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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 16, 2014 11:43:26 GMT -5
It's not, to be honest. I recently wrote a letter to my local brother workers telling them they weren't welcome in my home bc of the corruptness of the system. That I had no more trust in the system that had been dishonest and allowed offenders to continue offending. They responded with the standard "Abuse of any kind is not tolerated and if you know of any, report to the proper authorities." They also told my parents that they had some sort of system of education for the workers at up, but wouldn't expand on what. Why they couldn't type that up to inform any who are worried, is beyond me. By not explaining that they are getting training, it indicates that they care more about not looking like a religious organization taking training from other (allegedly false) religious organizations than they care about alleviating the worries of parents. They don't want people to know about what training they are taking because it makes them look like a normal minister from the "false religious world". They think that the basis of survival for their ministry group is to appear more righteous than all other ministry groups. Hence, they don't want anyone to know they are getting trained from the worldly ministry groups. I would expect that they are referring to the MinistrySafe course. MinistrySafe may be fine for a first step, but it's only a first step and unfortunately, it is mostly focused on how to protect ministry personnel who are not offending. It alleviates the worries of ministry worried about false accusations but it doesn't do a whole lot to prevent abuses or deal with them after the fact. I wonder how many workers take the MinistrySafe course and now feel "Yep, I took the course and now I know all I need to know about this subject!" Their attitude toward you is cold and completely lacks empathy. This is far too common among workers. When faced with a concern, they go back into their shell with a line from the Worker Handbook as a defensive mechanism when they should be reaching out to understand and help people with concerns. You gave them the perfect opportunity for them to reach out and bring you back on board, but by their cold and inadequate response, they probably accomplished the opposite. My knowing who her local workers are makes this attitude of theirs to cause me more depression and disgust. I've known these workers nearly all of my life and my disappointment in their failure to fully embrace being "educated or informed" about the criminality of some of their "sexusal" behaviors coming to a point in that they are actually "fearful" of learning about it. It is possible that they, too, are guilty of "sexual crimes" and this is why they cannot embrace anyone's efforts to bring the fellowship up to snuff on "obeying the laws of the land, which the bible has certainly taught that. But I do fear for some of them that cannot admit to themselves just where they or any other worker have been in regards to committing a real crime and furthermore they cannot repent IF they do not recognize their own failures in these things...OH what might have been will be their cries! I'm weeping as I write this....for surely some of them not coming to grasp of their own truths will have only seen their "rewards" through the "worshipping" by the friends and younger workers! I know some cannot admit their infallibility on this criminality for they would "lose" their lifelong career. Leslie White sticks out to them as a very possible thing for themselves! Oh may God deal with them as he dealt with David and his adultery and murdering of the woman's husband.....God forgave David of that, did He not? Is not the blood of Jesus Christ enough to save anyone from their sins/crimes? IF we do not have that kind of "faith" in Jesus' blood then we are most all poor dogs and bound for a lost eternity. It is by faith we are saved! And it is a necessity to repent which means acknowledging our own sins and pleas for the Lord's grace through the blood of the Lamb!
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 16, 2014 13:05:15 GMT -5
The petition isn't reaching many friends or workers.I would disagree with that statement Jesse. I know of some workers who have contacted me discussing the petition, and whether WINGS was involved in creating it some way. (which we are not). I also know that there are a some workers who have discussed it with each other, after sharing the link to it. What is interesting to me about this, is it was created by an individual who was NOT a part of any group (such as WINGS) who has been dealing with these sorts of issues, and it is from the daughter of a convention ground owner. (and incidentally.... another convention ground owner contacted me and commented about it and expressed support about it) As expressed above by Arwen89: Obviously, this petition has raised questions in the minds of her parents, which have appear to have been inadequately answered. Although Arwen89 is still going to meetings, her home has become one of many that is now hanging out "The Inn is Closed" sign for workers. As I mention, people who love the fellowship and their local meetings are relying less and less on the workers, because the workers are losing trust and respect by many members. To close off one's home certainly shows this lack of trust and respect. While this is someone who was B&R in the fellowship, we have also seen this in the situation with the couple who have worked hard to get answers to their questions concerning sexual immorality within the ranks of workers. That home is also closed off, and they no longer attend meetings. The more I hear, the less these situations appear to be random isolated acts. Many simply do not discuss these issues with the workers, and tend to stop attending the gospel meetings, or inviting workers over to stay.
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Post by snow on Mar 16, 2014 13:51:57 GMT -5
Jesse actually makes a point I never thought about before. The workers preach about persecution by the world for being different. It is almost considered to be more Godly to have the world speak out against you and persecute you because in some weird twisted logic it means you must be on the right track. So when there are petitions they deem it to be persecution and that makes them dig in their heels. Look at how the workers and friends viewed the court cases and convictions of Jerome. They were seen as persecuted and this was seen as good in some way. If not good exactly, at least to be expected by the 'world' because they are lost and just don't understand.
Jesse what do you think would be the best way to get them to put kids before the ministry? If you see what everyone is doing wrong, please tell us what would work. I'm sure I have no say in any of this because I am not one of you. But surely there is some way to get through to them. What would work? You have stated that what has so far been done has been ineffective, so what would be effective?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 14:53:04 GMT -5
You are suggesting that because of the number of signatories on the petition that it means the friends don't support it. I would like to make this assertion: If there was a petition out there to declare that the workers are doing everything all A-OK, there wouldn't be many friends supporting it either. It has more to do with the traditions and the way of thinking of the friends that is the reason for so few getting involved in something like this. Most friends wouldn't sign a petition no matter what the cause, and even less likely to sign a petition that has anything to do with the workers or the fellowship, positive or negative. Try it out. Make up your "toned down" petition and float it out there. The results will be much the same. I have no doubt that you do not intend to re-victimize victims. I know your heart is in the right place. All I am saying is that your words are doing it. Good intentions to not abuse anyone does not prevent abuse. This was discussed on another thread and several of us agreed that we had all abused without knowing it, and then defended it on the basis that it was not our intention to abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 15:02:05 GMT -5
This was another one of my top five and might help understand why I don't like the beating up we see so often on TMB. I have felt bullied by posters here, and I know other good people have too. That's probably why many good people don't have much desire to post here. And that proves my point about alianating people who really need to be on board when it comes to positive culture and change: When you feel bullied by someone, you should state that you feel that way and why. The person may not even realize they are coming across as bullies. That's how relationships between mature people develop even when differences exist. If you are truly a "connectedness" sort of person as your test results indicate, you will seek connections like that, not just walk away and break connections. Walking away is the opposite of what your test results indicate you are like. It indicates that you realize we are all connected. Take that one step further and recognize that we are all friends here. I doubt there is anyone here who thinks you are an enemy. As a connected-type, by assuming everyone is your friend (including those who disagree with you), you will probably never feel bullied again.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 16:04:43 GMT -5
Clearday I've done that and it has made no difference. People that call me an enabler or lie about me consider me a friend?? They have continued their bullying ways which is why I don't feel compelled to post much here anymore. I don't need or want that kind of friendship, life is too short for that. Connectedness does not mean accepting bullying behavior, we had an eight hour group class along with the strengths assessment so I know that's not what it means. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. If the horse keeps kicking you in the teeth you will stop trying to lead it. That's what's happened with a lot of good posters here, they have been bullied right off the board.
What words of mine are re-victimizing victims? Quote them and explain.
What if the workers acted like arwin89 did? Say to her that the majority of CSA cases in the fellowship have been committed by the friends (which is a fact), then say you friends need to do something about that. Demand that the friends do something about that. Then the workers write a letter to arwin89 that they won't visit her home because of the corruption, sexual immorality, and fornication, among the friends and covering up of CSA among the friends. How would she like to be painted with that broad brush if she isn't one who committed CSA or has been sexually immoral?? I don't think she would like it very much.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 16:08:55 GMT -5
Jesse what do you think would be the best way to get them to put kids before the ministry? Square one; what is your bedrock objective proof "they" aren't putting kids before the ministry? A bunch of speculation and assumption here on TMB? Have you talked to a worker one-on-one face-to-face about it? I have. And I'd say the assumption is wrong.
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Post by snow on Mar 16, 2014 16:14:01 GMT -5
Jesse what do you think would be the best way to get them to put kids before the ministry? Square one; what is your bedrock objective proof "they" aren't putting kids before the ministry? A bunch of speculation and assumption here on TMB? Have you talked to a worker one-on-one face-to-face about it? I have. And I'd say the assumption is wrong. What did they say? Why don't most people know where they stand? Do you think it is the responsibility of the workers who are the leaders of your church to make it known to their members just what exactly they are doing to make children their priority? Why would they be reluctant to do that? Are they reluctant to do that? Is there a reason why people are left to wonder exactly where their ministers stand on the issue? Should there be any reason why people are left to wonder where their ministers stand on the issue? When addressed like they were with this petition, why wouldn't they try to educate the people about what they are doing about such a serious issue? Have they done this and I just don't know about it? When people are informed they don't need to do petitions or raise questions. If the workers don't like the questions and the petitions wouldn't it make sense for them to make it known in written form just what they have done and are doing about issues? Then there would be no need to rehash this over and over trying to figure out what is being done. The best way to shut people up is to give them answers. jmt
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 16:24:47 GMT -5
The petition isn't reaching many friends or workers.I would disagree with that statement Jesse. I really don't care if you agree or disagree. 2500+ people viewed it and 85 of them signed on. There must be more that people disagree with than agree with to not sign on. I've said why I haven't, and what I didn't agree with concerning the letter to 43 overseers. Banning all workers from your home is like cutting of your steering wheel to protest high gas prices.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 16:33:07 GMT -5
Snow who says workers are reluctant to inform members children are a priority? Is that an objective fact or speculation? Whatever I've asked they have freely answered, and their answers have not left me wondering.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 16:44:36 GMT -5
Someone who posts on this board recently told me they could call the war on CSA as largely won. The statement came out of the blue and surprised me because that is not what anyone would get from their posts here.
I - who's words revictimize victims, am an enabler, have my head in the sand, protect the status quo, etc. etc. have never thought the war was that close to over.
Isn't that ironic?
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Post by fixit on Mar 16, 2014 17:20:05 GMT -5
Do you think it is the responsibility of the workers who are the leaders of your church to make it known to their members just what exactly they are doing to make children their priority? Yes, I do. Overseers control all the large gatherings of the friends, they control the staff who visit the friends homes, and they control the address lists of the friends. No one has the reach and the power within the church that overseers have. They alone can put this matter to rest. Even if NO workers had sexually abused kids the workers are still responsible for using their power and reach to protect the fellowship's kids from CSA. It's a church responsibility because parents entrust their kids to church members.
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Post by fixit on Mar 16, 2014 17:23:39 GMT -5
This is utterly depressing and discouraging. More than 2000 views and only 85 signatures? The significant figure here is the 2000 views, which is 2000 reasons for you to have done what you did. Well done arwen89.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 17:34:00 GMT -5
Clearday I've done that and it has made no difference. People that call me an enabler or lie about me consider me a friend?? They have continued their bullying ways which is why I don't feel compelled to post much here anymore. I don't need or want that kind of friendship, life is too short for that. Connectedness does not mean accepting bullying behavior, we had an eight hour group class along with the strengths assessment so I know that's not what it means. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. If the horse keeps kicking you in the teeth you will stop trying to lead it. That's what's happened with a lot of good posters here, they have been bullied right off the board. I really don't know why it works for me but not for you. I suppose I would have to look at the exchanges to try to figure it out. It's just your characterization of the petition as a "beating". A petition is a plea by people who see a need or in some cases, feel abused in some way. By turning the tables on them and calling the plea of a victim as a beating, it can re-victimize the victim by making them into the bully and offender. In the case of this petition, we are looking at a request by a young woman, a young mother who fears for the safety of her children, making a plea to a much older, experienced and powerful person, the overseer. I feel it is completely wrong to characterize this petition as a "beating". This young woman is not only powerless in the 2x2 system, but she has vulnerable children, yet she has become the bad guy issuing beatings on the presumably poor defenceless overseer whose only option is to react badly or not at all. I would be totally thrilled to hear something like that. In fact, that is the way it should be. There would be nothing better than the workers to put these matters into the friends hands and offer to support them in every way possible to protect children. That makes no sense. The workers aren't in danger of having CSA committed against them when they visit homes. The parents of young children are at risk when workers live with them. However, if the workers had given the friends the green light to work on protocols to reduce child abuse among the friends and arwen89 had refused to get involved, then it would be perfectly fair for the workers to criticize that.....totally fair. What is actually happening is the opposite, arwen89 wants to get involved in protecting kids along with the workers and she is getting stonewalled on it, and I don't blame her one bit for closing up her home while she has young children....there is something really wrong with that picture.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 18:05:11 GMT -5
Someone who posts on this board recently told me they could call the war on CSA as largely won. The statement came out of the blue and surprised me because that is not what anyone would get from their posts here. That sounds like a misquote from something I have said on this board and to you in private. I would like to call the war as won because of the low number of known recent victimizations but I cannot call it as won because we know that it takes 10 years and often much longer before victims reveal the abuse.......if ever. So no, what you are quoting above is not something you would get from me either on this board or in private. This is my exact quote to you: "I have been tempted to call the war on CSA as largely won, but based on the lag time for public knowledge of incidents, I think it is wise to remain cautious on that." No irony, just twisting the facts. I know you are just posting emotionally because you feel hurt that you have been identified with re-victimizing but let's look at the facts on the war on CSA and you will see where I am coming from. The truth is, there will be no end to CSA offences so the war will never be fully won but you should be aware of the great strides which have been made on this which means the war really is in the process of being largely won. The F&Ws are well behind the curve on this but the efforts of everyone, including arwen89 have helped a lot. Here are some statistics from a large jurisdiction in North America: ...................................................................... 1993 ........ 2003 .........% change Sexual abuse investigations. ......................11,846 ......6754 ........ -43% Substantiated sexual abuse investigations. 3437 ....... 1490 ....... -57% % of sexual abuse of all maltreatment and abuse substantiated investigations. .............. 28% ........ 3% .... -89% Jesse, these are eyepopping numbers and you should be just as tempted as me to call the war on CSA as largely won. If the trends have continued, it may well be largely won but we should be cautious....and cautiously optimistic. I have seen more recent numbers and the trend is down, but not as precipitously as the period above. Still, the "head in the sand" approach of the workers and many friends is not helping things progress among the F&Ws. I will quote from my PM to you with regard to the F&Ws: "My gut feeling is that incidents are down precipitously because our society is more aware of it and professing parents pick up on some of it by osmosis." We don't have good numbers on professing children being abused in recent years so I am projecting that the precipitous decline in general society is at least being somewhat mirrored among the friends and workers. Are you still "surprised" at my statement? Honestly, I rarely say stuff like that without having a very solid reason for doing so.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 18:13:15 GMT -5
I've already said both my wife and I read the petition and letter to 43 overseers and didn't see the tone as a plea. That could explain why there are people who read but do not openly support the petition and letter to 43 overseers, the Code of Conduct and others like them. They too might have seen the same tone we did. What I'm trying to do is offer advice on how to write stuff like that. If you remember I was practically bullied into saying what I thought of the letter to 43 overseers. I didn't finally answer just so I could argue about it. It's ok if no one wants to consider our thoughts and advice as being real or valid.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 18:20:29 GMT -5
If CSA is reported like Barry told the workers to do, and the workers told arwin89 to do, the lag time for current cases of CSA will be erased.
That is one thing that really is different now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 18:25:19 GMT -5
I've already said both my wife and I read the petition and letter to 43 overseers and didn't see the tone as a plea. That could explain why there are people who read but do not openly support the petition and letter to 43 overseers, the Code of Conduct and others like them. They too might have seen the same tone we did. What I'm trying to do is offer advice on how to write stuff like that. If you remember I was practically bullied into saying what I thought of the letter to 43 overseers. I didn't finally answer just so I could argue about it. It's ok if no one wants to consider our thoughts and advice as being real or valid. Well let's have your advice on how to write it. You have been asked by several participants to do just that and all you have offered is some vague idea about not liking the "tone". Something more definitive than "tone" would be helpful. Most people don't have a clue what you actually mean. If you are also suggesting that the "tone" of the CSA Code of Conduct is bad, I would be most interested in your thoughts on how to change it to a tone that would be heard and accepted by the F&Ws as I was quite involved in co-ordinating the input from a wide group of friends and workers who had input on it. This is the first time I have heard that it has a bad "tone". There were professional, professing people quite involved, people who are very supportive of the meetings and I can guarantee you that none of them have a bad "tone". I suspect my "tone" is bad for F&Ws at times but I didn't write the CSA Code of Conduct.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 18:27:05 GMT -5
If CSA is reported like Barry told the workers to do, and the workers told arwin89 to do, the lag time for current cases of CSA will be erased. That is one thing that really is different now. That is exactly what I said yesterday on this thread. All these efforts have at least brought us up from a ministry that regularly covered up cases of CSA to where they now advocate reporting to authorities. That is progress.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 19:01:33 GMT -5
Then why do some people act as if nothing has changed?
I commented in the code of conduct discussion, so there is no need repeat myself here. You were in that discussion.
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Post by fixit on Mar 16, 2014 19:19:04 GMT -5
I've already said both my wife and I read the petition and letter to 43 overseers and didn't see the tone as a plea. That could explain why there are people who read but do not openly support the petition and letter to 43 overseers, the Code of Conduct and others like them. They too might have seen the same tone we did. What I'm trying to do is offer advice on how to write stuff like that. If you remember I was practically bullied into saying what I thought of the letter to 43 overseers. I didn't finally answer just so I could argue about it. It's ok if no one wants to consider our thoughts and advice as being real or valid. The couple in Texas are good people Jesse. When people like this come from outside and attend gospel meetings there is a flurry of letters and emails sent far and wide. I expect that was the case when they come from outside to profess around 15 years ago. Unfortunately no one warned them about paedophile overseers and they were shocked to discover that they'd welcomed one into the home of their children. Now no one in authority can assure them that its safe to entrust their children to this group of people so they're doing what any responsible parents would do - they're distancing themselves from the workers and friends.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 19:27:15 GMT -5
I know you are just posting emotionally because you feel hurt that you have been identified with re-victimizing but The funny thing about this is that I've been posting in a completely unemotional state of mind. I'm not feeling hurt at all - not that stating these two facts will change anyone's mind.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 19:51:27 GMT -5
I know you are just posting emotionally because you feel hurt that you have been identified with re-victimizing but The funny thing about this is that I've been posting in a completely unemotional state of mind. I'm not feeling hurt at all - not that stating these two facts will change anyone's mind. Sorry, I should have said that you "appear" to be posting emotionally, and it appears that way mainly because you are posting so much about yourself and not the issues. Just the way I read it. I can't say I ever post in a "completely unemotional state of mind", but if you can do it, all the better for you!
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Post by emy on Mar 16, 2014 21:25:05 GMT -5
i agree. Interesting statistics.
!993: About 29% of sexual abuse investigations were substantiated. Other types of abuse accounted for 71% of abuse reports. (Do I hear Rational saying, I told you so ?)
2003 (quite a long time ago): 22% of sexual abuse investigations were substantiated. Good reduction of numbers; not so much change in percentage. Other types of abuse = 97%!!!
Could it be rational has a point about CSA investigation vs other kinds of abuse?
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Post by jondough on Mar 16, 2014 21:32:33 GMT -5
i agree. Interesting statistics. !993: About 29% of sexual abuse investigations were substantiated. Other types of abuse accounted for 71% of abuse reports. (Do I hear Rational saying, I told you so ?) 2003 (quite a long time ago): 22% of sexual abuse investigations were substantiated. Good reduction of numbers; not so much change in percentage. Other types of abuse = 97%!!! Could it be rational has a point about undue emphasis on CSA? You're twisting what he said. He said more emphasis or at least as much needs to be put on other types of abuse. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but why would we ever want to let up on prevention of CSA? I'm sure if it was your child, these words would never come out of your mouth; "undue emphasis on CSA?" As others have pointed out, the potential for it will always be there.
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Post by emy on Mar 16, 2014 21:34:06 GMT -5
I'd like to believe you didn't mean this the way it comes across, but that is a very unfair statement. I think if you knew Jesse as well you would lead us to believe, you would never say such a thing. As a friend and observer of him and his family, I can vouch for the results reported by the assessment he took.
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Post by emy on Mar 16, 2014 21:39:17 GMT -5
i agree. Interesting statistics. !993: About 29% of sexual abuse investigations were substantiated. Other types of abuse accounted for 71% of abuse reports. (Do I hear Rational saying, I told you so ?) 2003 (quite a long time ago): 22% of sexual abuse investigations were substantiated. Good reduction of numbers; not so much change in percentage. Other types of abuse = 97%!!! Could it be rational has a point about undue emphasis on CSA? You're twisting what he said. He said more emphasis or at least as much needs to be put on other types of abuse. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but why would we ever want to let up on prevention of CSA? I'm sure if it was your child, these words would never come out of your mouth; "undue emphasis on CSA?" As others have pointed out, the potential for it will always be there. Point taken. Thanks I also see my logic is likely flawed, THe statistics given do not necessarily indicate investigation of other abuse.
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Post by snow on Mar 16, 2014 22:38:18 GMT -5
Snow who says workers are reluctant to inform members children are a priority? Is that an objective fact or speculation? Whatever I've asked they have freely answered, and their answers have not left me wondering. See, that's the kind of feedback that needs to get out there. Why are so many people wondering if the workers were doing a good job of informing them?
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