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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 8:40:32 GMT -5
Mr Weinberg's cynicism seems boundless. He thinks human life is farcical and at its best, tragic. And he states "The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless." I doubt he would be a fun guy at a party! It is possible that he would not be much fun for you at a party! Here is some context for the Weinberg quote xna shared: Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery as the punishment of the children of Ham. Mark Twain described his mother as a genuinely good person, whose soft heart pitied even Satan, but who had no doubt about the legitimacy of slavery, because in years of living in antebellum Missouri she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion. -Steven Weinberg Probably true, considering his bias to a limited view of both religion and that life is a farce. The truth is, religion defined the very evil he doesn't like but that he attributes to religion causing! One purpose of religion is to delineate good and evil, then point people to good. Without religion, there would be no evil, but a very inhospitable world. I just wonder how many people would get some chuckles from a guy at a party telling them their life is a farce?
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 27, 2014 8:45:02 GMT -5
Evil may been done by atheist but not just because they are atheist. In your examples It was not because they had no religion but their dogmatic views became their religion.
I think you make a good point, xna. Evil may be done by people of ANY stripe, religious or not. Pointing out that atheists, like Stalin or ...... murdered etc. , does NOT prove that "atheists" are evil or promote murder. Likewise, the same about Christians, or....... If the TEACHING of whatever group you belong to , is that you are supposed to murder or HATE or do whatever evil...., then it bears the responsibility , if it's members practice that teaching. I was encouraged by the chastisement that fellow atheists gave Dawkins and his "religious" followers, that although they were atheists and in agreement with him in many areas, they did NOT appreciate and support his "religion of hate" (paraphrased) towards religion , which ironically, is a religion of it's own. Alvin Alvin
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Post by matisse on Apr 27, 2014 9:03:32 GMT -5
I just wonder how many people would get some chuckles from a guy at a party telling them their life is a farce? How about we pause for a moment and quote Weinberg, instead of continuing with your misrepresentation of his words: The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things which lifts human life a little above the level of farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy.-Steven Weinberg The First Three Minutes (1993)
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Post by matisse on Apr 27, 2014 9:19:46 GMT -5
The universe is indifferent to mankind. Want a purpose in life - go make your own. youtu.be/Tvz0mmF6NW4Most scientists would probably state that the universe is reacting to mankind, such as in climate change and genetic engineering. The universe is "reacting" to humankind in a simple "action/reaction" sense, or "action/natural consequence" sense. There is no evidence that the universe has any emotional investment in human beings. Many human beings, on the other hand, have a huge emotional investment in the idea that something out there in the universe "cares!"
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Post by xna on Apr 27, 2014 9:30:43 GMT -5
It is possible that he would not be much fun for you at a party! I just wonder how many people would get some chuckles from a guy at a party telling them their life is a farce? --------------------- Life is what you make of it. Unless you are famous or infamous, your life will be remembered for only about - plus or minus three generations. Consider that, many people know their father, their grandfather, and some have known their great grandfather. You know your kids, and your grandkids, and some may live to know their great grandkids. That's plus or minus three generations. Beyond that you are a just another name among the billions. If you are an atheist, then this life is your only chance to make a difference, so you make the most of it, as best you can. If you believe in an afterlife, this life is just a momentary dress rehearsal / testing ground for the more important eternal life. You see this kind of thinking with Mother Teresa. Her concern was the afterlife, and not their suffering.
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Post by rational on Apr 27, 2014 9:56:21 GMT -5
Clearday! I never made such a statement!
You keep on repeating that lie! this: "That kind of speech has also resulted in the death in the LGBT ( liesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) community" followed by this: 'Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing." leads one to believe you meant Christians were most often killing homosexuals..whether or not you like that is not relevant Perhaps this would be the case if English was your second or third language. "Often" does not equal "most". The first phrase does not contain the word most and no where is it implied that the majority of the killings were committed by bible believers. Of course, another route would be to provide some evidence that non-believers are doing the majority of the killing. But all of this becomes moot as the definition of terms are twisted in a vain attempt avoid having to say that the quote was wrong. Christians pointed out as being against homosexuals turn out to be the wrong kind of christians and bible believer takes on a wide variety of meanings.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 10:18:23 GMT -5
I just wonder how many people would get some chuckles from a guy at a party telling them their life is a farce? How about we pause for a moment and quote Weinberg, instead of continuing with your misrepresentation of his words: The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things which lifts human life a little above the level of farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy.-Steven Weinberg The First Three Minutes (1993)Weinburg is stating that unless you are trying to "understand the universe" (whatever that means), your life is a farce. And if you are trying to understand the universe, your life is barely above being a farce. That sounds like a farcical statement in itself and certainly a cynical one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 10:21:58 GMT -5
Most scientists would probably state that the universe is reacting to mankind, such as in climate change and genetic engineering. The universe is "reacting" to humankind in a simple "action/reaction" sense, or "action/natural consequence" sense. There is no evidence that the universe has any emotional investment in human beings. Many human beings, on the other hand, have a huge emotional investment in the idea that something out there in the universe "cares!" Most environmentalists will state that human beings are "hurting" the earth. Are they are being a bit emotional about it?
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Post by snow on Apr 27, 2014 10:32:09 GMT -5
Xna, I don't know how to copy the graphic of one Butterfly McQueen here. Re her philosophy: Interesting but hardly original philosophy. It's premised upon the idea that life is an accident and has no purpose. Nihilism and narcissism are the rule of the day. One wonders what sort of world we will have if and when this triumphs. In the 20th Century over 85% of all man's inhumanity to man had secular causes. We might like to consider this when it comes to blaming God for man's behavior. (If China and Indo China remained Buddhist, and Russia remained Orthodox that alone would have saved over 100 million lives.) If we focused less on an afterlife, we would likely focus more on what we can do in this life. Humanists are doing just that. They are attempting to make life much better for humanity 'while still alive'. More and more people believe this is important and while there are some that lag behind and like to control people, they are not the majority. We are slowly becoming a more aware society that values life in the present and doesn't sit around waiting to die to get the 'good life'.
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Post by xna on Apr 27, 2014 10:39:05 GMT -5
Xna, I don't know how to copy the graphic of one Butterfly McQueen here. Re her philosophy: Interesting but hardly original philosophy. It's premised upon the idea that life is an accident and has no purpose. Nihilism and narcissism are the rule of the day. One wonders what sort of world we will have if and when this triumphs. In the 20th Century over 85% of all man's inhumanity to man had secular causes. We might like to consider this when it comes to blaming God for man's behavior. (If China and Indo China remained Buddhist, and Russia remained Orthodox that alone would have saved over 100 million lives.) If we focused less on an afterlife, we would likely focus more on what we can do in this life. Humanists are doing just that. They are attempting to make life much better for humanity 'while still alive'. More and more people believe this is important and while there are some that lag behind and like to control people, they are not the majority. We are slowly becoming a more aware society that values life in the present and doesn't sit around waiting to die to get the 'good life'.
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Post by rational on Apr 27, 2014 10:42:35 GMT -5
The universe is "reacting" to humankind in a simple "action/reaction" sense, or "action/natural consequence" sense. There is no evidence that the universe has any emotional investment in human beings. Many human beings, on the other hand, have a huge emotional investment in the idea that something out there in the universe "cares!" Most environmentalists will state that human beings are "hurting" the earth. Are they are being a bit emotional about it? Inaccurate would be a better term. Humans might be changing the earth and making it a less hospitable place for them to exist but that could hardly be considered hurting the earth.
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Post by Lee on Apr 27, 2014 10:46:32 GMT -5
Lee and rational, ask yourselves a very simple question "what did Jesus teach about hating or killing your neighbour". Then ask yourself "who did Jesus teach your neighbour is". Then, give your heads a little shake, and ask yourself "am I promoting hate or love to my neighbour " Alvin Jesus worked for God first, not man. If he was lovey-dovey with the average sinner it was because he had bigger fish to fry: false religion, greed, atheism, and their paradigm.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 10:53:11 GMT -5
Most environmentalists will state that human beings are "hurting" the earth. Are they are being a bit emotional about it? Inaccurate would be a better term. Humans might be changing the earth and making it a less hospitable place for them to exist but that could hardly be considered hurting the earth. Can you prove that the elements of the earth are not being hurt? Can animals not be hurt?
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Post by snow on Apr 27, 2014 10:54:41 GMT -5
Lee and rational, ask yourselves a very simple question "what did Jesus teach about hating or killing your neighbour". Then ask yourself "who did Jesus teach your neighbour is". Then, give your heads a little shake, and ask yourself "am I promoting hate or love to my neighbour " Alvin Jesus worked for God first, not man. If he was lovey-dovey with the average sinner it was because he had bigger fish to fry: false religion, greed, atheism, and their paradigm. What exactly are you saying? That there is no need for you to love anyone that does not believe in god? How would you attract people to your god if you behave in such a manner that no one would want to believe what you believe? Love is important whether you believe in god or not.
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Post by Lee on Apr 27, 2014 11:27:18 GMT -5
Jesus' love for sinners must be reconciled with his understanding that big sinners require little sinners to sin largely.
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Post by snow on Apr 27, 2014 11:30:32 GMT -5
Jesus' love for sinners must be reconciled with his understanding that big sinners require little sinners to sin largely. What?? Ok I will give this a shot at translation. Does this mean that 'little sinners' who I presume you are referring to yourself here, can only sin against 'big sinner's which I am presuming are atheists? That makes no sense.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 27, 2014 12:33:26 GMT -5
Give us some more "clues" to the puzzles , Lee, what you mean? I am a little overweight , tipping the scale at around 215 pounds or so. I presume I qualify as a "big sinner" or? Alvin
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Post by matisse on Apr 27, 2014 12:51:23 GMT -5
Inaccurate would be a better term. Humans might be changing the earth and making it a less hospitable place for them to exist but that could hardly be considered hurting the earth. Can you prove that the elements of the earth are not being hurt? Can animals not be hurt? Your questions do not make a lot of sense to me. There is no evidence that this magma-filled planet, with its tectonic plates and oceans and weather systems gives a flying rip about what forms of life take up residence on it and whether these survive or not. One big enough belch of soot from a volcano, or collision with an asteroid and life as we know it as humans (including many other living things) would quickly end - There is evidence of the mass extinctions of many forms of life taking place even before homo sapiens evolved as a species. There are no guarantees that something of these proportions will not happen again. There is no evidence that such natural disasters are "personally directed." In the absence of life-destroying natural disasters, humans presently survive as part of an interdependent web of living things and natural resources that exist at this point in time. It is in the interest of our survival as a species (our children and our children's children) to pay attention to how we conduct ourselves here. If collectively we want to survive as a species, we might be wise to expand the concept of "neighbor" to include other living things besides humans. It is also possible, IMO, that humans will self-destruct.
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Post by Gene on Apr 27, 2014 13:25:13 GMT -5
Give us some more "clues" to the puzzles , Lee, what you mean? I am a little overweight , tipping the scale at around 215 pounds or so. I presume I qualify as a "big sinner" or? Alvin Well, I suppose obesity is one of those 'morality diseases' that Wally referred to earlier on this thread. Sinner.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 27, 2014 13:53:15 GMT -5
Clearday! I never made such a statement!
You keep on repeating that lie! Some lie. I will get it exactly correct the next time instead of paraphrasing so I apologize profusely for not cutting and pasting what means the same thing. You actually said this: "Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing."It is a false and prejudicial statement. You and your mentor can't wiggle around this with more false claims of "lying". And then you have the unmitigated gall to accuse Wally of exactly what you are doing. It isn't paraphrasing when you use an entirely different word. It is known as lieing. You kept using "Christians" instead of what I actually said, "Bible Believers", in my quote.
That isn't paraphrasing, that is deceitful, that is dishonest,
I would have quit talkng to you long ago but my integrity means a lot to me & I didn't want people believing your lies about me. I have pulled up my original post where I made the statement.
I am re-post it. Then I will not answer you again.
22 Apr 2014 at 23:47 emy said:
"In fact, people who are honestly doing "God's work" would not murder." 23 Apr 2014 at 00:07 I said:
"Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing.
And it certainly doesn't help any when they keep repeating the the kind of hate that wally spouts."
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Post by Gene on Apr 27, 2014 13:55:56 GMT -5
I almost forgot about that argument. I think, at least, we can all agree, that the title of this thread is true and correct. It definitely is not about Herman. Who is Herman anyhow? Was he a morality sinner or was he the immoral sinner that started this all or? That sinner, anyhoooooooooooo Alvin Herman Beaber. Former worker, labored in the Philippines; civilian prisoner of war during WWII; uncle (by marriage) of Cherie Kropp (Herman's wife, Blanche, was a Berry, sister of Cherie's father); lived in Dallas for many years (where I knew him, personally); great man. See a website devoted to the memory of Herman Beaber: ithascome.bravehost.com/
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 27, 2014 14:23:09 GMT -5
Apology for any disrespect to Herman. I am sorry. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 16:41:49 GMT -5
Some lie. I will get it exactly correct the next time instead of paraphrasing so I apologize profusely for not cutting and pasting what means the same thing. You actually said this: "Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing."It is a false and prejudicial statement. You and your mentor can't wiggle around this with more false claims of "lying". And then you have the unmitigated gall to accuse Wally of exactly what you are doing. It isn't paraphrasing when you use an entirely different word. It is known as lieing. You kept using "Christians" instead of what I actually said, "Bible Believers", in my quote.
That isn't paraphrasing, that is deceitful, that is dishonest,
I would have quit talkng to you long ago but my integrity means a lot to me & I didn't want people believing your lies about me. I have pulled up my original post where I made the statement.
I am re-post it. Then I will not answer you again.
22 Apr 2014 at 23:47 emy said:
"In fact, people who are honestly doing "God's work" would not murder." 23 Apr 2014 at 00:07 I said:
"Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing.
And it certainly doesn't help any when they keep repeating the the kind of hate that wally spouts."
Do you not understand that the only bible believers are Christians? Bible believers = Christians. No, Jews are not bible believers. They are Tanakh believers. Similarly with Muslims who are Koran believers. There are no others even close. Christians are the only bible believers. Bible believers are Christians. If you are still not sure why this is true, please ask and I will explain it. This is religion 101 and you are calling me a liar? Now if you have an ounce of integrity, you will withdraw your false accusation of lying.
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Post by rational on Apr 27, 2014 16:56:39 GMT -5
Inaccurate would be a better term. Humans might be changing the earth and making it a less hospitable place for them to exist but that could hardly be considered hurting the earth. Can you prove that the elements of the earth are not being hurt? Can animals not be hurt? before you start: earth - the planet on which we live; the world.element - one of the basic substances that are made of atoms of only one kind and that cannot be separated by ordinary chemical means into simpler substances.hurt - to damage or decrease the efficiency of (a material object) by striking, rough use, improper care, etc.I didn't make any claim regarding the elements. If you can demonstrate that elements are being hurt - have at it. I said that humans might be changing the earth but they are not hurting it. Animals are not part of the earth any more than a person riding in a car is part of the car.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 17:09:02 GMT -5
Can you prove that the elements of the earth are not being hurt? Can animals not be hurt? before you start: earth - the planet on which we live; the world.element - one of the basic substances that are made of atoms of only one kind and that cannot be separated by ordinary chemical means into simpler substances.hurt - to damage or decrease the efficiency of (a material object) by striking, rough use, improper care, etc.I didn't make any claim regarding the elements. If you can demonstrate that elements are being hurt - have at it. I said that humans might be changing the earth but they are not hurting it. Animals are not part of the earth any more than a person riding in a car is part of the car. The discussion, before you entered, actually started out with "universe". I am surprised that you don't consider cats and horses as part of the universe or the "earth". I suppose you exclude plants, fish and bacteria as part of the earth/world. Who knows what definition you want to make up.....maybe just the soil only which can be justified by some definitions, but it's a great way to get around the issue!
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Post by Gene on Apr 27, 2014 18:11:59 GMT -5
Apology for any disrespect to Herman. I am sorry. Alvin Aw, Alvin, no disrespect perceived, as none intended! Love you, brother - Gene
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 27, 2014 18:12:44 GMT -5
It isn't paraphrasing when you use an entirely different word. It is known as lieing. You kept using "Christians" instead of what I actually said, "Bible Believers", in my quote.
That isn't paraphrasing, that is deceitful, that is dishonest,
I would have quit talkng to you long ago but my integrity means a lot to me & I didn't want people believing your lies about me. I have pulled up my original post where I made the statement.
I am re-post it. Then I will not answer you again.
22 Apr 2014 at 23:47 emy said:
"In fact, people who are honestly doing "God's work" would not murder." 23 Apr 2014 at 00:07 I said:
"Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing.
And it certainly doesn't help any when they keep repeating the the kind of hate that wally spouts."
Do you not understand that the only bible believers are Christians? Bible believers = Christians. No, Jews are not bible believers. They are Tanakh believers. Similarly with Muslims who are Koran believers. There are no others even close. Christians are the only bible believers. Bible believers are Christians. If you are still not sure why this is true, please ask and I will explain it. This is religion 101 and you are calling me a liar? Now if you have an ounce of integrity, you will withdraw your false accusation of lying. NO MORE DIALOGUE.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 18:23:46 GMT -5
Do you not understand that the only bible believers are Christians? Bible believers = Christians. No, Jews are not bible believers. They are Tanakh believers. Similarly with Muslims who are Koran believers. There are no others even close. Christians are the only bible believers. Bible believers are Christians. If you are still not sure why this is true, please ask and I will explain it. This is religion 101 and you are calling me a liar? Now if you have an ounce of integrity, you will withdraw your false accusation of lying. NO MORE DIALOGUE. If you are going to keep your word this time, I would recommend going to my profile, click on the little gear icon on the top right hand corner and click "Block member".
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