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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 12:46:32 GMT -5
Will you please answer my question?
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 18, 2013 12:59:24 GMT -5
Interesting that the petition would be put out asking for personal signatures when the writers themselves and people behind the website that publishes it, chose to hide their identity and refuse to be personally stand for the things they write!! This is the kind of hypocrisy that 2x2 is famous for!!! I would be glad to sign it --- but like Dennis suggests for himself, my signiture isn't going to do much good. Um.... I'm pretty sure everyone knows who I am. I sent it out to everyone on my contacts list through my personal email and pasted it to fb sites through my fb account. Pretty sure there is no anonymity there. ☆Arwen☆
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 18, 2013 13:02:04 GMT -5
And ppl are more than welcome to sign it anonymously. I would be the only one who would see their names or email address.
☆Arwen☆
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 13:17:01 GMT -5
And ppl are more than welcome to sign it anonymously. I would be the only one who would see their names or email address. ☆Arwen☆ " Sign it anonmously" !!! A complete farse of logic in my opinion .. Sounds like a cowards club ... not unusual in 2x2 circles (or on this board)
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Post by Mary on Dec 18, 2013 13:29:16 GMT -5
Are you calling people who are anonymous cowards, Edgar? A typical control tactic is calling a person who thinks differently from ourself, names, not to mention bullying tactic.
It is good to see professing people taking action like this.
It doesn't look anonymous to me: It clearly states the author who you can contact:
The Create, Publish, and Implement a Child Sexual Abuse Response Plan petition to The Fellowship Workers and Overseers was written by Alaina Salyers and is in the category Children's Rights at GoPetition. Contact author here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 13:36:19 GMT -5
I'm sorry you feel the need to call us cowards, Edgar. So far no one has signed it anonymously. I would encourage everyone to use their real names unless one of two things is true: 1) they are a friend who is very passionate about the issue of CSA and wants to do all they can to stop it but are not at the point yet where they don't fear the backlash that may come from signing it with their real name (which you may not think is a legitimate reason and think is "cowardly", but I would have to disagree) or 2) they are an ex-2x2 and don't want their name to detract from the petition by making people think it's all "bitter exes" that are signing it.
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Post by Mary on Dec 18, 2013 13:50:34 GMT -5
More people post anonymously on TMB than use their real name so guess more of the population agree with posting anonymously so most of the population are cowards according to some.
I think some people would be taken more seriously if they did post anonymously.
Guess making up our own profile picture can be seen as part of anonymously.
Sorry to distract from the theme of this thread except that anonymous is a theme too.
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Post by kencoolidge on Dec 18, 2013 14:14:46 GMT -5
Interesting that the petition would be put out asking for personal signatures when the writers themselves and people behind the website that publishes it, chose to hide their identity and refuse to be personally stand for the things they write!! This is the kind of hypocrisy that 2x2 is famous for!!! I would be glad to sign it --- but like Dennis suggests for himself, my signiture isn't going to do much good. Edgar/Dennis Feel Likewise ken
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 14:17:11 GMT -5
There is nothing cowardly or hypocritical about Ms.Salyers. The facts prove the opposite.
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Post by snow on Dec 18, 2013 14:22:49 GMT -5
I guess I could take out all the criticism... lol It is available for edit. And anyone can PM for suggestions, I'm taking this initiative on my own and an beginning already to be overwhelmed! My parents own the Clever convention grounds in Missouri where I just recently realized Ira Hobbs had been allowed to attend or convention. When I asked if my father knew him he said "Yeah! He sat in front of us!" *shudder* When I tried to see if they would ban him from the grounds, I was told "We can't be the 'Social Police!'" and "People just need to watch their own kids! They're too trusting." Yet, they defend the secrecy from the workers on the subject, by saying "What good would it do to tell everyone what so-and-so has done??!" This is what I've been moved to TRY and do. We shall see what comes of it! ☆Arwen☆ Please don't let anyone bully you. You have more support than you know. Those who support will likely sign it and not be in touch with you. However, you will hear from those opposed. Usually in the negative.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 14:46:55 GMT -5
Are you calling people who are anonymous cowards, Edgar? A typical control tactic is calling a person who thinks differently from ourself, names, not to mention bullying tactic. It is good to see professing people taking action like this. It doesn't look anonymous to me: It clearly states the author who you can contact: The Create, Publish, and Implement a Child Sexual Abuse Response Plan petition to The Fellowship Workers and Overseers was written by Alaina Salyers and is in the category Children's Rights at GoPetition. Contact author here. What kind of value does "Signing a petition anonymously" have besides indicating that the person doesn't have the courage to be personally identified with this issue that they claim is morally important to them. The whole principle behind signed petitions is the proof that real people are willing to support the ideas behind it. Sorry if it offends folks --- but yes, (as I have indicated many times before) I appreciate folks who have the courage to personlly stand behind the principles they claim to stand for on this board as well. And yes, I understand that a majority of posters on this board do it under camoflauge. And in my opinion most of the excuses given - are clearly just that "excuses for the lack of courage". But, I accept that it is the way things are on this board -- My feelings on the matter are not particularly representative -- but they are my feelings.
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 18, 2013 14:55:13 GMT -5
Are you calling people who are anonymous cowards, Edgar? A typical control tactic is calling a person who thinks differently from ourself, names, not to mention bullying tactic. It is good to see professing people taking action like this. It doesn't look anonymous to me: It clearly states the author who you can contact: The Create, Publish, and Implement a Child Sexual Abuse Response Plan petition to The Fellowship Workers and Overseers was written by Alaina Salyers and is in the category Children's Rights at GoPetition. Contact author here. What kind of value does "Signing a petition anonymously" have besides indicating that the person doesn't have the courage to be personally identified with this issue that they claim is morally important to them. The whole principle behind signed petitions is the proof that real people are willing to support the ideas behind it. Sorry if it offends folks --- but yes, (as I have indicated many times before) I appreciate folks who have the courage to personlly stand behind the principles they claim to stand for on this board as well. And yes, I understand that a majority of posters on this board do it under camoflauge. And in my opinion most of the excuses given - are clearly just that "excuses for the lack of courage". But, I accept that it is the way things are on this board -- My feelings on the matter are not particularly representative -- but they are my feelings. Congratulations on making this post all about you and your opinion, as opposed to its intented purpose. Very courageous! ☆Arwen☆
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 15:27:19 GMT -5
What makes you think this will go anywhere? What about all the others who have gone before this and have had no support from those on this board or their own family or meeting? Are you going to encourage workers and friends to apologies for not supporting others who have be willing to write letter and speak to workers, family and friends to their face about this issue??? I'm obviously not the one who wrote the petition, but I'll answer your questions from my POV. I have no reason to think this will go anywhere, but that is NOT a good excuse for not trying. As I am new to this board, I have no knowledge about ppl who have tried to do this before and had no support. If I would have been around at the time, they would have had my support. Just because others weren't supported in the past is no reason to not offer support this time around and any time in the future someone is brave enough to take a stand. If anything comes of this petition, I will gladly do my part to encourage they issue an apology. We ALL deserve an apology, IMO, for the way this has been swept under the rug and not handled properly. Way too many people have been hurt by this, it's not acceptable. I hope we have your support!
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 18, 2013 15:44:41 GMT -5
What makes you think this will go anywhere? What about all the others who have gone before this and have had no support from those on this board or their own family or meeting? Are you going to encourage workers and friends to apologies for not supporting others who have be willing to write letter and speak to workers, family and friends to their face about this issue??? I apologize for not answering your questions. I guess I took it as an incredulous response to something you thought was futile and stupid, and the use of all the question marks made it seem like you were upset and already knew the answers. :-P Like baf said... Just bc it's been ignored before is NO reason to stop trying. 1. I guess I hope that bc I've given a resource for setting up and implementing an actual system for educating ppl, it will be even more appalling if such an easy, clear solution is ignored. 2. I don't personally know anyone who has gone through this. Sorry? They can sign it if they want. I don't really know how you want me to answer that one... 3. This is just a start. I didn't put down in the preamble "You must force everyone who had anything to do with anything ever to apologize to those affected face-to-face, bc I wanted it to be formal yet personal and not rude, in your face, or accusatory. ☆Arwen☆
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 16:29:01 GMT -5
Congratulations on making this post all about you and your opinion, as opposed to its intented purpose. Very courageous! ☆Arwen☆ Arwen89 the issue has never been my courage or lack of it-- but rather the complete absence of moral dignity in an issue promoted by a person working under an alias, campaigning for a petition written by anonymous writers expecting anonymous signatures of people, in an attempt to give credibility to an issue that evidently even the authors are reluctant to take personal responsibility for. 2x2ism in a nutshell!!!! But a fiasco as far as moral honor, truth and openness is concerned. The issue of CSA is worth far more than this kind of compromise -- the very kind of compromise that has created the ugly problem in the first place. The 2x2 principle of 'concealing the truth whenever it may cause apparent difficulty'!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 16:40:29 GMT -5
Congratulations on making this post all about you and your opinion, as opposed to its intented purpose. Very courageous! ☆Arwen☆ Arwen89 the issue has never been my courage or lack of it-- but rather the complete absence of moral dignity in an issue promoted by a person working under an alias, campaigning for a petition written by anonymous writers expecting anonymous signatures of people, in an attempt to give credibility to an issue that evidently even the authors are reluctant to take personal responsibility for. 2x2ism in a nutshell!!!! But a fiasco as far as moral honor, truth and openness is concerned. The issue of CSA is worth far more than this kind of compromise -- the very kind of compromise that has created the ugly problem in the first place. The 2x2 principle of 'concealing the truth whenever it may cause apparent difficulty'!!! Based on your value system Edgar, you should be the #1 cheerleader for this petition. The petition has been written on a fully public site, by a person who gives her full name, and expecting real names to sign the petition. There is absolutely nothing about this petition that is "2x2ism in a nutshell", or at least your nutshell. You should be giving this young lady a score of 100% in your book. That something like this could occur within 2x2ism is so different from your stereotype that when it does happen right before your eyes, you can't recognize it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 16:53:11 GMT -5
Arwen89 the issue has never been my courage or lack of it-- but rather the complete absence of moral dignity in an issue promoted by a person working under an alias, campaigning for a petition written by anonymous writers expecting anonymous signatures of people, in an attempt to give credibility to an issue that evidently even the authors are reluctant to take personal responsibility for. 2x2ism in a nutshell!!!! But a fiasco as far as moral honor, truth and openness is concerned. The issue of CSA is worth far more than this kind of compromise -- the very kind of compromise that has created the ugly problem in the first place. The 2x2 principle of 'concealing the truth whenever it may cause apparent difficulty'!!! Why do you have a problem with someone trying to help stop/deal with a terrible thing? Though many of us posters on here are anonymous, as others have said it seems as if the initiator of the petition as well as all of the signers are not hiding in anonymity. And I'm sure if this ever gets to the workers they will be able to verify if the names are those of actual 2x2er's or not. Anti-2x2ism in a nutshell: "whenever the friends do something good, find something wrong with it!"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 17:04:39 GMT -5
Anti-2x2ism in a nutshell: "whenever the friends do something good, find something wrong with it!" Clearday why am I not surprised that you don't approve of my critisizm of 2 x2 ism? 2x2ism regards EVERYTHING they do as good!!! And EVERYTHING that other groups do as wrong!!
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Post by snow on Dec 18, 2013 17:09:58 GMT -5
Clearday why am I not surprised that you don't approve of my critisizm of 2 x2 ism? Edgar, I'm not sure why you are opposed to this particular petition? The person who initiated it put their real name on it. They weren't hiding behind anonymity.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 17:12:06 GMT -5
Clearday why am I not surprised that you don't approve of my critisizm of 2 x2 ism? 2x2ism regards EVERYTHING they do as good!!! And EVERYTHING that other groups do as wrong!! Even if the above hyperbole was accurate, that does not logically lead to the conclusion that EVERYTHING they do is wrong! I think most of your readers will conclude that that is your view, especially in the way you have condemned this petition. Just one little compliment for the petition would be kinda nice.
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Post by sapphire on Dec 18, 2013 17:21:44 GMT -5
I guess I could take out all the criticism... lol It is available for edit. And anyone can PM for suggestions, I'm taking this initiative on my own and an beginning already to be overwhelmed! My parents own the Clever convention grounds in Missouri where I just recently realized Ira Hobbs had been allowed to attend or convention. When I asked if my father knew him he said "Yeah! He sat in front of us!" *shudder* When I tried to see if they would ban him from the grounds, I was told "We can't be the 'Social Police!'" and "People just need to watch their own kids! They're too trusting." Yet, they defend the secrecy from the workers on the subject, by saying "What good would it do to tell everyone what so-and-so has done??!" This is what I've been moved to TRY and do. We shall see what comes of it! ☆Arwen☆ Arwen, I commend you for taking a stand, especially about the issue in your own back yard. Personally, I feel it is a slap in the face to ALL his victims that he is still allowed to attend meetings, period. I will never attend any meeting or convention where that man is present, and I certainly would NEVER allow my children anywhere near him. Maybe you should show your parents the very first, short letter Jean wrote detailing his abuse toward her, and then see if they are comfortable having him on their property? Also, should anything happen on their property, and it was discovered that they KNEW he was a pedophile and still allowed him to be there, I would think they could be help liable as well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 17:30:49 GMT -5
I am not trying to be rude. I have just been pounding my head against the wall for the past 3 years trying to get workers, friends and family to take this issue seriously.
I find most on here will agree with you that something needs to happen, but I have not seen much happen. I feel most talk a good line but do not have the willingness to actually speak up and confront the workers.
I have not received any support from my family, workers or friends in my fight for those who have been abuse. I do know what abuse feels like, I was abused for years as a child. I also know what it is to be shunned by worker, family and friends. At one time my husband and our two older son all professed and went to meeting. We were run out of meeting after we stood up for abused children in our meeting by Barry Barkley and his band of workers.
There are MANY like me out there, who have been pushed out for standing up against the abuse of workers and friends. I am sorry if I come off as being negative but I have lived through hell in the past 3 years because of being honest.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 17:39:13 GMT -5
How many people that go to meeting have been willing to discuss this issue with worker when they visit your home?
It you haven't why not?
How many have written a letter to their overseer and told them how they feel about CSA?
It you haven't YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. A PETITION WILL NOT CHANGE THIS. YOU NEED TO STAND UP IN YOUR OWN HOME AND SAY TO THE WORKERS, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME UNTIL YOU CHANGE HOW THIS IS HANDLED. STOP GIVING THEM MONEY. YOU HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE HOW THINGS ARE DONE ARE YOU WILLING FOR THE PRICE AND WHAT IT MIGHT COST YOU?
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Post by rational on Dec 18, 2013 17:43:34 GMT -5
CD and Arowen, do you not think a "shorter" version of this declaration would likely be accepted and penned then what is there? Also, to make the negative criticism very bfief but to the point? And reword all the positive reasons for the declaration be the point of the discussion? I'm just thinking of what people's first impression of the declaration and find that folks are not likely going to bother reading too much more then the declaration preamble! JMT's I agree with STR. The goals/action items need to be in the opening paragraph. It currently has more words than the Declaration of Independence.
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Post by Gene on Dec 18, 2013 18:27:07 GMT -5
Well, this won't make me popular, but I'm with Edward on this point: Signing a petition with a pseudonym defeats the purpose of a petition. A petition is not primarily about the number of names, fake or real, collected. It's about the number of people are willing to make a public stand about an issue that's important to them.
A pseudonym on a petition does not accomplish that.
Gene (withholding my last name out of cowardice)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2013 18:30:56 GMT -5
This petition needs to get forwarded on some of those mass emails to professing people. I'm sure many won't touch it with a 10 foot pole, but some would sign, and once it gains steam there may be others less afraid to put their name to it. If someone can arrange that, that would be wonderful!!!
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 18, 2013 18:44:40 GMT -5
How many people that go to meeting have been willing to discuss this issue with worker when they visit your home? It you haven't why not? How many have written a letter to their overseer and told them how they feel about CSA? It you haven't YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. A PETITION WILL NOT CHANGE THIS. YOU NEED TO STAND UP IN YOUR OWN HOME AND SAY TO THE WORKERS, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME UNTIL YOU CHANGE HOW THIS IS HANDLED. STOP GIVING THEM MONEY. YOU HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE HOW THINGS ARE DONE ARE YOU WILLING FOR THE PRICE AND WHAT IT MIGHT COST YOU? The workers don't come to my home, nor are they welcome. I have never given them money. My parents and in-laws, as well as most of my immediate family are all Stout professing ppl. Me making this will likely cause a lot of disdain and disgust from all of them. So I would say I'm willing for the cost. ☆Arwen☆
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 18, 2013 18:46:20 GMT -5
Congratulations on making this post all about you and your opinion, as opposed to its intented purpose. Very courageous! ☆Arwen☆ Arwen89 the issue has never been my courage or lack of it-- but rather the complete absence of moral dignity in an issue promoted by a person working under an alias, campaigning for a petition written by anonymous writers expecting anonymous signatures of people, in an attempt to give credibility to an issue that evidently even the authors are reluctant to take personal responsibility for. I don't even understand. My name is posted AS the author! What are you TALKING about??! ☆Arwen☆
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