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Post by déjà vu on Mar 14, 2014 23:01:53 GMT -5
do you believe this to be true? according to VOTisAlive.com forum
"How the Two-by-Two's Differ From Orthodox Christian Beliefs in What They DO Believe....."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 23:41:06 GMT -5
Nathan, that's only Matthew's opinion, is it not? And Jesus' And John's And Paul's And Peter's And Jude's.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 0:12:17 GMT -5
Nathan, don't you understand. Jesus might have said that you have to "endure to the end" but for many who don't believe, or even understand, what "endure" means this simply can't be true. But because Jesus is held in such esteem the only thing is to either a - ignore these words. b - say others redacted, misinterpreted or plain invented them.
Plain fact is that a thorough examination of what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID shows Him to be quite narrow minded, hierarchical and judgemental.
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Post by fixit on Mar 15, 2014 0:19:54 GMT -5
Plain fact is that a thorough examination of what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID shows Him to be quite narrow minded, hierarchical and judgemental. How did you come to the conclusion that Jesus was hierarchical? Do you think he put himself above the folks he was trying to help?
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Post by fred on Mar 15, 2014 0:38:06 GMT -5
Nathan, that's only Matthew's opinion, is it not? And Jesus' And John's And Paul's And Peter's And Jude's. Sorry, I didn't make it clear... It wasn't Matthew's opinion but Jesus own words in Matthew 24:14 " He that endures unto the end shall be SAVED."Yes, those are the words of our Saviour and I guess you are believing what he said is true? The next question then is, " who are those who will endure to the end?"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 0:39:51 GMT -5
here paul says some were saved BEFORE death
Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
i also seem to remember a verse where paul says that HE is saved BEFORE death
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Post by fred on Mar 15, 2014 0:46:12 GMT -5
Yes, those are the words of our Saviour and I guess you are believing what he said is true? The next question then is, " who are those who will endure to the end?" Here are those whom Jesus talked about.... in Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
That doesn't answer the question, Nathan.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 0:48:46 GMT -5
Sorry, I didn't make it clear... It wasn't Matthew's opinion but Jesus own words in Matthew 24:14 " He that endures unto the end shall be SAVED." Yes, those are the words of our Saviour and I guess you are believing what he said is true? The next question then is, " who are those who will endure to the end?" IMO those that accept Jesus Christ as thier savior and those that bear fruit...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 15, 2014 10:21:43 GMT -5
Nathan, don't you understand. Jesus might have said that you have to "endure to the end" but for many who don't believe, or even understand, what "endure" means this simply can't be true. But because Jesus is held in such esteem the only thing is to either a - ignore these words. b - say others redacted, misinterpreted or plain invented them. Plain fact is that a thorough examination of what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID shows Him to be quite narrow minded, hierarchical and judgemental. Yes, I know... Jesus said this also... in Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a FEW find it."
To MANY people Jesus is very judgemental, narrow minded, unreasonable person. It's His kingdom and He makes the RULES. If anyone wants to enter His kingdom must be willing to obey, and Pay attention to His household rules.A lot of people do not understand what Jesus meant when he said "Strait is the gate and narrow is the way." Most people consider this in the terms humans would only understand......"Strait" being a constrictive issue" and "narrow being something that is also constrictive. HOWEVER Jesus was speaking only of himself...HE IS THE GATE and HE IS THE WAY! That's what he means when he said "Strait is the gate and narrow is the way." It has nothing to do with human comprehension of what is found on earth in that phrase, it has to do with Jesus and only Jesus!
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Post by What Hat on Mar 15, 2014 13:49:19 GMT -5
Some years ago I concluded that we might have the wrong idea about "salvation" entirely. It didn't strike me as just, that the after life would reduce to either an eternity in Heaven or one in Hell. 30 years of reading the Bible left me skeptical that this explanation was correct. I've discovered that there are many close readings and scholarly analyses of the Bible that support my gut response. Anyone interested might have a look at www.tentmaker.org/ . I don't endorse their theology entirely, or anyone's, for that matter. But I think there's a lot to what they have to say. Here is a thought provoking paragraph from the site:
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Post by StAnne on Mar 15, 2014 14:01:29 GMT -5
do you believe this to be true? according to VOTisAlive.com forum "How the Two-by-Two's Differ From Orthodox Christian Beliefs in What They DO Believe....." I haven't read all of the thread - nor the link - but I'm left wondering what is meant by 'Orthodox Christian Beliefs' because not all orthodox Christian beliefs teach once-saved-always-saved - in fact - that concept is fairly limited in the overall scope of mainstream Christian teaching. I agree with Nathan that salvation is an ongoing process. We have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. But, unfortunately, we can also fall from grace thru mortal sin - sin unto death. 1 Jn 5:16, 1 Jn 5:17; Romans 6:16.
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Post by Persona non grata on Mar 15, 2014 14:35:00 GMT -5
do you believe this to be true? according to VOTisAlive.com forum "How the Two-by-Two's Differ From Orthodox Christian Beliefs in What They DO Believe....." I haven't read all of the thread - nor the link - but I'm left wondering what is meant by 'Orthodox Christian Beliefs' because not all orthodox Christian beliefs teach once-saved-always-saved - in fact - that concept is fairly limited in the overall scope of mainstream Christian teaching. I agree with Nathan that salvation is an ongoing process. We have been saved, we are saved, we are being saved. But, unfortunately, we can also fall from grace thru mortal sin - sin unto death. 1 Jn 5:16, 1 Jn 5:17; Romans 6:16. I agree.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 15, 2014 15:20:20 GMT -5
do you believe this to be true? according to VOTisAlive.com forum "How the Two-by-Two's Differ From Orthodox Christian Beliefs in What They DO Believe....." I haven't read all of the thread - nor the link - but I'm left wondering what is meant by 'Orthodox Christian Beliefs' because not all orthodox Christian beliefs teach once-saved-always-saved - in fact - that concept is fairly limited in the overall scope of mainstream Christian teaching. I agree with Nathan that salvation is an ongoing process. We have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. But, unfortunately, we can also fall from grace thru mortal sin - sin unto death. 1 Jn 5:16, 1 Jn 5:17; Romans 6:16. I have modified for clarity ... We have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. (When we fall from grace, if we confess our sins we may be restored to grace. 1 Jn 1:9; Jn 20:23)
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Post by Annan on Mar 15, 2014 15:33:48 GMT -5
This is a question that bothers my father very much. He is terrified to not be found in God's good graces. I don't know what the solution is for him. All I know is that it hurts to see him so fearful.
Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity. ~ Thomas Paine
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Post by What Hat on Mar 15, 2014 17:02:37 GMT -5
This is a question that bothers my father very much. He is terrified to not be found in God's good graces. I don't know what the solution is for him. All I know is that it hurts to see him so fearful. Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity. ~ Thomas PaineHow fluent is he with theology? If he's a Bible literalist, try something like www.amazon.com/The-One-Purpose-God-Punishment/dp/0802841864/ref=cm_cr-mr-titleOtherwise, a simple read, although the thinking is profound, is 'Love Wins' by Rob Bell. Either or both books may help to dispel his fears.
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Post by Annan on Mar 16, 2014 8:10:51 GMT -5
This is a question that bothers my father very much. He is terrified to not be found in God's good graces. I don't know what the solution is for him. All I know is that it hurts to see him so fearful. Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity. ~ Thomas PaineHow fluent is he with theology? If he's a Bible literalist, try something like www.amazon.com/The-One-Purpose-God-Punishment/dp/0802841864/ref=cm_cr-mr-titleOtherwise, a simple read, although the thinking is profound, is 'Love Wins' by Rob Bell. Either or both books may help to dispel his fears. Thank you!
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 16, 2014 9:11:12 GMT -5
"In the Grip of Grace", by Max Lucado is a book that has been a help to some people, with that fear, Annan. It is , sadly, a common fear amongst people in "legalistic" religions. One senior pastor advised me that one of the most difficult truths to get across to "survivors" "in" and "out" of these religions, or whatever, is contained in a simple phrase of a "childrens" song, which children surprisingly EASILY believe and can relate to, "Jesus loves me , this I know". Alvin
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Post by What Hat on Mar 16, 2014 21:09:07 GMT -5
"In the Grip of Grace", by Max Lucado is a book that has been a help to some people, with that fear, Annan. It is , sadly, a common fear amongst people in "legalistic" religions. One senior pastor advised me that one of the most difficult truths to get across to "survivors" "in" and "out" of these religions, or whatever, is contained in a simple phrase of a "childrens" song, which children surprisingly EASILY believe and can relate to, "Jesus loves me , this I know". Alvin Slowtosee, I don't understand why the fear would be any greater in a legalistic religion. Non-legalistic ones also believe in Hell, no? Someone leaving a non-legalistic church would surely be subject to the same fear as someone leaving a legalistic one: eternal damnation.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 16, 2014 22:58:02 GMT -5
I was thinking along the lines that more "fear" within groups that would not be teaching salvation by grace, but rather that salvation may be attained by hoping to DO more or better to please God by whatever "legalisms" the church might teach. e.g.- attend meetings faithfully, support the ministry, worshiping in the "correct' geographic location etc. etc. The "fear" being motivated by recognizing in ourself, that we never could "do" enough or "be" good enough or follow all the "legalisms" perfectly, even though one always desires to "do better in the coming days", and thus fearing God might not be pleased with "me", and "salvation is determined at death'. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 23:10:02 GMT -5
a better word than works is fruit, you must bear fruit...
Mat_7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat_13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Mar_4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. Luk_8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. Luk_13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Joh_15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 1:01:11 GMT -5
From Ross B's post
Before we left we asked the local Head worker if we died today could we be confident or assured of our salvation because of what Christ had done for us. His response was that the workers didn't want the friends to be too confident about their salvation. So we then asked the head worker if he died today would he be confident of His salvation. The answer was Yes, presumably because he was a worker.
So do the workers think they are better than Joe and Janet Saint? If so, what causes them to think that way?
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Post by christiansburg on Mar 17, 2014 5:52:16 GMT -5
Nathan, don't you understand. Jesus might have said that you have to "endure to the end" but for many who don't believe, or even understand, what "endure" means this simply can't be true. But because Jesus is held in such esteem the only thing is to either a - ignore these words. b - say others redacted, misinterpreted or plain invented them. Plain fact is that a thorough examination of what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID shows Him to be quite narrow minded, hierarchical and judgemental. Yes, I know... Jesus said this also... in Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a FEW find it."
To MANY people Jesus is very judgemental, narrow minded, unreasonable person. It's His kingdom and He makes the RULES. If anyone wants to enter His kingdom must be willing to obey, and Pay attention to His household rules.If you are going to say that Jesus was narrow minded you must to conclude that God was the same. Do you believe that God was right or wrong? A verse in Hebrews 1 says that he was the "express image of his person upholding all things by the word of his power."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 10:38:32 GMT -5
From Ross B's post Before we left we asked the local Head worker if we died today could we be confident or assured of our salvation because of what Christ had done for us. His response was that the workers didn't want the friends to be too confident about their salvation. So we then asked the head worker if he died today would he be confident of His salvation. The answer was Yes, presumably because he was a worker. So do the workers think they are better than Joe and Janet Saint? If so, what causes them to think that way? I recently asked an older brother worker about assurance of salvation and he said 'we don't want to be presumptuous about our salvation.' He then added that his Dad was assured of his salvation during his last few days on earth. My take-away from that was maybe it's okay to be assured at the end of life but not so much up to that point.
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Post by gecko45 on Mar 17, 2014 10:50:11 GMT -5
From Ross B's post Before we left we asked the local Head worker if we died today could we be confident or assured of our salvation because of what Christ had done for us. His response was that the workers didn't want the friends to be too confident about their salvation. So we then asked the head worker if he died today would he be confident of His salvation. The answer was Yes, presumably because he was a worker. So do the workers think they are better than Joe and Janet Saint? If so, what causes them to think that way? I recently asked an older brother worker about assurance of salvation and he said 'we don't want to be presumptuous about our salvation.' He then added that his Dad was assured of his salvation during his last few days on earth. My take-away from that was maybe it's okay to be assured at the end of life but not so much up to that point. That's how I have come to understand it. "Only God knows for certain" is the standard answer, but the closer a person is to death the greater the confidence is in their salvation.
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Post by Ted Carolus on Mar 17, 2014 11:36:08 GMT -5
This is something that I have studied and meditated on since last summer. I have intended to start another thread about our Eternal Security. By replying to this thread, I have hopefully commited myself to doing just that.
The debate about the security of one's salvation, or "Once Saved, Always Saved", has raged for hundreds of years. Martin Luther was very instrumental in putting forth the underpinnings of the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
As an introduction, I have come to what I believe is a better way to discuss this doctrine of security with a different name or heading: "The perseverence of our faith". When we express saving faith by responding in the affirmative to the stirring of the Spirit in our hearts, we begin a journey of faith. Thankfully, it is not left to my own human faith but rather, faith which comes from God himself. If salvation was based soley on my human faith, I would fail miserably. However, by God's sovereign choice and kind intention, he provides a faith that will not fail. It is the trials of our faith that show whether we have this God granted faith or not. I believe that this is what testifies to us being truly saved and thus have received the "gift of eternal salvation".
I know it is a tall order to explain but it is the greatest source of my joy in the Lord and I want desperately to share it to those who believe they can lose this indescribable gift of salvation.
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Post by Annan on Mar 17, 2014 12:21:41 GMT -5
I was thinking along the lines that more "fear" within groups that would not be teaching salvation by grace, but rather that salvation may be attained by hoping to DO more or better to please God by whatever "legalisms" the church might teach. e.g.- attend meetings faithfully, support the ministry, worshiping in the "correct' geographic location etc. etc. The "fear" being motivated by recognizing in ourself, that we never could "do" enough or "be" good enough or follow all the "legalisms" perfectly, even though one always desires to "do better in the coming days", and thus fearing God might not be pleased with "me", and "salvation is determined at death'. Alvin Exactly. ...one always desires to "do better in the coming days" I had to chuckle at that one. Heard it so many, many times.
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Post by snow on Mar 17, 2014 18:00:16 GMT -5
This is a subject that I find to be the hardest to listen to. It makes my heart sad that people feel they need to be saved. That they believe in a God that would judge them unworthy. That they believe there is such a place as hell and that they could ever go their for eternity. How can you believe a God of love and mercy could ever send anyone to an eternity of torment? Really? Think about that. It isn't possible, not if God is who he is said to be.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 18:19:50 GMT -5
God is FEAR and LOVE unlike the OT that was mainly FEAR with a dab of love...
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