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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 7:50:29 GMT -5
When I heard that someone hoped to do better in the coming days, it was always expressed with sorrow and sometimes tears. It just seemed that some lives were devoid of any joy or gladness or hope. It was a constant beat-yourself-up attitude of fear. Some feelings and recognition of inadequacy in regards to one's self is a good thing. Otherwise, we might become too complacent. But the entire point of being a Christian is that we are redeemed in spite of those inadequacies. What comes to mind from your post is the way people would express themselves at convention, which was always a time of deep self-examination and a process over the four days of attendance. Many individuals, I think, would go through stages of initial remorse and then, joy and a sense of renewal, as the days go by. But I have no doubt that your categorization is correct for some people, which is sad to observe.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 8:48:48 GMT -5
I am sorry, but I thought salvation was determined at the Judgement. And "judgement begins in the house of God." meaning those who are, or were once, members of that household. Judgment and salvation don't seem to be directly linked, from my reading of the Bible. Judgement seems to be mainly to make those who are unaware, aware of their sins and their sinful condition. 1 Ti 5:24 The sins of some men are quite evident, going before them to judgment; for others, their sins follow after. From judgment follows punishment and verses generally imply that punishment is commensurate with the deed, and related to our works and deeds. An ongoing insensitivity to the consequences of our actions arouses the greatest wrath. Salvation is often spoken of in very broad collective, not individual terms, as a general state of righteousness, "and all flesh shall see the salvation of God". Salvation is not a moment in time when we are individually given a pass or fail, like passing a final exam. If you can find that kind of a description please let me know. Salvation seems to be a general condition, God's new kingdom, and everyone will want it once they see it. The kingdom is described and you don't have to be a so-called Christian to understand it; it's a state of love, righteousness, joy, no more suffering and no more tears. The message of Jesus is to aspire for that kingdom while we're here on Earth. Judgment appears to be a necessary step to being accepted into this perfect kingdom. In a sense we can experience judgment now, through self-examination against the Christ within, being subject to our conscience, and sensitive to others. It won't be a perfect judgment, but it can get us on the right path. In the after-life God will bring every one of our works into judgment, all the internal barriers we have created, and some of which remain, will come down. There will be a reckoning for our deeds, and a refiner's fire. That which is worth saving has come through the Spirit of Life and Truth, perfectly embodied in Jesus. That which cannot enter into the eternal kingdom will be burned away. Of what role is Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross? If awareness of our sins is the first step, then commitment to salvation, for mankind, is the second one. We can't commit because the weight of our sins, once understood, is far too great. The love of God and his desire to save us is far greater, and as a token of his love for us, he sacrificed his Son. Understanding the sacrifice is understanding and believing in the love of God. There is a symmetry in the Bible between righteousness, that is, living a good life and a belief in Christ as the son of God. You simply can't have one without the other. (see 1 John 3 v. 6 to 8). What of those who practice goodness and righteousness and say they don't believe in Christ, or in God as conceived by Christians? This becomes a matter of opinion, but in my opinion, the sacrifice of Christ is a picture or a metaphor for the love of God. All that is strictly necessary is faith in righteousness, and that faith is not possible without a kind of surrender, or an act of internal surrender or simply a trust in the worthiness of the cause of righteousness. That trust is something else other than the self working within a person. So, again, entirely my opinion, it's not necessary to go to church, or read the Bible, or go through any of the public Christian rituals to obtain salvation. However, I also believe that these things (like reading the Bible or going to a church) can help a person.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 8:53:34 GMT -5
Well, that's it for the bible, then.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 8:55:54 GMT -5
Well, that's it for the bible, then. Do you think there are people who know what's in it, without ever having read it? If you like, I can name some.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 9:06:04 GMT -5
Some read the bible, some can't. I think what Matters is - there are people who don't care what's in it.
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Post by matisse on Apr 19, 2014 10:43:35 GMT -5
I think it's rather the case that we are led to do good works because it is innate within us, the Christ within. Then, there is always the malingering doubt that our works are not good enough or not sufficient to merit eternal salvation, and that is why we require the quality of divine grace, so that we don't turn into a race of rabid perfectionists. I like the book of Ecclesiastes in that regard, as it teaches that we should learn contentment, in this question of the insufficiency of our works, and also in our approach to our daily existence and being satisfied with the basic stuff of our lives. It's an anti-consumerist message that was written thousands of years ago. Combine that with godliness, and there is a great gain. I believe humans have innate drives that probably have to do with the fact that we are social beings.....I don't refer to these as "the Christ within," and I don't make reference to "eternal salvation" but, if I may be so bold, I suspect that what you experience is not so far from what I experience, with the biggest differences between us being in the "framing" of our existence. I don't know what you mean by "godliness." I haven't seen an "augmentation" of some Quality of Being of believers over non-believers that one might attribute to a "divine something or other" available to one and not the other. (post script: I see you have edited your post since I began writing mine...I'll leave mine as is..but please bear it in mind!)
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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 10:46:39 GMT -5
Some read the bible, some can't. I think what Matters is - there are people who don't care what's in it. I think people's attitudes about the truths contained in or outside of the Bible are much more important than their attitude to the Bible, per se. Much of the ambivalence about the Bible in today's society comes from mistaken notions about the book, or rather, on them having the Bible mediated in one way or another, without coming to it on their own terms. The workers, to their credit, often urge people just to read the Bible for themselves. They, and ministers of the Word in general, are at their worst when thinking of themselves as having a superior ability to mediate Scripture to others. Wouldn't you agree? (Because I work in the technology field I enjoy the Dilbert cartoon. There is a character who runs I/T in Dilbert's company, who is known as Mordac, the preventer of information services. It's an apt characterization for I/T departments in many companies who inhibit progress more than anything else. Sometimes I see clergy in the same sense. Mind you I also know some who feel inhibited and somewhat frustrated by the expectations of their flock.)
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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 11:09:44 GMT -5
I think it's rather the case that we are led to do good works because it is innate within us, the Christ within. Then, there is always the malingering doubt that our works are not good enough or not sufficient to merit eternal salvation, and that is why we require the quality of divine grace, so that we don't turn into a race of rabid perfectionists. I like the book of Ecclesiastes in that regard, as it teaches that we should learn contentment, in this question of the insufficiency of our works, and also in our approach to our daily existence and being satisfied with the basic stuff of our lives. It's an anti-consumerist message that was written thousands of years ago. Combine that with godliness, and there is a great gain. I believe humans have an innate drives that probably have to do with the fact that we are social beings.....I don't refer to these as "the Christ within," and I don't make reference to "eternal salvation" but, if I may be so bold, I suspect that what you experience is not so far from what I experience, with the biggest differences between us being in the "framing" of our existence. I don't know what you mean by "godliness." I haven't seen an "augmentation" of some Quality of Being of believers over non-believers that one might attribute to a "divine something or other" available to one and not the other. (post script: I see you have edited your post since I began writing mine...I'll leave mine as is..but please bear it in mind!) I'm totally in agreement with your first paragraph. As a Christian I would seek to make common cause with those who are committed to certain goals in this life, whether social justice, elimination of poverty or some other cause, and only incidentally with those who call themselves Christians. So it's purely a question of how we frame our experience. Godliness in the sense of achieving a gain, is a question of "laying aside weights", of self-discipline and denial. It's a goal that is subordinate to having compassion, but is ultimately the product of compassion. I try not to curse, I don't smoke, drink in moderation, exercise, careful with my diet, and these all have to do with godliness. I'm actually quite a creature of habit and passion, so this is learned behaviour for me. It's not a question of being a better person as a result, or trying to earn anyone's admiration or God's approval, but more an internal struggle in order to have time and energy to focus on things that do matter. If you're going to be all you can be as a person, you have to make some sacrifices, and also a separation from many things of the world. Holiness and godliness are similar terms. Marcus Borg has observed that holiness is the main lesson or object of the Old Testament, and compassion the main object of the New.
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Post by matisse on Apr 19, 2014 11:59:16 GMT -5
I believe humans have an innate drives that probably have to do with the fact that we are social beings.....I don't refer to these as "the Christ within," and I don't make reference to "eternal salvation" but, if I may be so bold, I suspect that what you experience is not so far from what I experience, with the biggest differences between us being in the "framing" of our existence. I don't know what you mean by "godliness." I haven't seen an "augmentation" of some Quality of Being of believers over non-believers that one might attribute to a "divine something or other" available to one and not the other. (post script: I see you have edited your post since I began writing mine...I'll leave mine as is..but please bear it in mind!) I'm totally in agreement with your first paragraph. As a Christian I would seek to make common cause with those who are committed to certain goals in this life, whether social justice, elimination of poverty or some other cause, and only incidentally with those who call themselves Christians. So it's purely a question of how we frame our experience. Godliness in the sense of achieving a gain, is a question of "laying aside weights", of self-discipline and denial. It's a goal that is subordinate to having compassion, but is ultimately the product of compassion. I try not to curse, I don't smoke, drink in moderation, exercise, careful with my diet, and these all have to do with godliness. I'm actually quite a creature of habit and passion, so this is learned behaviour for me. It's not a question of being a better person as a result, or trying to earn anyone's admiration or God's approval, but more an internal struggle in order to have time and energy to focus on things that do matter. If you're going to be all you can be as a person, you have to make some sacrifices, and also a separation from many things of the world. Holiness and godliness are similar terms. Marcus Borg has observed that holiness is the main lesson or object of the Old Testament, and compassion the main object of the New. What you describe as "Godliness" doesn't sound like anything outside of the realm of human beings to me. I don't think it is exclusive to believers in God to decide that there are some things in life that are worth making sacrifices for. One doesn't have to believe in God or in life after death in order to approach one's life as being worth living "well."
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Post by snow on Apr 19, 2014 17:43:25 GMT -5
No I don't imagine many would. I guess the difference might be the reason why we want to do better. Is it to please a God and get to heaven? Or, is it because we don't want others treated in inhumane ways for their sake? I don't do it for a God so I can get into heaven because I don't believe in that. I want to be better at it so that the world around me is a better, happier more loving place to be. Be a blessing not a curse mindset I guess. And that should be as true for a Christian. God's salvation is the Christ within. Which to me, is that the mission of our lives is not an externality to which we aspire in belief or works, but something already within which is innate and can be cultivated. If the process of living as a Christian doesn't result in a desire to make "the world around us a better, happier more loving place to be" then it's worthless, IMO. I imagine different things trigger it. Religion is just one way of many that makes people want to make this world a better place for everyone.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 19, 2014 19:01:29 GMT -5
Well, that's it for the bible, then. Actually, the bible is pretty specific what Judgment day is about. It plainly states that the books of deeds will be opened...and it IS in the plural, so we know that there's going to be a whole lot of deeds recorded for a whole lot of people. It also says the Lamb's book of Life will be there....and in this case it is only ONE book or in a single sense. The names that are in the Lamb's book of life are those who have salvation by the Lamb's blood...like all those innumerable crowd of people in white robes that JOhn saw in heaven AFTER he'd seen the 144,000 of the children of Israel and he was told that this group of people were those who had washed their robes clean in the Lamb's blood. So we look at salvation being by grace, so this is what this is. The book of deeds will be opened for all people, even people who do not or have not believed in God, etc...their deeds are opened and THIS is when "REWARDS" are merited out. Will some people know eternal life from this? It doesn't say, it only says those that are of the second resurrection are 'in danger" of the second death, not that they will ALL die the second death but be in danger "of the second death." Paul wrote about delivering someone to the devil to burn away their awful works but save their souls in the last day.....otherwords these people apparently do profess belief in the Lord Jesus Christ and all that means, but then their deeds do not withstand the trial by fire...so they have NO rewards or little rewards awaiting them, but will have eternal life. Then there may be some atheists or agnostic folks who have been wonderful charitable folks having many good deeds recorded and they have withstood the tests of fire and time and so they will be given their reward and some may have already had their reward and this may be in public recognition and praise for their many great charitable works.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 21:28:38 GMT -5
I'm totally in agreement with your first paragraph. As a Christian I would seek to make common cause with those who are committed to certain goals in this life, whether social justice, elimination of poverty or some other cause, and only incidentally with those who call themselves Christians. So it's purely a question of how we frame our experience. Godliness in the sense of achieving a gain, is a question of "laying aside weights", of self-discipline and denial. It's a goal that is subordinate to having compassion, but is ultimately the product of compassion. I try not to curse, I don't smoke, drink in moderation, exercise, careful with my diet, and these all have to do with godliness. I'm actually quite a creature of habit and passion, so this is learned behaviour for me. It's not a question of being a better person as a result, or trying to earn anyone's admiration or God's approval, but more an internal struggle in order to have time and energy to focus on things that do matter. If you're going to be all you can be as a person, you have to make some sacrifices, and also a separation from many things of the world. Holiness and godliness are similar terms. Marcus Borg has observed that holiness is the main lesson or object of the Old Testament, and compassion the main object of the New. What you describe as "Godliness" doesn't sound like anything outside of the realm of human beings to me. I don't think it is exclusive to believers in God to decide that there are some things in life that are worth making sacrifices for. One doesn't have to believe in God or in life after death in order to approach one's life as being worth living "well." I never think of God as operative in the supernatural realm. Stories like Jonah and the whale, or the battle of Jericho are either just stories or they have a perfectly good explanation, not known to the writer at the time. I do believe in an after-life and I believe in a God in the after-life. I believe in a God in this life also, but lacking agency in the corporeal world other than through the hearts of men and women. There could well be angels, although I haven't considered the question in some time. I suppose that I take as a fundamental belief that there is no quality that is exclusively found in Christian believers. It strikes me as fundamentally unjust that one person gets to heaven through accident of birth, while another does not. So I dismiss outright the idea that any such advantage obtains for residents of the Western world who happen to become Christians. I've mentioned this before, but I've become a universalist Christian since I left the friends.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 21:33:18 GMT -5
And that should be as true for a Christian. God's salvation is the Christ within. Which to me, is that the mission of our lives is not an externality to which we aspire in belief or works, but something already within which is innate and can be cultivated. If the process of living as a Christian doesn't result in a desire to make "the world around us a better, happier more loving place to be" then it's worthless, IMO. I imagine different things trigger it. Religion is just one way of many that makes people want to make this world a better place for everyone. Actually I view the motive force as all of a piece. I find the Christian religion provides a framework or explanation for understanding what is going on. It works for me and does not work for everyone. But the forces that moves us in one direction or the other, and the general existential reality of the world are somewhat of a constant. If your heart is moved to do something, versus mine being moved in the same direction, it's the same motive force, although we account for it in different ways.
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Post by snow on Apr 20, 2014 9:49:10 GMT -5
I imagine different things trigger it. Religion is just one way of many that makes people want to make this world a better place for everyone. Actually I view the motive force as all of a piece. I find the Christian religion provides a framework or explanation for understanding what is going on. It works for me and does not work for everyone. But the forces that moves us in one direction or the other, and the general existential reality of the world are somewhat of a constant. If your heart is moved to do something, versus mine being moved in the same direction, it's the same motive force, although we account for it in different ways. Yes.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 20, 2014 10:07:14 GMT -5
Actually I view the motive force as all of a piece. I find the Christian religion provides a framework or explanation for understanding what is going on. It works for me and does not work for everyone. But the forces that moves us in one direction or the other, and the general existential reality of the world are somewhat of a constant. If your heart is moved to do something, versus mine being moved in the same direction, it's the same motive force, although we account for it in different ways. Yes. We call this "socialization" in animals, particularly dogs....otherwise they are not good to have around for they are not aware of people and other animals around them and are apt to be quicker to react negatively when not socialized. Of course, the type of socialization in any life forms is what leads us all to be good or bad! Kind of like the old saying "an apple doesn't fall too far from the tree." eh?
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Post by déjà vu on Nov 7, 2014 13:54:55 GMT -5
[Can Christians Lose Their Salvation? Part One of Two
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."
—John 10:27–29 NIV1984
Sincere believers are sharply divided on this question. Some say Christians can lose their salvation and subsequently must be born again and again if they fall away. Others contend that true believers cannot lose their salvation through sin, but they can apostatize or walk away from their salvation. Still others hold that salvation begins at the moment of conversion (not death) and continues for all eternity—I hold this view for several reasons.
First, outward appearances can be deceiving. Consider Judas. For three years, he was part of Christ's inner circle. From all outward appearances, he was a true follower of Christ. Yet, Jesus characterized Judas as "a devil" (John 6:70). The book of Hebrews warns us that there were Jews who, like Judas, tasted God's goodness and yet turned from his grace. They acknowledged Christ with their lips, but their apostasy proved that their faith was not real (Hebrews 6:4–8; 10:26–31; cf. 1 John 2:19).
In Monday's Daily e-Truth we'll see that everlasting life begins the moment we embrace the Savior by grace through faith. CRI
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Post by applesandbacon on Nov 7, 2014 15:53:59 GMT -5
What you describe as "Godliness" doesn't sound like anything outside of the realm of human beings to me. I don't think it is exclusive to believers in God to decide that there are some things in life that are worth making sacrifices for. One doesn't have to believe in God or in life after death in order to approach one's life as being worth living "well." I never think of God as operative in the supernatural realm. Stories like Jonah and the whale, or the battle of Jericho are either just stories or they have a perfectly good explanation, not known to the writer at the time. I do believe in an after-life and I believe in a God in the after-life. I believe in a God in this life also, but lacking agency in the corporeal world other than through the hearts of men and women. There could well be angels, although I haven't considered the question in some time. I suppose that I take as a fundamental belief that there is no quality that is exclusively found in Christian believers. It strikes me as fundamentally unjust that one person gets to heaven through accident of birth, while another does not. So I dismiss outright the idea that any such advantage obtains for residents of the Western world who happen to become Christians. I've mentioned this before, but I've become a universalist Christian since I left the friends. Wow. Everything you said here is what I've been thinking lately!
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