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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 18:52:52 GMT -5
Believe me, I have read the quote many times. It is not true that I am "misrepresenting" Weinberg's words. I am simply representing my understanding of his words, and that understanding has not changed yet. I am understanding that he is meaning that only scientists attempting to understand the universe live lives which are not a farce. I am also understanding that he is implying that the lives of all (or most?) theists are farcical. You are understanding his words yet in the quote under consideration the word 'scientist' and 'theist' are not mentioned. Anyone can take the effort to understand the universe. Understanding the universe is simply a way to look beyond yourself. How do you know that that is what Weinberg means by that? It doesn't seem like he is trying to look beyond himself: “It does not matter whether you win or lose, what matters is whether I win or lose!”
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2014 18:57:20 GMT -5
"The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things...." Weinberg leaves unspecified the other things he sees as lifting human life above the level of farce. These other things presumably are distinct from "making an effort to understand the universe." Nowhere has he stated, or even implied, "only scientists." True. There is one or more other, unspecified things that lifts your life above farce. But what? I don't know what Weinberg would say. I am curious too. I can think of a thing or two I would probably include. But that would be me, not Weinberg.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 18:59:41 GMT -5
True. There is one or more other, unspecified things that lifts your life above farce. But what? I don't know what Weinberg would say. I am curious too. I can think of a thing or two I would probably include. But that would be me, not Weinberg. Somehow though, I suspect the effort to understand theology would not be one of them.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2014 19:00:26 GMT -5
It doesn't seem like he is trying to look beyond himself: “It does not matter whether you win or lose, what matters is whether I win or lose!” You did not share the source of all of those quotes your rolled out earlier that included this one. I have a strong suspicion that you are taking his words out of context.
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Post by rational on Apr 28, 2014 19:04:43 GMT -5
How do you know that that is what Weinberg means by that? I read the words he wrote in the quote being discussed. To understand the universe you need to look beyond yourself. Unless, of course, you want to redefine the universe as being the individual. But I am quite certain that the words 'scientist' or 'theist' were not mentioned or implied. Are you introducing an additional quote that is related to this one or just a quote that was written by the same author? I would think that the context would matter.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2014 19:10:35 GMT -5
I don't know what Weinberg would say. I am curious too. I can think of a thing or two I would probably include. But that would be me, not Weinberg. Somehow though, I suspect the effort to understand theology would not be one of them. :) I don't know. Possibly some of the more poetic and metaphorical aspects. But I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 19:13:02 GMT -5
It doesn't seem like he is trying to look beyond himself: “It does not matter whether you win or lose, what matters is whether I win or lose!” You did not share the source of all of those quotes your rolled out earlier that included this one. I have a strong suspicion that you are taking his words out of context. Possible but I don't have the context. These are his most widely spread quotes that can be found on many quote sites. By quoting him with those quotes only, I am assuming that most people agree that the quotes can stand up well by themselves. www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/86758.Steven_Weinbergen.wikiquote.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 19:14:41 GMT -5
How do you know that that is what Weinberg means by that? I read the words he wrote in the quote being discussed. To understand the universe you need to look beyond yourself. Unless, of course, you want to redefine the universe as being the individual. But I am quite certain that the words 'scientist' or 'theist' were not mentioned or implied. Well, I'm sure your guess is as good as anyone's. [/quote] Same author. Context does matter, but I was under the impression that it didn't matter to you when we started this rather inane "Universe"/"Earth" discussion. I was also surprised at how self-focused Mr.Weinberg appears to be from his own words.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2014 19:16:37 GMT -5
You did not share the source of all of those quotes your rolled out earlier that included this one. I have a strong suspicion that you are taking his words out of context. Possible but I don't have the context. These are his most widely spread quotes that can be found on many quote sites. By quoting him with those quotes only, I am assuming that most people agree that the quotes can stand up well by themselves. www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/86758.Steven_Weinbergen.wikiquote.org/wiki/Steven_WeinbergI don't assume that quotes stand up well by themselves, no matter how many quote sites carry them! But thanks, I will check these out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 19:20:28 GMT -5
I don't assume that quotes stand up well by themselves, no matter how many quote sites carry them! But thanks, I will check these out. Actually, I cited most of them except for two or three that didn't seem applicable to the discussion. I find that the general consensus of quotes like this is that they are widely considered meaningful all by themselves by revealing some snippet of easily understood wisdom. I am sure context and more information would reveal more. There are already multiple opinions here on what is meant by one of his quotes.
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Post by rational on Apr 28, 2014 19:34:02 GMT -5
Same author. Context does matter, but I was under the impression that it didn't matter to you when we started this rather inane "Universe"/"Earth" discussion. As I stated before, I respond to the text that is posted.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2014 19:42:14 GMT -5
I don't assume that quotes stand up well by themselves, no matter how many quote sites carry them! But thanks, I will check these out. This clip from an interview of Steven Weinberg includes some of the quotes you shared earlier.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 20:04:38 GMT -5
Same author. Context does matter, but I was under the impression that it didn't matter to you when we started this rather inane "Universe"/"Earth" discussion. As I stated before, I respond to the text that is posted. I know.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 20:14:19 GMT -5
I don't assume that quotes stand up well by themselves, no matter how many quote sites carry them! But thanks, I will check these out. This clip from an interview of Steven Weinberg includes some of the quotes you shared earlier. Yes, my quotes include most of that clip. I get the sense that he himself has been personally hurt badly by religion. He admits his outright hostility toward religion in general as well as toward the image of God that he sees portrayed in the bible. He states only that religion causes people to do bad things which simply isn't entirely true because good has come out of religion, so there must be some personal trauma lurking there in his psyche somewhere. That level of hostility just doesn't typically come from the intellect which is much more analytical and unemotional. As I write this, I'm starting to feel sorry for him as there is a good chance that he has personally been a victim of religious-related abuse.
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Post by rational on Apr 28, 2014 20:49:29 GMT -5
This clip from an interview of Steven Weinberg includes some of the quotes you shared earlier. Yes, my quotes include most of that clip. I get the sense that he himself has been personally hurt badly by religion. He admits his outright hostility toward religion in general as well as toward the image of God that he sees portrayed in the bible. He states only that religion causes people to do bad things which simply isn't entirely true because good has come out of religion, so there must be some personal trauma lurking there in his psyche somewhere. That level of hostility just doesn't typically come from the intellect which is much more analytical and unemotional. As I write this, I'm starting to feel sorry for him as there is a good chance that he has personally been a victim of religious-related abuse. Or it could be that he sees the damage that religion has caused and thinks it is time to move forward and mitigate ongoing damage.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2014 20:59:55 GMT -5
This clip from an interview of Steven Weinberg includes some of the quotes you shared earlier. Yes, my quotes include most of that clip. I get the sense that he himself has been personally hurt badly by religion. He admits his outright hostility toward religion in general as well as toward the image of God that he sees portrayed in the bible. He states only that religion causes people to do bad things which simply isn't entirely true because good has come out of religion, so there must be some personal trauma lurking there in his psyche somewhere. That level of hostility just doesn't typically come from the intellect which is much more analytical and unemotional. As I write this, I'm starting to feel sorry for him as there is a good chance that he has personally been a victim of religious-related abuse. Wow. More misquotes. He said, "only religion causes good people to do bad things." (my emphasis) You have dreamed up a lot of things about Steven Weinberg. I don't follow your reasoning.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 21:03:26 GMT -5
Quote - "only religion causes good people to do bad things."
This is intellectually vacuous. It doesn't even respect intellectual discussion.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2014 21:15:55 GMT -5
I don't assume that quotes stand up well by themselves, no matter how many quote sites carry them! But thanks, I will check these out. So far, I have not been able to locate an original source for the quote attributed to Weinberg on various "quote" sites, “It does not matter whether you win or lose, what matters is whether I win or lose!” In fact, some of the sites that carry this quote attribute it to someone named "Darrin Weinberg."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 21:18:21 GMT -5
Yes, my quotes include most of that clip. I get the sense that he himself has been personally hurt badly by religion. He admits his outright hostility toward religion in general as well as toward the image of God that he sees portrayed in the bible. He states only that religion causes people to do bad things which simply isn't entirely true because good has come out of religion, so there must be some personal trauma lurking there in his psyche somewhere. That level of hostility just doesn't typically come from the intellect which is much more analytical and unemotional. As I write this, I'm starting to feel sorry for him as there is a good chance that he has personally been a victim of religious-related abuse. Wow. More misquotes. He said, "only religion causes good people to do bad things." (my emphasis) You have dreamed up a lot of things about Steven Weinberg. I don't follow your reasoning. I didn't make any actual quotes or intended to do so, just paraphrasing what I understand to be his meanings. First of all, it is false of him to say that "only religion" causes good (or even bad) people to do bad things. Lots of other things cause good (and bad) people to do bad things......addictions for instance, greed for another. Secondly, he does not recognize or acknowledge that religion actually does cause both good and bad people to do good things. He does acknowledge that some of the bad stuff is fairly mild (just paraphrasing not quoting here), but the fact that he sees no positive value in religion tells me that his hostility has overcome his reasoning ability. Does any of this make sense?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 21:20:05 GMT -5
Yes, my quotes include most of that clip. I get the sense that he himself has been personally hurt badly by religion. He admits his outright hostility toward religion in general as well as toward the image of God that he sees portrayed in the bible. He states only that religion causes people to do bad things which simply isn't entirely true because good has come out of religion, so there must be some personal trauma lurking there in his psyche somewhere. That level of hostility just doesn't typically come from the intellect which is much more analytical and unemotional. As I write this, I'm starting to feel sorry for him as there is a good chance that he has personally been a victim of religious-related abuse. Or it could be that he sees the damage that religion has caused and thinks it is time to move forward and mitigate ongoing damage. The problem is that he sees only damage and no good is acknowledged at all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 21:32:00 GMT -5
I don't assume that quotes stand up well by themselves, no matter how many quote sites carry them! But thanks, I will check these out. So far, I have not been able to locate an original source for the quote attributed to Weinberg on various "quote" sites, “It does not matter whether you win or lose, what matters is whether I win or lose!” In fact, some of the sites that carry this quote attribute it to someone named "Darrin Weinberg." That quote does seem out of place alright.
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Post by rational on Apr 28, 2014 21:41:31 GMT -5
Quote - " only religion causes good people to do bad things." This is intellectually vacuous. It doesn't even respect intellectual discussion.This is only a fragment of the quote that was posted to illustrate how it had been misquoted. It would be much like me quoting you as having said "doesn't even respect"
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2014 21:45:52 GMT -5
I didn't make any actual quotes or intended to do so, just paraphrasing what I understand to be his meanings. I would recommend that you make it clearer to the reader that you are paraphrasing - something like you do below in parentheses. I was interpreting him as meaning that religion labels some things "good" that are not so good and draws good people in. I say this because the original context of the quote was slavery in the U.S.. Lots of good people back then truly believed that the Bible endorsed it. It doesn't matter that a few Christians were part of the early movement to abolish slavery. It doesn't matter how today you spin the Bible verses that refer to slavery. The majority of good Christians back then thought a "thumbs up" for slavery was right there in black and white. Some good people I knew growing up, still believed this into the 1970's. Their reasoning was based on racist premises, but had the form of "Christian compassion." (taking care of people who "weren't capable of taking care of themselves," bringing "savages" to Christ, etc.) It is consistent with what I understand your framework of understanding to be. I don't agree with you.
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Post by xna on Apr 28, 2014 21:51:17 GMT -5
I don't assume that quotes stand up well by themselves, no matter how many quote sites carry them! But thanks, I will check these out. So far, I have not been able to locate an original source for the quote attributed to Weinberg on various "quote" sites, “It does not matter whether you win or lose, what matters is whether I win or lose!” In fact, some of the sites that carry this quote attribute it to someone named "Darrin Weinberg." In this video interview he says there is some good from religion, but on balance he thinks will be better off without it. youtu.be/EGL8SesIo6Y Times stamps 1:04:00 to 1:08:00
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 28, 2014 22:47:33 GMT -5
Yes, my quotes include most of that clip. I get the sense that he himself has been personally hurt badly by religion. He admits his outright hostility toward religion in general as well as toward the image of God that he sees portrayed in the bible. He states only that religion causes people to do bad things which simply isn't entirely true because good has come out of religion, so there must be some personal trauma lurking there in his psyche somewhere. That level of hostility just doesn't typically come from the intellect which is much more analytical and unemotional. As I write this, I'm starting to feel sorry for him as there is a good chance that he has personally been a victim of religious-related abuse. Wow. More misquotes. He said, "only religion causes good people to do bad things." (my emphasis) You have dreamed up a lot of things about Steven Weinberg. I don't follow your reasoning. Good catch, matisse.
It is Quite difficult to follow CD's reasoning.
Especially when he starts misquoting you and then insists that YOU should be the one to make an apology for a statement that you never made to begin with!
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2014 22:59:37 GMT -5
Yes, my quotes include most of that clip. I get the sense that he himself has been personally hurt badly by religion. He admits his outright hostility toward religion in general as well as toward the image of God that he sees portrayed in the bible. He states only that religion causes people to do bad things which simply isn't entirely true because good has come out of religion, so there must be some personal trauma lurking there in his psyche somewhere. That level of hostility just doesn't typically come from the intellect which is much more analytical and unemotional. As I write this, I'm starting to feel sorry for him as there is a good chance that he has personally been a victim of religious-related abuse. Wow. More misquotes. He said, "only religion causes good people to do bad things." (my emphasis) I didn't do much better than you "quoting" off the top of my head....there are a couple of versions reported in the Wiki article about Weinberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg) In a speech in 1999: "'Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." He modified his comment in a later article derived from these talks: "Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery as the punishment of the children of Ham. Mark Twain described his mother as a genuinely good person, whose soft heart pitied even Satan, but who had no doubt about the legitimacy of slavery, because in years of living in antebellum Missouri she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion."
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 28, 2014 23:25:56 GMT -5
Matisse, Thanks of The video of Steven Weinberg you posted.
Putting a god ahead of humanity often does cause good people who would otherwise be kind and compassionate generous people to do terrible things simple because they think it is GOD's will.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 23:35:59 GMT -5
I didn't make any actual quotes or intended to do so, just paraphrasing what I understand to be his meanings. I would recommend that you make it clearer to the reader that you are paraphrasing - something like you do below in parentheses. When I quote, I put it in "quotation marks". If there are no "quotation marks", there is no quote. The parentheses certainly do have their values. Of course, and that example has some small degree of merit, except that slavery was never a religious invention and the earliest abolitionists were two Jewish religious groups....the Essenes and the Therapeutae. And as I mentioned, Wilberforce, one of the most important of all abolitionists of modern times was deeply religious and sought abolition because of his religiously-informed conscience. His statement is a gross oversimplification of the slavery picture and certainly does not represent it well. His comments do apply to a corrupt Catholic Church which condoned it in medieval times until other forces of religious conscience overcame the corruption. But he still ignores that religion has a long history of helping good people do good things and bad people doing good things, even if it has not always succeeded in that. Actually, if he had used the phrase "religious institutions" instead of "religion", I would have plenty to agree with him.
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