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Post by Gene on Jun 30, 2014 17:11:35 GMT -5
For some friends, the "Spirit" is the court of last resort when it comes to differentiating themselves from others. The thinking goes something like this, "You can't fault the Jones's, don't smoke or drink, don't have a TV, go to their church regularly, understand the Bible better than we do, and yet ... ". Wait for it. "They don't have the Spirit". It makes me wonder what such people think the Spirit actually is. Somehow this view of the Spirit puts it into a tiny little box. The Spirit, or the Holy Spirit, if you will, as God's presence on the Earth, moving men and women's hearts, has to be more widespread than just the friends, more widespread than just the Bible, and more widespread than just Christianity. Otherwise, He is not much of a God, is He? I think a sure sign of the Holy Spirit's presence in a home is a collection of metal folding chairs in the hall closet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 17:27:04 GMT -5
i think that in the last ten or so years i may have heard an other church mentioned once I have never heard another church mentioned specifically, but certainly they are mentioned generally as being false. Folks who don't come to meeting are referred to as "of the world" or "not of the truth". Statements are made such as, "God only cares about (particular town mentioned in the news where a tragedy happened) because there is a meeting there". We hear references to meeting goers being "God's chosen people" on a weekly basis. Maybe our area is exceptionally exclusive. I have heard that it is, but don't have enough experience with other areas to make that judgment. My area is an exclusive as your area: no one outside of our group is saved. What everyone else has is counterfeit. (That is an exact quote.) We are the 'us' in the bible. And the young folks with kids are just as bad as the old folks.
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Post by snow on Jun 30, 2014 18:05:29 GMT -5
I have never heard another church mentioned specifically, but certainly they are mentioned generally as being false. Folks who don't come to meeting are referred to as "of the world" or "not of the truth". Statements are made such as, "God only cares about (particular town mentioned in the news where a tragedy happened) because there is a meeting there". We hear references to meeting goers being "God's chosen people" on a weekly basis. Maybe our area is exceptionally exclusive. I have heard that it is, but don't have enough experience with other areas to make that judgment. My area is an exclusive as your area: no one outside of our group is saved. What everyone else has is counterfeit. (That is an exact quote.) We are the 'us' in the bible. And the young folks with kids are just as bad as the old folks. I always thought you were special hberry! I wonder how people can actually believe that though? It's got to be pretty far fetched to think by some luck of birth you just happened to be in the only group on earth that was going to heaven. If this is true, heaven is an awfully empty place. Don't they even think that through?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 19:41:55 GMT -5
My area is an exclusive as your area: no one outside of our group is saved. What everyone else has is counterfeit. (That is an exact quote.) We are the 'us' in the bible. And the young folks with kids are just as bad as the old folks. I always thought you were special hberry! I wonder how people can actually believe that though? It's got to be pretty far fetched to think by some luck of birth you just happened to be in the only group on earth that was going to heaven. If this is true, heaven is an awfully empty place. Don't they even think that through? I think people get a lot of pleasure out of believing it. The problem is though, the idea is so shaky that strong exclusivists are as nervous as jackrabbits in hunting season. Sorry about the mixed metaphors but I did like the idea of nervous jackrabbits! Anyway, it's a strange existence for them.....very pleased to be one of the chosen few, but very worried that they might get knocked off their perch.
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Post by snow on Jun 30, 2014 20:26:32 GMT -5
I always thought you were special hberry! I wonder how people can actually believe that though? It's got to be pretty far fetched to think by some luck of birth you just happened to be in the only group on earth that was going to heaven. If this is true, heaven is an awfully empty place. Don't they even think that through? I think people get a lot of pleasure out of believing it. The problem is though, the idea is so shaky that strong exclusivists are as nervous as jackrabbits in hunting season. Sorry about the mixed metaphors but I did like the idea of nervous jackrabbits! Anyway, it's a strange existence for them.....very pleased to be one of the chosen few, but very worried that they might get knocked off their perch. Yes, I bet it would be kind of scary really. Especially if you do something to get kicked out then where are you. I would imagine you would not want to rock the boat at all with that strong an exclusive belief. ps I do like your' mixed metaphors' though... Good visuals lol..
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Post by applesandbacon on Jun 30, 2014 20:36:19 GMT -5
I have never heard another church mentioned specifically, but certainly they are mentioned generally as being false. Folks who don't come to meeting are referred to as "of the world" or "not of the truth". Statements are made such as, "God only cares about (particular town mentioned in the news where a tragedy happened) because there is a meeting there". We hear references to meeting goers being "God's chosen people" on a weekly basis. Maybe our area is exceptionally exclusive. I have heard that it is, but don't have enough experience with other areas to make that judgment. My area is an exclusive as your area: no one outside of our group is saved. What everyone else has is counterfeit. (That is an exact quote.) We are the 'us' in the bible. And the young folks with kids are just as bad as the old folks. Yes. To be fair, I have heard the phrase "close to the kingdom" or "we have hope for them" used to describe an outsider or ex who meets certain criteria. Still, I only know of one other professing family who believes non-friendlies can have "the spirit" without necessarily being drawn to the meetings.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 20:39:16 GMT -5
My area is an exclusive as your area: no one outside of our group is saved. What everyone else has is counterfeit. (That is an exact quote.) We are the 'us' in the bible. And the young folks with kids are just as bad as the old folks. Yes. To be fair, I have heard the phrase "close to the kingdom" or "we have hope for them" used to describe an outsider or ex who meets certain criteria. Still, I only know of one other professing family who believes non-friendlies can have "the spirit" without necessarily being drawn to the meetings. Now meet hberry, Clearday, and a quite a few others!
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Post by applesandbacon on Jun 30, 2014 20:42:45 GMT -5
I always thought you were special hberry! I wonder how people can actually believe that though? It's got to be pretty far fetched to think by some luck of birth you just happened to be in the only group on earth that was going to heaven. If this is true, heaven is an awfully empty place. Don't they even think that through? I think people get a lot of pleasure out of believing it. The problem is though, the idea is so shaky that strong exclusivists are as nervous as jackrabbits in hunting season. Sorry about the mixed metaphors but I did like the idea of nervous jackrabbits! Anyway, it's a strange existence for them.....very pleased to be one of the chosen few, but very worried that they might get knocked off their perch. The problem is, it's so hard to reconcile that belief with the desire for humility. The way many go about (to my observation) it is to sandwich exclusivist statements with a good deal of self hate.
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Post by applesandbacon on Jun 30, 2014 20:45:18 GMT -5
Yes. To be fair, I have heard the phrase "close to the kingdom" or "we have hope for them" used to describe an outsider or ex who meets certain criteria. Still, I only know of one other professing family who believes non-friendlies can have "the spirit" without necessarily being drawn to the meetings. Now meet hberry, Clearday, and a quite a few others! Yes! Perusing this site has been an eye-opening experience!
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Post by snow on Jun 30, 2014 21:43:49 GMT -5
Yes, it does Ross, thank you. Your church sounds like they are more focused on their own salvation and are not worried about determining other churches salvation. I have heard that about the Catholic church before. Protestant churches have a problem with papal infallibility, and I certainly can understand that. In that way the Truth and the Catholic Church have something in common. For many in the Truth, the workers definitely have spiritual authority over their members. Maybe not to the point of infallibility, but they do have power with some. I guess I still wonder what the traditional churches that believe that belief in the Trinity is important, feel about the salvation of churches that do not believe in the Trinity? Any insight into that for me? Snow, because the Trinity or triune nature of God is accepted as core doctrine by Christian churches across the board, I have never heard any reference to any christian church not believing it. In mainstream Christianity, the groups that don't believe it (ie 2x2's, JW's, Christadelphians) don't really register on the radar. Most have never heard of the 2x2's, Jehovah's Witnesses are widely recognised as a sect who has their particular take on a few things (refusing blood transfusions tends to hit media so everybody is aware of the JW's - also through their door knocking) and Christadelphians are similar to 2x2's in size but probably more fragmented so the average Christian minister/pastor wouldn't run into them very often, if at all. We have started a three series on the Holy Spirit at the moment and it was stated up front (based on Scriptural references) that we know that the HS is God, is Holy and is a person (ie is relational - not a person as we would think of a human being). In other words, up front it was stated that the HS is one of the persons that make up our triune God. There was no reference to what other groups believe. In my conversations with Christian ministers over the years, they are surprised to hear that as a Christian growing up I didn't believe in the Trinity (ie it is pretty much universally accepted that every Christian believes in a triune God) and when you give them a balanced view of the role of the workers in the fellowship, their universal response (and this has been tested by different folk down under) is that the workers' ministry sounds very Catholic. This would come from the role of a Priest in the RCC which in many ways is similar to the way in which workers are positioned in the 2x2 fellowship. Hope this helps - you'll appreciate it's very difficult to find a Christian minister who has heard of the 2x2's these days. Yes I would imagine it would be hard to find a traditional preacher that knows about the 2x2's. They are pretty under the radar. I am surprised though that one would say they are like the Catholics. The Catholics are the ones that won the war over whether there was a Trinity in the first place. That is where the idea started, shall we say. What is now universally accepted, wasn't always. My thought is this. If belief in the triune is now the core of Christian belief, would it be fair to say that those denominations or sects that don't believe that are believed to be not saved? I believe that is what Irvine Grey has been saying. He goes as far as to call them a cult and a diabolical one. So I gather from that statement that classical evangelism does not believe anyone can be saved if they don't agree with the core of Christian belief. Since belief in the triune is a basic core belief, I guess that would mean those who do not believe it are not saved nor Christian? I guess that's the biggest question that is bothering me at the moment. Are Mormons, Christadelphians, 2x2's and Jehovah Witnesses considered Christian and saved by the more mainstream churches, at least in theory?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 21:55:37 GMT -5
Yes. To be fair, I have heard the phrase "close to the kingdom" or "we have hope for them" used to describe an outsider or ex who meets certain criteria. Still, I only know of one other professing family who believes non-friendlies can have "the spirit" without necessarily being drawn to the meetings. Now meet hberry, Clearday, and a quite a few others! I think the descriptor for us is 'we've lost our revelation'
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 22:11:23 GMT -5
Now meet hberry, Clearday, and a quite a few others! I think the descriptor for us is 'we've lost our revelation' And remember, never present the facts to someone who does have a revelation!
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Post by ellie on Jul 1, 2014 7:18:50 GMT -5
i think that in the last ten or so years i may have heard an other church mentioned once I have never heard another church mentioned specifically, but certainly they are mentioned generally as being false. Folks who don't come to meeting are referred to as "of the world" or "not of the truth". Statements are made such as, "God only cares about (particular town mentioned in the news where a tragedy happened) because there is a meeting there". We hear references to meeting goers being "God's chosen people" on a weekly basis. Maybe our area is exceptionally exclusive. I have heard that it is, but don't have enough experience with other areas to make that judgment. I don't know if it's your area. I thought was in a good area then I started going to a Wed night where we were subjected to some anti catholic commentary. Surprise surprise I've opted out of that. Then one Sunday a visitor spent 5 minutes attacking other churches by going on about (unspecified) false doctrine. I just don't know what to think ATM.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 2, 2014 10:46:50 GMT -5
Yes I would imagine it would be hard to find a traditional preacher that knows about the 2x2's. They are pretty under the radar. I am surprised though that one would say they are like the Catholics. The Catholics are the ones that won the war over whether there was a Trinity in the first place. That is where the idea started, shall we say. What is now universally accepted, wasn't always. My thought is this. If belief in the triune is now the core of Christian belief, would it be fair to say that those denominations or sects that don't believe that are believed to be not saved? I believe that is what Irvine Grey has been saying. He goes as far as to call them a cult and a diabolical one. So I gather from that statement that classical evangelism does not believe anyone can be saved if they don't agree with the core of Christian belief. Since belief in the triune is a basic core belief, I guess that would mean those who do not believe it are not saved nor Christian? I guess that's the biggest question that is bothering me at the moment. Are Mormons, Christadelphians, 2x2's and Jehovah Witnesses considered Christian and saved by the more mainstream churches, at least in theory? As I've previously stated on this Board, I don't accept that the Catholics (as in the Roman Catholic Church) "won the war" on the triune nature of our God. It was accepted by the Apostles and the Jewish and Gentile Christians that Jesus was God - well before the RCC came into existence.....but let's leave that to one side as it will open a discussion that's been had a number of weeks ago. As far as I understand, the Mormons, Christadelphians, 2x2's, Jehovah Witnesses, Exclusive Brethren are generally treated by mainstream Christian theologians/churches(not just those involved in evangelical/reformed churches) as sects. Some individuals go further (as you indicate) and label them as cults - I don't. However, as has been discussed recently there is evidence of cultish behaviour in some groups. Some place particularly high demands on their membership eg the Exclusive Brethren (who also have no official name) ask their members not to mix with others eg kids at school (if they don't go to a Brethren School) would eat their lunch separately from other "unsaved" people. I would say that Christian sects who don't believe in a triune God have broader challenges in doctrine. They generally place an incredibly high emphasis on human endeavour in the salvation process and may have other different beliefs (eg JW's - no blood transfusions etc). When you are in an exclusive group (and subject to that teaching) I think people are "trained" to think negatively about Christian churches generally - it reinforces how special one feels at being part of the exclusive group. My experience in mainstream Christian churches so far has been that virtually nothing is ever said about other particular churches by name or reference when a minister is preaching. The doctrine that the church upholds is preached on from time to time....and by definition wrong doctrine (eg prosperity gospel) is highlighted. However, I just haven't heard exclusive language like I was used to and well trained in when I went to meetings (even though workers might be less critical about other "false churches" these days than they were in the past). I don't know how others feel but I want to hear preaching every week from the word of God that encourages me, challenges me, warns me, builds me up so that I can understand more about God and His Word and become more whole-hearted in my response to the grace that God has shown me. If I went to a church that regularly "bagged" all other churches as false and tried to make me feel special that I belonged to "their" church - (a) it wouldn't be particularly encouraging (b) it's not focussed on what God has given me in Christ (which like anyone I don't deserve) and (c) it would make me wary about the minister's agenda. I think the saying is "once bitten, twice shy..." There is a strong trend toward accepting errancy in the Bible and different views on Incarnation right across all Christian denominations. This began in the Sixties with a few theologians, and has been growing ever since. In my view, this is the branch of Christianity that has some hope of surviving in the western World.
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Post by snow on Jul 2, 2014 11:49:23 GMT -5
Yes I would imagine it would be hard to find a traditional preacher that knows about the 2x2's. They are pretty under the radar. I am surprised though that one would say they are like the Catholics. The Catholics are the ones that won the war over whether there was a Trinity in the first place. That is where the idea started, shall we say. What is now universally accepted, wasn't always. My thought is this. If belief in the triune is now the core of Christian belief, would it be fair to say that those denominations or sects that don't believe that are believed to be not saved? I believe that is what Irvine Grey has been saying. He goes as far as to call them a cult and a diabolical one. So I gather from that statement that classical evangelism does not believe anyone can be saved if they don't agree with the core of Christian belief. Since belief in the triune is a basic core belief, I guess that would mean those who do not believe it are not saved nor Christian? I guess that's the biggest question that is bothering me at the moment. Are Mormons, Christadelphians, 2x2's and Jehovah Witnesses considered Christian and saved by the more mainstream churches, at least in theory? As I've previously stated on this Board, I don't accept that the Catholics (as in the Roman Catholic Church) "won the war" on the triune nature of our God. It was accepted by the Apostles and the Jewish and Gentile Christians that Jesus was God - well before the RCC came into existence.....but let's leave that to one side as it will open a discussion that's been had a number of weeks ago. As far as I understand, the Mormons, Christadelphians, 2x2's, Jehovah Witnesses, Exclusive Brethren are generally treated by mainstream Christian theologians/churches(not just those involved in evangelical/reformed churches) as sects. Some individuals go further (as you indicate) and label them as cults - I don't. However, as has been discussed recently there is evidence of cultish behaviour in some groups. Some place particularly high demands on their membership eg the Exclusive Brethren (who also have no official name) ask their members not to mix with others eg kids at school (if they don't go to a Brethren School) would eat their lunch separately from other "unsaved" people. I would say that Christian sects who don't believe in a triune God have broader challenges in doctrine. They generally place an incredibly high emphasis on human endeavour in the salvation process and may have other different beliefs (eg JW's - no blood transfusions etc). When you are in an exclusive group (and subject to that teaching) I think people are "trained" to think negatively about Christian churches generally - it reinforces how special one feels at being part of the exclusive group. My experience in mainstream Christian churches so far has been that virtually nothing is ever said about other particular churches by name or reference when a minister is preaching. The doctrine that the church upholds is preached on from time to time....and by definition wrong doctrine (eg prosperity gospel) is highlighted. However, I just haven't heard exclusive language like I was used to and well trained in when I went to meetings (even though workers might be less critical about other "false churches" these days than they were in the past). I don't know how others feel but I want to hear preaching every week from the word of God that encourages me, challenges me, warns me, builds me up so that I can understand more about God and His Word and become more whole-hearted in my response to the grace that God has shown me. If I went to a church that regularly "bagged" all other churches as false and tried to make me feel special that I belonged to "their" church - (a) it wouldn't be particularly encouraging (b) it's not focussed on what God has given me in Christ (which like anyone I don't deserve) and (c) it would make me wary about the minister's agenda. I think the saying is "once bitten, twice shy..." Thanks for the answer Ross. I agree with most of what you say. I especially agree that these 'sects' are trained to think negatively about any other sect out there. Only their sect is right. Imo, that is a sad philosophy and one of the reasons I quit professing. I couldn't go along with the belief that good people outside the 2x2's were destined for hell.
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Post by snow on Jul 2, 2014 17:05:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the answer Ross. I agree with most of what you say. I especially agree that these 'sects' are trained to think negatively about any other sect out there. Only their sect is right. Imo, that is a sad philosophy and one of the reasons I quit professing. I couldn't go along with the belief that good people outside the 2x2's were destined for hell. God is fair and just... He will NOT allow the righteous destine for hell. The Holy Spirit has been on the earth to continue the work of Jesus the last 2000 yrs. His eye go to and fro the whole earth... We read in the book of Acts of the apostles that the Spirit KNOWS the hearts of men and women and lead them to the apostles and his followers or the apostles and his followers to the seeker of God...
Only the righteous? And who are they? I was told they were those who were in the 2x2 system. I was told if people had the right spirit they would find the 2x2's and be saved. That still tells me that the righteous are only those who are in the 2x2 understanding of things.
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Post by ellie on Jul 3, 2014 7:18:39 GMT -5
Only the righteous? And who are they? I was told they were those who were in the 2x2 system. I was told if people had the right spirit they would find the 2x2's and be saved. That still tells me that the righteous are only those who are in the 2x2 understanding of things. Righteous= God fearing people, Christians in different churches, Buddhists, Muslims, or those who believe in a Creator of the Universe....Is your position that these righteous God fearing people will be lead to the workers? Or is your position that any god fearing person will be saved from 'hell' where they are?
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Post by snow on Jul 3, 2014 10:44:54 GMT -5
Only the righteous? And who are they? I was told they were those who were in the 2x2 system. I was told if people had the right spirit they would find the 2x2's and be saved. That still tells me that the righteous are only those who are in the 2x2 understanding of things. Righteous= God fearing people, Christians in different churches, Buddhists, Muslims, or those who believe in a Creator of the Universe....I thought you said before that it is only 2x2's that are saved? Confused by this
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Post by xna on Jul 3, 2014 14:45:37 GMT -5
If you look at this "Pentecostal" 4 year old, and a "2x2" 4 year old "playing meeting", I suspect each group would see the holy spirit at work in their child, but a form of child abuse by the other group. youtu.be/g4ABbktVDIc
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Post by snow on Jul 3, 2014 16:51:11 GMT -5
I thought you said before that it is only 2x2's that are saved? Confused by this God will lead them (Righteous= God fearing people, Christians in different churches, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, or those who believe in a Creator of the Universe) to Jesus 2x2 New Testament church= ONE fold/flock.What if he doesn't and they die before they get 'led' to the 2x2 flock? Are they then not saved?
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Post by openingact34 on Jul 6, 2014 15:36:42 GMT -5
Our elder frequently makes statements like this. So do some of the others in our meeting. We have one person who regularly slams the invalidity of other groups and "the world". Everyone else almost unanimously stays away from that practice. There is the occasional positive remark from the liberal end, but for the most part, it is silence either way. Thread brings back a lot of memories for me. I remember a Sun. morning meeting shortly after Mother Teresa had died, and in the wake of all the media coverage. We heard from multiple people how she didn't know God, God didn't know her, all the good works didn't count for anything, and she was going to hell to suffer now. There sure was a lot of self congratulation for being in the 2x2 group though. Even as a young teenager, I remember being quite disgusted with this display.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 15:58:24 GMT -5
We have one person who regularly slams the invalidity of other groups and "the world". Everyone else almost unanimously stays away from that practice. There is the occasional positive remark from the liberal end, but for the most part, it is silence either way. Thread brings back a lot of memories for me. I remember a Sun. morning meeting shortly after Mother Teresa had died, and in the wake of all the media coverage. We heard from multiple people how she didn't know God, God didn't know her, all the good works didn't count for anything, and she was going to hell to suffer now. There sure was a lot of self congratulation for being in the 2x2 group though. Even as a young teenager, I remember being quite disgusted with this display. Yes, and we get "so sad" for them.......needlessly. Jerome Frandle was recently quoted as telling a convention crowd "we are the only ones who know 'true fellowship' ". And on it goes.....
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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2014 16:08:36 GMT -5
God will lead them (Righteous= God fearing people, Christians in different churches, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, or those who believe in a Creator of the Universe) to Jesus 2x2 New Testament church= ONE fold/flock. What if he doesn't and they die before they get 'led' to the 2x2 flock? Are they then not saved? The most liberal extension of this that I've heard is that they will be saved if they would have listened to the workers, had they had the chance to hear them.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2014 16:17:01 GMT -5
What if he doesn't and they die before they get 'led' to the 2x2 flock? Are they then not saved? God knows what is in people's hearts, their thinking, thoughts, belief, etc . He knows the future and what this so and so person would do if they had the opportunity down the road.. This is God/theirs/Elohim kingdom! Saved or NOT... ONLY God knows.
We are human beings can't see the future but God does.... So, we better leave who is SAVED or NOT saved decision to God.
How do you reconcile that thinking to the "only way to Jesus is through the meeting in the home and ministry without a home". If that is true, then anyone who decides to worship at another church (say) that was raised in the friends' church, would not be saved, would they? Sure, it is God's decision, but we would seem to be quite safe in making a prediction here.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 16:28:49 GMT -5
What if he doesn't and they die before they get 'led' to the 2x2 flock? Are they then not saved? The most liberal extension of this that I've heard is that they will be saved if they would have listened to the workers, had they had the chance to hear them. That's about the only exception that is allowed that I have ever heard too. The implication is that we are talking about people who live in the jungle of Borneo, mountains of the Andes, or in boats on Tonle Sap Lake. Even then, today a worker could access most of those people if they had the information of their whereabouts. There would be almost no one inaccessible to workers these days. One of the problems of the concept that people will be "led to" the workers is that it causes the workers to abandon evangelistic efforts and to sit back and wait for people to find them. That idea is obviously not working.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2014 16:39:33 GMT -5
The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept "that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive.
I think that many people try to hang on because so many in a family are professing.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2014 16:50:30 GMT -5
For some friends, the "Spirit" is the court of last resort when it comes to differentiating themselves from others. The thinking goes something like this, "You can't fault the Jones's, don't smoke or drink, don't have a TV, go to their church regularly, understand the Bible better than we do, and yet ... ". Wait for it. "They don't have the Spirit". It makes me wonder what such people think the Spirit actually is. Somehow this view of the Spirit puts it into a tiny little box. The Spirit, or the Holy Spirit, if you will, as God's presence on the Earth, moving men and women's hearts, has to be more widespread than just the friends, more widespread than just the Bible, and more widespread than just Christianity. Otherwise, He is not much of a God, is He? I think a sure sign of the Holy Spirit's presence in a home is a collection of metal folding chairs in the hall closet. Gene, do you mean that you believe that the "Holy Spirit" is still "in the the closet?"
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Post by uker260702 on Jul 6, 2014 17:11:17 GMT -5
Is your position that these righteous God fearing people will be lead to the workers? Or is your position that any god fearing person will be saved from 'hell' where they are? Yes, God can save them where they are if they didn't have the opportunity in hearing the gospel. <snip>
I`m struggling to see the point of having workers (or them bothering to make any effort) if this is the case. Is there any difference in the end result in the two scenarios below? Scenario 1: A few people get saved through the workers efforts (group a) and God also saves "the righteous" they never got to.(group b) Scenario 2: There are no Workers (or they make no effort to evangelise ) and God saves both of the above groups mentioned anyway (as group a are obviously part of "the righteous" too, that Nate mentions)
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