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Post by déjà vu on Jun 29, 2014 10:44:22 GMT -5
This is another shocking statement by a different elder , is this the common attitude among F&W?
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Post by snow on Jun 29, 2014 10:49:25 GMT -5
This is another shocking statement by a different elder , is this the common attitude among F&W? Well if you believe you are the only right 'way' and the only way to salvation is through the workers, it is probably a belief that is shared by the more exclusive minded ones. How could it not be really?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 13:55:09 GMT -5
I had an elder say that the Holy Spirit could only be in a worker-appointed meeting. He has changed his view on that though.
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Post by déjà vu on Jun 29, 2014 14:40:31 GMT -5
I had an elder say that the Holy Spirit could only be in a worker-appointed meeting. He has changed his view on that though. It sounds as he had a REVELATION :
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Post by emy on Jun 29, 2014 14:53:23 GMT -5
Well if you believe you are the only right 'way' and the only way to salvation is through the workers, it is probably a belief that is shared by the more exclusive minded ones. How could it not be really? May I make a correction to your statement? Well if you believe you are the only right 'way' and the only way to salvation is through the workers the Holy Spirit dwelling within, it is probably that would be a belief that is shared mostly by the more exclusive minded ones.Not all believe that the Holy Spirit is only found within the fellowship. and not all believe that everyone in the fellowship possesses the Holy Spirit.
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Post by Greg on Jun 29, 2014 15:25:57 GMT -5
Well if you believe you are the only right 'way' and the only way to salvation is through the workers, it is probably a belief that is shared by the more exclusive minded ones. How could it not be really? May I make a correction to your statement? Well if you believe you are the only right 'way' and the only way to salvation is through the workers the Holy Spirit dwelling within, it is probably that would be a belief that is shared mostly by the more exclusive minded ones.Not all believe that the Holy Spirit is only found within the fellowship. and not all believe that everyone in the fellowship possesses the Holy Spirit. Snow's supposition needs no correcting. I think she has related a possible belief among the F&W. Emy has, too. Would those under Snow's supposition think those under Emy's supposition are "not right"? And vice-versa? Not that any would judge. Likely very few, if any among the F&W think all the F&W possess the Holy Spirit. Hard to know how many F&W think the Holy Spirit is with people outside the F&W fellowship. I have heard some say they think that, usually with the qualifier "but they will come to fellowship with the F&W" [or some such phrasing].
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Post by snow on Jun 29, 2014 15:53:11 GMT -5
Well if you believe you are the only right 'way' and the only way to salvation is through the workers, it is probably a belief that is shared by the more exclusive minded ones. How could it not be really? May I make a correction to your statement? Well if you believe you are the only right 'way' and the only way to salvation is through the workers the Holy Spirit dwelling within, it is probably that would be a belief that is shared mostly by the more exclusive minded ones.Not all believe that the Holy Spirit is only found within the fellowship. and not all believe that everyone in the fellowship possesses the Holy Spirit. I recognize not everyone believes that. That's why I made the comment that it was probably a belief shared by the more exclusive ones in the group. I know my father didn't feel salvation was possible without the workers and the 'way'. So I'm sure he didn't think the Holy Spirit could be anywhere but worker sanctioned meetings. I can't comment on whether or not he felt some of the F&W's didn't have the Holy Spirit. I don't know. I fully recognize not all of the group are that exclusive in their thinking.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 15:56:35 GMT -5
May I make a correction to your statement? Well if you believe you are the only right 'way' and the only way to salvation is through the workers the Holy Spirit dwelling within, it is probably that would be a belief that is shared mostly by the more exclusive minded ones.Not all believe that the Holy Spirit is only found within the fellowship. and not all believe that everyone in the fellowship possesses the Holy Spirit. I recognize not everyone believes that. That's why I made the comment that it was probably a belief shared by the more exclusive ones in the group. I know my father didn't feel salvation was possible without the workers and the 'way'. So I'm sure he didn't think the Holy Spirit could be anywhere but worker sanctioned meetings. I can't comment on whether or not he felt some of the F&W's didn't have the Holy Spirit. I don't know. I fully recognize not all of the group are that exclusive in their thinking. I would expect that a significant majority would see it the way in your statement. The majority is not as large as it once once though.
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Post by snow on Jun 29, 2014 16:57:44 GMT -5
I recognize not everyone believes that. That's why I made the comment that it was probably a belief shared by the more exclusive ones in the group. I know my father didn't feel salvation was possible without the workers and the 'way'. So I'm sure he didn't think the Holy Spirit could be anywhere but worker sanctioned meetings. I can't comment on whether or not he felt some of the F&W's didn't have the Holy Spirit. I don't know. I fully recognize not all of the group are that exclusive in their thinking. I would expect that a significant majority would see it the way in your statement. The majority is not as large as it once once though. I know even when I was young not everyone was that exclusive. I remember people telling me later on that my father was very 'devout' in comparison to most of the friends. I imagine that was a polite way of saying he was more exclusive minded than some. Good to hear that is not the majority anymore. Seems too rigid to my way of thinking.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 17:17:46 GMT -5
I would expect that a significant majority would see it the way in your statement. The majority is not as large as it once once though. I know even when I was young not everyone was that exclusive. I remember people telling me later on that my father was very 'devout' in comparison to most of the friends. I imagine that was a polite way of saying he was more exclusive minded than some. Good to hear that is not the majority anymore. Seems too rigid to my way of thinking. Just to clarify, it is still the majority, just a smaller majority. I can picture your dad's devoutedness level. That is definitely a minority these days. They were more common in our parents' generation and my generation only has a relatively small minority who are bordering the conservative radical level. The younger generation is pretty cool. The young adult kids of the conservative radicals have mostly quit the meetings (for obvious reasons) and the kids who stay generally have parents who are moderates. Younger devotees (devoutees?) don't seem to have the same tough edge that the old ones had. These are general rules but of course there are always plenty of exceptions.
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Post by jondough on Jun 29, 2014 17:24:45 GMT -5
Someone just spoke Wed night (our study was Acts 2 - Day of Pentecost). Someone said "we serve a living Christ" The World serves a dead Christ".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 17:33:45 GMT -5
Someone just spoke Wed night (our study was Acts 2 - Day of Pentecost). Someone said "we serve a living Christ" The World serves a dead Christ". I would suggest that that is a solid majority opinion.
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Post by snow on Jun 29, 2014 18:00:29 GMT -5
I know even when I was young not everyone was that exclusive. I remember people telling me later on that my father was very 'devout' in comparison to most of the friends. I imagine that was a polite way of saying he was more exclusive minded than some. Good to hear that is not the majority anymore. Seems too rigid to my way of thinking. Just to clarify, it is still the majority, just a smaller majority. I can picture your dad's devoutedness level. That is definitely a minority these days. They were more common in our parents' generation and my generation only has a relatively small minority who are bordering the conservative radical level. The younger generation is pretty cool. The young adult kids of the conservative radicals have mostly quit the meetings (for obvious reasons) and the kids who stay generally have parents who are moderates. Younger devotees (devoutees?) don't seem to have the same tough edge that the old ones had. These are general rules but of course there are always plenty of exceptions. Ok, I think I understand. I know that some of the young adults when I was a kid didn't seem to be so fanatic as my dad. I am friends still with some of them and they would be considered pretty liberal by my dad's standards, but possibly pretty 'average' by today's standards? I think they probably still hold the belief that their way is the right way, but also would acknowledge that other groups could possibly be saved too. Not entirely sure about that, but just a feeling I get from them. I have never asked them, but they seem pretty accepting of me for the most part. One couple actually said they wished they could leave, but felt they needed to stay because they didn't want to be cut off from family. I felt that was a sad reason to have to stay, but fully acknowledge they are likely right knowing their family. The thing is, if has become quite clear to me from my time on here, that other groups are every bit as exclusive in their beliefs. When they say the 2x2's aren't saved, or don't know God, etc. that seems very much like the same mentality at work. It amazes me a lot of the time, because all the denominations of Christianity worship the same God and the same Jesus, just their doctrines may vary a bit. I truly don't think doctrine or religion has anything to do with really. It's how we live with caring and love I believe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 18:13:59 GMT -5
Just to clarify, it is still the majority, just a smaller majority. I can picture your dad's devoutedness level. That is definitely a minority these days. They were more common in our parents' generation and my generation only has a relatively small minority who are bordering the conservative radical level. The younger generation is pretty cool. The young adult kids of the conservative radicals have mostly quit the meetings (for obvious reasons) and the kids who stay generally have parents who are moderates. Younger devotees (devoutees?) don't seem to have the same tough edge that the old ones had. These are general rules but of course there are always plenty of exceptions. Ok, I think I understand. I know that some of the young adults when I was a kid didn't seem to be so fanatic as my dad. I am friends still with some of them and they would be considered pretty liberal by my dad's standards, but possibly pretty 'average' by today's standards? I think they probably still hold the belief that their way is the right way, but also would acknowledge that other groups could possibly be saved too. Not entirely sure about that, but just a feeling I get from them. I have never asked them, but they seem pretty accepting of me for the most part. One couple actually said they wished they could leave, but felt they needed to stay because they didn't want to be cut off from family. I felt that was a sad reason to have to stay, but fully acknowledge they are likely right knowing their family. I think you have a pretty good sense of the 2x2 landscape and the generational changes. The part that you weren't sure about regarding some F&W's thinking other groups are ok, I would say is pretty rare for any of the friends to think that any other church is ok. What you will find is an increasing number of friends who are open to other individuals being ok with God but few would endorse any other church. In other words, there may be some saved people but they would be in the wrong church. The workers, on the other hand, are pretty unanimous that you have to hear the gospel from them in order to be saved.....unless it is impossible for you to meet up with a worker. The latter hardly exists because if there was a seeking soul almost anywhere in the world, it would be possible to get a worker to them today. Yep. Same mud, different puddle. Pure Christianity should eliminate the divisions but other things get in the way. I think a lot of divisions come from people with different personalities who see "truth" through a different prism than others. Some like a codified religion from a fundamentalist direction where everything is black and white. Others are more spiritual and like a charismatic type of viewpoint like the Pentecostal style. I think all those differences are fine because we are all unique individuals, but none of it should get in the way loving our neighbours as ourselves and refraining from judging anyone's present for future status with a deity.
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Post by applesandbacon on Jun 29, 2014 18:26:14 GMT -5
Our elder frequently makes statements like this. So do some of the others in our meeting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 18:32:00 GMT -5
Our elder frequently makes statements like this. So do some of the others in our meeting. We have one person who regularly slams the invalidity of other groups and "the world". Everyone else almost unanimously stays away from that practice. There is the occasional positive remark from the liberal end, but for the most part, it is silence either way.
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Post by snow on Jun 29, 2014 20:33:08 GMT -5
The common language used by many friends is "we don't like to judge people in other churches". However, in my experience, there are very few friends who will accept other Christian churches or the ministry in other Christian churches as either right or saved/potentially saved. It is simply a bridge too far. Understandably with workers (given the doctrine they preach) it is about a thousand bridges too far ie not possible. I don't accept that most protestant/evangelical/reformed churches are exclusive at all like the 2x2's or Exclusive Brethren/JW's etc (other high demand groups). You will find that people pray regularly in these churches for all other Christians and Christian churches throughout the world and there is no use of the language common to the 2x2's at all - language like "the truth", "glad we have found God's only true way" etc. I have recently been reading testimonies that have been written over the past few years for professing folk who have passed on. They are very similar to published sermons at worker funerals. There is a significant amount of focus on the fact that the person has found "God's only true way through the workers". In the testimonies I have read there is no mention of Christ at all but the true ministry is mentioned a number of times. I was not surprised to find this - it is consistent with the message we heard before we left. Would you say that these same churches you are talking about that are not supposedly as exclusive, would agree that the friends and workers are saved? I know of at least one person that posts here that seems to think they are not. I am wondering what some of the more 'traditional' churches believe about the Truth?
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Post by snow on Jun 29, 2014 21:26:21 GMT -5
Would you say that these same churches you are talking about that are not supposedly as exclusive, would agree that the friends and workers are saved? I know of at least one person that posts here that seems to think they are not. I am wondering what some of the more 'traditional' churches believe about the Truth? Firstly, most Christian churches who are not exclusive don't focus any time or energy on churches/sects who preach exclusive doctrine - they are not really on their radar. As I mentioned, they don't focus on "we are right - the others are wrong..." in their teaching. I have never heard this kind of language in our church. If asked, our ministers would simply say that if a person (including a minister) had placed their trust in Jesus for their salvation then Jesus would save them. Most protestant/evangelical/reformed churches have a problem with Catholic doctrine - in particular papal authority/infallibility, the authority of the church as an institution, role of priest, praying to saints/Mary etc. However, I have never heard in our church a minister say that a person in a Catholic church would not be saved. I don't recall the Catholic church being criticised publicly although occasionally a doctrinal point may be made and it is emphasised what the ministry believe - which may be quite different from the Catholic Church on a particular point. Probably the doctrine that is raised the most as not Biblical is the prosperity doctrine preached by some charismatic churches. Again, the doctrine is focused on - not the church or churches which preach it. Trust this gives more insight. Yes, it does Ross, thank you. Your church sounds like they are more focused on their own salvation and are not worried about determining other churches salvation. I have heard that about the Catholic church before. Protestant churches have a problem with papal infallibility, and I certainly can understand that. In that way the Truth and the Catholic Church have something in common. For many in the Truth, the workers definitely have spiritual authority over their members. Maybe not to the point of infallibility, but they do have power with some. I guess I still wonder what the traditional churches that believe that belief in the Trinity is important, feel about the salvation of churches that do not believe in the Trinity? Any insight into that for me?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 23:45:34 GMT -5
Our elder frequently makes statements like this. So do some of the others in our meeting. i think that in the last ten or so years i may have heard an other church mentioned once
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 0:00:54 GMT -5
I think you have a pretty good sense of the 2x2 landscape and the generational changes. The part that you weren't sure about regarding some F&W's thinking other groups are ok, I would say is pretty rare for any of the friends to think that any other church is ok. What you will find is an increasing number of friends who are open to other individuals being ok with God but few would endorse any other church. In other words, there may be some saved people but they would be in the wrong church. The workers, on the other hand, are pretty unanimous that you have to hear the gospel from them in order to be saved.....unless it is impossible for you to meet up with a worker. The latter hardly exists because if there was a seeking soul almost anywhere in the world, it would be possible to get a worker to them today. _______________________________________ I find the statement bolded statement above quite troubling Ross. It's the same mud and the only difference is that the puddle is larger.....the only difference. All you need to do is sniff around America for the mood of the evangelical Christians toward Muslims and you will find the exact same thing that you thought you left upon leaving the 2x2's. In some ways, what you have accepted is more deceptive and dangerous than anything the 2x2's have to offer, since exclusivity is, by your own description, considered non existent. At least the 2x2's understand the existence of their exclusivity and speak it outright. There is a certain honesty about that. Are you praying regularly for your Muslim brothers throughout the world? Or do you consider them all lost souls who haven't believed God's True Way?
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Post by fred on Jun 30, 2014 1:39:38 GMT -5
This is another shocking statement by a different elder , is this the common attitude among F&W? Recently, while discussing with a friend a Baptist man known to us both, I mentioned that he and his wife put some time aside each day to do some Bible study. He seemed quite surprised and somewhat bemused, saying, "I wonder what they get out of it." This would be a fairly typical reaction from many in the fellowship, a good indication of an exclusive stance.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 30, 2014 9:46:43 GMT -5
For some friends, the "Spirit" is the court of last resort when it comes to differentiating themselves from others. The thinking goes something like this, "You can't fault the Jones's, don't smoke or drink, don't have a TV, go to their church regularly, understand the Bible better than we do, and yet ... ". Wait for it. "They don't have the Spirit".
It makes me wonder what such people think the Spirit actually is. Somehow this view of the Spirit puts it into a tiny little box. The Spirit, or the Holy Spirit, if you will, as God's presence on the Earth, moving men and women's hearts, has to be more widespread than just the friends, more widespread than just the Bible, and more widespread than just Christianity. Otherwise, He is not much of a God, is He?
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Post by What Hat on Jun 30, 2014 9:51:22 GMT -5
This is another shocking statement by a different elder , is this the common attitude among F&W? Recently, while discussing with a friend a Baptist man known to us both, I mentioned that he and his wife put some time aside each day to do some Bible study. He seemed quite surprised and somewhat bemused, saying, "I wonder what they get out of it." This would be a fairly typical reaction from many in the fellowship, a good indication of an exclusive stance. I guess I wonder what he thinks he can get out of it, that they can't? Some kind of exalted oxygen only he can breathe? Any ideas?
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Post by applesandbacon on Jun 30, 2014 9:59:26 GMT -5
Our elder frequently makes statements like this. So do some of the others in our meeting. i think that in the last ten or so years i may have heard an other church mentioned once I have never heard another church mentioned specifically, but certainly they are mentioned generally as being false. Folks who don't come to meeting are referred to as "of the world" or "not of the truth". Statements are made such as, "God only cares about (particular town mentioned in the news where a tragedy happened) because there is a meeting there". We hear references to meeting goers being "God's chosen people" on a weekly basis. Maybe our area is exceptionally exclusive. I have heard that it is, but don't have enough experience with other areas to make that judgment.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 10:14:06 GMT -5
Re: what "others believe." Really have to just express for myself. Since in my understanding everyone answers for themselves, that simply is what I believe to be the answer regarding what anyone else believes. I make every attempt to share what I believe and why, ignoring only those experience has taught me to be scoffers, ridiculing type people who would turn and not only trample things of value to me beneath their feet, but do so also to me if they could. After that what another believes regarding what I believe to be true is no longer paramount to me.
Yes, I quote scripture as one of the reasons for what I believe, not the only reason for it. When/where I cannot understand what is written there, nor have any explanation for it which I can accept, I do not knowingly use it in the basis of/for what I express as true and/or part of the basis for what I believe true. It may have a meaning for someone else, so I leave it for them to explain any truth in it.
For me. It simply is not wise to attempt to explain what another perceives as true that has not been so revealed for myself. Snow, does this help you understand anything better about some of us who may believe in our God?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 10:29:11 GMT -5
Recently, while discussing with a friend a Baptist man known to us both, I mentioned that he and his wife put some time aside each day to do some Bible study. He seemed quite surprised and somewhat bemused, saying, "I wonder what they get out of it." This would be a fairly typical reaction from many in the fellowship, a good indication of an exclusive stance. I guess I wonder what he thinks he can get out of it, that they can't? Some kind of exalted oxygen only he can breathe? Any ideas? If I could read the minds of the F&Ws who would say that (and a large number of them would), I would say that one thing they are thinking is that if these bible readers are actually getting anything out of the bible, it will be an understanding about the homeless ministry, church in the home, and would be led to the workers. Otherwise, there can be nothing there for them if they aren't getting such a bedrock truth out of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 10:37:03 GMT -5
i think that in the last ten or so years i may have heard an other church mentioned once I have never heard another church mentioned specifically, but certainly they are mentioned generally as being false. Folks who don't come to meeting are referred to as "of the world" or "not of the truth". Statements are made such as, "God only cares about (particular town mentioned in the news where a tragedy happened) because there is a meeting there". We hear references to meeting goers being "God's chosen people" on a weekly basis. Maybe our area is exceptionally exclusive. I have heard that it is, but don't have enough experience with other areas to make that judgment. I think exclusivity is in the large majority wherever you go. The primary local differences would be how outspoken the people are. As I mentioned in another post, we have only one outspoken exclusivist, but there are some very strong exclusivists who don't talk about it like that, and the more moderate exclusivists don't practice the degradation of other believers either. I would suggest that the tone of an area will be greatly influenced by the presence of very few non-exclusivists. The exclusive belief is extremely weak regardless of its popularity so when a non-exclusivist is around, the exclusivists get very careful. A good test for this is to observe how your outspoken exclusivists talk directly to outsiders about their exclusive franchise to God. They will be very careful about it because they know deep down they don't have good support for the idea. A generation or two ago, some people were foolish enough to be outspoken about their exclusivity outside the meetings but the current generation has learned that it's not a good thing to do.
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Post by snow on Jun 30, 2014 11:17:56 GMT -5
Re: what "others believe." Really have to just express for myself. Since in my understanding everyone answers for themselves, that simply is what I believe to be the answer regarding what anyone else believes. I make every attempt to share what I believe and why, ignoring only those experience has taught me to be scoffers, ridiculing type people who would turn and not only trample things of value to me beneath their feet, but do so also to me if they could. After that what another believes regarding what I believe to be true is no longer paramount to me.
Yes, I quote scripture as one of the reasons for what I believe, not the only reason for it. When/where I cannot understand what is written there, nor have any explanation for it which I can accept, I do not knowingly use it in the basis of/for what I express as true and/or part of the basis for what I believe true. It may have a meaning for someone else, so I leave it for them to explain any truth in it.
For me. It simply is not wise to attempt to explain what another perceives as true that has not been so revealed for myself. Snow, does this help you understand anything better about some of us who may believe in our God?
Sort of I guess. I was more questioning what traditional churches felt about those who did not believe in the Trinity. At least that was my last question. Ross pretty much answered my first question about whether traditional churches feel 2x2's and other like minded denominations are saved. I would like to think that no one would say outright that a person isn't saved because of a different belief, but I have seen it done here.
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