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Post by fixit on Dec 19, 2013 7:06:24 GMT -5
To Fixit and other critics It is not that we are not onboard to stop CSA its that we won't back into the room so nobody knows who we are. I kinda resent that you would imply that I and others are not onboard. All due respect ken It might help if you explain what you meant in the following: Arwen Give me a break. This is not about edgar as you imply, seem more about you and your agenda being busted.Perhaps your feelings are hurt You seem to be suggesting that Arwen has a different agenda to yours. I think Arwin's agenda would be a good cause for you to support - even if only to provide some encouragement.
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Post by fixit on Dec 19, 2013 7:09:09 GMT -5
My name is Alaina Salyers. My mother and Father own the convention grounds in Clever, Missouri. I am 24. I have Brown hair and blue eyes. I will not be a part of a system that allows or covers up child abuse in any form. I also edited and shortened the petition (a little lol) just for you! ☆Arwen☆ Good for you arwen89 This is likely the kind of signature that has the chance of getting the attention of the 2x2 high councils -- a number of well known membership of good standing, with the courage to personally stand up for what they believe (in spite of the consequences) But for your sake, and the sake of the issue --- a significant number of others willing to do the same thing is important if there is to be effect. One of the dishonest sicknesses of much of the "concerned 2x2" movement is the obvious complete lack of courage to personally stand up for moral statements that need to be made. The 'alias' and 'anonymous' mindset (predominant on TMB (and Wings)) hardly lends any kind of credibility to issues that desperately need changing. Until that changes (which is rather doubtful it ever will !)-- no significant changes will be made --- And in light of that, "don't hold your breath"!!! I'm not sure that your bull-in-a-china-shop approach has resulted in significant changes Edgar - even with the use of your real name.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 7:21:42 GMT -5
I agree, Edgar, (not Dennis, I'm sorry I got the wrong name in there) If the person posting here, calling her/him self Arwen, would just tell us who they are, it seems it would be more honest and more likely to get responses.
The subject of CSA is too serious to work towards a solution by such an anonymous route. PS. The petition is also too long & needs more structure
My name is Alaina Salyers. My mother and Father own the convention grounds in Clever, Missouri. I am 24. I have Brown hair and blue eyes. I will not be a part of a system that allows or covers up child abuse in any form. I also edited and shortened the petition (a little lol) just for you! ☆Arwen☆ You forgot to give us your Social Security number and bank account number!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 7:31:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure that your bull-in-a-china-shop approach has resulted in significant changes Edgar - even with the use of your real name. No fixit --- It has made some very significant and wonderfully positive changes for me and my family ... but maybe significant change is too much to expect for 2x2ism. Jesus did warn against a 'new patch on an old garment' (lest the rent be made worse) This is still my basic conviction on the issue. But in normal issues for folks pressing for reasonable change in an organization -- openness, honesty and courage are a good starting point. Extremely rare qualities in 2x2ism --- but all credit goes to Alaina. Surely wish her well. Our family in September 2013
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 7:57:12 GMT -5
I do not think we are being critical of this issue being brought forth. I think most of us who have been around for a long time understand that this issue has been around and dealt with in many different ways and CSA is still happening. Until the majority of friends are on board and hold the overseers and those in power accountable for their actions nothing is going to change. Until they have no places to stay and no money to spend I don't think anything will change.
We do need young blood in this fight, but please understand the wisdom of those who have gone before you and have experienced hurt and pain because of their stand against abuse.
We all need to work together in this fight against abuse. This brings out a very emotional side of most people and sometimes we react instead of being thoughtful. I am speaking for myself here. The bottom line is we all want the abuse to stop and for workers to make wrongs, right. How this is accomplices I don't know but to fight among ourselves is not going to get this done.
Please understand that do matter the outcome of this fight. Those who stand for what is right will not be alone. They may feel alone among their own family and friends but, their are friends and ex-friends all over the world that stand with you. Keep fighting how ever you can for the abused among us. May God give you the wisdom and strength to continue.
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Post by uker260702 on Dec 19, 2013 7:59:08 GMT -5
My name is Alaina Salyers. My mother and Father own the convention grounds in Clever, Missouri. I am 24. I have Brown hair and blue eyes. I will not be a part of a system that allows or covers up child abuse in any form. I also edited and shortened the petition (a little lol) just for you! ☆Arwen☆ You forgot to give us your Social Security number and bank account number! Some people are just never happy! Seriously, Well done to arwen for taking this stand even though it may have consequences with family, friends, and the workers. In and of itself it may not even have a great effect but its one more stand against csa in the fellowship. Who knows where it may lead in terms of the something being done, or affecting someone else to take action.
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Post by col on Dec 19, 2013 8:20:40 GMT -5
I know there are those who cannot reveal their identity on here,for various reasons, but there must be many many friends who can sign, they just need more prayers & encouragement to speak up & stand up for what they know is wrong & being covered up. Please sign this petition, we need a lot of signatures to make a difference, Col
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2013 11:02:15 GMT -5
It will not be the name count that will make the petition sink or swim. It will be the merit of the petition and the reasonableness of what is being petitioned. No, I agree. I was responding to the person who felt that a large number signing the petition would give the workers an understanding that a lot of people were behind it and also that the more people that signed it would encourage others to sign it too. I was trying to point out that the workers could claim there weren't as many as it appeared if people could sign and be anonymous. What hasn't been considered is that the workers who are the targeted recipients of said petition know good and well that they have been able to contain the "fallout" of the legalities of CSA within the workership! The workers know that the most faithful in the 2x2 fellowship still don't believe such things go on in the fellowship/workership and those who have had small doubts about the veracity of the legal processes that some have had to face, the workers themselves have "comforted" those weak links and strengthened them again to pay no heed to what is said or mentioned in adversity of the workership. Otherwords, the workers have gone around dusting the stuff back under the proverbial carpet....the workers pretty well know they have under their thumbs, willingly. So only those on the edge and about to fall from grace of the workers may well be dismissed as being "weak" believers of the workers' importance to their salvation and the workers probably will be glad when these said people just up and leave the fellowship because then the workers can show the most faithful that htose who brought the distressing news were disgruntled members of the workers' church and now have fallen away. otherwords those who leave the fellowship, workership are people who've been sitting on the edge of salvation for a long time, etc.....this is what kind of rumors go around about those who leave, even those who leave have tried to tell all and the workers have gradually pushed them on out due to being severely worn out trying to clean up the worekrship and fellowship.....discourage is a big part of the process.....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2013 11:18:16 GMT -5
Thank you Arwen for your open approach. Don't listen to the critics here, if what you have done makes one more person aware and prevents the abuse of one child that would be great. I took the opportunity to share on my Facebook page. Some have offered constructive criticism! In order to not tax the hopeful recipients of said petition, it is preferable to keep the petition brief and concise. Some on here are experienced writers of different types of writings and do know what kind of forms do get the recipients' attention! I don't think there is one person on TMB that does NOT want CSA wiped off the face of the earth. Some of us have actually been victims ourselves and some of us cannot hope for restitution because our situations happened many years ago and the statutory limitations are gone! Plus most likely our abuser is quite dead and buried, and most likely has crumbled into nothing but dust and ashes! So for anyone on here to "read" that one TMB member or more then one is NOT against CSA in the fellowship/workership! I remember the story about the rich man and Lazarus....they both died and Lazarus was in ABraham's bosom and the rich man was in torment. The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to him to wet his tongue for he thirsted and was overheated! Abraham told the rich man that there was a fixed gulf between them and besides if the rich man's relatives didn't believe Moses, why would the rich man to expect them to pay heed to Lazarus or Abraham just because they were "risen" from the grave. This CSA issue in the workership/fellowship is much like the rich man and Lazarus' life while on earth....the rich men(those in power) do not seek to give sustenance to the bleeding and injured victims of CSA! But they will work overtime to keep or regain the offending parties in the workership....restoring one of their peers is vitally necessary for the workershp to stay in reputation! The "reputation" of the work must NOT suffer loss, regardless of who is run over in the process! I was told by a worker in power for me not to seek to tell him one more negative story about any of his peers!.....so I knew it was a lost cause to get this man to recognize that Lazarus was hurting and nigh unto death, but the rich man wasn't paying one heed to the injured and dying people....those caused injury by the workers/friends! I can almost hear the workers after they pass on, pleaing with Abraham to let these poor injured souls to go to earth and tell their peers that are still alive just what IS right and just what they will suffer in the eternal realm! But IF they don't hear it now, they won't pay one bit attention after some of them have died and the victims are risen and are to tell the survivors just what awaits them. So in essence, we have workers who WILL not listen even when the courts of the land have penalized some, so how would it be possible for us to consider they are going to listen to one little petition? There's letters and forms of CSA reccomendations gone out to the workers all over the place and what has it done? Not a whole lot in changing how the workers seek to deal with the scourge!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 11:26:31 GMT -5
No, I agree. I was responding to the person who felt that a large number signing the petition would give the workers an understanding that a lot of people were behind it and also that the more people that signed it would encourage others to sign it too. I was trying to point out that the workers could claim there weren't as many as it appeared if people could sign and be anonymous. What hasn't been considered is that the workers who are the targeted recipients of said petition know good and well that they have been able to contain the "fallout" of the legalities of CSA within the workership! The workers know that the most faithful in the 2x2 fellowship still don't believe such things go on in the fellowship/workership and those who have had small doubts about the veracity of the legal processes that some have had to face, the workers themselves have "comforted" those weak links and strengthened them again to pay no heed to what is said or mentioned in adversity of the workership. Otherwords, the workers have gone around dusting the stuff back under the proverbial carpet....the workers pretty well know they have under their thumbs, willingly. So only those on the edge and about to fall from grace of the workers may well be dismissed as being "weak" believers of the workers' importance to their salvation and the workers probably will be glad when these said people just up and leave the fellowship because then the workers can show the most faithful that htose who brought the distressing news were disgruntled members of the workers' church and now have fallen away. otherwords those who leave the fellowship, workership are people who've been sitting on the edge of salvation for a long time, etc.....this is what kind of rumors go around about those who leave, even those who leave have tried to tell all and the workers have gradually pushed them on out due to being severely worn out trying to clean up the worekrship and fellowship.....discourage is a big part of the process..... When workers look at the increasingly gaping spaces of empty seats at convention, lower and lower attendance at gospel meeting, less frequent attendance at Wednesday night meetings, do you really think they figure they have it all under control and all is well? When they lose almost half of their friends in Vietnam, things are under control? When you have an overseer and his deputy spend jail time over CSA legalities do they really feel they have the legalities under control? Sure, they keep telling people they have things under control, that they are doing something (unspecified) about the problem and that people who leave weren't really in it anyway.......but they aren't fools for the most part. The senior ones know things are shaky while many of them are deluded by their perceived exclusive status. The senior overseers have the numbers at their fingertips and know exactly what has been happening over the last 20 years.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2013 11:33:02 GMT -5
What hasn't been considered is that the workers who are the targeted recipients of said petition know good and well that they have been able to contain the "fallout" of the legalities of CSA within the workership! The workers know that the most faithful in the 2x2 fellowship still don't believe such things go on in the fellowship/workership and those who have had small doubts about the veracity of the legal processes that some have had to face, the workers themselves have "comforted" those weak links and strengthened them again to pay no heed to what is said or mentioned in adversity of the workership. Otherwords, the workers have gone around dusting the stuff back under the proverbial carpet....the workers pretty well know they have under their thumbs, willingly. So only those on the edge and about to fall from grace of the workers may well be dismissed as being "weak" believers of the workers' importance to their salvation and the workers probably will be glad when these said people just up and leave the fellowship because then the workers can show the most faithful that htose who brought the distressing news were disgruntled members of the workers' church and now have fallen away. otherwords those who leave the fellowship, workership are people who've been sitting on the edge of salvation for a long time, etc.....this is what kind of rumors go around about those who leave, even those who leave have tried to tell all and the workers have gradually pushed them on out due to being severely worn out trying to clean up the worekrship and fellowship.....discourage is a big part of the process..... When workers look at the increasingly gaping spaces of empty seats at convention, lower and lower attendance at gospel meeting, less frequent attendance at Wednesday night meetings, do you really think they figure they have it all under control and all is well? When they lose almost half of their friends in Vietnam, things are under control? When you have an overseer and his deputy spend jail time over CSA legalities do they really feel they have the legalities under control? Sure, they keep telling people they have things under control, that they are doing something (unspecified) about the problem and that people who leave weren't really in it anyway.......but they aren't fools for the most part. The senior ones know things are shaky while many of them are deluded by their perceived exclusive status. The senior overseers have the numbers at their fingertips and know exactly what has been happening over the last 20 years. The workers' point in all of this is to keep the work's reputation "clean and undefiled" or the appearance of the work clean and undefiled. The amount of fornication within the workership is staggering and this is the very reason present day workers do not feel they can turn on any of their peers, even those some of their peers "fornication" is a crime! The restoration of a worker is th enumber one drive for the workers...although it is fast becoming that as the workers fall out of the work due to being charged and if not prosecuted by the authorities, this will leave the "money" to those who struggle on through. I'm confident that this is the very vital issue of the "why" the workers in power are not doing more to scourge the workership and then the fellowship of CSA and rapist perps. They can't do it, for those criminals are likely well informed about each of the workers' worker life and how much fornication any of them have participated in! The sexual appetites of the workers have always been a problem for the workership, so the powerful keep all under the proverbial carpet primarily because they all in their youthful lust did something that wasn't godly!
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Post by snow on Dec 19, 2013 12:45:10 GMT -5
Keep going! Don't let anything sway you from this petition. Remember no one has done what you have done other than those involved with WINGS. So who are they to discourage or criticize you? The only comment that I do agree with in the form of criticism is it needs to be shorter and more concise. Other than that, I back you and wish you amazing results. I know it takes courage to speak up in this religion. Especially about something they are trying to sweep under the rug. All the best to you.
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 19, 2013 12:45:47 GMT -5
I do not think we are being critical of this issue being brought forth. Yes you were. Do I need to quote your previous posts? I think most of us who have been around for a long time understand that this issue has been around and dealt with in many different ways and CSA is still happening. Until the majority of friends are on board and hold the overseers and those in power accountable for their actions nothing is going to change. Hence: The petition and emails. We do need young blood in this fight, but please understand the wisdom of those who have gone before you and have experienced hurt and pain because of their stand against abuse. If everyone in history had Newberry faint for something they were passionate about, just bc somebody else had already tried and failed, nothing would have ever gotten accomplished. The fact that others have gone before me and done their best gives me even more of a chance. Don't you see that?? In the first 24 hours of this petitions existence, I recieved more negative feedback and discouragement from ex 2x2s on this site than from anyone/anywhere else. To the point where I thought "What's the point? Why bother? This is exhausting." I was discouraged by the derogatory comments made by you all! Thanks to those who support this, even silently. It DOES make all the difference. ☆Arwen☆
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 12:56:34 GMT -5
Don't despair arewen89. The petition is already successful. It is raising awareness which affects behaviour. We will never be able to measure how effective it has been in that regard but we do know that awareness always leads to behaviour change.
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 19, 2013 13:05:46 GMT -5
There are plenty of us exes who fully support you in your efforts! Some exes on here don't want to see any positive change in the fellowship. They tend to attack any and all who try to bring about positive change, or who work to bring awareness to issues without the desire to harm the fellowshi through doing so. I certainly understand your "this is exhausting" comment. Don't let people who have no desire to help get you down. Ignore them, and concentrate on those who support you in your efforts. It isn't even worth engaging some people in dialogue here, as they will never accept that they might be wrong. Discussion to them is simply another way of pushing their personal vendetta against the fellowship. On occasion I get drawn into such dialogue still, as on some issues I have a tough time being silent. Often it is best to just state your position, respond to those who have a desire to engage in a normal discussion, and ignore those who simply want to beat their chests and screech like a monkey having a bad hair day......
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Post by snow on Dec 19, 2013 14:08:41 GMT -5
Often it is best to just state your position, respond to those who have a desire to engage in a normal discussion, and ignore those who simply want to beat their chests and screech like a monkey having a bad hair day...... LOL how apt a description is that!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 14:37:07 GMT -5
Once, in speaking publicly to an audience of hundreds, I mentioned that in my day, merely saying Praise the car!" did not do my old muscle car justice, so I had always said something, like, "it goes like a scalded monkey!"
If my memory serves me correctly, Scott, just a youngster, was in attendance and got quite a kick out of my expression, as did many others judging by the outbreak of laughter. Monkeys can be used to illustrate lots, huh, Scott?
My point then (sobering people up quickly) and how I believe even yet today? "I feel the same type of description should be used instead of just the words, 'Praise God!' rather, something like, 'My God has redeemed me from the everlasting consequences of my sin in life!'"
For those interested, "I repented" not signing the petition. Did so, used my real name, and explained why I signed it in the comment.
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Post by gecko45 on Dec 19, 2013 15:08:31 GMT -5
I commend the courage of the person who began the petition. Also to each who have the courage to have thier names there for all to see.
Perhaps I am cowardly, but I fear the repercussions I would face from the friends and workers if my name were on that list.
An anonymous name on an online petition is of little value, but not entirely valueless. I am embarrassed but that is really the most I can feel safe with doing at this juncture in my life.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 15:18:42 GMT -5
I commend the courage of the person who began the petition. Also to each who have the courage to have thier names there for all to see. Perhaps I am cowardly, but I fear the repercussions I would face from the friends and workers if my name were on that list. An anonymous name on an online petition is of little value, but not entirely valueless. I am embarrassed but that is really the most I can feel safe with doing at this juncture in my life. My friend, I understand your position and internal conflict, as would anyone knowing your situation and circumstances, including Edgar, I am certain. Surely, thus far, hyperbole whether my own or another's has not proven itself worthy of its expression. Aren't we glad we are not the finished product yet? I am!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 15:32:34 GMT -5
Hi Arwen, Can I put your petition on my CSA 2x2 message board. Some of the friends, workers, and myself have tried to warn about CSA within our fellowship 13 yrs ago.
2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=aa&action=display&thread=52
Good Job! by the way. There are MANY of us, support your work to stamp out CSA within the 2x2 fellowship/ministry and in the world ... A good way to be supportive Nathan would be to sign the petition.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 15:34:59 GMT -5
I commend the courage of the person who began the petition. Also to each who have the courage to have thier names there for all to see. Perhaps I am cowardly, but I fear the repercussions I would face from the friends and workers if my name were on that list. An anonymous name on an online petition is of little value, but not entirely valueless. I am embarrassed but that is really the most I can feel safe with doing at this juncture in my life. Signing it might have negative consequences beyond yourself. Your access to certain information has been valuable and that might dry up if you put your name on the petition.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2013 16:27:05 GMT -5
Sorry to offend you. After 1 week you are ready to give up? Some have been dealing with this issue for YEARS. If you let a little negativity get to you, nothing will ever get changed.
Did you read my whole post or just the first line. You might want to show some respect to your elders on this board. They have experienced a lot more hurt and disappointment regarding "Truth" then you have.
There is not one person on this board that has not experienced being cut down at one time or other. That is the nature of this board. I do know how hurtful it can feel. You started a petition and act like no one has addressed this issue before. Sorry if some of us are a little testy when we have wrote workers, friends and family about this and have suffered negative consequences from it.
Most people on this board do care and are willing to share their identity in PM. Be grateful you have Rat on your side on this issue!
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Post by rational on Dec 19, 2013 16:44:12 GMT -5
I also edited and shortened the petition (a little lol) just for you! There are great authors in the US like F. Scott Fitzgerald and John Steinbeck. One of the things that made their work good was the fact that they worked with editors. You need to have someone familiar with editing look at the text and make it do what you want it to do. You still have about 600 more words than the entire Declaration of Independence and no clear call to action until the end of the tract. Consider the opening paragraph of the Declaration of Independence: When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. This is a petition as well. And the reader knows what is being petitioned before they read 100 words. You wait for them to read way over 1,000 words before there is a hint of a call to action. Or then, you may like it the way it is.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 19, 2013 17:11:47 GMT -5
My name is Alaina Salyers. My mother and Father own the convention grounds in Clever, Missouri. I am 24. I have Brown hair and blue eyes. I will not be a part of a system that allows or covers up child abuse in any form. I also edited and shortened the petition (a little lol) just for you! ☆Arwen☆ You forgot to give us your Social Security number and bank account number! Thank you, arwen.
It isn't a matter of your editing the petition for anyone here!
Ask someone who knows how to write effectively to help you edit it for the sake of the petition, -not for anyone else.
Have you ever had a class on writing?
We were told at a writing class in which I was enrolled, if it is just praise for your writing, that you want, you can get praise from your mother, -but if you want to improve your writing skills then we are here to help you.
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Post by snow on Dec 19, 2013 20:02:34 GMT -5
I commend the courage of the person who began the petition. Also to each who have the courage to have thier names there for all to see. Perhaps I am cowardly, but I fear the repercussions I would face from the friends and workers if my name were on that list. An anonymous name on an online petition is of little value, but not entirely valueless. I am embarrassed but that is really the most I can feel safe with doing at this juncture in my life. Count me as cowardly also. It's the "what are you doing hanging around on those sites?" questions that I fear more than my name on the petition itself. If a link to the petition was sent to me on a mass email that I could see was sent to many other professing people, then it would be easier to sign since everyone would know about it and how could you not support the cause? Right now, I fear signing my name because others may think it's only those colluding with "bitter exes" that have signed it in an attempt to bring down the church. I'm not sure anonymous names would help at all in this case. I think a fake name or no name could give people ammunition to say that the ballot box was stuffed and the whole thing was rigged, look how dishonest this is, etc... The sad thing is, you should not have to worry about being on sites like this and face condemnation.
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Post by Gene on Dec 19, 2013 20:07:07 GMT -5
I'm not sure that your bull-in-a-china-shop approach has resulted in significant changes Edgar - even with the use of your real name. No fixit --- It has made some very significant and wonderfully positive changes for me and my family ... but maybe significant change is too much to expect for 2x2ism. Jesus did warn against a 'new patch on an old garment' (lest the rent be made worse) This is still my basic conviction on the issue. But in normal issues for folks pressing for reasonable change in an organization -- openness, honesty and courage are a good starting point. Extremely rare qualities in 2x2ism --- but all credit goes to Alaina. Surely wish her well. Our family in September 2013Fabulous family photo, Edgar. Thanks for sharing it! G
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Post by Gene on Dec 19, 2013 20:08:31 GMT -5
I do not think we are being critical of this issue being brought forth. Yes you were. Do I need to quote your previous posts? I think most of us who have been around for a long time understand that this issue has been around and dealt with in many different ways and CSA is still happening. Until the majority of friends are on board and hold the overseers and those in power accountable for their actions nothing is going to change. Hence: The petition and emails. We do need young blood in this fight, but please understand the wisdom of those who have gone before you and have experienced hurt and pain because of their stand against abuse. If everyone in history had Newberry faint for something they were passionate about, just bc somebody else had already tried and failed, nothing would have ever gotten accomplished. The fact that others have gone before me and done their best gives me even more of a chance. Don't you see that?? In the first 24 hours of this petitions existence, I recieved more negative feedback and discouragement from ex 2x2s on this site than from anyone/anywhere else. To the point where I thought "What's the point? Why bother? This is exhausting." I was discouraged by the derogatory comments made by you all! Thanks to those who support this, even silently. It DOES make all the difference. ☆Arwen☆ You're doing a great thing, Arwen. Don't be discouraged!
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Post by arwen89 on Dec 19, 2013 20:40:27 GMT -5
Hi Arwen, Can I put your petition on my CSA 2x2 message board. Some of the friends, workers, and myself have tried to warn about CSA within our fellowship 13 yrs ago.
2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=aa&action=display&thread=52
Good Job! by the way. There are MANY of us, support your work to stamp out CSA within the 2x2 fellowship/ministry and in the world ... Absolutely! Please do! ☆Arwen☆
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