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Post by faune on Dec 16, 2014 1:09:37 GMT -5
In answer to your question, just check out Chapter 21 in Cherie's book to see how William Irvine viewed himself by 1914. I'm sure you would be shocked by what you discover here? I believed I supplied this link earlier, but it's repeated below.
Also, if you check out Chapter 11 in the same book on TTT, you will find out why the other workers erased his memory from their 2x2 history for most part, which was promoted by George Walker and the other early workers, with the exception of Edward Cooney. However, Cooney who also ex-communicated in 1928 due to his disagreement over the Living Witness Doctrine and the hierarchy in the fellowship. This same pattern is still in effect today and very much a part of the workers' gospel message being still preached.
If you read the descriptions that Irvine gives of himself and his view place in history during the last days, it's not hard to derive from his statements that the man suffered from "visions of grandeur" and probably possessed what they call in Psychology a "Messianic Complex?" This feature is sometimes seen in people with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/11wmibook.php#STEPPINGDOWN Chapter 11 (William Irvine Stepping Down)
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/21wmibook.php Chapter 21 (William Irvine's Omega Doctrine)
Here's the outline of what is covered in Chapter 21 below. By pressing on the highlighted titles, you will be brought to the letters where he addresses himself in this way.
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Post by Lee on Dec 16, 2014 2:02:25 GMT -5
How could WI be a charismatic Messianic leader when very few in the fellowship even knew about him until the 70's or so? And i suppose many still don't know!! What is it about the F&W that's so charismatic that the average Joe doesn't care who might have founded the sect? Maybe because it doesn't take much to stimulate the average Joe? Or is it because the world is so bad that one can be charismatic simply for rejecting it?
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Post by Lee on Dec 16, 2014 2:18:27 GMT -5
The pious, egalitarian, camaraderie generated from the act of "giving away all possessions" is intoxicating, and will be for many generations to come. While capitalism epitomizes the spirit of our age, I don't know that it can produce a sustainable earth. In hindsight we may look upon the 2x2's as visionaries were we to compare them with their Christian counterparts.
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Post by Lee on Dec 16, 2014 2:22:55 GMT -5
Of course most 2x2's and Christians alike embrace the terminal earth scenario, that we exist for now in a terminal and temporal cosmos. Was Jesus an "earth-first" person or not? Ah, what do I know? Nothing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 4:29:50 GMT -5
Of course most 2x2's and Christians alike embrace the terminal earth scenario, that we exist for now in a terminal and temporal cosmos. Was Jesus an "earth-first" person or not? Ah, what do I know? Nothing. Lee, when someone makes them-self like myself, I get worried! Now that you know something, I still have the edge!
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Post by emy on Dec 16, 2014 15:52:15 GMT -5
How could WI be a charismatic Messianic leader when very few in the fellowship even knew about him until the 70's or so? And i suppose many still don't know!! I believe he was known as "a visiting worker" in his travels, rather than "a charismatic Messianic leader". Not in our generation! (good comment!)
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2014 17:35:26 GMT -5
How could WI be a charismatic Messianic leader when very few in the fellowship even knew about him until the 70's or so? And i suppose many still don't know!! What is it about the F&W that's so charismatic that the average Joe doesn't care who might have founded the sect? Maybe because it doesn't take much to stimulate the average Joe? Or is it because the world is so bad that one can be charismatic simply for rejecting it? I think that the average person did & does care who might have founded "THE WAY,THE TRUTH," as we called it! That is why that so many were so upset when they finally found out the truth behind the THE TRUTH as to when & who started it.
Some left, -others had to begin rationalizing the facts in different ways. ( assisted by the workers)
I don't know what rationalization that the workers gave when they finally had to admit when & where the TRUTH started, but I can guess.
I can almost hear,
"It isn't important about such matters, it is about what is the "true" way." or "It is not about any earthly time & place , but what is spiritually right."
Other religions have done the same. When a failed prophecy such as end times didn't materialize, they just reset the date with a different rationalization.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2014 17:44:48 GMT -5
Of course most 2x2's and Christians alike embrace the terminal earth scenario, that we exist for now in a terminal and temporal cosmos. Was Jesus an "earth-first" person or not? Ah, what do I know? Nothing. Nearly all religions, not just the 2x2's and Christians, believe in end times & end of the earth .
Seems to me a bit of hubris on our part to think that we are so important.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 18, 2014 10:42:56 GMT -5
The pious, egalitarian, camaraderie generated from the act of "giving away all possessions" is intoxicating, and will be for many generations to come. While capitalism optimizes the spirit of our age, I don't know that it can produce a sustainable earth. In hindsight we may look upon the 2x2's as visionaries were we to compare them with their Christian counterparts. It still is true even throughout the Christian world of today. I get tired of the Christmas season due to the fact that not only do put have to put money out for their families and for their co-workers, but they're hit up for donations for the hungry, the different agencies that function year-around.....I got onto one lady who kept calling me wanting me to donate a grand sum of money to the breast cancer group....I asked her how could they think that asking for money this time of year was appropriate considering that they have ALL year that supposedly they are helping victims of breast cancer.....esp. when in light of the unemployed and the homeless folks are being used for getting donations here and there and everywhere within the city. She was stumped for an answer....I asked her if she was aware that times have changed...that backed 20 yrs. ago that yes, esp. in this area there were no such things as unemployment and that the average wage earner in the area was well above 10 dollars an hour, but now most people were glad to have a job that paid minimum wage...just to have a job. That yes, maybe 20 yrs. ago when the cancer society first began helping many people that people had the money at Christmas time to donate to all kinds of charities......I told her that she needed to get back with her fellows and look at these things and try to aim at a different time so they'd get more money in the long run. Her reply was, "People are usually more willing to donate at Christmas time." I told her that again that's what I meant about the 20 yrs. ago and that mindset is no longer available here during Christmas time. That many were only getting absolute have to's for Christmas. I can tell the merchants are hurting in their Christmas sales, flyers coming out about every 3rd or 4th day with more and more in store stock marked down to even 60 per cent. Things that they know they can't move after Christmas like the expensive toys, etc I've gotten dunes for donations from 2 of the places that prepare holiday meals for anyone who wants to walk in off the street. They used to keep it only for the homeless but now anyone and this burns me up.....people who have the money end up there to eat to "save" money!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 18, 2014 10:46:13 GMT -5
What is it about the F&W that's so charismatic that the average Joe doesn't care who might have founded the sect? Maybe because it doesn't take much to stimulate the average Joe? Or is it because the world is so bad that one can be charismatic simply for rejecting it? I think that the average person did & does care who might have founded "THE WAY,THE TRUTH," as we called it! That is why that so many were so upset when they finally found out the truth behind the THE TRUTH as to when & who started it.
Some left, -others had to begin rationalizing the facts in different ways. ( assisted by the workers)
I don't know what rationalization that the workers gave when they finally had to admit when & where the TRUTH started, but I can guess.
I can almost hear,
"It isn't important about such matters, it is about what is the "true" way." or "It is not about any earthly time & place , but what is spiritually right."
Other religions have done the same. When a failed prophecy such as end times didn't materialize, they just reset the date with a different rationalization.
Awww, the favorite worker reply is, "I don't know why people are so upset! This goes clear back before the world ever became!" I suppose that means that there was some worker there that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were completely in the dark about! That being the case, I figure that's more reason to run away as far as one can!
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Post by Lee on Dec 18, 2014 21:37:40 GMT -5
What is it about the F&W that's so charismatic that the average Joe doesn't care who might have founded the sect? Maybe because it doesn't take much to stimulate the average Joe? Or is it because the world is so bad that one can be charismatic simply for rejecting it? I think that the average person did & does care who might have founded "THE WAY,THE TRUTH," as we called it! That is why that so many were so upset when they finally found out the truth behind the THE TRUTH as to when & who started it.
Some left, -others had to begin rationalizing the facts in different ways. ( assisted by the workers)
I don't know what rationalization that the workers gave when they finally had to admit when & where the TRUTH started, but I can guess.
I can almost hear,
"It isn't important about such matters, it is about what is the "true" way." or "It is not about any earthly time & place , but what is spiritually right."
Other religions have done the same. When a failed prophecy such as end times didn't materialize, they just reset the date with a different rationalization.
Romanticism and post-modernism is an escape from the cold, calculated ways of modernism which marginalized God. 2x2ism sprouted during this era which continues today. Somewhat naturally, if awkwardly, the finding of a founder falls upon deaf ears.
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Post by What Hat on Dec 20, 2014 10:30:16 GMT -5
Isn't this a bit ironic coming from a web site that purports to provide "Biblical truth" and by name tells us all Roman Catholics, Mormons, et cetera are wrong. I guess it takes one to know one. The one characteristic of every "dangerous cult" that the friends do not have, is a single charismatic Messianic leader. This characteristic appears on all the lists I've seen, and as I've underlined on the CARM list too. This gives them at least some measure of checks and balances on egregiously bad leaders. What Hat ~ In relation to your statement highlighted above, did you forget about 2x2 originator or founder, William Irvine, and what he claimed to be in his Omega Gospel and also hinted at in his Alpha Gospel? He spoke of himself as one of God's special anointed ones who would be one of the two witnesses who would prophesy in the end times, mentioned in Revelation 11. Unfortunately, he didn't mention the other witness who would be standing with him? Perhaps Edward Cooney? Obviously, he was a bit delusional, but he did speak about his "mantle" and "special calling" more than once in the early days of the 2x2's. Also, the others not only revered him, but were in submission to his suggestions regarding their teaching style and promotion of "The Living Witness Doctrine."
From his own statements, I would assume that William Irvine did have a Messianic Complex, which contributed to the charismatic aura surrounding him? Just check out Chapter 21 in Cherie's book on TTT for a good illustration of what William Irvine taught and believed about himself for a real eye opener. It's enough to give you "goose bumps" to read his letters in which he shared what he believed about himself in God's plan for the world. He also predicted the world's end would begin in August 1914 and it would be the end of the age of grace, too. Instead, it became the beginning of his end among the other workers who saw their place in the ministry being threatened by his mental state and began to entertain ex-communication for their leader.
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/21wmibook.php
No, I certainly didn't forget that. But all that was later in Irvine's life. Unfortunately, his psyche was such that as other workers were calling him to account for his actions, he began to see himself as "more right" and them as "more wrong". And that's fine, if you have a great cause, but in his case, it was philandering with women. So, I think it is to the group's credit that they had sufficient good sense to expel the man, and stick to their principles. Had the Irvine loyalists won out, they would indeed be a cult today. Instead, they have had a positive growth over the years, and might still overcome their present difficulties. Another thing about actual "dangerous cults". They don't last over 100 years. A messianic egomaniac leader can arise in any church. It's a question of whether such a person can thrive that is the issue. Some head workers have no doubt had issues along that line. Good organizations protect themselves by a) voting for their leaders, b) not having a life term, and other mechanisms. Why not have head workers do only a few years, then do something else? But at least the workers do distribute power over a large number of workers so that works in their favour. They do demote head workers, give them less responsibility and so on, whether the issue is "ego" or just lack of capability, and that is all for the good health of the ministry.
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Post by What Hat on Dec 20, 2014 10:33:59 GMT -5
Of course most 2x2's and Christians alike embrace the terminal earth scenario, that we exist for now in a terminal and temporal cosmos. Was Jesus an "earth-first" person or not? Ah, what do I know? Nothing. Nearly all religions, not just the 2x2's and Christians, believe in end times & end of the earth .
Seems to me a bit of hubris on our part to think that we are so important.
You mean so important that we think Earth will never end, or so important to think that our religion is the one to be saved when it does end.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 20, 2014 11:32:19 GMT -5
The sad story of William Irvine just brought to my mind an actual happening locally with a very Messianic Christian preacher....back in my preteens and teen years there was a Baptist church's minister who preach hellfire and damnation and surprisingly he was able to build his church up into the 100's of members. Well, the church they had at the time was a triangular building across the street from the local library and when the local library built a new one further out of downtown area, then a local TV station moved into the old library building.....so this fine uproaring preacher decided it was a sin to have such a large church audience next door to a local TV station. So he had a new church built for them not too far from where I lived. That church was a very simple 3 story building with classrooms on the top floor, the chapel on the ground floor and in the basement they had their social areas. This hell fire and brimstone preacher had a yearly revival and most times it was always himself who was the preacher...well during that first year in the new church after a Sat. evening revival meeting, the attic caught fire and was noted by passerbys about 2 hrs. after everyone had left the church. The story went that he'd preached such a hot firestorm sermon that he burned his own church's attic and top floor out! Well, it was early spring, so they pitched a tent for their church services through the summer and then they'd gone down the major street toward our area and bought another 3 lots and built a very ornate church and they were able to get enough money out of the burned out building with insurance and then selling the building as is and lot to pay to get this church up that summer and had their grand opening within the winter holiday time. This new church would seat probably 1200 people and the church membership got nearly that big...well, this fine preacher retired and went off to the southern states to get away from our icy winter weather....eventually most of the membership left and went back to the original building which still was Baptist but had different ministry OR went to other churches in the city....someone bought the building and it is now a parochial school for grades 9-12...or it was last I checked! I cannot imagine having that beautiful chapel as a school's auditorium, but hey it works! hah!
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Post by faune on Dec 20, 2014 14:16:15 GMT -5
What is it about the F&W that's so charismatic that the average Joe doesn't care who might have founded the sect? Maybe because it doesn't take much to stimulate the average Joe? Or is it because the world is so bad that one can be charismatic simply for rejecting it? I think that the average person did & does care who might have founded "THE WAY,THE TRUTH," as we called it! That is why that so many were so upset when they finally found out the truth behind the THE TRUTH as to when & who started it.
Some left, -others had to begin rationalizing the facts in different ways. ( assisted by the workers)
I don't know what rationalization that the workers gave when they finally had to admit when & where the TRUTH started, but I can guess.
I can almost hear,
"It isn't important about such matters, it is about what is the "true" way." or "It is not about any earthly time & place , but what is spiritually right."
Other religions have done the same. When a failed prophecy such as end times didn't materialize, they just reset the date with a different rationalization.
DMG ~ Perhaps the thing that really disgusted people was finding out they were lied to all these years and that the early workers "re-wrote history" for the 2x2's to cover up their lies. Honestly, for any group that prides themselves in being called "The Truth," and the only "Perfect Way," they truly didn't set a very good example of such by their actions! However, let's not forget all the CSA sex scandals connected with the 2x2's either, because that's also very much a part of their history which was also covered up for years until brought out into the light in recent years. Besides promoting a different gospel message and another Jesus to fit their purposes, a lie is a lie, no matter how much they might try to dress it up to be make it presentable. JMT
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hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Dec 20, 2014 14:42:14 GMT -5
How could WI be a charismatic Messianic leader when very few in the fellowship even knew about him until the 70's or so? And i suppose many still don't know!! Being ex-communicated didn't eliminate his charisma, just eliminated him as an influence on those who remained. The fact so few knew about him shows how well the silent treatment worked. It sounds like he was well respected in Jerusalem, however.
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Post by emy on Dec 21, 2014 1:31:05 GMT -5
How could WI be a charismatic Messianic leader when very few in the fellowship even knew about him until the 70's or so? And i suppose many still don't know!! Being ex-communicated didn't eliminate his charisma, just eliminated him as an influence on those who remained. The fact so few knew about him shows how well the silent treatment worked. It sounds like he was well respected in Jerusalem, however. I guess I should have been more clear... How could he be a charismatic, messianic leader of the F&W when hardly any of them knew about him?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 21, 2014 1:57:27 GMT -5
Being ex-communicated didn't eliminate his charisma, just eliminated him as an influence on those who remained. The fact so few knew about him shows how well the silent treatment worked. It sounds like he was well respected in Jerusalem, however. I guess I should have been more clear... How could he be a charismatic, messianic leader of the F&W when hardly any of them knew about him? There isn't any better way to marginalize someone than to never mention their name. That is basically how the other workers handled him until those how "professed" later (except for a elite few) didn't know that he ever existed.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Dec 21, 2014 10:10:26 GMT -5
Being ex-communicated didn't eliminate his charisma, just eliminated him as an influence on those who remained. The fact so few knew about him shows how well the silent treatment worked. It sounds like he was well respected in Jerusalem, however. I guess I should have been more clear... How could he be a charismatic, messianic leader of the F&W when hardly any of them knew about him? You were perfectly clear. However, in the early days, he was well known--especially back where this all started. Once he became a pariah, Jack Carroll did a good job of making sure those in the West who had heard him never mentioned him. I don't know about Ireland or Scotland, as all my professing family came from the NW during the days of Jack Carroll.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2014 12:11:38 GMT -5
As a very young child, I remember some elderly workers and my Gram speaking about EC but never mentioned WI! Course my Gram was living in western CO when BC was hushing all the friends and workers up about WI. I think it was tried to hush them up about EC, but the hymns that were in the hymnbooks let that one out of the bag! I think it was asked of the elder workers pretty frequently who was EC that wrote such and such a hymn.....course they didn't have the names on the hymns to start with, but then the next hymnbooks did! But many of the older friends knew that EC had written those hymns and they told others and others told others. EC is still spoken of on some occasions. I'm not certain though that any younger friends and workers are acquainted that EC had been one of the original workers or not...course they wouldn't if they didn't know that there had been any original workers beyond Jesus Christ and his 12 Apostles!
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Post by snow on Dec 21, 2014 13:44:17 GMT -5
Being ex-communicated didn't eliminate his charisma, just eliminated him as an influence on those who remained. The fact so few knew about him shows how well the silent treatment worked. It sounds like he was well respected in Jerusalem, however. I guess I should have been more clear... How could he be a charismatic, messianic leader of the F&W when hardly any of them knew about him? Your workers are the product of his leadership and beginnings. I would say that there are still elements of him in the worker mentality though I am sure that has evolved somewhat since he was excommunicated. So although it is not immediately evident, I am sure you are still being influenced by him without even knowing he existed through the thoughts and beliefs he inspired in his group from the beginning.
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Post by emy on Dec 21, 2014 14:58:02 GMT -5
I guess I should have been more clear... How could WI be a charismatic, messianic leader of the F&W when hardly any of them knew about him? Your workers are the product of his leadership and beginnings. I would say that there are still elements of him in the worker mentality though I am sure that has evolved somewhat since he was excommunicated. So although it is not immediately evident, I am sure you are still being influenced by him without even knowing he existed through the thoughts and beliefs he inspired in his group from the beginning. I would never say there is no influence. But that is quite different from a charismatic leader who has at least somewhat held himself up as a messiah. By the time WI was doing that, his influence in the fellowship had diminished, especially among his co-workers apparently. Many strong personalities leave an influence, and the same is true of workers, but we really do not have a standout charismatic leader and have never had, imo. Obviously, my experience is limited to the last 50 years, or so.
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hberry
Senior Member
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Post by hberry on Dec 21, 2014 15:12:13 GMT -5
I guess I should have been more clear... How could he be a charismatic, messianic leader of the F&W when hardly any of them knew about him? Your workers are the product of his leadership and beginnings. I would say that there are still elements of him in the worker mentality though I am sure that has evolved somewhat since he was excommunicated. So although it is not immediately evident, I am sure you are still being influenced by him without even knowing he existed through the thoughts and beliefs he inspired in his group from the beginning. In going through my grandma/mom's stuff, I noticed a list of the workers and friends at the 1907 Chicago convention. There were 38 workers and 27 friends (not listed), and Wm I, Jack Carroll, and Geo Walker were there. If those statistics are typical of the early days, then I suspect WI's influence in the US was greater on the workers than on the friends. Through the workers, of course, then on to the friends--but not directly from WI. In my neck of the woods, there weren't a lot of good speakers in the work, so the few that were good were appreciated.
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 21, 2014 15:31:07 GMT -5
Your workers are the product of his leadership and beginnings. I would say that there are still elements of him in the worker mentality though I am sure that has evolved somewhat since he was excommunicated. So although it is not immediately evident, I am sure you are still being influenced by him without even knowing he existed through the thoughts and beliefs he inspired in his group from the beginning. In going through my grandma/mom's stuff, I noticed a list of the workers and friends at the 1907 Chicago convention. There were 38 workers and 27 friends (not listed), and Wm I, Jack Carroll, and Geo Walker were there. If those statistics are typical of the early days, then I suspect WI's influence in the US was greater on the workers than on the friends. Through the workers, of course, then on to the friends--but not directly from WI. In my neck of the woods, there weren't a lot of good speakers in the work, so the few that were good were appreciated. [/quot Reminds me of telling an ex about so and so (worker in this case) had a stroke , and was having a hard time to speak in meetings. His response, "so not really any change then, eh?" Ya, badd joke. insert whatever name into joke that works, I guess. Alvin
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Post by snow on Dec 21, 2014 15:42:25 GMT -5
Your workers are the product of his leadership and beginnings. I would say that there are still elements of him in the worker mentality though I am sure that has evolved somewhat since he was excommunicated. So although it is not immediately evident, I am sure you are still being influenced by him without even knowing he existed through the thoughts and beliefs he inspired in his group from the beginning. In going through my grandma/mom's stuff, I noticed a list of the workers and friends at the 1907 Chicago convention. There were 38 workers and 27 friends (not listed), and Wm I, Jack Carroll, and Geo Walker were there. If those statistics are typical of the early days, then I suspect WI's influence in the US was greater on the workers than on the friends. Through the workers, of course, then on to the friends--but not directly from WI. In my neck of the woods, there weren't a lot of good speakers in the work, so the few that were good were appreciated. I have stuff from my step grandmother on my dad's side that dates to late 1919 and there was a lot of influence from Jack Carroll. There was a year long list of bible study chapters that I found in her stuff. Also lots of convention notes and letters from workers in that day. Interesting stuff actually.
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 21, 2014 15:50:23 GMT -5
Snow, I think Cherie is always interested in any ot that stuff for date confirmation etc. You probably have been in contact with her already, just in case there is something you have of historical interest to add to the mountain of information she has already gathered. Alvin
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Post by snow on Dec 21, 2014 16:21:50 GMT -5
Snow, I think Cherie is always interested in any ot that stuff for date confirmation etc. You probably have been in contact with her already, just in case there is something you have of historical interest to add to the mountain of information she has already gathered. Alvin I sent some stuff to quizzer awhile back. they had asked for it so they got it.
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 21, 2014 16:43:57 GMT -5
Good Hopefully ,quizzer is good at sharing information also, like Cherie is. Thanks Alvin
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