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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 14, 2014 18:35:14 GMT -5
Thank you Mary.
Something just dawned on me when I saw that picture of the child holding up a man's severed head!
Isn't there somewhere in the bible (I Samuel:17 ?) an incident where a young lad named David killed a man named Goliath and then cut off the man's head?
Or am I just dreaming that?
I guess there are some things that never change. Seems to me you are remembering right dmg. I guess we know what role models they are emanating. This whole thing makes me sick. How can people be so brutal and unfeeling of each other? On the other hand, maybe I'm just glad I don't understand it. Not only how so brutal and unfeeling, but in David's case HE was doing the Lord's work! ( at least according to the Bible!)
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Post by Mary on Aug 14, 2014 18:51:43 GMT -5
There is no comparison. The Philistine army had gathered for war against Israel.
The guys in the picture are fighting and killing their own people.
Goliath was a Giant and David was small. Goliath was terrorising and challenging people. The people of Syria and Iraq are not. The people are not asking IS to challenge them.
You can justify such killings by comparing it with a few centuries ago but I thought the world had moved on from that - you seem stuck in a time warp.
Finally glad you take the story as fact and not as fable. I didn't think you took the Bible as truth or so seriously.
1 Samuel 17 David and Goliath - Story Summary:
The Philistine army had gathered for war against Israel. The two armies faced each other, camped for battle on opposite sides of a steep valley. A Philistine giant measuring over nine feet tall and wearing full armor came out each day for forty days, mocking and challenging the Israelites to fight. His name was Goliath. Saul, the King of Israel, and the whole army were terrified of Goliath. One day David, the youngest son of Jesse, was sent to the battle lines by his father to bring back news of his brothers. David was probably just a young teenager at the time. While there, David heard Goliath shouting his daily defiance and he saw the great fear stirred within the men of Israel. David responded, "Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of God?"
So David volunteered to fight Goliath. It took some persuasion, but King Saul finally agreed to let David fight against the giant. Dressed in his simple tunic, carrying his shepherd's staff, sling and a pouch full of stones, David approached Goliath. The giant cursed at him, hurling threats and insults.
David said to the Philistine, "You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied ... today I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds of the air ... and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel ... it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give all of you into our hands."
As Goliath moved in for the kill, David reached into his bag and slung one of his stones at Goliath's head. Finding a hole in the armor, the stone sank into the giant's forehead and he fell face down on the ground. David then took Goliath's sword, killed him and then cut off his head. When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran. So the Israelites pursued, chasing and killing them.
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Post by snow on Aug 14, 2014 19:18:55 GMT -5
There is no comparison. The Philistine army had gathered for war against Israel. The guys in the picture are fighting and killing their own people. Goliath was a Giant and David was small. Goliath was terrorising and challenging people. The people of Syria and Iraq are not. The people are not asking IS to challenge them. You can justify such killings by comparing it with a few centuries ago but I thought the world had moved on from that - you seem stuck in a time warp. Finally glad you take the story as fact and not as fable. I didn't think you took the Bible as truth or so seriously. 1 Samuel 17 David and Goliath - Story Summary: The Philistine army had gathered for war against Israel. The two armies faced each other, camped for battle on opposite sides of a steep valley. A Philistine giant measuring over nine feet tall and wearing full armor came out each day for forty days, mocking and challenging the Israelites to fight. His name was Goliath. Saul, the King of Israel, and the whole army were terrified of Goliath. One day David, the youngest son of Jesse, was sent to the battle lines by his father to bring back news of his brothers. David was probably just a young teenager at the time. While there, David heard Goliath shouting his daily defiance and he saw the great fear stirred within the men of Israel. David responded, "Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of God?" So David volunteered to fight Goliath. It took some persuasion, but King Saul finally agreed to let David fight against the giant. Dressed in his simple tunic, carrying his shepherd's staff, sling and a pouch full of stones, David approached Goliath. The giant cursed at him, hurling threats and insults. David said to the Philistine, "You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied ... today I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds of the air ... and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel ... it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give all of you into our hands." As Goliath moved in for the kill, David reached into his bag and slung one of his stones at Goliath's head. Finding a hole in the armor, the stone sank into the giant's forehead and he fell face down on the ground. David then took Goliath's sword, killed him and then cut off his head. When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran. So the Israelites pursued, chasing and killing them. I wasn't aware that beheading anyone in any century was appropriate.
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Post by Mary on Aug 14, 2014 19:45:11 GMT -5
If you didn't realise that we are supposed to live in a more civilised world then you need to take some lessons or start reading. What was appropriate in one era is not appropriate in another. Racism for example was considered acceptable in our parents day but not today.
And who said beheading was appropriate then or now? You seem to be justifying it by pointing to something that happened at one time in history.
I pointed out that there was a big difference between the incident of David and Goliath and what IS is doing to the citizens of Iraq and Syria today.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 14, 2014 21:31:44 GMT -5
There is no comparison. The Philistine army had gathered for war against Israel. The guys in the picture are fighting and killing their own people. Goliath was a Giant and David was small. Goliath was terrorising and challenging people. The people of Syria and Iraq are not. The people are not asking IS to challenge them. You can justify such killings by comparing it with a few centuries ago but I thought the world had moved on from that - you seem stuck in a time warp. Finally glad you take the story as fact and not as fable. I didn't think you took the Bible as truth or so seriously. 1 Samuel 17 David and Goliath - Story Summary: The Philistine army had gathered for war against Israel. The two armies faced each other, camped for battle on opposite sides of a steep valley. A Philistine giant measuring over nine feet tall and wearing full armor came out each day for forty days, mocking and challenging the Israelites to fight. His name was Goliath. Saul, the King of Israel, and the whole army were terrified of Goliath. One day David, the youngest son of Jesse, was sent to the battle lines by his father to bring back news of his brothers. David was probably just a young teenager at the time. While there, David heard Goliath shouting his daily defiance and he saw the great fear stirred within the men of Israel. David responded, "Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of God?" So David volunteered to fight Goliath. It took some persuasion, but King Saul finally agreed to let David fight against the giant. Dressed in his simple tunic, carrying his shepherd's staff, sling and a pouch full of stones, David approached Goliath. The giant cursed at him, hurling threats and insults. David said to the Philistine, "You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied ... today I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds of the air ... and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel ... it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give all of you into our hands." As Goliath moved in for the kill, David reached into his bag and slung one of his stones at Goliath's head. Finding a hole in the armor, the stone sank into the giant's forehead and he fell face down on the ground. David then took Goliath's sword, killed him and then cut off his head. When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran. So the Israelites pursued, chasing and killing them. Mary, how quickly people who are believers in the bible come so quickly to rescue it!
Doesn't matter how cruel the actions are.
You know I have read the whole chapter probably more than several times, so I did know what it said.
I wasn't in the 2X2's for half my life without learning something!
At one time I would have believed just as you do. We were spoon fed those explanations & I, for one, swallowed it whole,-no matter how big the spoon was or how crazy the stuff was.
That is what religions do! Feed people their dogma & the people believe it!
That is exactly the same as is what is happening in mid-east right NOW.
That is why religion is so invasive of one's mind and so very dangerous.
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Post by fixit on Aug 14, 2014 21:36:00 GMT -5
What happened thousands, or even hundreds, of years ago is no excuse for what IS is doing in the 21st century.
Cutting off heads and having kids hold them up as trophies is unacceptable.
So is putting heads on pikes and crucifying men, raping women and selling them into slavery, and bulldozing people into mass graves (while still alive in some cases I might add!).
Call it for what it is - evil and uncivilized.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 14, 2014 21:39:04 GMT -5
If you didn't realise that we are supposed to live in a more civilised world then you need to take some lessons or start reading. What was appropriate in one era is not appropriate in another. Racism for example was considered acceptable in our parents day but not today. And who said beheading was appropriate then or now? You seem to be justifying it by pointing to something that happened at one time in history. I pointed out that there was a big difference between the incident of David and Goliath and what IS is doing to the citizens of Iraq and Syria today. Some things are never "appropriate" doesn't matter what era.That is what religion does to one's ability to think.
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Post by Mary on Aug 14, 2014 21:43:50 GMT -5
I can assure you I am well educated with a master's degree and have not got there through not being able to think.
Your post shows ignorance or should I say arrogance. Christians are well able to think.
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Post by rational on Aug 14, 2014 22:59:24 GMT -5
They want the "siege" lifted so they can send their brainwashed kids out with suicide vests. Would you have said the same about these British children being trained during WWII?
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Post by fixit on Aug 14, 2014 23:09:04 GMT -5
Comparing modern Israel vs Palestinians with Nazi Germany vs Brits is interesting.
Do you think Israel should reduce the Palestinian population using death camps?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 14, 2014 23:49:32 GMT -5
I can assure you I am well educated with a master's degree and have not got there through not being able to think. Your post shows ignorance or should I say arrogance. Christians are well able to think. You now accuse me of "ignorance or arrogance?"
A well educated person should be able to see that an ad hominem attack is logical fallacy & often the last resort.
I did not accuse you of either ignorance nor arrogance.
I merely posted that religion affects one's way of thinking.
It doesn't matter how intelligent or educated one is.
I even admitted my own experience of how religion had affected my way of thinking.
That religion does affect people's way of thinking seems very obvious.
The fact that religion causes some people's way of thinking to be very irrational is also very obvious!
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Post by rational on Aug 14, 2014 23:53:01 GMT -5
Comparing modern Israel vs Palestinians with Nazi Germany vs Brits is interesting. Do you think Israel should reduce the Palestinian population using death camps? I didn't mention Nazi Germany. I was just pointing out that training children to kill the enemy is nothing new and not related to religious belief. In fact, it is sometimes only related to imagined enemies. Not sure how you got off to death camps.
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Post by Mary on Aug 15, 2014 0:10:03 GMT -5
So there are not some atheists who think irrationally, dmg? It is only religion that does that?
Do no atheists on this board think irrationally?
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Post by rational on Aug 15, 2014 0:11:30 GMT -5
What happened thousands, or even hundreds, of years ago is no excuse for what IS is doing in the 21st century. Cutting off heads and having kids hold them up as trophies is unacceptable. So is putting heads on pikes and crucifying men, raping women and selling them into slavery, and bulldozing people into mass graves (while still alive in some cases I might add!). Call it for what it is - evil and uncivilized. Perhaps we should call it war. In the bible David circumcised the enemy and then killed them, taking the foreskins as trophies. The same type of genital mutilation happens today, soldiers wearing necklaces of severed ears. And there are severed heads - on both sides of a conflict. It is not an excuse. Simply an illustration that war hasn't changed much over the millennia. Sure more people can be killed at a distance but if you look at the collateral damage there is not all that much difference. And, of course, communication with instant text and colorful photos feed paranoia and prejudice.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 15, 2014 0:13:46 GMT -5
It can get to be extremely difficult having a discussion about what is sin and what is not when discussing the issue with a Christian when one is Atheist. Sin doesn't exist in my world because of the religious connotation. If I choose to willfully violate another by word or deed, I have committed an offense against them. Sometimes this involves breaking the law, which at times may result in punishment under the law, be it monetary or imprisonment. Laws are often meant to teach us that crime doesn't pay. All of us have a sense of self worth. Most of us like living in peaceful society feeling safe from harm. At least I do. Therefore, my actions are such that I keep the peace with my neighbors and my family. I try to think from the standpoint that good and evil do not exist. If I violate in some way another human being, I live with the possibility of repercussions. If there are none, then I continue to follow the same patterns until I run up against a reason to change my mind or my ways. I learn what benefits my way of life either as a single individual or as a member of society. My actions are not because of morals or values handed down from "on high", but from the society in which I chose to live in peace with. This is not to say that I have no empathy or no emotional investment in the world around me. We each truly only answer to ourselves and the system of right/wrong we set for ourselves. Yes, I know our upbringing has a lot to say about what values we hold, but the point is that the society we live in most often sets those values. In my opinion, we learn most of our values/morals from personal experience. I do my best not to intentionally make another person feel badly about themselves because I know what that pain feels like. I admit that when I am thoroughly pissed that I sometimes think about saying mean things to pay a person back for the pain they have inflicted on me, but what I think and what I articulate... most thankfully... are most often two very different things! The bottom line is that if at the end of the day if I can look myself in the mirror and am happy with the person looking back at me, then I will sleep peacefully. Such is my life. It works for me. The modern (slippery) Christian definition of "sin" really is an evolved form of the original concept of "sin". It meant "to miss the mark" in some long forgotten past time. But as Christians used it and their so frequent misses of the Christian morality mark persisted they needed a noun for the situation one found himself in, so they called that "sin" too. If you want to "sin", commit a "sin" and then you will have "sinned". "Missing the mark" has now become the Christian euphemism for "sinning". BTW - I committed a great sin today. I turned left and drove half a mile down the wrong street. Right intersection, wrong angle of turn. And there were consequences for my sin -- man, do I get chewed out when she's one minute late for an appointment.
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Post by rational on Aug 15, 2014 0:26:36 GMT -5
I can assure you I am well educated with a master's degree and have not got there through not being able to think. Your post shows ignorance or should I say arrogance. Christians are well able to think. Can you tell us what in what area you earned your master's degree?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 15, 2014 0:26:42 GMT -5
So there are not some atheists who think irrationally, dmg? It is only religion that does that? Do no atheists on this board think irrationally? Atheism is actually the belief that there is no evidence for there being any supernatural or paranormal entity. Since there is no evidence any supernatural or paranormal entity that is very rational thinking.
I have yet to see any religious person show any rational proof that there is any supernatural or paranormal entity.
Whereas religions have so many different supernatural or paranormal beings that people have to choose which one of the many they believe is the TRUE supernatural or paranormal being.
Even when they decide, they still argue amongst themselves about all the supernatural or paranormal dogma of their chosen supernatural or paranormal being! That isn't very rational thinking!
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Post by rational on Aug 15, 2014 0:36:42 GMT -5
If Adam is not the one to blame for condemning all of mankind to hell who is? Eve or perhaps you will say God. I would say the humans who created the idea eternal damnation to hold over people as a way to subjugate them are the ones to blame.
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Post by Rob Sargison on Aug 15, 2014 0:39:43 GMT -5
As this message board attests, not all atheists are rational.
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Post by rational on Aug 15, 2014 0:48:24 GMT -5
No one is expecting someone to forgive us for our mistakes. It is our choice. You can call it a mistake, or what ever name you like. changing to name won't change it. Do you view someone who abuses their partner or a child as making a mistake? Do you view a drunk driver who kills someone as making a mistake? There is a big difference between someone who makes a mistake and someone who sins. I don't view making a mistake a sin. Calling it a mistake is minimising it. Somethings we do we do not do on purpose (making a mistake) and I do not call that a sin either. Do you call the IS terrorists as making a mistake? Sin is dependent on your belief(s). Someone abusing another is committing a crime. It could also be the result of an error in judgement. Someone driving drunk may well have made a mistake regarding their sobriety. Calling something a mistake identifies it. A mistake is an error in action and may be the result of any of a number of things. Calling it a sin does nothing - what you call a sin may not be considered a sin by, say, Fred.
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Post by rational on Aug 15, 2014 0:49:25 GMT -5
As this message board attests, not all atheists are rational. But all 'rationals' are atheists!
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 15, 2014 0:58:29 GMT -5
As this message board attests, not all atheists are rational. But all 'rationals' are atheists! You betcha!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 15, 2014 1:14:05 GMT -5
After all the anti-American propaganda and hand-wringing we've seen here, its time for something positive... Fact is, the US abandoned any effort to rescue the Yazizi in Iraq -- because they found the numbers were far fewer than the 10,000 supposed to be in danger, and the conditions not severe enough to warrant US intervention in their rescue. Kurd have helped them walk to safer environments. So now, the innocents in Gaza? Do we have them all rescued yet? My brother in law says they are all hanging out in the classy malls in Gaza dolling because Hamas blew up their houses.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 15, 2014 1:16:36 GMT -5
So there are not some atheists who think irrationally, dmg? It is only religion that does that? Do no atheists on this board think irrationally? I think it was rational thinking that made them atheists.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 15, 2014 1:33:24 GMT -5
Thank you Mary.
Something just dawned on me when I saw that picture of the child holding up a man's severed head!
Isn't there somewhere in the bible (I Samuel:17 ?) an incident where a young lad named David killed a man named Goliath and then cut off the man's head?
Or am I just dreaming that?
I guess there are some things that never change. Christians hate to be reminded that Muslims get a lot of that stuff from the Old Testament, not the Qur'an. But then, Christian fundamentalists have the same problem. The OT can justify about any bloodthirsty fantasy anyone can have.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 15, 2014 1:35:46 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Aug 15, 2014 5:35:58 GMT -5
After all the anti-American propaganda and hand-wringing we've seen here, its time for something positive... Fact is, the US abandoned any effort to rescue the Yazizi in Iraq -- because they found the numbers were far fewer than the 10,000 supposed to be in danger, and the conditions not severe enough to warrant US intervention in their rescue. Kurd have helped them walk to safer environments. So now, the innocents in Gaza? Do we have them all rescued yet? My brother in law says they are all hanging out in the classy malls in Gaza dolling because Hamas blew up their houses. The US, UK and Australia dropped supplies, and US air strikes drove the jihadists back which allowed the Kurds to rescue most of the Yazidis. There are innocents in every conflict. When the Gaza leadership comes to understand that firing rockets into Israel only causes them grief, then the rebuilding will start, and international donors will fund it.
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Post by snow on Aug 15, 2014 11:33:56 GMT -5
If you didn't realise that we are supposed to live in a more civilised world then you need to take some lessons or start reading. What was appropriate in one era is not appropriate in another. Racism for example was considered acceptable in our parents day but not today. And who said beheading was appropriate then or now? You seem to be justifying it by pointing to something that happened at one time in history. I pointed out that there was a big difference between the incident of David and Goliath and what IS is doing to the citizens of Iraq and Syria today. Not sure if you're responding to me or dmg. My comment was I never knew beheading was appropriate in any century. I don't see any difference in situations. Beheading is beheading and is not appropriate in any situation or time imo. David was just as wrong as any modern day jihadist. However, both probably felt the same thing. It is justified because they are doing it for their version of God.
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