Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 18:07:09 GMT -5
Do you think though that that model is just as relevant today? Kids today are far more mobile, better travelled and have access to the whole world through the internet. I too found the foreign workers pretty interesting around the dinner table but other than that, most worker stays were pretty neutral affairs, neither good or bad, and certainly not memorable except for one guy I remember well who felt like part of the family when he stayed. In the generation before you, workers, because of their travels, accumulated a lot of useful knowledge that many more isolated and less knowledgeable families didn't have, so the home visits provided some good information and advice. Today, Google will instantly give you information on any topic.....advice too. Homestays could still be a useful thing but for the most part, I think workers have lost their way on it. They have become perfect guests to perfect hosts..... a nice time is had by all and then they move on. They don't seem to have a clear purpose or agenda. I see your point. But good, quality human interaction through conversation, work and play (did I mention workers helped me shovel snow and played board games with us?) cannot be replaced by social media and google searches. You're probably right that workers have lost their way on how to make a home visit a great experience for adults and children alike. But that problem is not solved by banning home visits. I would disagree to some degree. Why do workers have to do sleepovers to develop good relationships with families? They could come over for dinner and the evening, play games, regale the kids with stories or whatever and develop a good connection that way. In fact, a shorter time window might focus the activities much better than hanging around the house for 3 or 4 days. I think the concern with the homestays is that the 3 or 4 days where there is a lot of loose time for everyone gives a molester an opportunity to groom and abuse. It would be unfortunate that only a few bad apples would cause a ban for all the good ones but it would reduce the risk of offenses. The CSA Code of Conduct indicates how the homestay program can be done successfully without banning. The problem is, the workers and friends would actually have to broach the subject so that everyone is on the same page with things like the Rule of Two and touching boundaries. That's our big problem here. No one is acknowledging that risks exist and that certain conduct must be in place to keep kids safe. As long as it all remains loosey goosey and parents are naively believing that a Servant of God cannot possibly abuse a child, then the risks remain too high imo.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Jan 7, 2014 18:52:56 GMT -5
I see your point. But good, quality human interaction through conversation, work and play (did I mention workers helped me shovel snow and played board games with us?) cannot be replaced by social media and google searches. You're probably right that workers have lost their way on how to make a home visit a great experience for adults and children alike. But that problem is not solved by banning home visits. I would disagree to some degree. Why do workers have to do sleepovers to develop good relationships with families? They could come over for dinner and the evening, play games, regale the kids with stories or whatever and develop a good connection that way. In fact, a shorter time window might focus the activities much better than hanging around the house for 3 or 4 days. I think the concern with the homestays is that the 3 or 4 days where there is a lot of loose time for everyone gives a molester an opportunity to groom and abuse. It would be unfortunate that only a few bad apples would cause a ban for all the good ones but it would reduce the risk of offenses. The CSA Code of Conduct indicates how the homestay program can be done successfully without banning. The problem is, the workers and friends would actually have to broach the subject so that everyone is on the same page with things like the Rule of Two and touching boundaries. That's our big problem here. No one is acknowledging that risks exist and that certain conduct must be in place to keep kids safe. As long as it all remains loosey goosey and parents are naively believing that a Servant of God cannot possibly abuse a child, then the risks remain too high imo. Maybe it's the realist in me, but if getting folks to adhere to the CSA Code of Conduct is difficult, how much more difficult would it be to implement a ban on homestays? And I do understand the value of extreme positions in negotiation: Demand a ban. Adherence to the CSA COC can be the fallback position. Works for me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 21:03:21 GMT -5
I would disagree to some degree. Why do workers have to do sleepovers to develop good relationships with families? They could come over for dinner and the evening, play games, regale the kids with stories or whatever and develop a good connection that way. In fact, a shorter time window might focus the activities much better than hanging around the house for 3 or 4 days. I think the concern with the homestays is that the 3 or 4 days where there is a lot of loose time for everyone gives a molester an opportunity to groom and abuse. It would be unfortunate that only a few bad apples would cause a ban for all the good ones but it would reduce the risk of offenses. The CSA Code of Conduct indicates how the homestay program can be done successfully without banning. The problem is, the workers and friends would actually have to broach the subject so that everyone is on the same page with things like the Rule of Two and touching boundaries. That's our big problem here. No one is acknowledging that risks exist and that certain conduct must be in place to keep kids safe. As long as it all remains loosey goosey and parents are naively believing that a Servant of God cannot possibly abuse a child, then the risks remain too high imo. Maybe it's the realist in me, but if getting folks to adhere to the CSA Code of Conduct is difficult, how much more difficult would it be to implement a ban on homestays? Count on it. There will be no adherence to a Code of Conduct nor will there be a ban on homestays. That's just the reality of what we are dealing with. That's not what's going on here. The steps are switched. Few people are actually asking for a ban on homestays, just the implementation of a Code of Conduct. A ban on homestays where there are minor children should only be considered when a reasonable Code of Conduct is not being practised. So it is the ban which is the fallback position for those who wrote the Code of Conduct. I should disclose that my personal position is that homestays more than one night in homes with minor children should be banned except in rare and extreme situations, ie where there are no other options whatsoever. That's not a negotiating tactic, that's what I personally think is right.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Jan 7, 2014 21:26:08 GMT -5
Maybe it's the realist in me, but if getting folks to adhere to the CSA Code of Conduct is difficult, how much more difficult would it be to implement a ban on homestays? Count on it. There will be no adherence to a Code of Conduct nor will there be a ban on homestays. That's just the reality of what we are dealing with. That's not what's going on here. The steps are switched. Few people are actually asking for a ban on homestays, just the implementation of a Code of Conduct. A ban on homestays where there are minor children should only be considered when a reasonable Code of Conduct is not being practised. So it is the ban which is the fallback position for those who wrote the Code of Conduct. I should disclose that my personal position is that homestays more than one night in homes with minor children should be banned except in rare and extreme situations, ie where there are no other options whatsoever. That's not a negotiating tactic, that's what I personally think is right. Yes, reflecting on what you wrote and thinking about it more, I can see that a ban may be more palatable to some workers than actually having to confront the issue in the form of a conversation with parents about CSA! But I'd still rather see that than a ban on homestays of more than one night. The longer visits are the more valuable ones, IMO.
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on Jan 8, 2014 17:28:26 GMT -5
For me, it was easier to be of help to those in the homes found in the USA. Whether changing light bulbs, or cleaning, doing dishes or helping cook, mowing lawns, washing cars, changing tires, oil, you name it. However in the Northern Europe countries this was not so easy to do. You're right - worker stays are easier when the workers have something to do and you don't have to figure out a topic of conversation. However, it would be nice if workers actually did something outside of gospel meetings and visiting professing folks. Y'know, help out with a soup kitchen, volunteer with the community, something that would explain why we're supposed to call them "ministers."
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jan 8, 2014 20:23:53 GMT -5
Why do workers have to do sleepovers to develop good relationships with families? They could come over for dinner and the evening, play games, regale the kids with stories or whatever and develop a good connection that way. What did Jesus mean when he said "do not move around from house to house?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 21:04:32 GMT -5
Why do workers have to do sleepovers to develop good relationships with families? They could come over for dinner and the evening, play games, regale the kids with stories or whatever and develop a good connection that way. What did Jesus mean when he said "do not move around from house to house?" I think he meant "do not move around from house to house"! More specifically, they were suppose to enter a city and stay in one place until they were done there. That would mean if a mission in an area was going to last for several years, that would require setting up lodgings in one place for several years. That sounds like it makes a lot of sense to me!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 21:16:06 GMT -5
Do you think though that that model is just as relevant today? Kids today are far more mobile, better travelled and have access to the whole world through the internet. I too found the foreign workers pretty interesting around the dinner table but other than that, most worker stays were pretty neutral affairs, neither good or bad, and certainly not memorable except for one guy I remember well who felt like part of the family when he stayed. In the generation before you, workers, because of their travels, accumulated a lot of useful knowledge that many more isolated and less knowledgeable families didn't have, so the home visits provided some good information and advice. Today, Google will instantly give you information on any topic.....advice too. Homestays could still be a useful thing but for the most part, I think workers have lost their way on it. They have become perfect guests to perfect hosts..... a nice time is had by all and then they move on. They don't seem to have a clear purpose or agenda. I see your point. But good, quality human interaction through conversation, work and play (did I mention workers helped me shovel snow and played board games with us?) cannot be replaced by social media and google searches. You're probably right that some workers have lost their way on how to make a home visit a great experience for adults and children alike. But that problem is not solved by banning home visits. Gene, I'm glad to hear your view on the matter. For some reason, the worker visits that I've experienced have been more distant, even when I was younger. Part of that might have been my parents' constant vigilance when there were older adults around, but I honestly had no quality time with workers while they were in our home--brother or sister workers. Now, when they come, they stay in their bedrooms and only come out for meals. That started happening maybe 10 years ago; even my Mom commented on that fact that worker visits seemed to have changed. That might just be a geographic thing reflecting the influence of the overseer. However, I truly enjoyed having Dick Middleton in our home a few years before he got too ill to travel. He gave us some of his books he carried around, and I treasure them for his sake. Another one I enjoyed was Scott Wainwright; he actually seemed to want to visit and we had a good chat. He's a great guy. I agree with you that quality human interaction is a great experience.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 22:40:23 GMT -5
This so called religion is filled with brainwashing and sexual abuse of your children. My wife grew up going to these stupid meetings and now our family pays the price for the constant sexual abuse and badgering from worthless workers. You people are morons for believing this crap the homeless workers/professional moochers are telling you! Where in the bible does Jesus say you cannot watch TV, or listen to radio? Stupid nonsense! Paul Faulb from Apple Creek Ohio was a pedophile who was addicted to porn and raping little children.....my wife being one of them. Lucky for him he dies or I would kick his child raping ass straight to hell. Your religion is built on lies. Who is Paul Faulb from Apple Creek Ohio?
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 8, 2014 22:52:31 GMT -5
This so called religion is filled with brainwashing and sexual abuse of your children. My wife grew up going to these stupid meetings and now our family pays the price for the constant sexual abuse and badgering from worthless workers. You people are morons for believing this crap the homeless workers/professional moochers are telling you! Where in the bible does Jesus say you cannot watch TV, or listen to radio? Stupid nonsense! Paul Faulb from Apple Creek Ohio was a pedophile who was addicted to porn and raping little children.....my wife being one of them. Lucky for him he dies or I would kick his child raping ass straight to hell. Your religion is built on lies. Is the spelling maybe Falb rather than Faulb? There's a Paul Falb in the Account of when the Gospel came to Ohio
|
|
What Is Truth
New Member
John 4:25 "I know that Messias cometh......when he is come, he will tell us all things."
Posts: 5
|
Post by What Is Truth on Mar 3, 2014 12:52:01 GMT -5
United States Missouri 12 California 6 Kansas 4 Texas 4 Nebraska 3 Oregon 3 Washington 3 Oklahoma 2 Iowa 2 Minnesota 2 Kentucky 2 Michigan 1 South Dakota 1 Indiana 1 Arizona 1 Florida 1 USA 1 Total United States 49 Australia 23 Canada 11 UK 1 New Zealand 1 Total 85
Anonymous 8
Views 2,531
Length of time since petition was posted 75 days
This well thought-out and reasonable petition, has thus far had a disappointing response, which, being looked at by an overseer, would only confirm to him that nothing really needs to be done, that there is not a problem, except for the one who put together the petition and those who signed it, as most who signed are not part of the “fellowship”.
Reasons for not signing:
• Don’t know about petition (ignorant)
• Refuse to read it, taking RH’s advice to “stay away from the internet sites about the “truth”” (willingly ignorant)
• Don’t believe there is a problem (naive)
• Believe workers are so above us that we have no right to make any demands (worker worshipers)
• Afraid of negative backlash (protecting their place, position, or reputation)
• Afraid of negative backlash that would affect others around them (thoughtful of others – may be a legitimate reason)
What about the victims? Are we confident that this will never happen again? What changes have been made to give us this assurance?
It would appear that the problem with openly providing and implementing procedures that would give assurance to those who are concerned would also cause awareness to those who don’t know about the problem.
One would think they would be doing all they could to restore trust and confidence that has been severely damaged.
|
|
What Is Truth
New Member
John 4:25 "I know that Messias cometh......when he is come, he will tell us all things."
Posts: 5
|
Post by What Is Truth on Mar 3, 2014 12:59:27 GMT -5
I am currently in the process of writing a letter to address this petition to GP. I highly doubt his reply (if any) will be satisfactory, but I will at least have proof for myself that I did what I could! Anyone have any questions they'd like me to ask while I'm at it? :-P ☆Arwen☆ Wondering how this is progressing?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 3, 2014 13:00:30 GMT -5
United States Missouri 12 California 6 Kansas 4 Texas 4 Nebraska 3 Oregon 3 Washington 3 Oklahoma 2 Iowa 2 Minnesota 2 Kentucky 2 Michigan 1 South Dakota 1 Indiana 1 Arizona 1 Florida 1 USA 1 Total United States 49 Australia 23 Canada 11 UK 1 New Zealand 1 Total 85 Anonymous 8 Views 2,531 Length of time since petition was posted 75 days This well thought-out and reasonable petition, has thus far had a disappointing response, which, being looked at by an overseer, would only confirm to him that nothing really needs to be done, that there is not a problem, except for the one who put together the petition and those who signed it, as most who signed are not part of the “fellowship”. Reasons for not signing: • Don’t know about petition (ignorant) • Refuse to read it, taking RH’s advice to “stay away from the internet sites about the “truth”” (willingly ignorant) • Don’t believe there is a problem (naive) • Believe workers are so above us that we have no right to make any demands (worker worshipers) • Afraid of negative backlash (protecting their place, position, or reputation) • Afraid of negative backlash that would affect others around them (thoughtful of others – may be a legitimate reason) What about the victims? Are we confident that this will never happen again? What changes have been made to give us this assurance? It would appear that the problem with openly providing and implementing procedures that would give assurance to those who are concerned would also cause awareness to those who don’t know about the problem. One would think they would be doing all they could to restore trust and confidence that has been severely damaged. Thanks for posting this. Truly sad for sure! I agree, the overseers will not pay attention to this and think all is well as per usual. Blind leading the blind!
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 3, 2014 13:13:40 GMT -5
United States Missouri 12 California 6 Kansas 4 Texas 4 Nebraska 3 Oregon 3 Washington 3 Oklahoma 2 Iowa 2 Minnesota 2 Kentucky 2 Michigan 1 South Dakota 1 Indiana 1 Arizona 1 Florida 1 USA 1 Total United States 49 Australia 23 Canada 11 UK 1 New Zealand 1 Total 85 Anonymous 8 Views 2,531 Length of time since petition was posted 75 days This well thought-out and reasonable petition, has thus far had a disappointing response, which, being looked at by an overseer, would only confirm to him that nothing really needs to be done, that there is not a problem, except for the one who put together the petition and those who signed it, as most who signed are not part of the “fellowship”. Reasons for not signing: • Don’t know about petition (ignorant) • Refuse to read it, taking RH’s advice to “stay away from the internet sites about the “truth”” (willingly ignorant) • Don’t believe there is a problem (naive) • Believe workers are so above us that we have no right to make any demands (worker worshipers) • Afraid of negative backlash (protecting their place, position, or reputation) • Afraid of negative backlash that would affect others around them (thoughtful of others – may be a legitimate reason) What about the victims? Are we confident that this will never happen again? What changes have been made to give us this assurance? It would appear that the problem with openly providing and implementing procedures that would give assurance to those who are concerned would also cause awareness to those who don’t know about the problem. One would think they would be doing all they could to restore trust and confidence that has been severely damaged. Welcome "What truth"? What is truth is Jesus according to the bible....Jesus is our truth! I/m sorry that you've met the brick wall so many others of us have also done that. Many of us have worked to make the changes we see needed to be made, but were not allowed to even "start" such....the reason being as one overseer said to me, "I have my own convictions and YOU are not going to change them." Okay! It is the workers' church and I think that those who are in it and have serious doubts about what has or hasn't taken place in regardz to the scourge of CSA amongst the workers need to gain strength within themselves and leave...vote with your feet as many of us have already had to do. There is NO peace or freedom when your own convictions meet that brick wall and that which is given back to you is not true OR is not according to your understandings. I do not feel that we can change the workers and thus the 2x2 workership/friendship will not change! It will wither and die out as time goes by because there are less and less young workers staying any length of time....the not being able to marry is one of the greatest detriments to young workers. God has made mankind a sexual creature and there is no sin in the marital bed....so young men and women should have that privilege regardless. Jesus said some could make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the gospel but few were so found. Seems to me Jesus is saying that the gospel doesn't really require that, but that there are worthy men and women who can be eunuchs by their own power, etc
|
|
sayitaintso
New Member
Life is best on the OUTSIDE looking IN!
Posts: 14
|
Post by sayitaintso on Mar 7, 2014 9:12:35 GMT -5
You go girl! Much respect for you trying to do something. Everyone I know that goes to meeting is in such denial, or they talk about it behind closed doors and know that it's bad, but are unwilling to say or do anything about it out of fear of being shunned. The shunning, and "cold shoulder" syndrome is real and is scary for those that have given their lives to professing. They just freeze up and defend, defend, defend, while all the while bad and inappropriate activities take place.
For that matter, even though I don't go to meeting, I get the "cold shoulder" from relatives that still do because they know my thoughts on this horrible matter. The longer those that are professing choose to ignore the realities of their faith, the more I know the "truth" is NOT God's way.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 7, 2014 10:58:05 GMT -5
Best of luck arwen and thank you for doing this. Every little bit helps. I've signed it. Hope it at least gets their attention. One question I might ask them is this: Do think it is wise for the workers to stay in homes where there are underage children until this issue has been addressed and resolved? My name is not George, but I'll answer that question: The benefits and value of workers staying in homes where there are small children are incalculable. Yes, there are risks. But there are ways of mitigating the risk other than a ban on worker stays. If a worker is under allegations of inappropriate behavior, he/she should be banned from home stays until the matter is resolved by the courts. Parents should be offered educational material about CSA so they can be aware of the risks and the red flags. Parents should be equipped to make an informed decision as to whether they want to allow worker stays, and there should be NO retribution if they say 'no.' Gene, I agree that an alleged offender should NOT stay in homes where children are, and in some areas that would put a bondage on his/her companion for there are places where there are no childless families that have room for the workers...such as in retirement, many go to apts. and sell the farm!
|
|
|
Post by arwen89 on Mar 15, 2014 23:07:37 GMT -5
United States Missouri 12 California 6 Kansas 4 Texas 4 Nebraska 3 Oregon 3 Washington 3 Oklahoma 2 Iowa 2 Minnesota 2 Kentucky 2 Michigan 1 South Dakota 1 Indiana 1 Arizona 1 Florida 1 USA 1 Total United States 49 Australia 23 Canada 11 UK 1 New Zealand 1 Total 85 Anonymous 8 Views 2,531 Length of time since petition was posted 75 days This well thought-out and reasonable petition, has thus far had a disappointing response, which, being looked at by an overseer, would only confirm to him that nothing really needs to be done, that there is not a problem, except for the one who put together the petition and those who signed it, as most who signed are not part of the “fellowship”. Reasons for not signing: • Don’t know about petition (ignorant) • Refuse to read it, taking RH’s advice to “stay away from the internet sites about the “truth”” (willingly ignorant) • Don’t believe there is a problem (naive) • Believe workers are so above us that we have no right to make any demands (worker worshipers) • Afraid of negative backlash (protecting their place, position, or reputation) • Afraid of negative backlash that would affect others around them (thoughtful of others – may be a legitimate reason) What about the victims? Are we confident that this will never happen again? What changes have been made to give us this assurance? It would appear that the problem with openly providing and implementing procedures that would give assurance to those who are concerned would also cause awareness to those who don’t know about the problem. One would think they would be doing all they could to restore trust and confidence that has been severely damaged. This is utterly depressing and discouraging. More than 2000 views and only 85 signatures? I've actually checked less and less lately bci know there isn't much progression.
|
|
|
Post by arwen89 on Mar 15, 2014 23:12:08 GMT -5
I am currently in the process of writing a letter to address this petition to GP. I highly doubt his reply (if any) will be satisfactory, but I will at least have proof for myself that I did what I could! Anyone have any questions they'd like me to ask while I'm at it? :-P ☆Arwen☆ Wondering how this is progressing? It's not, to be honest. I recently wrote a letter to my local brother workers telling them they weren't welcome in my home bc of the corruptness of the system. That I had no more trust in the system that had been dishonest and allowed offenders to continue offending. They responded with the standard "Abuse of any kind is not tolerated and if you know of any, report to the proper authorities." They also told my parents that they had some sort of system of education for the workers at up, but wouldn't expand on what. Why they couldn't type that up to inform any who are worried, is beyond me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 7:38:38 GMT -5
Wondering how this is progressing? It's not, to be honest. I recently wrote a letter to my local brother workers telling them they weren't welcome in my home bc of the corruptness of the system. That I had no more trust in the system that had been dishonest and allowed offenders to continue offending. They responded with the standard "Abuse of any kind is not tolerated and if you know of any, report to the proper authorities." They also told my parents that they had some sort of system of education for the workers at up, but wouldn't expand on what. Why they couldn't type that up to inform any who are worried, is beyond me. By not explaining that they are getting training, it indicates that they care more about not looking like a religious organization taking training from other (allegedly false) religious organizations than they care about alleviating the worries of parents. They don't want people to know about what training they are taking because it makes them look like a normal minister from the "false religious world". They think that the basis of survival for their ministry group is to appear more righteous than all other ministry groups. Hence, they don't want anyone to know they are getting trained from the worldly ministry groups. I would expect that they are referring to the MinistrySafe course. MinistrySafe may be fine for a first step, but it's only a first step and unfortunately, it is mostly focused on how to protect ministry personnel who are not offending. It alleviates the worries of ministry worried about false accusations but it doesn't do a whole lot to prevent abuses or deal with them after the fact. I wonder how many workers take the MinistrySafe course and now feel "Yep, I took the course and now I know all I need to know about this subject!" Their attitude toward you is cold and completely lacks empathy. This is far too common among workers. When faced with a concern, they go back into their shell with a line from the Worker Handbook as a defensive mechanism when they should be reaching out to understand and help people with concerns. You gave them the perfect opportunity for them to reach out and bring you back on board, but by their cold and inadequate response, they probably accomplished the opposite.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 8:24:05 GMT -5
They, they, they, they. Always the other persons responsibility and fault. I'm reminded again of the CSA survivor who said here on TMB that as a child she felt safest when workers were in their home - because that is when the abuse didn't happen. She also said to the date of the post one of her favorite people was a brother worker.
That's a little different attitude than yours arwen89. "Try a little tenderness" with workers and people in general and you might get different results.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 8:32:49 GMT -5
There is a sticker on a locker at work that says: "Beatings will continue until morale improves." You can substitute any word in place of "morale" you want but it will not change the fact beatings aren't an effective way of improving anything. Sad to say that's the exact flavor of the petitions, letters to workers, and many posts here. The prevailing attitude seems to be "We will beat you workers into doing it our way." - then wonder why there are not effective results or support.
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Mar 16, 2014 8:50:11 GMT -5
Do I understand you correctly, Jesse, that you agree that "there are not effective results or support" from the workers, and that the reason that this is true, is because the "flavor" of our petitions and letters and posts and concerns are not correct. Could you please give us an example of a correct "flavor' letter or appeal , that could possibly be effective to bring about correction, that would protect children from abuse, and that the workers could be supportive of . Thanks. Alvin
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 9:05:44 GMT -5
When victims and potential victims cry out for help and understanding, then get told they are "beating" their leaders and advisers, they become re-victimized all over again.
Blaming the victims and making the powerful people look like the victims is one of the oldest tricks in the book. It is a form of bullying:
"Bullying is what happens when an individual with power exercises that power against people who don't fit in. By threatening to expose or harm or degrade the outlier,the bully reinforces the status quo in a way that increases his power." - Seth Godin
The truth is, the cries for help ("beatings" in Jesse's lexicon) have been effective, and proof of it is right in this thread. The response that arwen got from her local workers may have been cold and inadequate, but it does reveal a huge change from that past which has come only from the "beatings/bleatings". The worker indicated that all criminal activities of abuse should be reported. This is a huge change and a great victory for all victims who have cried out on this. At one time, workers would enforce a cover up on such activities and when the issue ever came up, they would outright deny that it ever occurred among "God's people". Today, they are starting to advocate reporting to the authorities, and that is a remarkable change, given the high degree of commitment there is to the status quo.
Thank goodness for victims who have spoken out, and concerned parents like arwen who continue to speak out and require assurances from the workers that they are doing enough to protect children. Change comes from no other source apparently. Thank you for all who have done so and hopefully no one will ever convince you that speaking out and looking for positive change is called "beating".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 9:10:07 GMT -5
Do I understand you correctly, Jesse, that you agree that "there are not effective results or support" from the workers, and that the reason that this is true, is because the "flavor" of our petitions and letters and posts and concerns are not correct. Could you please give us an example of a correct "flavor' letter or appeal , that could possibly be effective to bring about correction, that would protect children from abuse, and that the workers could be supportive of . Thanks. Alvin I don't know how many times I have heard "that's not the way to do it", but when asked for the right way to do it, it is always silent.
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Mar 16, 2014 9:16:16 GMT -5
Do I understand you correctly, Jesse, that you agree that "there are not effective results or support" from the workers, and that the reason that this is true, is because the "flavor" of our petitions and letters and posts and concerns are not correct. Could you please give us an example of a correct "flavor' letter or appeal , that could possibly be effective to bring about correction, that would protect children from abuse, and that the workers could be supportive of . Thanks. Alvin Seems like one of snow's taglines would be applicable here: "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete" Buckminster Fuller I would be most interested in what Jesse might propose for a "new model". I haven't read this thread, but I always somehow knew that the petition approach would probably not be effective in this situation. (I've in fact seen huge backlash from management in a company I've worked in, when someone circulated a petition. I never quite knew why this was the case.) I think petitions are only effective when people in decision making capacities are bound by public opinion. A lot of the conditioning with a group like the F&W's is that going against popular opinion is a good thing. I know I still have a lot of that tendency in me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 9:29:05 GMT -5
Do I understand you correctly, Jesse, that you agree that "there are not effective results or support" from the workers, and that the reason that this is true, is because the "flavor" of our petitions and letters and posts and concerns are not correct. Could you please give us an example of a correct "flavor' letter or appeal , that could possibly be effective to bring about correction, that would protect children from abuse, and that the workers could be supportive of . Thanks. Alvin Seems like one of snow's taglines would be applicable here: "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete" Buckminster Fuller I would be most interested in what Jesse might propose for a "new model". I haven't read this thread, but I always somehow knew that the petition approach would probably not be effective in this situation. (I've in fact seen huge backlash from management in a company I've worked in, when someone circulated a petition. I never quite knew why this was the case.) I think petitions are only effective when people in decision making capacities are bound by public opinion. A lot of the conditioning with a group like the F&W's is that going against popular opinion is a good thing. I know I still have a lot of that tendency in me. While petitions may not seem effective, and even cause backlash, one thing can be for sure: the message is heard. No organizational leader wants to admit they are doing something wrong. A petition is a public revelation of their inadequacies and it is normal for proud human beings to strike back or try to ignore it. But no rational human being can ignore the voices of a group of people and they don't.....they just wait until it blows over to respond appropriately.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 11:30:57 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 16, 2014 11:40:08 GMT -5
This was another one of my top five and might help understand why I don't like the beating up we see so often on TMB. I have felt bullied by posters here, and I know other good people have too. That's probably why many good people don't have much desire to post here. And that proves my point about alianating people who really need to be on board when it comes to positive culture and change:
|
|