|
Post by What Hat on Dec 14, 2014 21:28:52 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to navigate that list. And I really don't want to spend any more time on that site than I have to, if you get my drift.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Dec 14, 2014 21:34:28 GMT -5
Thanks what hat, I agree. it is not uncommon for "negative" reviews in books or whatever, of particular groups of people , to actually make many of the authors other views also not so "trustworthy", to the reader , if the reader personally knows people of the group ,and their experience and observations are different. Of course, if their experiences are similar, it underlines or reassures the reader that " thus guy knows what he's talking about. ". I understand why some people because of their horrible treatment in the 2x2 church, consider it a cult, and why others do not. It is what it is. Good and bad, like most everything. Labeling, stereotyping, name calling is harmful and disrespectful, but sometimes the only way to educate the offenders is by actually being and living , opposite to the accusations thrown at them. That takes humility, not my forte. As a kid, I experienced some ridicule etc, since I was raised in a somewhat conservative Mennonite sect. Later on, when I professed , I remember walking in a m all with some of the friends, conservatively dressed etc. I overheard another group of people ridiculing us, as simple Mennonite etc. It was a lesson to me somehow. Father forgive them, they don't know what they're talking about. As humans, we just are like that. If you are different than me- YOU are the "different" one and I am normal. Hmmmmmmmmm. Some years ago, a person, who spoke in a unique way and had certain mannerisms, easy target for ridicule. He and his wife walked into a restaurant and were seated in a booth where the group of young boys behind them, did not know they were there. The boys happened to be having a hilarious time, mocking and imitating this "weird" person, doubling over in laughter etc. Etc. The couple left earlier, and when the boys went to pay for their meal, they were told that a certain Mr Penner had paid for all of them, the very person they had ridiculed. Hmmmmmmmmm. Their "experience" with this "weirdo " probably changed their opinion of him forever, and call him a cultist or anything else might , not ring a bell with them again. Mr Penner has since past on, along with his unique ways, but I bet those boys have good memories of him Alvin Netflix has quite a few movies that are low-budget life studies. Mrs. What and I enjoy watching these, most of the time. Anyway, a really interesting one is called "The Station Agent" and is about the struggles of a dwarf. I recommend it. Some people can't resist picking on him, but he also gets great support, and from people you might not expect. Good story.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 14, 2014 21:46:43 GMT -5
What Hat ~ Most apologist sites deal with presenting Christian perspectives on different belief systems. That's not unusual. However, in the area of EXCLUSITIVITY, I feel he described life within the 2x2's quite well.
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Dec 14, 2014 21:58:39 GMT -5
Cool. I watch for it on our sons Netflix. We old fashioned with shaw. Love those kind of stories. Interestingly. One would presume that someone who has been picked on would automatically empathize with others being picked on. Not always the case. We were at a public gathering a while ago and I made a bit of special effort to spend some time , etc with a "unique character who is not too "accepted " socially. Afterward, another character who had been picked on lots in his life, tried to get a few of us to join in ridicule. We are strange animals. I have an autistic nephew, and it is so encouraging to see the kind of people who stand by him and "protect him.. young confident capable hockey players, who live with him, are his heroes and vice versa. A sports channel did a short doc on him. Not so many young boys have been in change room of new York Rangers but he was. People, generally, treat me better than I deserve also. Alvin
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Dec 14, 2014 22:04:37 GMT -5
What Hat ~ Most apologist sites deal with presenting Christian perspectives on different belief systems. That's not unusual. However, in the area of EXCLUSITIVITY, I feel he described life within the 2x2's quite well.
Isn't this a bit ironic coming from a web site that purports to provide "Biblical truth" and by name tells us all Roman Catholics, Mormons, et cetera are wrong. I guess it takes one to know one. The one characteristic of every "dangerous cult" that the friends do not have, is a single charismatic Messianic leader. This characteristic appears on all the lists I've seen, and as I've underlined on the CARM list too. This gives them at least some measure of checks and balances on egregiously bad leaders.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Dec 14, 2014 22:54:21 GMT -5
What Hat ~ Most apologist sites deal with presenting Christian perspectives on different belief systems. That's not unusual. However, in the area of EXCLUSITIVITY, I feel he described life within the 2x2's quite well.
Isn't this a bit ironic coming from a web site that purports to provide "Biblical truth" and by name tells us all Roman Catholics, Mormons, et cetera are wrong. I guess it takes one to know one. The one characteristic of every "dangerous cult" that the friends do not have, is a single charismatic Messianic leader. This characteristic appears on all the lists I've seen, and as I've underlined on the CARM list too. This gives them at least some measure of checks and balances on egregiously bad leaders. I think exclusive trinitarianism is no better than any other exclusive grouping. "Biblical truth" is in the eye of the beholder.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 15, 2014 0:01:39 GMT -5
I don't agree with this. The celebration of Jesus as God and the worship of Jesus as God is a constructive theology as it cements the idea of a nature that humans can aspire to and commune with the divine nature. I don't know why this would be a problem unless Jesus failed to emulate and reveal the divine nature. While people may be prone to worshipping a false Jesus of their imagination, something less that God, that's a separate issue. It may be a concomitant issue but it's a separate issue. So much for the idea of a personal relationship. IMO, it's not a personal relationship if someone else puts brackets around it or qualifies how it must or should be. That's somewhat the attitude the workers operate under. Self-worship, anarchy, satanism ... it's all the same thing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 0:23:53 GMT -5
So much for the idea of a personal relationship. IMO, it's not a personal relationship if someone else puts brackets around it or qualifies how it must or should be. That's somewhat the attitude the workers operate under. Self-worship, anarchy, satanism ... it's all the same thing. ummm are you suggesting the workers are satanists and anarchist?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 15, 2014 0:37:54 GMT -5
So much for the idea of a personal relationship. IMO, it's not a personal relationship if someone else puts brackets around it or qualifies how it must or should be. That's somewhat the attitude the workers operate under. Self-worship, anarchy, satanism ... it's all the same thing. NO, lee.
Your insinuation against worker's attitude as being, "Self-worship, anarchy, satanism" is simply not true. I'm not 2x2 any more but My father was a worker & my brother also at one time.
That was NOT the way that they felt or acted.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 15, 2014 1:16:46 GMT -5
That's somewhat the attitude the workers operate under. Self-worship, anarchy, satanism ... it's all the same thing. ummm are you suggesting the workers are satanists and anarchist? Somewhat. Like when they feel like they can operate aloof of secular authority when the laws of secular authority exist to protect and prevent victims of CSA. Or anytime they feel like they're so so special. And don't owe anything to the traditions in front of them or before them.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 15, 2014 13:40:07 GMT -5
What Hat ~ Most apologist sites deal with presenting Christian perspectives on different belief systems. That's not unusual. However, in the area of EXCLUSITIVITY, I feel he described life within the 2x2's quite well.
Isn't this a bit ironic coming from a web site that purports to provide "Biblical truth" and by name tells us all Roman Catholics, Mormons, et cetera are wrong. I guess it takes one to know one. The one characteristic of every "dangerous cult" that the friends do not have, is a single charismatic Messianic leader. This characteristic appears on all the lists I've seen, and as I've underlined on the CARM list too. This gives them at least some measure of checks and balances on egregiously bad leaders. What Hat ~ In relation to your statement highlighted above, did you forget about 2x2 originator or founder, William Irvine, and what he claimed to be in his Omega Gospel and also hinted at in his Alpha Gospel? He spoke of himself as one of God's special anointed ones who would be one of the two witnesses who would prophesy in the end times, mentioned in Revelation 11. Unfortunately, he didn't mention the other witness who would be standing with him? Perhaps Edward Cooney? Obviously, he was a bit delusional, but he did speak about his "mantle" and "special calling" more than once in the early days of the 2x2's. Also, the others not only revered him, but were in submission to his suggestions regarding their teaching style and promotion of "The Living Witness Doctrine."
From his own statements, I would assume that William Irvine did have a Messianic Complex, which contributed to the charismatic aura surrounding him? Just check out Chapter 21 in Cherie's book on TTT for a good illustration of what William Irvine taught and believed about himself for a real eye opener. It's enough to give you "goose bumps" to read his letters in which he shared what he believed about himself in God's plan for the world. He also predicted the world's end would begin in August 1914 and it would be the end of the age of grace, too. Instead, it became the beginning of his end among the other workers who saw their place in the ministry being threatened by his mental state and began to entertain ex-communication for their leader.
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/21wmibook.php
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Dec 15, 2014 13:49:27 GMT -5
Isn't this a bit ironic coming from a web site that purports to provide "Biblical truth" and by name tells us all Roman Catholics, Mormons, et cetera are wrong. I guess it takes one to know one. The one characteristic of every "dangerous cult" that the friends do not have, is a single charismatic Messianic leader. This characteristic appears on all the lists I've seen, and as I've underlined on the CARM list too. This gives them at least some measure of checks and balances on egregiously bad leaders. What Hat ~ Did you forget about William Irvine, the 2x2 founder, and what he claimed to be in his Omega Gospel? He spoke of himself as one of God's special anointed ones who would be one of the two witnesses who would prophesy in the end times, mentioned in Revelation 11. Unfortunately, he didn't mention the other witness who would be standing with him? Obviously, he was a bit delusional, but he did speak about his "mantle" and special calling more than once in the early days and the others not only revered him, but were in submission to his suggestions. From his own statements, I would deduct that William Irvine did have a Messianic Complex, which contributed to the charismatic aura surrounding him? Would a "particularly dangerous cult" expel its charismatic founder?
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 15, 2014 14:04:05 GMT -5
What Hat ~ Did you forget about William Irvine, the 2x2 founder, and what he claimed to be in his Omega Gospel? He spoke of himself as one of God's special anointed ones who would be one of the two witnesses who would prophesy in the end times, mentioned in Revelation 11. Unfortunately, he didn't mention the other witness who would be standing with him? Obviously, he was a bit delusional, but he did speak about his "mantle" and special calling more than once in the early days and the others not only revered him, but were in submission to his suggestions. From his own statements, I would deduct that William Irvine did have a Messianic Complex, which contributed to the charismatic aura surrounding him? Would a "particularly dangerous cult" expel its charismatic founder? Fixit ~ They would expel their leader, if is new Omega Gospel threatened their livelihood, which it did. Actually, if they went along with his chain of thought, the 2x2's would have faded from existence long ago. However, he was the originator of the 2x2's and did have a Messianic Complex, which ties into the leadership of most cultic groups. Therefore, the 2x2's do have this historical fact connected to their existence. However, there have been a number of overseers since then who have also demonstrated an abuse of power in their position and we have the scandals to back up this fact.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 15, 2014 14:08:10 GMT -5
Thanks what hat, I agree. it is not uncommon for "negative" reviews in books or whatever, of particular groups of people , to actually make many of the authors other views also not so "trustworthy", to the reader , if the reader personally knows people of the group ,and their experience and observations are different. Of course, if their experiences are similar, it underlines or reassures the reader that " thus guy knows what he's talking about. ". I understand why some people because of their horrible treatment in the 2x2 church, consider it a cult, and why others do not. It is what it is. Good and bad, like most everything. Labeling, stereotyping, name calling is harmful and disrespectful, but sometimes the only way to educate the offenders is by actually being and living , opposite to the accusations thrown at them. That takes humility, not my forte. As a kid, I experienced some ridicule etc, since I was raised in a somewhat conservative Mennonite sect. Later on, when I professed , I remember walking in a m all with some of the friends, conservatively dressed etc. I overheard another group of people ridiculing us, as simple Mennonite etc. It was a lesson to me somehow. Father forgive them, they don't know what they're talking about. As humans, we just are like that. If you are different than me- YOU are the "different" one and I am normal. Hmmmmmmmmm. Some years ago, a person, who spoke in a unique way and had certain mannerisms, easy target for ridicule. He and his wife walked into a restaurant and were seated in a booth where the group of young boys behind them, did not know they were there. The boys happened to be having a hilarious time, mocking and imitating this "weird" person, doubling over in laughter etc. Etc. The couple left earlier, and when the boys went to pay for their meal, they were told that a certain Mr Penner had paid for all of them, the very person they had ridiculed. Hmmmmmmmmm. Their "experience" with this "weirdo " probably changed their opinion of him forever, and call him a cultist or anything else might , not ring a bell with them again. Mr Penner has since past on, along with his unique ways, but I bet those boys have good memories of him Alvin Netflix has quite a few movies that are low-budget life studies. Mrs. What and I enjoy watching these, most of the time. Anyway, a really interesting one is called "The Station Agent" and is about the struggles of a dwarf. I recommend it. Some people can't resist picking on him, but he also gets great support, and from people you might not expect. Good story. WhatHat ~ I will have to check that movie out on Netflix called "The Station Agent." It sounds like something I would enjoy watching, too. Thanks for sharing!
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 15, 2014 14:18:13 GMT -5
In support of my view that William Irvine demonstrated a Messianic Complex, here's a sampling of William Irvine's "New Thing" he was proposing in 1914 and how he felt he fitted within the whole picture of God's Plan, found within Chapter 21 of Cherie's book on TTT.
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/21wmibook.php Chapter 21
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Dec 15, 2014 14:51:54 GMT -5
Would a "particularly dangerous cult" expel its charismatic founder? What Hat ~ They would expel their leader, if is new Omega Gospel threatened their livelihood, which it did. Actually, if they went along with his chain of thought, the 2x2's would have faded from existence long ago. However, he was the originator of the 2x2's and did have a Messianic Complex, which ties into the leadership of most cultic groups. Therefore, the 2x2's do have this historical fact connected to their existence. However, there have been a number of overseers since then who have also demonstrated an abuse of power in their position and we have the scandals to back up this fact. "Orthodox" Christianity has a very ugly past - far worse than any dirt you can dig up on the 2x2 movement. Should we examine atrocities of the past, or rather discuss the situation in the 21st century?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 17:39:38 GMT -5
The real truth is that every Christian sect, group or denomination is a "cult" by definition in its original and broadest sense. In this way the term "cult" has a benign value. Every sect, denomination or group is potentially dangerous if the believe and teach wrong doctrine (in the words of Paul..."Let them be accursed,"), and/or use right or wrong doctrine in a harmful way, e.g. spiritual abuse, for control purposes, etc.
Therefore every sect, group or denomination is a "potentially" dangerous cult if they are not believing and teaching correct doctrine and practicing their beliefs correctly. If you do not believe me, go study the 7 churches in the Book of Revelation AND they were the TRUE church!
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 15, 2014 17:58:08 GMT -5
What Hat ~ They would expel their leader, if is new Omega Gospel threatened their livelihood, which it did. Actually, if they went along with his chain of thought, the 2x2's would have faded from existence long ago. However, he was the originator of the 2x2's and did have a Messianic Complex, which ties into the leadership of most cultic groups. Therefore, the 2x2's do have this historical fact connected to their existence. However, there have been a number of overseers since then who have also demonstrated an abuse of power in their position and we have the scandals to back up this fact. "Orthodox" Christianity has a very ugly past - far worse than any dirt you can dig up on the 2x2 movement. Should we examine atrocities of the past, or rather discuss the situation in the 21st century? Fixit ~ I'm well aware of the history of the Church down through the centuries under the leadership of the RCC and some Protestant groups up until the 18th century. I find little to justify such abuse of power by the organized church back in time as demonstrated during the Inquisitions, Crusades, and Witch Hunts. These were all methods in which the Church forced its opinions upon others and destroyed anybody who objected to their policies. Not exactly anything Jesus would have supported as being justified and definitely not following the teachings of Jesus while on this earth!
However, it was the early beliefs of the Christians and ECF's, like Polycarp and Ignatius, which gives us some understanding into the fundamental beliefs considered sacred in the early church. I believe I brought out earlier that Jesus' divinity and relationship with the Father was very much stressed along with the work of the Holy Spirit behind the scenes. The fact that Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to be our Comforter and therefore would be with us always, even to the end of the age, speaks of the triune Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit was simply a force and possessed no character qualities unique to itself, I might agree with you on that one, but this is not the case.
Personally, I don't feel you can dismiss the teachings of William Irvine, Edward Cooney, and the early workers that lightly, since the what these men proposed is still being taught very much today by the workers within the fellowship. Unfortunately, the leader was buried in secrecy for years due to his Omega Gospel coming into question in 1914 and threatening the future of the 2x2's. It doesn't surprise me that they would create a whole new story going back to the shores of Galilee to cover up his involvement and contribution to the fellowship under the circumstances. It's just that they professed to be the "Perfect Way" and "Truth," yet they lie and engage in cover-up of their leader, CSA scandals, and a number of other abuses within the fellowship. Where's the integrity in such a display of corruption within?
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 15, 2014 18:03:37 GMT -5
The real truth is that every Christian sect, group or denomination is a "cult" by definition in its original and broadest sense. In this way the term "cult" has a benign value. Every sect, denomination or group is potentially dangerous if the believe and teach wrong doctrine (in the words of Paul..."Let them be accursed,"), and/or use right or wrong doctrine in a harmful way, e.g. spiritual abuse, for control purposes, etc. Therefore every sect, group or denomination is a "potentially" dangerous cult if they are not believing and teaching correct doctrine and practicing their beliefs correctly. If you do not believe me, go study the 7 churches in the Book of Revelation AND they were the TRUE church! Ram ~ I agree. That's why sound doctrine based in scripture is so important here. It can have damaging effects upon your spiritual life if you are embracing a lie masquerading as the truth, regardless how acceptable it may appear to your senses. Paul and the other apostles also counseled the believers about being discerning about was being taught by comparing it to scripture. John's letters to the seven (7) churches in Revelations 2 - 3 also deals with the dangers of some of the false doctrines in their day corrupting their beliefs in Christ.
However, I couldn't help thinking about William Irvine equated to the Letters to the Seven Churches in Chapter 21 of Cherie's book on TTT. It's a real mind binder in itself!
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202-3&version=ESV Revelation 2 - 3
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/21wmibook.php Chapter 21
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 18:05:53 GMT -5
The real truth is that every Christian sect, group or denomination is a "cult" by definition in its original and broadest sense. In this way the term "cult" has a benign value. Every sect, denomination or group is potentially dangerous if the believe and teach wrong doctrine (in the words of Paul..."Let them be accursed,"), and/or use right or wrong doctrine in a harmful way, e.g. spiritual abuse, for control purposes, etc. Therefore every sect, group or denomination is a "potentially" dangerous cult if they are not believing and teaching correct doctrine and practicing their beliefs correctly. If you do not believe me, go study the 7 churches in the Book of Revelation AND they were the TRUE church! Ram ~ I agree. That's why sound doctrine based in scripture is so important here. It can have damaging effects upon your spiritual life if you are embracing a lie masquerading as the truth, regardless how acceptable it may appear to your senses. You're right Faune. Many people confuse Sound Doctrine with the Sound of Doctrine!
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 15, 2014 18:42:40 GMT -5
Here's what William Irvine shared about the last days and the message to the seven (7) churches in Revelation 2 - 3, which he renamed by location, found in Chapter 21 of Cherie's book on TTT. I might comment that there were only two churches that were commended by their works in these letters as not needing to repent or change their ways ~ Smyrna and Philadelphia. So, if you are living in Eastern USA or Eastern Canada and New Foundland, you are "approved" in God's eyes and not in need of repentance. Previously, I shared another excerpt that preceded this excerpt below, marked simply as Cont'd...
What amazes me here is that the areas of Eastern USA and Eastern Canada & New Foundland I believe were under George Walker's jurisdiction as overseer in the East. However, William Irvine's personal view of George Walker changed greatly in later letters, as can be found in Chapter 11 of Cherie's book. In fact, George Walker was the one counted most responsible for removing Irvine's memory from the group.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202-3&version=ESV Revelation 2 - 3 www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/11wmibook.php#STEPPINGDOWN Chapter 11
ttp://www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/21wmibook.php Chapter 21
Note: I believe there was a typo. error made above in the dates of the Alpha Gospel. Instead of 1893 to 1914, I believe it should have been 1897 to 1914, since Wm. Irvine wasn't even a member of the Faith Mission until 1895 and started working independently in 1897, although still on the Faith Mission membership role until January 1901.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 15, 2014 19:48:24 GMT -5
What I found interesting to ponder from Chapter 11 was that it was "The Living Witness Doctrine" that was instituted between 1904 and 1905 under Irvine that brought about his defeat according to Edward Cooney. It seemed power went to his head and he became all the more grandiose in his perceptions of himself after its incorporation into their gospel message and remains in effect to this day.
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/11wmibook.php#STEPPINGDOWN Chapter 11
|
|
|
Post by faune on Dec 15, 2014 20:18:29 GMT -5
I also found it intriguing how the other workers went about to "erase the memory of William Irvine" forever from the fellowship as seen in this excerpt from Chapter 11 of Cherie's book on TTT.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Dec 15, 2014 21:50:56 GMT -5
I respect William Irvine for what he lived and taught in the early days of his ministry, and I believe many of his colleagues continued to respect him for that even after it became necessary to part ways with him.
It makes sense to me that they tried to focus on what Jesus lived and taught rather than on William Irvine.
I feel the workers made a serious error when they denied the beginnings after the Secret Sect was published.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 15, 2014 22:09:57 GMT -5
I respect William Irvine for what he lived and taught in the early days of his ministry, and I believe many of his colleagues continued to respect him for that even after it became necessary to part ways with him. It makes sense to me that they tried to focus on what Jesus lived and taught rather than on William Irvine. I feel the workers made a serious error when they denied the beginnings after the Secret Sect was published. I think the workers error was a long time before that.
The workers simply had to have realized that through all those years when they said nothing about the beginnings, -that people believed that it went back to the original 12 apostles.
They seemed to become very adept at NOT answering anyone's questions, leaving naive & trusting people to believe that!
And the workers allowed that belief to continue all those years! Even workers would go into the work believing it!
Their "mealy mouthing" (one of my mom's favorite sayings ) around about it after it became well known just made things worse1
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Dec 15, 2014 22:16:23 GMT -5
Honesty about the beginnings, and the intention to focus on what Jesus lived and taught, didn't need to be mutually exclusive.
I think the fellowship would have been much better off if they had taught both.
People want honest answers. I remember a worker being asked about the beginnings by a new listener before gospel meeting started. His answer was something like "just keep coming to the meetings and your questions will be answered".
|
|
|
Post by emy on Dec 15, 2014 22:46:38 GMT -5
How could WI be a charismatic Messianic leader when very few in the fellowship even knew about him until the 70's or so? And i suppose many still don't know!!
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Dec 16, 2014 0:49:48 GMT -5
How could WI be a charismatic Messianic leader when very few in the fellowship even knew about him until the 70's or so? And i suppose many still don't know!! I believe he was known as "a visiting worker" in his travels, rather than "a charismatic Messianic leader".
|
|