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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 18:18:07 GMT -5
what a sad testimony...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 18:24:51 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on 19 hours ago(amended)
I guess this is for me. It came from a response to JD's post.
There are no correct churches. That has been my position for a long time now and stated several times on the forum.
The cause of the changes are really the churches, it is as I stated above: Christian culture and Christian attitudes, Christian spirit. Both Levitical followings and Pauline followings are falling away to Jesus followings.
I don't "believe in" any church, Christian or otherwise. I consider myself a truth seeker, a Jesus follower and a universalist.
On a previous post, I gave you a list of 6000 "gay affirming" churches. There is tons of information there to discover what they are doing to lead the way.
I gave you a specific example of one of the largest denominations in our country who ordained gay ministers going back to 1988 and compared that to the US government who did not allow gays into the military until 2011. That's what I call "leading the way" for those churches and government "following the leaders", or more precisely trying to "lead from the rear" which governments are adept at.
Now I have repeated myself more than once on your strange questions which seem to be grasping at straws to prove your claim that Christians are most often the ones who do the killing of homosexuals. Your claim is patently false and prejudicial. Your buddy tried to back you up on it with some clever diversions but failed rather spectacularly.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 26, 2014 18:29:58 GMT -5
Both Levitical followings and Pauline followings are falling away to Jesus followings. Now, who (other than Bert) can argue that the world is becoming a better place? (Even if Christianity is just one very small part of it! )
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 18:35:53 GMT -5
Both Levitical followings and Pauline followings are falling away to Jesus followings. Now, who (other than Bert) can argue that the world is becoming a better place? (Even if Christianity is just one very small part of it! ) Actually, I have been considering that topic for one of my next personal blogs on my newly minted blog site. The data in some areas is so overwhelming that it is actually difficult to believe. The Chicken Littles are really struggling with it these days.
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Post by rational on Apr 26, 2014 20:11:40 GMT -5
Good spin. You wondered why gays were losing ground in Russia and speculated it was because they were not religious. And then wondered if it was the atheists. As it turns out it is the rise in the christian church supporting the government. And your spin - oh, they are old time christians. Not like the christians we have here. Your turn for spin. I didn't speculate anything in the beginning, just asked the question. But yeah, definitely old time literalist Christians like the ones who used to support homophobia here. Are you telling me that these are liberal Christians just like the ones we have here? Today is a good day for spinning! So what you are saying is that these are not the christians you are talking about. Let's look at what you said: I have presented trends showing that this is rapidly changing. 10 years ago, this was a serious sin. The term "abomination" has, in 2014, largely disappeared from use except from extremists. For an increasing number of Christians, it's now similar to the sin of slapping someone in the face. A slap in the face for which people can be jailed? There are only 650 churches and chapel in Moscow now which indicates a very weak church presence, but I do expect that Orthodox views may well lean toward homophobia. Weak presence?!? It is over 70% of the adult population. The Eastern Orthodox church sees gay sex as a sin similar to adultery and illicit drug use. No they don't. The Moscow Times (Mar. 12 2013) reported on a survey that found: The survey showed that 23 percent of respondents felt that gay people should be left alone, while 27 percent said they needed psychological help. Another 16 percent suggested that gays be isolated from society, 22 percent insisted on compulsory treatment, and 5 percent said homosexuals should be "liquidated."(emphasis added) They however, take a soft stance to it: "In full confidentiality the Orthodox Church cares and provides pastorally for homosexuals in the belief that no sinner who has failed himself and God should be allowed to deteriorate morally and spiritually." So in that statement, the church doesn't promote any form of persecution, let alone murder as has been intimated on this thread. Not in that specific statement. There is the priest who wants homosexuals removed from Russia - was he not telling the truth? Your post, suggesting that gays in Russia were having an increasingly difficult time because they were, as you said, not religious. Are you saying that was correct because you were not talking about the 70+% of adults in Russia who identified themselves as christians? Now if you will point out my mistake, I will admit it. I'm definitely on board for the influence of the church on Putin's homosexual policies and haven't said otherwise. That's why I asked the question! You must think that a question mark on the end of a sentence is irrelevant? In the last sentence it is simply wrong. Your post: Perhaps you could explain why an irreligious country like Russia is moving toward more gay hatred and prejudice. Is not an interrogative phrase nor does it contain a question mark. You are stating that Russia is an irreligious country and that gays are having a more difficult time and asking for a reason. And I explained it with data and quotations relevant to the situation in Russia. Now that we have established that, your position appears to be that the church is causing the anti-homosexual policies in Russia. Where is your proof for that? I posted quotes from several sources including Russian newspapers. But here is another one: The Orthodox Church’s role in Russia’s anti-gay laws
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 20:48:17 GMT -5
If using a report from a rival, hated church group (the RCC)written by a gay activist is what you call proof, I have a bridge to sell you. That article is one of the worst bits of reporting around. This is a joke for "proof":
"These Russian Orthodox Christians are likely taking their cue from their leader, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill." That is just inflammatory garbage with no proof whatsoever. Can you not tell the difference between an unbiased report and a report with an agenda? Surely rational, you don't expect to read a report from Burger King about how wonderful the Big Mac is? Would you really call that proof? This isn't one of your finest arguments.......all to defend your sidekick's false assertion that Christians are most often murdering gay people.
Now I have provided you with expert opinion from several articles stating that the Russian church is at most a minor stooge player in this. You should read unbiased reports and admit that you are grossly mistaken to actually believe a Roman Catholic Church report by a gay activist on the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 26, 2014 22:42:16 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on 19 hours ago(amended) I guess this is for me. It came from a response to JD's post. There are no correct churches. That has been my position for a long time now and stated several times on the forum. The cause of the changes are really the churches, it is as I stated above: Christian culture and Christian attitudes, Christian spirit. Both Levitical followings and Pauline followings are falling away to Jesus followings. I don't "believe in" any church, Christian or otherwise. I consider myself a truth seeker, a Jesus follower and a universalist. On a previous post, I gave you a list of 6000 "gay affirming" churches. There is tons of information there to discover what they are doing to lead the way. I gave you a specific example of one of the largest denominations in our country who ordained gay ministers going back to 1988 and compared that to the US government who did not allow gays into the military until 2011. That's what I call "leading the way" for those churches and government "following the leaders", or more precisely trying to "lead from the rear" which governments are adept at. Now I have repeated myself more than once on your strange questions which seem to be grasping at straws to prove your claim that Christians are most often the ones who do the killing of homosexuals. Y our claim is patently false and prejudicial. Your buddy tried to back you up on it with some clever diversions but failed rather spectacularly. An ad honimem attacks once again.
First, you say "I don't "believe in" any church, Christian or otherwise" then next you say "in the church I attend." I will admit you have me completely buffaloed at what you really are doing.
Are you, or are not "attending" a church?
Do you or do you not "believe in the "church" that you are or that you are not "attending?"
Surely you aren't ashamed of the church that you are "attending" or not "attending" whichever.
you say a lot of wonderful things about it.
It would seem easy to give it a name
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 26, 2014 22:44:39 GMT -5
Not sad at all.
She sees what is reality and doesn't need to mask it over with supernatural nonsense.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 23:46:50 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Apr 26, 2014 23:53:52 GMT -5
If using a report from a rival, hated church group (the RCC)written by a gay activist is what you call proof, I have a bridge to sell you. That article is one of the worst bits of reporting around. This is a joke for "proof": "These Russian Orthodox Christians are likely taking their cue from their leader, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill." That is just inflammatory garbage with no proof whatsoever. Except the speech from which the material was gathered was given at Kazan Cathedral in Red Square. It was hardly a secret. The proof was not the person who delivered the information, it was the information. No matter how many times you repeat this it is still a distortion. No one but you has said "Christians are most often murdering gay people" but you have lied about this so many times that I have to think you have come to believe it. A minor stooge player with which over 70% of the adult population identify. The reports you provided are as biased as any others. They focus on the political side and all but ignore the influence the church has on the way people view homosexuals. However, further discussion is useless. The adults in Russia who self identify as christians are simply dismissed as being the wrong kind of christians. The leader of the church speaks at a cathedral in red square and it is dismissed as inflammatory garbage with no proof whatsoever. I will leave it to you to spin the facts on your own as required to fit your foregone conclusion.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 27, 2014 0:00:24 GMT -5
Clearday, you know the "relevance."
The "relevance" is trying to get to what you really mean
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 27, 2014 0:11:36 GMT -5
"It's a Christian church with no official name!"
You're kidding!
You mean the "church" we refer to here on this board as the "2 by 2's"?
If that is true, it certainly is even more relevant than I thought!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 27, 2014 0:34:20 GMT -5
If using a report from a rival, hated church group (the RCC)written by a gay activist is what you call proof, I have a bridge to sell you. That article is one of the worst bits of reporting around. This is a joke for "proof": "These Russian Orthodox Christians are likely taking their cue from their leader, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill." That is just inflammatory garbage with no proof whatsoever. Can you not tell the difference between an unbiased report and a report with an agenda? Surely rational, you don't expect to read a report from Burger King about how wonderful the Big Mac is? Would you really call that proof? This isn't one of your finest arguments.......all to defend your sidekick's false assertion that Christians are most often murdering gay people.
..... CLEARDAY!
You know very well that I NEVER made that statement! ("that Christians are most often murdering gay people")
You are being absolutely deceitful!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 27, 2014 0:49:53 GMT -5
Clearday! I never made such a statement!
You keep on repeating that lie!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 1:05:41 GMT -5
Clearday! I never made such a statement!
You keep on repeating that lie! this: "That kind of speech has also resulted in the death in the LGBT ( liesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) community" followed by this: 'Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing." leads one to believe you meant Christians were most often killing homosexuals..whether or not you like that is not relevant
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 27, 2014 1:24:44 GMT -5
Clearday! I never made such a statement!
You keep on repeating that lie! this: "That kind of speech has also resulted in the death in the LGBT ( liesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) community" followed by this: 'Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing."leads one to believe you meant Christians were most often killing homosexuals..whether or not you like that is not relevant Wally,
Only YOU are responsible for putting together sentences and believing that one leads to something I never said.
I am not responsible for your conjectures!
Just how many times do I have to repeat what I actually said?
"Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 1:30:40 GMT -5
this: "That kind of speech has also resulted in the death in the LGBT ( liesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) community" followed by this: 'Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing."leads one to believe you meant Christians were most often killing homosexuals..whether or not you like that is not relevant Wally,
Only YOU are responsible for putting together sentences and believing that one leads to something I never said.
I am not responsible for your conjectures!
Just how many times do I have to repeat what I actually said?
"Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing."
thats the neat thing about inflammatory hate speech...you can often paint yourself into a corner...
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 27, 2014 2:25:44 GMT -5
Wally,
Only YOU are responsible for putting together sentences and believing that one leads to something I never said.
I am not responsible for your conjectures!
Just how many times do I have to repeat what I actually said?
"Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing."
[/quote ]thats the neat thing about inflammatory hate speech...you can often paint yourself into a corner... Y es, indeedy, -that seems to be what your friend, clearday has done.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 2:41:57 GMT -5
Xna, I don't know how to copy the graphic of one Butterfly McQueen here.
Re her philosophy: Interesting but hardly original philosophy. It's premised upon the idea that life is an accident and has no purpose. Nihilism and narcissism are the rule of the day. One wonders what sort of world we will have if and when this triumphs.
In the 20th Century over 85% of all man's inhumanity to man had secular causes. We might like to consider this when it comes to blaming God for man's behavior.
(If China and Indo China remained Buddhist, and Russia remained Orthodox that alone would have saved over 100 million lives.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 6:30:12 GMT -5
Clearday! I never made such a statement!
You keep on repeating that lie! Some lie. I will get it exactly correct the next time instead of paraphrasing so I apologize profusely for not cutting and pasting what means the same thing. You actually said this: "Bible Believers are often the very ones that do the killing."It is a false and prejudicial statement. You and your mentor can't wiggle around this with more false claims of "lying". And then you have the unmitigated gall to accuse Wally of exactly what you are doing. Carry on. Business as usual.
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Post by xna on Apr 27, 2014 7:31:47 GMT -5
Xna, I don't know how to copy the graphic of one Butterfly McQueen here. Re her philosophy: Interesting but hardly original philosophy. It's premised upon the idea that life is an accident and has no purpose. Nihilism and narcissism are the rule of the day. One wonders what sort of world we will have if and when this triumphs. In the 20th Century over 85% of all man's inhumanity to man had secular causes. We might like to consider this when it comes to blaming God for man's behavior. (If China and Indo China remained Buddhist, and Russia remained Orthodox that alone would have saved over 100 million lives.) I like some quotes as they succinctly get to the heart of the matter. Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg said it best in the attached pic. PS: Humanism is not about Nihilism and Narcissism. God is a Narcissist.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 7:59:53 GMT -5
Xna, I don't know how to copy the graphic of one Butterfly McQueen here. Re her philosophy: Interesting but hardly original philosophy. It's premised upon the idea that life is an accident and has no purpose. Nihilism and narcissism are the rule of the day. One wonders what sort of world we will have if and when this triumphs. In the 20th Century over 85% of all man's inhumanity to man had secular causes. We might like to consider this when it comes to blaming God for man's behavior. (If China and Indo China remained Buddhist, and Russia remained Orthodox that alone would have saved over 100 million lives.) I like some quotes as they succinctly get to the heart of the matter. Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg said it best in the attached pic. PS: Humanism is not about Nihilism and Narcissism. God is a Narcissist. Mr Weinberg's cynicism seems boundless. He thinks human life is farcical and at its best, tragic. And he states "The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless." I doubt he would be a fun guy at a party!
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Post by xna on Apr 27, 2014 8:09:09 GMT -5
I like some quotes as they succinctly get to the heart of the matter. Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg said it best in the attached pic. PS: Humanism is not about Nihilism and Narcissism. God is a Narcissist. Mr Weinberg's cynicism seems boundless. He thinks human life is farcical and at its best, tragic. And he states "The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless." I doubt he would be a fun guy at a party! The universe is indifferent to mankind. Want a purpose in life - go make your own. youtu.be/Tvz0mmF6NW4
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 8:13:52 GMT -5
Quote "For good people to do evil things that takes religion"
That's a sweeping generalization. Much of the evil people have done to people is rooted in Good Causes. For instance, creating racial purity, enforcing equality, defending one's country, restoring a tradional society. This was, in order - Nazi Germany, Stalin's USSR, Imperial Japan and Ghandi's India. Death toll, in order (maybe) 60m, 20m, 5m and 80-100m. (m being million.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 8:17:47 GMT -5
Mr Weinberg's cynicism seems boundless. He thinks human life is farcical and at its best, tragic. And he states "The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless." I doubt he would be a fun guy at a party! The universe is indifferent to mankind. Want a purpose in life - go make your own. youtu.be/Tvz0mmF6NW4Most scientists would probably state that the universe is reacting to mankind, such as in climate change and genetic engineering.
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Post by xna on Apr 27, 2014 8:27:20 GMT -5
Quote " For good people to do evil things that takes religion" That's a sweeping generalization. Much of the evil people have done to people is rooted in Good Causes. For instance, creating racial purity, enforcing equality, defending one's country, restoring a tradional society. This was, in order - Nazi Germany, Stalin's USSR, Imperial Japan and Ghandi's India. Death toll, in order (maybe) 60m, 20m, 5m and 80-100m. (m being million.) Evil may been done by atheist but not just because they are atheist. In your examples It was not because they had no religion but their dogmatic views became their religion. Check out how many god kills in the bible. Did god create the 1918 flu pandemic which killed 50-100 million? How just is him who meets out infinite punishment for a finite crime. I guess the are not sentencing standard for god.
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Post by matisse on Apr 27, 2014 8:34:42 GMT -5
I like some quotes as they succinctly get to the heart of the matter. Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg said it best in the attached pic. PS: Humanism is not about Nihilism and Narcissism. God is a Narcissist. Mr Weinberg's cynicism seems boundless. He thinks human life is farcical and at its best, tragic. And he states "The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless." I doubt he would be a fun guy at a party! It is possible that he would not be much fun for you at a party! Here is some context for the Weinberg quote xna shared: Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery as the punishment of the children of Ham. Mark Twain described his mother as a genuinely good person, whose soft heart pitied even Satan, but who had no doubt about the legitimacy of slavery, because in years of living in antebellum Missouri she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion. -Steven Weinberg
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 8:37:44 GMT -5
Saying that some secular cause becomes a "religion" is not a fair argument. Really, it's having it both ways. That God threatened the Jewish nation with existential misery can be cause for offense. That God ACTUALLY DID IT should be cause for caution.
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