastore. However, the inscription "McBirneys" is engraved in concrete on the building. [ Photo of McBirneys in TTT Photo Gallery] When he was 21, Geo. Walker resigned from the store where he worked. Geo. Walker said, "I spent the teen years of my life working in a store. The man I worked for was very religious, but his whole idea of a successful life was making money. Anyone that didn't make money, he called a "straw" man. It was a contemptible expression. He would emphasize money would give one importance." (Hector MN Convention Oct. 1970)
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 14, 2014 16:42:50 GMT -5
Thanks, Cherie! I'd read the different accountings of WI's so called Bible College education and when I'd read his own "outside" explanation, I just termed such a sitting outside a class as we do these days as "auditing" a course.....I audited a history course at the university simply because I didn't make a very acceptable grade point in the course the semester before by a different professor, so I wanted to see just what I would come up with with a different professor.....thankfully I did do very much better, but of course the other grade was the one on my credits.
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