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Post by minhthanh on Jul 16, 2014 10:03:22 GMT -5
Yesterday uncle Hoa returned from his visit in the south, accompanying him a young guy who was just demobilized from the army, named Giang. He listened the gospel for a long time and professed nearly 4 years ago ( the time beginning the mess). When my husband had stroke, my daughter gave birth to a child, and the baby had critical problem so I had to be beside my daughter and the baby in the hospital to take care. Giang was a pioneer staying at my house to attend my husband. To my family, he was a gold heart. My husband was big but he was smaller…he led my husband by the hand step by step… He joined the army immediately after my husband getting better, 3 years ago. Now he has just fulfilled his military duty and been trained to be a truck driver. Uncle Hoa came to Giang’s house. He saw uncle Hoa moving alone and in the time he was off on leave he took this chance to go with uncle Hoa to many remote places. It has been a month since uncle hoa had an accident. His wounds were healed now he continue going according to the call of the Holy Spirit to bring the love of God to the souls in those distant areas. We only pray God to keep uncle Hoa and Giang when we parted them. As usual uncle Hoa has prepared dry food for themselves and for places they will call at in order not to cause more burdens to friends.
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Jul 16, 2014 11:54:37 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Jul 16, 2014 11:54:37 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing these pictures. Giang sounds like a really nice young man.
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Vietnam
Jul 16, 2014 14:52:20 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 16, 2014 14:52:20 GMT -5
He surely does! He seems to know where he is needed the most! Bless you Giang!
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Post by minhthanh on Jul 18, 2014 6:35:42 GMT -5
He surely does! He seems to know where he is needed the most! Bless you Giang! Giang had a childhood with sadness and difficulties so he always needs God as his source of comfort for his soul. He is less talk, only lives and serves in silence the same as the spirit of hymn " Today is mine to do a loving deed..."We are always happy and encouraged everytime he has chance to communicate with golden friends. In the end of this week our family will go to Dalat for a few days, we expect to meet some golden friends there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 10:37:43 GMT -5
He surely does! He seems to know where he is needed the most! Bless you Giang! Giang had a childhood with sadness and difficulties so he always needs God as his source of comfort for his soul. He is less talk, only lives and serves in silence the same as the spirit of hymn " Today is mine to do a loving deed..."We are always happy and encouraged everytime he has chance to communicate with golden friends. In the end of this week our family will go to Dalat for a few days, we expect to meet some golden friends there. May God richly bless your time with the golden friends.
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Vietnam
Jul 20, 2014 10:39:55 GMT -5
mdm likes this
Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 20, 2014 10:39:55 GMT -5
Bump
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Post by minhthanh on Jul 22, 2014 8:56:49 GMT -5
We had an interesting weekend when we were back in Đalạt ( we used to be here. It is 300 km far from Saigon) where we had fellowship full of memories with friends throughout 25 years. God’s people were very few after we left there. It was about 5 or 6 people. After that there has been a married couple from Hà Nội coming there to live. They have become elders there. We have valued each other and support each other about spirituality and materiality…until the overseer and young workers cooperated to cause the mess in Vietnam. The workers sowed in this couple’s heart many things that caused them had a different perspective on the native workers, the two sister friends and us than formerly and many doubts…Their fellowship meetings had only 6 people, but when the two sister friends went to visit golden friends with us, immediately this new elder had them give a choice… One of the two sister friends answered: “We had chosen in our hearts since long time that we still kept our faithful heart to God, a true fellowship with our friends as usual with love and unity. Now you ask me to give a choice and I have chosen as in my heart. If I continued communicating with you all, it is because I want to keep the love and the support of each other’s spitituality.” It is sad because they still have the love among them but because the elder must obey the workers, they were forced to seperated. I will tell you our visit and fellowship with these two sister friends.
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Jul 22, 2014 9:23:50 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 22, 2014 9:23:50 GMT -5
What a beautiful answer the lady gave the elder!!
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Post by xuanhoan on Jul 22, 2014 18:37:02 GMT -5
I am interested in the words of someone who said that: "if only we had two lives, one life for being able to make mistake, the other one for profiting these mistakes which we could live wisely". Truly, God gives us two lives: one temporary life,the other eternal one. In this temporary life we not only learn to obey God's will but we also experience the love, the hate, the pain, the peace, the unrest, the death...in order in eternity we will value/appreciate the love, the care, the peace from God and enjoy the life, abundant life eternally. I love the attitude of Jesus to sinners. He never condemns them but asks them to go and not sin any more. So in this life, I have seen /experienced the injustice, the violence, the hatred...therefore I love more to live in the Kingdom of God.
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Post by minhthanh on Jul 22, 2014 23:37:42 GMT -5
Before being forced to give a choice, the fellowship meetings at the new elder's house had 6 people. Apart from the two senior sisters, there were a grandmother and an aunt of a young sister worker. (but they seldom attended because the grandmother was old and sick, the aunt had two little babies). We felt sad because it was only a very small group but they were divided although their hearts didn’t agree. Now in a small town there are two seperated fellowship meetings…Every place only 2 people!... One friend retold the story of the visit in Long Thanh to the two senior sisters who asked us again that story. After listening it, one of them sighed: “one more time causing division”. That sister thought of the pain of the elder brother and his younger sister (their mother is the elderly lady in the picture). The elder brother was the man having stroke and sitting in the wheelchair in our recent visit in Long Thanh . Whose little sister was the wife of the elder that the party of Collin, Peter and a native worker coming to seperate them from the meeting. Chị Tâm saw it similarly to her case two years ago. She had a grandson attending an English class at the elder’s house in Dalat. Her grandson didn’t understand why the grandmother didn’t come to the elder’s house (his teacher) to have fellowship any more. The same question was in her son’s mind… it’ hard for her to explain, because she still keep good relationship with the elder’s family (but not in faith) I thought of the verse in the Bible: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.” And feeling sad for the people who caused the division in our country. Today is Wednesday, we are studying in Acts 13:36 38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses." Let me see that the salvation comes from the faith in our Lord, not from the law. I like another verse that our Lord reserved to disciples: “For this is what the Lord has commanded us: I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.”May the workers nowaday continue to respond this, being a light to people and bringing the salvation to the ends of the earth. Tomorrow I will tell about uncle Hoa’s current visit, to very far places
Chị Hoa(on the left) from Dalat traveled throughout 9 hours to Saigon, chi Hai(on the right) from Ban Mê Thuột further, 10 hours to arrive. They happily met again after more than 10 years. They returned home immediately after the gathering because they were very busy. We appreciated their efforts In Dalat, we had the fellowship meeting with two senior sisters at Chị Tâm's house.
Chị Hoa the sister gave the answer to elder...
Chị Tâm with the baby, has a grandson studying English at elder's house. They still visiting together sometimes.
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Post by fixit on Jul 23, 2014 3:55:32 GMT -5
I thought of the verse in the Bible: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.” And feeling sad for the people who caused the division in our country. Thanks for all you've written MT. Those who divide so they can rule are not peacemakers.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:22:40 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 28, 2014 17:22:40 GMT -5
Bump
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 9:21:13 GMT -5
Wanting all you kind people so many miles away to know that just because our lives here are so terribly filled with our own struggles and difficulties, it does not mean you are ever out of our thoughts and prayers. Thinking of those aging, knowing what you face, those still raising children, we have been there too, and those younger yet, knowing the tests and trials of our own youth, we empathize with you too. Please remember we are here, even so far away, caring, thinking of all who have been brought to our minds because of this thread and your help in so many ways, and kindness. Wishing each one peace and the best wellness possible,
Dennis (and Katie)
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Aug 6, 2014 19:25:42 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Aug 6, 2014 19:25:42 GMT -5
Thank you Dennis and all friends on this board. We have been feeling encouraged for your sharing through which we can know the essence of the worshiping of God and being set free from the unnecessary control of human. The gospel of God is like the light of the sun, it helps us to see the way, to go, to work, to grow up...The light is silent. We appreciate those who have brought the gospel to us (not exclusively from two by two religion), then the gospel will be always the light in our life in order we can behave rightly before God and our neighbors. We hope some days more we have more time to communicate with our dear friends on TMB
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 7, 2014 18:01:10 GMT -5
Thank you Dennis and all friends on this board. We have been feeling encouraged for your sharing through which we can know the essence of the worshiping of God and being set free from the unnecessary control of human. The gospel of God is like the light of the sun, it helps us to see the way, to go, to work, to grow up...The light is silent. We appreciate those who have brought the gospel to us (not exclusively from two by two religion), then the gospel will be always the light in our life in order we can behave rightly before God and our neighbors. We hope some days more we have more time to communicate with our dear friends on TMB Minnthanh! Thanks for letting us keep in touch with you...I've been concerned since Edgar M. had left TMB that things would get a bit skewed out of whack so to speak, but prayerfully we all love you folks with Christ-like love and are listening for every experience you feel you can share! You said "The gospel of God is like the light of the sun, it helps us to see the way, to go , to work, to grow up.... The light is silent."The light being silent reminded me of what it says about the new heaven..... Rev 21 "22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.…" How precious the gospel of God is even in the new heaven! And how the Lamb is the lamp thereof! No need for brilliance of sun, coolness of moonbeams or twinkles of stars or even man invented light bulbs and candles! Jesus is the Lamp of the new heaven! So the gospel of God IS light unto us while on earth! Thanks for reminding me of this!
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Post by snow on Aug 10, 2014 18:51:52 GMT -5
Uncle Lyle S. is in Portland, Oregon. One of the Vietnamese friends has invited me to join them for evening. I have a soft spot for the Canadians because my brother and I professed at Guam first convention in 1980 at Stanley Sharpe's last meeting. We first attended Leo Stancliff and Larry Taylor Bible studies on University of Guam campus lawn 1978.
picasaweb.google.com/lwtphotos/38AlbumGuamSaipanConventions#5447705521589436402
In 1986 my 1st year in the work, my older companion John Sterling was invited to SK, for conventions when Stanley was the overseer. When Stantley heard I was John's companion he said to John, bring Nathan along with you. John and I drove our field car to BC, Alberta, SK for conventions... I love Banff, Alberta... Wow! God's works of wonders! The Majestic mountains along the highways.
In SK, there I met Dale S. and he was very kind to me. We had a nice long chat. It was good to see uncle Stanley S. before he died. He was a very special worker to many people. I wish we have more overseers like uncle Stanley, who was so down to earth, very gentle, kind spirit of a man.
It will be nice to meet uncle Lyle S. for the first time tonight.... Stanley Sharpe was one of my favorite workers too. He used to come out to our farm and visit and work. I remember him helping my dad with stuff around the farm, shirt sleeves rolled up and he seemed to really enjoy it. He definitely was kind. Banff is truly beautiful isn't it. I am so glad that I live about an hour and a half away so I can see it often. The Rocky Mountains in that area are truly amazing!
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 10, 2014 20:07:15 GMT -5
If workers were like stanley Sharpe , there would be a lot less exes. He was a kind man from what I knew of him. Alvin
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Aug 11, 2014 19:09:54 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Aug 11, 2014 19:09:54 GMT -5
Uncle Lyle S. is in Portland, Oregon. One of the Vietnamese friends has invited me to join them for evening. I have a soft spot for the Canadians because my brother and I professed at Guam first convention in 1980 at Stanley Sharpe's last meeting. We first attended Leo Stancliff and Larry Taylor Bible studies on University of Guam campus lawn 1978.
picasaweb.google.com/lwtphotos/38AlbumGuamSaipanConventions#5447705521589436402
In 1986 my 1st year in the work, my older companion John Sterling was invited to SK, for conventions when Stanley was the overseer. When Stantley heard I was John's companion he said to John, bring Nathan along with you. John and I drove our field car to BC, Alberta, SK for conventions... I love Banff, Alberta... Wow! God's works of wonders! The Majestic mountains along the highways.
In SK, there I met Dale S. and he was very kind to me. We had a nice long chat. It was good to see uncle Stanley S. before he died. He was a very special worker to many people. I wish we have more overseers like uncle Stanley, who was so down to earth, very gentle, kind spirit of a man.
It will be nice to meet uncle Lyle S. for the first time tonight.... Nathan ... You will meet a humble, gentle, caring man who has an appearance of good morality...We were deceived by this appearance. You should read again the letters I sent to Mr Lyle and I forwarded to you. You have known how much we respected him. But at last we found him such as in the last verse of Hymn 161: "Satan deceived as angel of light. Now I desire no path but Thine own." Perhaps you still remember the fable of the wolf in guise of a sheep...in the end it will disclose its true nature...We have had the same experience with Mr. Lyle... We don't have experience with others...but Mr. Lyle we have known very clearly...He has praised and abetted to the people who caused the mess in our country...
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2014 20:24:07 GMT -5
Uncle Lyle S. is in Portland, Oregon. One of the Vietnamese friends has invited me to join them for evening. I have a soft spot for the Canadians because my brother and I professed at Guam first convention in 1980 at Stanley Sharpe's last meeting. We first attended Leo Stancliff and Larry Taylor Bible studies on University of Guam campus lawn 1978.
picasaweb.google.com/lwtphotos/38AlbumGuamSaipanConventions#5447705521589436402
In 1986 my 1st year in the work, my older companion John Sterling was invited to SK, for conventions when Stanley was the overseer. When Stantley heard I was John's companion he said to John, bring Nathan along with you. John and I drove our field car to BC, Alberta, SK for conventions... I love Banff, Alberta... Wow! God's works of wonders! The Majestic mountains along the highways.
In SK, there I met Dale S. and he was very kind to me. We had a nice long chat. It was good to see uncle Stanley S. before he died. He was a very special worker to many people. I wish we have more overseers like uncle Stanley, who was so down to earth, very gentle, kind spirit of a man.
It will be nice to meet uncle Lyle S. for the first time tonight.... Nathan ... You will meet a humble, gentle, caring man who has an appearance of good morality...We were deceived by this appearance. You should read again the letters I sent to Mr Lyle and I forwarded to you. You have known how much we respected him. But at last we found him such as in the last verse of Hymn 161: "Satan deceived as angel of light. Now I desire no path but Thine own." Perhaps you still remember the fable of the wolf in guise of a sheep...in the end it will disclose its true nature...We have had the same experience with Mr. Lyle... We don't have experience with others...but Mr. Lyle we have known very clearly...He has praised and abetted to the people who caused the mess in our country...
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Post by fixit on Aug 12, 2014 16:57:49 GMT -5
It was a good, friendly first visit and contact with Lyle. That's probably because: We didn't talk or discuss anything about the situation in VN.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:27:58 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Aug 12, 2014 20:27:58 GMT -5
Nathan… Send my greetings to the couple Phú Hòa at Potland where you visited them. We know each other well… My son, their daughter (when she returned to Vietnam) and many other young friends came to Darrel’s apartment to help him to move to another apartment. It is a terrible problem for the workers in Vietnam to move the house…because they have a lot of utensils, not simple as Jesus taught. Hòa is also elder sister of Bình. Here is Bình & Tân with their adopt daughter.
Binh Tan's Family Here is a zealous couple of Bình Tân, they often accompany the workers through many decades the same as Beritsin and Aquila in Acts 18. This couple was victims of Mr. Lyle…the same as the couple in Long Thành recently with Colin (the temperary overseer in Viet Nam). Mr Lyle cut off the meetings in their home which was established by our native workers through many years, also cut off their position as an elder… tranfer the meeting to the next house of her youngest sister !!!. Causing the separation in their family known as full of love and harmony… Can you image there are 5 people at Phương Lâm, now two houses close together, has two fellowship meetings. Only God known who belong to Him and serve Him... It causes the pain in our native workers, because they love their sheep, and never want them to be divided like this. Mr Lyle did the same for my parents’s family too.
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Vietnam
Aug 13, 2014 5:11:50 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Aug 13, 2014 5:11:50 GMT -5
Nathan… Send my greetings to the couple Phú Hòa in Portland when you visited them. We know each other well… My son, their daughter (when she returned to Vietnam) and many other young friends came to Darrel’s apartment to help him to move to another apartment. It is a terrible problem for the workers in Vietnam to move the house…because they have a lot of utensils, not simple as Jesus taught. Hòa is also elder sister of Bình. Here is Bình & Tân with their adopt daughter. Phu and Hoa's family and I attend the same Sunday morning fellowship, so I will send your greeting to them. I was hoping to discuss Vietnam situation with uncle Lyle S. but things didn't open up. He just came from Washington State conventions, and he was tired so I didn't want to discuss something he wasn't ready for. I am glad our visit went well for my first time contact with Lyle. Mike T. overseer is coming to VN for special meetings. He is a very gentle, humble, down to earth person. I know him well. I wish he could be the Overseer in VN and his Washington staff be in charge of things over there. Uncle Hoa was very good when he suggested Mike T. to be VN next overseer in the place of Darrel T.... Bonnie D. Mike T. and Melissa K. came from Washington State staff so they have a great interest of the work in VN.Is Mike Thorstensen the Washington state overseer now?
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Aug 13, 2014 6:48:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 6:48:06 GMT -5
Phu and Hoa's family and I attend the same Sunday morning fellowship, so I will send your greeting to them. I was hoping to discuss Vietnam situation with uncle Lyle S. but things didn't open up. He just came from Washington State conventions, and he was tired so I didn't want to discuss something he wasn't ready for. I am glad our visit went well for my first time contact with Lyle. Mike T. overseer is coming to VN for special meetings. He is a very gentle, humble, down to earth person. I know him well. I wish he could be the Overseer in VN and his Washington staff be in charge of things over there. Uncle Hoa was very good when he suggested Mike T. to be VN next overseer in the place of Darrel T.... Bonnie D. Mike T. and Melissa K. came from Washington State staff so they have a great interest of the work in VN. Is Mike Thorstensen the Washington state overseer now? mark huddle
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Aug 13, 2014 14:22:19 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Aug 13, 2014 14:22:19 GMT -5
Nathan… Send my greetings to the couple Phú Hòa at Potland where you visited them. We know each other well… My son, their daughter (when she returned to Vietnam) and many other young friends came to Darrel’s apartment to help him to move to another apartment. It is a terrible problem for the workers in Vietnam to move the house…because they have a lot of utensils, not simple as Jesus taught. Hòa is also elder sister of Bình. Here is Bình & Tân with their adopt daughter.
Binh Tan's Family Here is a zealous couple of Bình Tân, they often accompany the workers through many decades the same as Beritsin and Aquila in Acts 18. This couple was victims of Mr. Lyle…the same as the couple in Long Thành recently with Colin (the temperary overseer in Viet Nam). Mr Lyle cut off the meetings in their home which was established by our native workers through many years, also cut off their position as an elder… tranfer the meeting to the next house of her youngest sister !!!. Causing the separation in their family known as full of love and harmony… Can you image there are 5 people at Phương Lâm, now two houses close together, has two fellowship meetings. Only God known who belong to Him and serve Him... It causes the pain in our native workers, because they love their sheep, and never want them to be divided like this. Mr Lyle did the same for my parents’s family too. Thanks for telling us about how the foreign "teachers" are dividing the "students" MT. I don't understand why the Vietnamese government gives the foreign "teachers" visas.
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Aug 17, 2014 12:04:49 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Aug 17, 2014 12:04:49 GMT -5
Thanks for telling us about how the foreign "teachers" are dividing the "students" MT. I don't understand why the Vietnamese government gives the foreign "teachers" visas. I had the opportunity to talk to this native worker...I mentioned the verse in the Bible "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. I asked him: "Are these teachers considered as the children of God? I have a lot of doubt!... The fact why the Vietnamese government give these foreign "teachers" visas is still an unknown answer and these foreign "teachers" will be expelled from Vietnam which is a dream of many people in two by two because they don't admire the way they operate in VN. I am also funny at a saying of an elderly lady following the two by two system more than 50 years and still in it. She longs the two native workers to be in charge of leading God's people as before, because these overseers don't do according to the Bible and God has chased them all...She wanted to mention Darrel, Morris, Lyle...She thinks so but I know Mr. Lyle will soon return...no any change...the native workers yet go alone or with them, they don't consider them having no part of work of God in VN.
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Aug 17, 2014 13:36:29 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 17, 2014 13:36:29 GMT -5
Thanks for telling us about how the foreign "teachers" are dividing the "students" MT. I don't understand why the Vietnamese government gives the foreign "teachers" visas. I had the opportunity to talk to this native worker...I mentioned the verse in the Bible "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. I asked him: "Are these teachers considered as the children of God? I have a lot of doubt!... The fact why the Vietnamese government give these foreign "teachers" visas is still an unknown answer and these foreign "teachers" will be expelled from Vietnam which is a dream of many people in two by two because they don't admire the way they operate in VN. I am also funny at a saying of an elderly lady following the two by two system more than 50 years and still in it. She longs the two native workers to be in charge of leading God's people as before, because these overseers don't do according to the Bible and God has chased them all...She wanted to mention Darrel, Morris, Lyle...She thinks so but I know Mr. Lyle will soon return...no any change...the native workers yet go alone or with them, they don't consider them having no part of work of God in VN. Sounds like your vacation from the America/Canadian overseers is about over and I'm sorry about that! I had hoped that when all was said and done that love would reign supreme in the hearts of LS and any other overseer involved in the VN 2x2 business! Sometimes one wants to scream across the nation to those who still are in the 2x2s to please depart now before hell comes back on the back of fancy motorbikes....etc But of course that's a loving way for me to feel about it either. So maybe I'll say "Dear Lord, please intervene there in Vietnam when those America and Canadaian workers return to Vietnam and cause them to either turn over a new leaf and operate with love for those in Vietnam and/or make them feel like they cannot withstand such a life in Vietnam, OR top it all off with the authorities in Vietnam to withdraw the "teacher" visas of the workers that are not natives of Vietnam! And Thank you, God for sparing those lovely folks any more pain and sorrow!"
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Aug 21, 2014 9:49:59 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 21, 2014 9:49:59 GMT -5
Minththanh, I've been meaning to ask when the Vietnamese ladies profess, do the workers try to get them to wear dresses? Or are they satisfied that you clothing is pretty uniform for the whole within your country?
The reason I ask, is when a new female convert is made here in the US, the workers get a big bang out of the new female convert trying to put up her short hair into some kind of bun and when she quits wearing makeup and her clothing is is fashioned after the sister workers' fashion! It's been quite entertaining to listen in on the sister workers conversation about the new converts!
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Aug 23, 2014 7:42:44 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Aug 23, 2014 7:42:44 GMT -5
As far as us concerned, we are very satisfied about what God has showned us, recorded in the Bible in order to teach us. We are happy for the keeping, guiding and providing of God for us through many experiences, even when we have faced the power of religion, but God has put the words in the mouth of God’s people to glorify His Name. Clearly God has protected and fighted for His people as He did for His people in the old time. Today we follow God in honest spirit and truth, and the faith in Jesus Christ who is the only one bring the salvation to us. Yesterday we had a wonderful fellowship with the friends. I have thought of the law of God in Exodus 23
Laws of Justice and Mercy “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness. 2 “Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, 3 and do not show favoritism to a poor person in a lawsuit.
Just after reading the first verse, I felt trembled…the things that God tells not to do , W&F in Vietnam are doing now…causing afflitions to alone and helpless friends. Because of seeing these things, many friends have felt sad… May God help me to know how to live sincerely, not fearing any thing in order I do not follow the crowd, siding with the crowd or giving false testimony to innocent person.
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