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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 4:27:35 GMT -5
And what church is that. Do they have a web site? Uniting Bert. Pretty well known, do great work in missions,aged care,etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 4:36:09 GMT -5
Missions as Jesus showed us how? Age Care as in Jesus showed us how?
Been a lot of scandal in that church too over the years. I remember when the dissidents pushed to have women ordained. Some accused that faction of being one which secretly supported gays in the ministry, and even gay marriage. The dissidents hotly disputed that claim - until it was found to be true.
No thanks, I wouldn't join a church which followed the whims of the world.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 4:55:35 GMT -5
Bert open your eyes, go to as many Church's as you can. You will enjoy the experience, and it broadens your horizons, and is a real education. Don't leave out the Catholics, lots to learn there. But don't join up and become a member of any of them. That spoils it. Remember they all worship the same God.
I once was told, "It is a dirty duck that dabbles in the same pond". Probably about a different topic, but could apply to going to Church.
Scandal in Uniting,probably. Also in 2x2's, all Churches have that in common. They are a group of Human beings.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 5:24:05 GMT -5
I attend Mass at least once a year. Attend quite a few Greek Orthodox, too. Anglican, about two or three times a year.
I don't believe they are all the same God. Not for a nano-second. Particularly in the older churches I see a pagan god. In the newer ones I see a humanistic god.
Scandals are not what what you judge a church by. The real scandal is in doctrine, which everybody in the church agrees upon.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 5:41:42 GMT -5
Bert all Christian Church's have a similar doctrine based on Christ. That is why they are called Christians. The problem with the 2x2's is they forgot to write their doctrine down. That is why it changes from place to place. When you look at 2x2 doctrine, there is a bit of Catholic, Faith Mission, Masonic,etc. That is how WI designed it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 6:29:22 GMT -5
Yeah, can't figure out how he came by that 2x2 idea. Or gathering in homes. And actually getting people all over the world to actually do it ... and no "debates" about gay marriage, or women priests, etc.. And without writing any of it down. People have laid down their lives for this.
I watched Aronofsky's Noah, Mel Gibson's Passion of Christ, I pondered Charlon Heston's depiction of Moses and many other cultural touchstones which inform the general public of the bible. How did Irvine dream all this stuff up? The guy's a genius, I tell you.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jan 19, 2015 7:38:10 GMT -5
Yeah, can't figure out how he came by that 2x2 idea. Or gathering in homes. And actually getting people all over the world to actually do it ... and no "debates" about gay marriage, or women priests, etc.. And without writing any of it down. People have laid down their lives for this. I watched Aronofsky's Noah, Mel Gibson's Passion of Christ, I pondered Charlon Heston's depiction of Moses and many other cultural touchstones which inform the general public of the bible. How did Irvine dream all this stuff up? The guy's a genius, I tell you. So ... was that genius guy William Irvine really a prophet (his words)?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 7:50:56 GMT -5
No, he was just an egotistical exe who was clearly in love with himself.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 8:27:35 GMT -5
Yeah, can't figure out how he came by that 2x2 idea. Or gathering in homes. And actually getting people all over the world to actually do it ... and no "debates" about gay marriage, or women priests, etc.. And without writing any of it down. People have laid down their lives for this. I watched Aronofsky's Noah, Mel Gibson's Passion of Christ, I pondered Charlon Heston's depiction of Moses and many other cultural touchstones which inform the general public of the bible. How did Irvine dream all this stuff up? The guy's a genius, I tell you. WI copied it from from other doctrines, and added a bit of his own spin. He was a good talker, and people at that time did not have the information that is available to us now. So they believed it. But like so many others WI failed to live up to the standards he had set. He was Human. That is the problem, why pretend that 2x2's are any different to other Church's.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 8:53:39 GMT -5
Back to Christian Conventions of Victoria. It would be fair to ask questions about that charity.
Did it pay for Bill Carroll's lavish lifestyle. Did it pay for the property,etc at Rosebud. We are told it was owned by his Daughter May, where did she get the money. May, was married to Dolph Schulz who started as a Worker. He became a very successful Building Contractor.Was he helped by the charity.
These questions may never be answered as these people are dead, and financial records were not made known to the layity. However as donors to the charity, it would be fair to say we have a right to know.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 19, 2015 10:07:00 GMT -5
Thanks redback! List of Conventions in Australia 1908 thru 1974Shows for Dandenong: 1916 until 1974, except 1942 when Army was in occupation. Does anyone have any old Victoria convention lists that show the physical/street address for the conv. property and full names of the Fletchers? THanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 14:47:37 GMT -5
Cherie, Google "Brady Road Dandenong"and you will see where the M1 crosses over Brady Road. The Convention ground was on the lower side of the M1, exactly where it crosses over Brady. I drove that freeway many times, and used to feel sad as I passed that point. There were still some of the beautiful driveway pines standing beside the freeway. I note the freeway is now called Monash. I also note that there is a Fletcher Road close to where the Convention ground was situated. So maybe that property had been owned by the Fletchers for many years.
Also on that same map,go to the right on Brady Road, to road marked 9 (Stud Road). Turn left into 9. Where Stud Road crosses over that creek(Dandenong Creek) is where baptism took place. I was baptised there, 62 years ago.Not very private, cars used to pull up on Stud Road and strangers would be looking to see what was going on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 17:42:04 GMT -5
In an earlier post I mentioned the name Dolph Shulz. He built up a very large business. He went from building to doing earth works, all over Victoria. For roads, large buildings, etc. At each site a sign was put up "Shulz moves the Earth". I can still remember seeing those signs back in the 1950's. Unfortunately it was his undoing, as it sent him bankrupt.
I can remember at that time I was doing my training in Melbourne. I was a country lad, a bit ignorant, not very well educated. I had a very sheltered life. I boarded with a lovely couple in an outer suburb.He was the Elder of that Church, she was a housewife. One evening she said that Dolph had gone into "Liquidation". My ignorant reply was "I knew he was sick, but did not think he was that bad". Me thinking he was on a liquid diet.
When I went home at the weekend I told my Mother who nearly fell off the chair laughing. She then explained what liquidation meant. As I said my education was not good, I was pretty dumb. My Mother used to often remind me about that incident.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 20:23:26 GMT -5
Dolph also designed and built the meeting shed at Dandenong. It was a grand building. Bit light on for decoration, but structure was magnificent. Previously a tent had been used,became the childrens meeting tent. Because of the swell in numbers (Work of Walter Pickering and others) a shed was needed. There was many a meeting when I gazed up at those large oregon beams and the hardware that held them together. Sort of missed what the speaker was saying. My Mother used to say she often cut out a dress, and put it together during a meeting. Maybe that is why we missed the message.
That grand building, dare I say shed, is now at Drouin. Would love to see it for old times sake, But don't think I will be going to a Convention. Sorry, meant Annual Gathering, old habits die hard.
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aus1
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Post by aus1 on Jan 19, 2015 22:25:50 GMT -5
Redback, Thanks for the history, very interesting to read. In Western Australia,there are also pines at the old convention grounds at Canea. Whenever i hear wind whistling through pines it reminds me of Canea and the smell of convention stew!
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Post by magpie on Jan 20, 2015 0:29:30 GMT -5
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Post by magpie on Jan 20, 2015 0:39:06 GMT -5
No stop assuming that this is anyone else but the denied (formally Christians of Australia(& Victoria). )Dandenong was sold up yes some purchased for Freeway,but large portion "AUCTIONED" for valuable residentual developement. Trustees who signed sale section 32 were A(Dolph) Schultz,Norman Ruwalt & Gordon Gunst. Honerable honest pillars of Irvinism who kept honest by their underhanded denial. Did they tell you from the platform a crooked Mr Fredricks (lawyer) stole most of the proceeds of the sale? Enough to then buy about 10 tidy Suburban homes?
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Post by spiders on Jan 20, 2015 1:07:59 GMT -5
Good to hear from you Magpie.......do you know what the sale price was? Also the size of the parcel of land that was sold? Where the proceeds of the sale deposited into the "Christian Conventions of Victoria" trust fund?
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Post by magpie on Jan 20, 2015 4:24:08 GMT -5
Dear Spider,They are a dumb or mind controlled lot. 1/-Auction Vendor,Christian Assemblies of Australia.Trustees were at that time very high in the going to heaven according to the 2x2 way. Gordon Gunst,A (Dolph) Shultz,Norman Ruwolt. Only some land aquired for Freeway. The balance & other titles (2x2s claimed they never knew of any deed,or misplaced copies of deeds of trust between them and families who donated the "USE" of land for annual conventions only)were ,Major Pinchen,The Quick family(Mrs Con Doeke(who Con was ostracised) Daisy)the bebificery ),and Joseph Favolora.All these families and individuals estates were entitled to the sums of money raised by auction and portion purchased for freeway. "OH"we couldnt find deeds of trust? Then no families were called to work out entitlements,"IGNORED" (sound godly).So God has a sense of humor,with the help of a crooked lawyer that stole a major portion of proceeds of sale (Mr Fredricks)= to $$value around 10 tity outer suburban homes in value amount stolen,(was in media) ,the trustees and sect lost most of it.So if they left families out of it God said you cant have it either? Remember that Morris 1 Ton truck kept at Dandenong,it was registered/licenced in the name of "CHRISTIAN ASSEMBLIES OF VICTORIA (a 2x2 worked in Prior VIc/Roads see you cant hide really?)Wonder which or the honorable trustees signed the rego/licence papers,(as nameless of course) By the way leave Dave Fletcher out of your grabbing at straws. He owned a small adjoining farm nothing to do with Pinchen/Quick/Favalora titles (Dave's two daughters were 2x2s, sons very very respected successful Dandenong busnessmen,not sect followers).Remember as with other things as CSA,unbiblical celibate ministry demand,and visual judgement demands,etc,dont ask preachers/elders even one question without a couple of "strong"witnesses with you,you wont get a straight answer otherwise,and when you hear it back if at all, as you will be branded as a trouble maker the questions and answers will be unrecognisable,we know,so be strong and seek the Holy Spirits guidence if you confront as you will hit many brick closed walls.Its not an open embracing visable ministry or doctorine. (Remember to be exclusive you "MUST" be judgemental,and God dont like that either.
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Post by magpie on Jan 20, 2015 4:32:37 GMT -5
Me again Spider, I am so glad Arachnids dont bother me. Catch up some day.
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Post by spiders on Jan 20, 2015 6:25:48 GMT -5
Thanks magpie. Were the Pinchen/Quick/Favalora families all members of the 2x2 church? I seem to recall that the Lawyer Fredricks (do you know his first name?) was involved with some shady deals with one of the the Unions and was murdered. Do you know if this is correct? They certainly got in a lot of mess over the sale on the convention grounds by not doing things in the right way. BTW I quite like magpies!
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 20, 2015 12:50:50 GMT -5
Seems like the place to start investigating would be the courthouse where deeds are recorded. If the deed was recorded, as it should be, but sometimes owners dont or forget to do so, then the ownership trail should be easy to follow.
A company with expertise in titles could prepare a Ownership Title Report showing chain of title with copies of deeds/transfers of title. An attorney could review the deeds to see if they were properly prepared and executed.
If the OTR showed anything seriously questionable then the abstract could be examined by an attorney experienced in title examination, and he could provide a Title Examination Report. The TER would show any clouds on the title and what is necessary to remove them.
If title insurance was purchased by the new owners and there is a cloud on the title - they can pursue that route and file a claim with the title insurance co. who should take care of it for them.
I have an Abstractor license and worked for 15 years with a nationwide Title & Abstract company in USA. No doubt things are done somewhat differently in Australia...
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Post by magpie on Jan 20, 2015 17:03:27 GMT -5
Hello, Cherie and Spiders "fraudulant converson?". Mrs Fredericks wife murdered as a revenge killing.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 20, 2015 17:09:34 GMT -5
Hello, Cherie and Spiders "fraudulant converson?". Mrs Fredericks wife murdered as a revenge killing. I assume you mean MR. Frederick's wife--was this in the newspaper? When?
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msew
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Post by msew on Jan 20, 2015 19:08:40 GMT -5
Spiders, Magpie, Redback or Bert, do you know the address of the Rosebud or Rosebud West house the Carrolls lived in? It would be interesting to find out sometime, have my camera ready. Likely it will have been demolished or renovated but many here are still as they were in the fifties so chances are still high it will be the same. Am guessing it was close to the main Pt Nepean Road back then. I live in Rosebud.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 20:04:58 GMT -5
msew, some time ago we had a good friend in Melbourne try to find the property.She went to Council but was unable to locate it. Unfortunately the address given on any correspondence in those days was "Greenhaven"Rosebud,which is not of much help finding the property. Only the postie would be able to find that. Of course Rosebud was very rural in those days and the property may have not had a street address.
I could be wrong but feel it was close to Port Phillip bay. I remember young Workers who had spent their first 12 months there telling us they used to watch the boats going in and out to Melbourne. They also used to have a small boat that they went out in.
You needed to be either a Worker or an "A"lister to be invited to "Greenhaven". We never made it on either account. The people I knew who did make it sadly are now dead. Our friend did find the house that Dolph and May Shulz lived in. My memory is not good, but think it was Mont Albert. Wonder if any of their family are still around, that could shed some light on "Greenhaven". Our friend did find the graves of Bill and Maggie Carroll, and Dolph and May Shulz. She took photos of them. Sadly she had to scrub much bird poo off the graves before she could take the photo. How even great people get forgotten, I've got no hope of being remembered.
Best of luck msew, I wish you have more success than our friend.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 21, 2015 7:45:01 GMT -5
magpie - I sent you a private message.
(Look up to the top of your screen and click "Messages." )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 18:39:23 GMT -5
Spiders, Magpie, Redback or Bert, do you know the address of the Rosebud or Rosebud West house the Carrolls lived in? It would be interesting to find out sometime, have my camera ready. Likely it will have been demolished or renovated but many here are still as they were in the fifties so chances are still high it will be the same. Am guessing it was close to the main Pt Nepean Road back then. I live in Rosebud. Sorry msew, got it from a very reliable source "Greenhaven" is long gone. Knocked down many years ago, so put the camera away. You were right it was on Pt Nepean Road. Small cottage, not grand. Was owned by Dolph and May Shulz. A title search using that name, may find the location. Hope the information is of some help.
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