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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 1:30:10 GMT -5
Wally, here are the F.A.C.T.S :
Jesus said:
1 - Those who don't understand will be beaten with "few stripes." 2 - Those who DO understand (but fail) will be beaten with "many stripes."
And
3 - Judgement begins in the "house of God."
All this is up for grabs. But some things are patently obvious:
a - Judgment comes before heaven or hell. b - Everyone is judged. c - having Paul's "strong hope" is different to being "saved" because "saved" is contingent.
All that's left to really debate if you believe Jesus is what constitutes the "house of God."
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Post by jondough on Mar 18, 2014 8:53:36 GMT -5
Wally, here are the F.A.C.T.S : Jesus said: 1 - Those who don't understand will be beaten with "few stripes." 2 - Those who DO understand (but fail) will be beaten with "many stripes." And 3 - Judgement begins in the "house of God." All this is up for grabs. But some things are patently obvious: a - Judgment comes before heaven or hell. b - Everyone is judged. c - having Paul's "strong hope" is different to being "saved" because "saved" is contingent. All that's left to really debate if you believe Jesus is what constitutes the "house of God." I've never thought about this before but, doesn't this give hope to everyone - both believers and unbelievers. It isn't condemning them to eternal damnation. When someone gets flogged, its basically a temporary punishment (not unto death). They are able to recover and heal from that punishment.
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Post by jondough on Mar 18, 2014 11:21:13 GMT -5
I've never thought about this before but, doesn't this give hope to everyone - both believers and unbelievers. It isn't condemning them to eternal damnation. When someone gets flogged, its basically a temporary punishment (not unto death). They are able to recover and heal from that punishment. There is hope, mercy, repentance, and forgiveness while there is life but death seals our choices, we have made in life. There is NO second chance AFTER death. The gulf is FIXED! Luke 16:23-31 And being in torments in Hades, he/the rich man lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” Can you explain these verses; 1st Peter 3:18 - 19 Christ sufferedd for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.e 19So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— 20those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 11:48:40 GMT -5
The idea of a non-eternal hell is pretty easy to support biblically, particularly since words like "forever" and "eternal" often intended to convey "a long long time" rather than "into infinity".
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Post by jondough on Mar 18, 2014 12:07:07 GMT -5
Can you explain these verses; 1st Peter 3:18 - 19 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. 19So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— 20those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Question: "Where was Jesus for the three days between His death and resurrection?"Answer: 1 Peter 3:18-19 states, "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison." The phrase, "by the Spirit," in verse 18 is exactly the same construction as the phrase, "in the flesh." So it seems best to relate the word "spirit" to the same realm as the word "flesh." The flesh and spirit are Christ's flesh and spirit. The words "made alive by (in) the spirit" point to the fact that Christ's sin-bearing and death brought about the separation of His human spirit from the Father (Matthew 27:46). The contrast is between flesh and spirit, as in Matthew 27:46 and Romans 1:3-4, and not between Christ's flesh and the Holy Spirit. When Christ's atonement for sin was completed, His spirit restored the fellowship which had been broken. First Peter 3:18-22 describes a necessary link between Christ's suffering (verse 18) and His glorification (verse 22). Only Peter gives specific information about what happened between these two events. The word "preached" in verse 19 is not the usual word in the New Testament to describe the preaching of the gospel. It literally means to herald a message. Jesus suffered and died on the Cross, His body being put to death, and His spirit died when He was made sin. But His spirit was made alive and He yielded it to the Father. According to Peter, sometime between His death and His resurrection Jesus made a special proclamation to "the spirits in prison." To begin with, Peter referred to people as "souls" and not "spirits" (3:20). In the New Testament, the word "spirits" is used to describe angels or demons, not human beings, and verse 22 seems to bear out this meaning. Also, nowhere in the Bible are we told that Jesus visited hell. Acts 2:31 says that He went to "Hades" (New American Standard Bible), but "Hades" is not hell. The word "Hades" refers to the realm of the dead, a temporary place where they await the resurrection. Revelation 20:11-15 in the NASB or the New International Version give a clear distinction between the two. Hell is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. Our Lord yielded His spirit to the Father, died, and at some time between death and resurrection, visited the realm of the dead where He delivered a message to spirit beings (probably fallen angels; see Jude 6) who were somehow related to the period before the flood in Noah's time. Verse 20 makes this clear. Peter did not tell us what He proclaimed to these imprisoned spirits, but it could not be a message of redemption since angels cannot be saved (Hebrews 2:16). It was probably a declaration of victory over Satan and his hosts (1 Peter 3:22; Colossians 2:15). Ephesians 4:8-10 also seems to indicate that Christ went to “paradise” (Luke 16:20; 23:43) and took to heaven all those who had believed in Him prior to His death. The passage doesn’t give a great amount of detail about what occurred, but most Bible scholars agree that this is what is meant by “led captivity captive.” So, all that to say, the Bible isn’t entirely clear what exactly Christ did for the three days between His death and resurrection. It does seem, though, that He was preaching victory over the fallen angels and/or unbelievers. What we can know for sure is that Jesus was not giving people a second chance for salvation. The Bible tells us that we face judgment after death (Hebrews 9:27), not a second chance. There isn't really any definitively clear answer for what Jesus was doing for the time between His death and resurrection. Perhaps this is one of the mysteries we will understand once we reach glory. Read more: www.gotquestions.org/where-was-Jesus.html#ixzz2wKi9WAA3This is a perfect example of someone explaining their own beliefs into scripture. I'm not arguing whether its right or wrong. Someone that believes completely different, could explain this completely different. At the end the writer admits that they really don't know what it means.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 18, 2014 14:03:46 GMT -5
a better word than works is fruit, you must bear fruit... Mat_7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat_13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Mar_4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. Luk_8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. Luk_13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Joh_15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. So people are likened to fruit trees? What are the "fruits" that they supposed to bear?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 14:07:09 GMT -5
Gal_5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Eph_5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
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Post by What Hat on Mar 22, 2014 10:49:23 GMT -5
I was thinking along the lines that more "fear" within groups that would not be teaching salvation by grace, but rather that salvation may be attained by hoping to DO more or better to please God by whatever "legalisms" the church might teach. e.g.- attend meetings faithfully, support the ministry, worshiping in the "correct' geographic location etc. etc. The "fear" being motivated by recognizing in ourself, that we never could "do" enough or "be" good enough or follow all the "legalisms" perfectly, even though one always desires to "do better in the coming days", and thus fearing God might not be pleased with "me", and "salvation is determined at death'. Alvin I don't like legalism because the heart of it is one group of people wanting to feel superior to everyone else. However, I can tell you that as a child being raised in a church that was strong on "saved by the grace of God" that the fear of Hell was ever so strong as in a legalistic church. The fear turns on a different axis; it turns on belief, not on action. The fear is "not really believing" and that is worse than legalism because it is a form of mind control. That is, if you don't really believe that Jesus was God Incarnate, or even that some minor aspects of the doctrine are not correct; if you doubt too much, if your faith is not strong enough, then you'll go to Hell. I think those were the fears that I lived with as a child, but that of course continues to work on the subconscious even as I rationally rejected the logic of punishment based on my belief, as I became an adult. I have much less trouble in believing that God will judge every deed, than the idea that God will judge according to what we happen to believe, which often just depends on the culture into which we are born. The former concept is much more just, and if you look at it closely, also more Biblical. But part and parcel with believing in a judgement of deeds and action has to be a rejection of the idea of eternal Hell, because that idea, no matter whether its basis resides in our actions or our beliefs, is also fundamentally unjust.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 22, 2014 10:52:34 GMT -5
I was thinking along the lines that more "fear" within groups that would not be teaching salvation by grace, but rather that salvation may be attained by hoping to DO more or better to please God by whatever "legalisms" the church might teach. e.g.- attend meetings faithfully, support the ministry, worshiping in the "correct' geographic location etc. etc. The "fear" being motivated by recognizing in ourself, that we never could "do" enough or "be" good enough or follow all the "legalisms" perfectly, even though one always desires to "do better in the coming days", and thus fearing God might not be pleased with "me", and "salvation is determined at death'. Alvin Exactly. ...one always desires to "do better in the coming days" I had to chuckle at that one. Heard it so many, many times. I think that's fine, if you remove the idea that you'll be punished if you don't do better.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 11:00:14 GMT -5
Exactly. ...one always desires to "do better in the coming days" I had to chuckle at that one. Heard it so many, many times. I think that's fine, if you remove the idea that you'll be punished if you don't do better. Exactly. I think the desire and effort to "do better in the coming days" is an excellent sentiment. As you say WH, as long as it isn't done from a position of fear of eternal hell. It should come from a position of joy and anticipation. Improving and doing better is always a good thing.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 22, 2014 11:04:02 GMT -5
a better word than works is fruit, you must bear fruit... Mat_7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat_13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Mar_4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. Luk_8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. Luk_13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Joh_15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Recently I heard a preacher talk "around" the parable of the fruit tree. I suppose they didn't like the idea that we were like fruit trees, and that a tree not bearing fruit wasn't worth anything to God. Seems plain as the nose on my face, because these verses are a central teaching point for the workers. I suspect they're not taught a great deal in Calvinist churches as it's somewhat opposed to the idea of predestination and the elect. One point I would like to comment on is Matthew 7:19 which seems to be a clear reference to eternal Hell,as we know it. Clearday makes the point that the NT gospel writers weren't working with the concept of Hell according to what has been made of it in the centuries since. The actual reference points are a dump burning outside Jerusalem in one case, and a Greek notion of Hades in another. The simplest explanation is that Jesus often spoke in hyperbolic fashion, especially about things that really angered him: hypocrisy, cruelty and cold-heartedness. "A tree being cut down and thrown into a fire" is a metaphor in itself. That's what we actually do with useless trees. We should just refrain from extending poetic language into literal theories that we have no way of knowing whether they are correct. And, doing so often leads "into a maze" of ideas that simply does not add up. The basic message is that Jesus (and God) have little or no use for trees that are just "an encumbrance on the ground". That should be enough, if we love and serve God.
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Post by fixit on Mar 22, 2014 14:17:38 GMT -5
I have much less trouble in believing that God will judge every deed, than the idea that God will judge according to what we happen to believe, which often just depends on the culture into which we are born. The former concept is much more just, and if you look at it closely, also more Biblical. To me, elevating belief over works is more exclusive and unfair than putting works over belief. We have more control over our works than we do over our beliefs.
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Post by snow on Mar 22, 2014 14:57:05 GMT -5
I have much less trouble in believing that God will judge every deed, than the idea that God will judge according to what we happen to believe, which often just depends on the culture into which we are born. The former concept is much more just, and if you look at it closely, also more Biblical. To me, elevating belief over works is more exclusive and unfair than putting works over belief. We have more control over our works than we do over our beliefs. That's actually an interesting point. I can't believe in God, but I do believe in love and compassion and try to live those things as much as I can. If someone is just doing it out of obligation or fear of hell, there isn't much good to it sometimes.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 22, 2014 15:13:31 GMT -5
I have much less trouble in believing that God will judge every deed, than the idea that God will judge according to what we happen to believe, which often just depends on the culture into which we are born. The former concept is much more just, and if you look at it closely, also more Biblical. To me, elevating belief over works is more exclusive and unfair than putting works over belief. We have more control over our works than we do over our beliefs. I wonder if one does have more control over "works?" "Works" are in the same category as "laying up treasure in heaven"
The idea keeps you scrounging around working hard for something that you aren't quite sure what"works" are to start with; then one never knows when you actually have enough "works" etc,.
However, It does keeps your nose to the grindstone! (and all you might end up with is a terribly bloody nose!)
On the other hand, beliefs are incurred by believing in something so nebulous that it is untenable unless you forfeit sound reasoning and believe something supernatural or paranormal!
Then you have to distinguish which of the "supernatural or paranormal" unreasonable beliefs you will believe in out of a mulitude of "supernatural or paranormal" unreasonable beliefs floating around in the world!
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Post by fixit on Mar 22, 2014 18:10:12 GMT -5
To me, elevating belief over works is more exclusive and unfair than putting works over belief. We have more control over our works than we do over our beliefs. That's actually an interesting point. I can't believe in God, but I do believe in love and compassion and try to live those things as much as I can. If someone is just doing it out of obligation or fear of hell, there isn't much good to it sometimes. Would you like more love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control to be expressed in your life Snow?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 22, 2014 18:33:57 GMT -5
I have much less trouble in believing that God will judge every deed, than the idea that God will judge according to what we happen to believe, which often just depends on the culture into which we are born. The former concept is much more just, and if you look at it closely, also more Biblical. To me, elevating belief over works is more exclusive and unfair than putting works over belief. We have more control over our works than we do over our beliefs. Thank YOU, Fixit! You have said what should be explained and repeated time after time.....the bible specifically tells us that the Father "draws" the person toward eternal life or attempt to find eternal life....also "faith or belief" is a "GIFT from God", salvation is the reward for that "belief or faith", and to increase our faith we have to rely on God to do that, even relying on God to keep that faith or belief in us.......so yes, "works are under our control" and THIS is the very reason that salvation is by faith.......because WE have NO control over that.....all we can do is accept the drawing, the washing by blood and water from repentance, the gift of salvation, the increase of our faith throughout our lives as well as our "understanding" of the God whom we're so in debt to and whome as Jesus told his host one time...that those of us who have had the worst or most sins that we have received grace from then we are going to be the ones found "Loving the Lord our God with All of our heart, mind, soul and strength." We learn from day one we cannot get into this eternal life without God.....PERIOD! So it still comes down to that VERY PERSONAL relationship with our God and SAviour, doesn't it? Otherwords, works=based salvation is easier to teach, easier to learn, easier to hold to in the sense of long term.....but what does it say about the "real relationship" with God and Saviour? Yes, I know some who practice such can espouse words that say they love the Lord their God....but what kind of love is that? Is it the kind of love that says "Lord, look at me how much I've done for you and others." Putting God into debt? Don't think that will work. Might have IF Jesus had never been and advent......seemed to be much of what the OT was about.....obedience and works....BUT the fact is that Jesus was promised before the world ever really began....being made in like unto God with sensibilities of great intellect and talents, capabilities etc would prove to be the undoing of most humans....they'd get into some kind of sin even if it was just disobedience.....so God knew that mankind was going to have to have some way they could become "sons of God" and being born again is the way....which does not include works.......it includes Father drawing, Saviour washing, sanctifying, Holy Spirit justifying.....every aspect of God has to be in on the individual's salvation....the individual has to LET that happen.....
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Post by snow on Mar 22, 2014 20:41:18 GMT -5
That's actually an interesting point. I can't believe in God, but I do believe in love and compassion and try to live those things as much as I can. If someone is just doing it out of obligation or fear of hell, there isn't much good to it sometimes. Would you like more love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control to be expressed in your life Snow? I'm sure there is always room for improvement.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 22, 2014 22:05:52 GMT -5
Quite reasonable answer for any one of us, snow. I don't imagine very many people would feel like " I want to do WORSE in the coming days". Alvin
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Post by snow on Mar 23, 2014 9:47:49 GMT -5
Quite reasonable answer for any one of us, snow. I don't imagine very many people would feel like " I want to do WORSE in the coming days". Alvin No I don't imagine many would. I guess the difference might be the reason why we want to do better. Is it to please a God and get to heaven? Or, is it because we don't want others treated in inhumane ways for their sake? I don't do it for a God so I can get into heaven because I don't believe in that. I want to be better at it so that the world around me is a better, happier more loving place to be. Be a blessing not a curse mindset I guess.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 23, 2014 10:09:29 GMT -5
Many different "reasons" I'm sure. Another one might be " I am going to heaven and I know the god of heaven would be pleased to observe love expressed............"Alvin
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 23, 2014 10:10:41 GMT -5
Btw. Yours is a very good reason.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 23, 2014 10:24:41 GMT -5
Perhaps Snow's reason actually is the only reason it would work with God unto salvation, eh? Loving our brothers, our neighbors as ourselves. You know there are times I can really hate myself...but I don't generally abuse myself at those times, so in reality I still am loving myself "enough" not to abuse myself or I'm treating myself as I wish others would treat me....SO IF we are loving our neighbors and they can really stir up the dislike in our hearts due to some of their actions or non-actions...I'd say it was okay for those feelings to come and go...however since we won't abuse ourselves over things we hate ourself for why should we hate our neighbor any more then that...so again "love" reigns and there are NO major trespasses upon one another!
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Post by snow on Mar 23, 2014 11:18:37 GMT -5
Perhaps Snow's reason actually is the only reason it would work with God unto salvation, eh? Loving our brothers, our neighbors as ourselves. You know there are times I can really hate myself...but I don't generally abuse myself at those times, so in reality I still am loving myself "enough" not to abuse myself or I'm treating myself as I wish others would treat me....SO IF we are loving our neighbors and they can really stir up the dislike in our hearts due to some of their actions or non-actions...I'd say it was okay for those feelings to come and go...however since we won't abuse ourselves over things we hate ourself for why should we hate our neighbor any more then that...so again "love" reigns and there are NO major trespasses upon one another! Good point STR. I'm sure there are many times we do not like what others do or what we do, but there is no need to be abusive to either ourselves or others because of it. Our minds are like chattering monkeys and our thoughts come and go, but that doesn't mean we need to act on everything they say or even believe everything they say.
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Post by Annan on Mar 24, 2014 7:33:14 GMT -5
When I heard that someone hoped to do better in the coming days, it was always expressed with sorrow and sometimes tears. It just seemed that some lives were devoid of any joy or gladness or hope. It was a constant beat-yourself-up attitude of fear.
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Post by snow on Mar 24, 2014 17:37:13 GMT -5
When I heard that someone hoped to do better in the coming days, it was always expressed with sorrow and sometimes tears. It just seemed that some lives were devoid of any joy or gladness or hope. It was a constant beat-yourself-up attitude of fear. That's because guilt is so dominant in religion. Also humility is next to godliness, so it's sometimes partly that mindset. Some, it seemed very insincere but an obligatory phrase.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 7:36:01 GMT -5
To me, elevating belief over works is more exclusive and unfair than putting works over belief. We have more control over our works than we do over our beliefs. Thank YOU, Fixit! You have said what should be explained and repeated time after time.....the bible specifically tells us that the Father "draws" the person toward eternal life or attempt to find eternal life....also "faith or belief" is a "GIFT from God", salvation is the reward for that "belief or faith", and to increase our faith we have to rely on God to do that, even relying on God to keep that faith or belief in us.......so yes, "works are under our control" and THIS is the very reason that salvation is by faith.......because WE have NO control over that.....all we can do is accept the drawing, the washing by blood and water from repentance, the gift of salvation, the increase of our faith throughout our lives as well as our "understanding" of the God whom we're so in debt to and whome as Jesus told his host one time...that those of us who have had the worst or most sins that we have received grace from then we are going to be the ones found "Loving the Lord our God with All of our heart, mind, soul and strength." We learn from day one we cannot get into this eternal life without God.....PERIOD! So it still comes down to that VERY PERSONAL relationship with our God and SAviour, doesn't it? Otherwords, works=based salvation is easier to teach, easier to learn, easier to hold to in the sense of long term.....but what does it say about the "real relationship" with God and Saviour? Yes, I know some who practice such can espouse words that say they love the Lord their God....but what kind of love is that? Is it the kind of love that says "Lord, look at me how much I've done for you and others." Putting God into debt? Don't think that will work. Might have IF Jesus had never been and advent......seemed to be much of what the OT was about.....obedience and works....BUT the fact is that Jesus was promised before the world ever really began....being made in like unto God with sensibilities of great intellect and talents, capabilities etc would prove to be the undoing of most humans....they'd get into some kind of sin even if it was just disobedience.....so God knew that mankind was going to have to have some way they could become "sons of God" and being born again is the way....which does not include works.......it includes Father drawing, Saviour washing, sanctifying, Holy Spirit justifying.....every aspect of God has to be in on the individual's salvation....the individual has to LET that happen..... I think it's rather the case that we are led to do good works because it is innate within us, the Christ within. Then, there is always the malingering doubt that our works are not good enough or not sufficient to merit eternal salvation, and that is why we require the quality of divine grace, so that we don't turn into a race of rabid perfectionists. I like the book of Ecclesiastes in that regard, as it teaches that we should learn contentment, in this question of the insufficiency of our works, and also in our approach to our daily existence and being satisfied with the basic stuff of our lives. It's an anti-consumerist message that was written thousands of years ago. Combine that with godliness, and there is a great gain.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 7:38:07 GMT -5
I am sorry, but I thought salvation was determined at the Judgement. And "judgement begins in the house of God." meaning those who are, or were once, members of that household.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 19, 2014 7:40:04 GMT -5
Quite reasonable answer for any one of us, snow. I don't imagine very many people would feel like " I want to do WORSE in the coming days". Alvin No I don't imagine many would. I guess the difference might be the reason why we want to do better. Is it to please a God and get to heaven? Or, is it because we don't want others treated in inhumane ways for their sake? I don't do it for a God so I can get into heaven because I don't believe in that. I want to be better at it so that the world around me is a better, happier more loving place to be. Be a blessing not a curse mindset I guess. And that should be as true for a Christian. God's salvation is the Christ within. Which to me, is that the mission of our lives is not an externality to which we aspire in belief or works, but something already within which is innate and can be cultivated. If the process of living as a Christian doesn't result in a desire to make "the world around us a better, happier more loving place to be" then it's worthless, IMO.
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