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Post by xna on Mar 25, 2024 7:02:16 GMT -5
John 3:16 says "whosoever believeth" making it a decision or choice. In John 20:29, Jesus told Thomas that he knew he had resurrected because he had seen and felt his wounds, but "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” He got that one wrong. It's a fallacy of critical thinking. He is looking for the gullible and the credulous. Gullible = Easily persuaded to believe something. Credulous = Having or showing too great of readiness to believe things. (This is why people find Jesus when they are down and out and most vulnerable. When they are desperate they latch hold of any idea that gives them comfort.)
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Post by xna on Mar 25, 2024 7:12:09 GMT -5
Belief without facts could be fantasy, gullible people with an active imagination will swallow nearly anything. But there is subjective evidence behind the bible, so people choose to accept what nonbelievers deem impossible. Both make a choice, you won't personally accept what can't be proven and I consider that a choice. Some of the things in the bible are good and true, but I find no good reason to believe anything supernatural is going on. As Thomas Sowell said; “Some things are believed because they are demonstrably true, but many other things are believed simply because they have been asserted repeatedly and repetition has been accepted as a substitute for evidence.” You don't have perfect and complete information about Christ, so you've decided to dismiss him. But if he returned, I agree that you'd self correct based on new and better information. We are called by faith for a reason though, it demands love & trust.
I don't have complete and perfect information about anything. I consider the facts (not my wishful thinking) and based on the preponderance of the evidence, I come to a conclusion. This is how my beliefs are formed, for me it's not a choice or force of will. This is the same way the judicial system works.
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Post by Dan on Mar 25, 2024 13:45:02 GMT -5
If you have facts, beliefs aren't necessary, and that's what makes belief a choice. Example; If you said gravity works and I dropped a pen which fell to the floor, gravity works and I don't need to believe in it because its a known & proven fact.
Belief is faith or trust in what is unknown and unproven. Tangible facts and objective evidence eliminate the necessity of belief. We see beliefs and facts differently. I see beliefs and facts as distinct, one can't be substituted for the other. If so you could change your belief many times in a day by ignoring the facts. There are some people like this who's belief’s change all the time without first checking out the facts as the bible says; "A reed swayed by the wind". People who are too easily convinced without sufficient evidence or critical examination, are credulous. Someone who is credulous may accept claims, stories, or information as true without questioning or verifying their accuracy. Beliefs are subjective constructs that individuals hold about the world around them. Beliefs can not be changed, like a light switch that can be turn on or off by force of will. They can be based on personal experiences, cultural upbringing, education, or other influences. A belief is a conclusion one comes to based on ones experience and all available information. Facts are objective pieces of information that are verifiable and empirically demonstrable. They exist independently of individual beliefs or opinions. Facts are based on evidence and can be confirmed through observation, measurement, experimentation, or documentation. Facts provide the foundation for knowledge and understanding.
Probably semantics .. What formula one uses to make a decision is irrelevant, you require evidence and then weigh what facts you can accumulate to make a decision. But its a choice no matter what criteria you use. Everyone has a different mental process they use to determine whether something is true or false. You don't use hope or emotions to reach a conclusion, you need some evidence to substantiate something. That's a standard you set for yourself to make a decision, but its a decision none-the-less.
Gravity works, that's a fact that eliminates choice. Jesus defied gravity by walking on water, that's a belief because it can't be factually verified. You've decided not to believe in that miracle because its a factual impossibility, but that to me is still a choice. Turn the key on a car and it doesn't start, so your convinced by the evidence that the car won't run.. Turn the key again and the car starts, now your convinced by the evidence that the car will run. Your perception of whether the car would or wouldn't start just swung 180 degrees based on the same experiment yielding different results, and you were correct both times. Deciding what would happen by turning the key a third time would require a choice.
You seem to agree that facts remove choice? But the bible does not consist of verifiable facts, so believing it or not has got to be a choice. Your essentially saying that without factual confirmation, you have no choice, but that's a criteria you set for yourself to eliminate choice. No matter what parameters we set for ourselves to make a decision, accepting or rejecting anything unknown can be nothing but a choice.
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Post by xna on Mar 25, 2024 14:31:01 GMT -5
Probably semantics It could be part of the difference. Turn the key on a car and it doesn't start, so your convinced by the evidence that the car won't run.. Turn the key again and the car starts, now your convinced by the evidence that the car will run. Your perception of whether the car would or wouldn't start just swung 180 degrees based on the same experiment yielding different results, and you were correct both times. Deciding what would happen by turning the key a third time would require a choice. If on the first try the car DID NOT start and on the 2nd try it DID start, then I would conclude something changed between the 1st and 2nd try. You seem to agree that facts remove choice?
I see facts support belief. But the bible does not consist of verifiable facts, so believing it or not has got to be a choice. Your essentially saying that without factual confirmation, you have no choice, but that's a criteria you set for yourself to eliminate choice. No matter what parameters we set for ourselves to make a decision, accepting or rejecting anything unknown can be nothing but a choice.
Some parts of the bible contain verifiable facts, other parts of the bible are metaphor, and yet other portions are poetry. The non-fiction claims (historical facts) to be believed need to fit well with our knowledge and our experiences. If the bible says; Jesus walked on water, then unless it was frozen water , you need to withhold belief that this is a factual claim, as it does not comport with all we know about people and water. It fits in the category of; metaphor or poetry. This supernatural stuff is what Thomas Jefferson cut out of his Jefferson bible. If one believes a verse in the bible is non-fiction, but it doesn't fit with our present understanding and our observations of reality, then that belief is not well supported. If you suspended reason you can embraced a delusion as real, but it's still a delusion. Fictional works (metaphor and poetry) have no need to be confirmed with evidence. In the bible rightly dividing what is fiction and nonfiction is problematic for many readers.
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Post by Dan on Mar 25, 2024 16:01:36 GMT -5
I see facts support belief. Some parts of the bible contain verifiable facts, other parts of the bible are metaphor, and yet other portions are poetry. The non-fiction claims (historical facts) to be believed need to fit well with our knowledge and our experiences. If the bible says; Jesus walked on water, then unless it was frozen water , you need to withhold belief that this is a factual claim, as it does not comport with all we know about people and water. It fits in the category of; metaphor or poetry. This supernatural stuff is what Thomas Jefferson cut out of his Jefferson bible. If one believes a verse in the bible is non-fiction, but it doesn't fit with our present understanding and our observations of reality, then that belief is not well supported. If you suspended reason you can embraced a delusion as real, but it's still a delusion. Fictional works (metaphor and poetry) have no need to be confirmed with evidence. In the bible rightly dividing what is fiction and nonfiction is problematic for many readers.
Of course, any facts can enhance belief, but also dispel belief. We only have physical facts, but when considering the spiritual realm, we have nothing. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
I agree, many Christians write-off miracles as fiction, and they regard what they can't comprehend as having some alternative spiritual meaning. For myself, context is everything, but none of it is hyperbole. When you believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, then our physical observations of what is or isn't possible becomes irrelevant, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26).
No matter the reasons and no matter what convinces us, belief and unbelief are choices everyone makes... But then you have the indecisive "I don't know" crowd too!
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Post by xna on Mar 25, 2024 16:34:30 GMT -5
Of course, any facts can enhance belief, but also dispel belief. We only have physical facts, but when considering the spiritual realm, we have nothing. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14) I find no good reason to believe in any "spiritual realm". However, I can appreciate the culture, the literature, the mythology and the traditions which have sprung from the bible. I find that "spiritual discernment" doesn't work. If it did then Christians would be in agreement. Think about how many different denominations there have been. Within the each denomination there are different spiritual discernments. There are daily examples here. If spiritual discernment didn't work at all, then spiritual discernments would look exactly like what we see.
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Post by xna on Mar 25, 2024 20:32:14 GMT -5
Dan since we don't see choosing what you believe the same, I decided to ask the internet god > Chat-GPT User asked: Can a person choose what they believe?ChatGPT Answer:Belief is a complex psychological phenomenon, influenced by various factors such as upbringing, culture, personal experiences, evidence, reasoning, and emotional disposition. While individuals can actively seek out information, engage in critical thinking, and explore different perspectives, the ability to directly choose what one believes is not always straightforward.
People often form beliefs based on a combination of conscious and subconscious processes. While they can control certain aspects of their belief formation, such as seeking out information or consciously challenging their beliefs, factors beyond their immediate control, such as emotional biases or deeply ingrained cultural influences, also play significant roles.
Furthermore, beliefs are not always consciously chosen; they can evolve over time through experiences and exposure to new information. Individuals may find themselves gradually shifting their beliefs as they encounter new evidence or perspectives that challenge their existing views.
In summary, while individuals can influence their beliefs to some extent through conscious effort and critical thinking, belief formation is a complex interplay of various factors, and the ability to simply choose what one believes is often not a straightforward process.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- User asked: Can a person by force of will change what they believe?
ChatGPT Answered
The ability of a person to change their beliefs solely through force of will can be complex and may depend on various factors including the individual's mindset, the nature of the belief, and the circumstances surrounding it. Here are some considerations:
Openness to Change: Some people may be more open-minded and willing to reconsider their beliefs based on new information or experiences. For them, it might be easier to consciously choose to challenge and alter their beliefs through willpower alone.
Emotional Attachment: Beliefs are often intertwined with emotions and personal identity. Deeply ingrained beliefs that are emotionally charged may be more resistant to change, even with significant effort.
Cognitive Dissonance: When new information contradicts existing beliefs, it can create cognitive dissonance, which is psychologically uncomfortable. People may resist changing their beliefs to reduce this discomfort unless they actively engage in strategies to resolve it.
Reinforcement and Conditioning: Beliefs can be reinforced by repeated exposure and social validation. Changing deeply held beliefs might require not only willpower but also consistent effort to expose oneself to alternative perspectives and challenge existing assumptions.
External Influences: External factors such as social pressure, cultural norms, and authority figures can also play a significant role in shaping and reinforcing beliefs. Willpower alone may not be sufficient to overcome these influences.
Personal Growth and Development: Personal growth often involves questioning and reassessing one's beliefs. Engaging in practices such as critical thinking, self-reflection, and seeking diverse perspectives can facilitate belief change, but it typically requires more than just force of will.
In conclusion, while willpower can be a starting point for changing beliefs, it's often not enough on its own. Changing deeply ingrained beliefs usually requires a combination of openness, critical thinking, exposure to new information, emotional intelligence, and sometimes external support or guidance.
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Post by xna on Mar 25, 2024 20:44:49 GMT -5
Ethiopia’s Chapel in the Sky
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 25, 2024 21:53:46 GMT -5
Ethiopia’s Chapel in the Sky My stomach turned completely upside down.
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Post by Dan on Mar 26, 2024 10:27:05 GMT -5
Ethiopia’s Chapel in the Sky My stomach turned completely upside down.
And you thought the 2x2's were a tough church
In that church you don't go to church to pray, you pray on the way! Not a good church for anyone with acrophobia.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 26, 2024 14:31:04 GMT -5
Ethiopia’s Chapel in the Sky My stomach turned completely upside down. Any info of those that fall off during the climb?
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Post by xna on Mar 26, 2024 14:44:51 GMT -5
My stomach turned completely upside down. Any info of those that fall off during the climb? They take the fast train to heaven
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 26, 2024 15:09:02 GMT -5
My stomach turned completely upside down. Any info of those that fall off during the climb? That has to be the most common of first questions asked.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 26, 2024 15:16:04 GMT -5
Any info of those that fall off during the climb? That has to be the most common of first questions asked. I have seen the results and stuffed them in body bags.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 26, 2024 15:17:38 GMT -5
That has to be the most common of first questions asked. I have seen the results and stuffed them in body bags. Probably a major splat. There were a few of them on the street one Sept. 11 in New York city.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 26, 2024 15:36:17 GMT -5
I have seen the results and stuffed them in body bags. Probably a major splat. There were a few of them on the street one Sept. 11 in New York city. I had a tutor on a course who was from New York but had moved to NZ just prior to Sept 11. He was a senior officer in a station which attended the towers incident. His work colleagues that attended went into the building and all perished. He told us some of the stories he heard from other first responders which would make your hair stand on end.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 26, 2024 19:42:30 GMT -5
Probably a major splat. There were a few of them on the street one Sept. 11 in New York city. I had a tutor on a course who was from New York but had moved to NZ just prior to Sept 11. He was a senior officer in a station which attended the towers incident. His work colleagues that attended went into the building and all perished. He told us some of the stories he heard from other first responders which would make your hair stand on end. I saw a video clip which showed a couple of people falling, who had jumped from the top and landed on the street. What a frightful choice to have to make in a situation like that.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 26, 2024 20:10:55 GMT -5
I had a tutor on a course who was from New York but had moved to NZ just prior to Sept 11. He was a senior officer in a station which attended the towers incident. His work colleagues that attended went into the building and all perished. He told us some of the stories he heard from other first responders which would make your hair stand on end. I saw a video clip which showed a couple of people falling, who had jumped from the top and landed on the street. What a frightful choice to have to make in a situation like that. It was horrible to see.
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Post by xna on Mar 28, 2024 6:42:14 GMT -5
I was listening to a podcast that was reviewing some church (not 2x2) financial annual reports.
- In some cases church members make a monetary "gift" to their church, which they can take off as a charitable contribution on their taxes. The church then grants their student a scholarship which eliminates their private school tuition.
- Churches typically give less an 2% of their budget to charity.
- Churches are exempt from property tax and other taxes, but consume public services, like fire / police protection like those business who do pay taxes.
- Most churches do not provide common financial reports to their members such as; income statement, balance sheet, & P&L.
- People don't give 10% to their church. It's typically 2%-4%. Mormons are some of the biggest church givers.
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Post by xna on Mar 28, 2024 6:55:30 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2024 12:28:42 GMT -5
Yes it's dangerous to tell the truth about life when there are so many people that believe in God and believe that makes them the only ones that are right. Not all believers are like that of course, but a good number of them still believe that they should have the power to push their beliefs on the rest of the citizenship. Look what's happening in the US right now with the endless attack on the separation of church and state by fundamentalist Christians. They are willing to kill for their cause as we've seen in the last few years.
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Post by xna on Mar 28, 2024 12:45:21 GMT -5
Yes it's dangerous to tell the truth about life when there are so many people that believe in God and believe that makes them the only ones that are right. Not all believers are like that of course, but a good number of them still believe that they should have the power to push their beliefs on the rest of the citizenship. Look what's happening in the US right now with the endless attack on the separation of church and state by fundamentalist Christians. They are willing to kill for their cause as we've seen in the last few years. The bible message basically comes down to........ Love your enemies, while i torture mine forever in hell.
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2024 13:38:38 GMT -5
Yes it's dangerous to tell the truth about life when there are so many people that believe in God and believe that makes them the only ones that are right. Not all believers are like that of course, but a good number of them still believe that they should have the power to push their beliefs on the rest of the citizenship. Look what's happening in the US right now with the endless attack on the separation of church and state by fundamentalist Christians. They are willing to kill for their cause as we've seen in the last few years. The bible message basically comes down to........ Love your enemies, while i torture mine forever in hell.Do as I say, not as I do! Okay that's about right!
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Post by xna on Apr 5, 2024 16:44:16 GMT -5
The Brains of Believers and Non-Believers Work Differently. Not believing in God is due to a distinct set of brain networks."The results demonstrated that religious believers are more likely to use more intuitive and heuristic reasoning and that religious non-believers are more likely to use more deliberative and analytic reasoning. For example, non-believers are more likely to process sensory information, such as something they see, in a more deliberative manner that involves higher cortical areas, called top-down processing, involved in reasoning. In contrast, religious believers are more likely to interpret visual information in a more emotional or intuitive manner, called bottom-up processing, that involves more ancient brain systems. Religious believers share this bottom-up processing bias with people who believe in the supernatural or paranormal activity, such as telekinesis or clairvoyance."
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Post by xna on Apr 9, 2024 13:53:09 GMT -5
Woman claiming God told her to go on shooting spree because of solar eclipse shoots drivers on Florida interstate, police say "A woman checked out of a Florida hotel and told staff that she was going on a God-directed shooting spree because of the solar eclipse, then shot two drivers on Interstate 10 before being arrested and charged with attempted murder Monday, according to the Florida Highway Patrol.
Taylon Nichelle Celestine, 22, of Georgia, entered the highway 115 miles from the Alabama border in the Florida Panhandle and headed west. She was driving a purple Dodge Challenger with Georgia plates, officials said.
Within 5 miles, she fired into a passing car several times, spraying auto glass and grazing the driver in the arm, the department said in a statement.
She then fired at a second vehicle, hitting the driver in the neck. The driver was injured and treated at a hospital."
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help
Senior Member
Life Member "Australian Order of Old Bastards" AOOB.
Posts: 841
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Post by help on Apr 10, 2024 19:29:30 GMT -5
Will Jesus return in 2024?
A return has been predicted every…single…year since 33 CE.
And he hasn’t, every…single…year since 33 CE.
Plus, according to his own words, he would be back “Within the lifetimes of those listening to him.” Well, they’re all dead and long gone, for almost a couple of thousand years and he never came back as recorded in the Bible.
Let it go, it’s not going to happen.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2024 17:25:22 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Apr 14, 2024 18:08:45 GMT -5
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