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Jan 24, 2014 15:47:42 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 15:47:42 GMT -5
Nathan you foolishly said "NOT every worker can be like Chau and Hoa, running around all over the country seek the lost sheep." but that was the very thing that Jesus asked of his disciples in Mark 16:15 when he said to them, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Are you questioning the wisdom of Jesus in this? Or are you just frantically trying to fit 2x2ism into a Christian teaching that they obviously don't fit or even try to follow .
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Jan 24, 2014 15:52:54 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 24, 2014 15:52:54 GMT -5
~~~ How are the 12 apostles go into ALL the world, when he told them NOT to go to the Gentiles? How is Paul going into All the world when Jesus sent him preaching to the Gentiles? When both groups do as Jesus had assigned them to certain group to labor with certain people because He knows of their/apostles background and abilities/talents. The 12/70 to work among the Jews and lost sheep House of Israel... AND.... Paul, had dual citizenship Jewish/Roman, Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, Luke, John Mark, Titus, and others to work among the Gentiles= to ALL the world. God made it simple! He even outline, assigned the task for them... Less stressful. Just do the task God has given them. Follow His instruction. Uncle Hoa has been called to work among the Vietnamese people. Should he obey the control freak overseers, or obey the leading of the Spirit?
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Jan 24, 2014 16:16:49 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 16:16:49 GMT -5
The 2x2 workers have gone into all the world and preach the gospel as Jesus has commanded in Mark 16:15. Nathan I think you understand as well as I do, that 2x2ism DOES NOT DO as Jesus commanded -- That is the whole subject of this thread of over 32 thousand hits. A verse that fits them a whole lot better is Jesus harch words in Matt 23:15 'Ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" Edgar
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Jan 24, 2014 16:17:15 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Jan 24, 2014 16:17:15 GMT -5
than -- How complicated can you make it -- to avoid the clear instructions of Jesus at the end of his time on the earth, when he asked his diciples to ' go to all the world' to share the beautiful gospel that Jesus had given them? You have to be 2x2 indoctrinated to understand this to mean -- " Go to the geografical area that organizational leaders have divided up in pieces and decided you should go" It complicated when we don't fully understand Jesus own instruction! we get into a lot trouble and misunderstanding. There was a time Paul wanted to go to Asia minor/Turkey today but the Spirit said NO! there was someone/Jailer needed to get SAVED. Paul obeyed and the Jailer and his household got saved.
Jesus KNOWS what he is doing. When I was in the work, the overseer assigned me with certain companion and in certain field for the year. However, the Spirit moved me to different fields, states and be with different companions for 5 different yrs. The fields God sent or moved to had problems, special needs, one of the workers didn't have a companion for almost two years. My point is.... the overseer makes the workers list but God is still in control and He's moving workers, where the needs are needed during the year. Trust in the Lord! He appointed or allowed certain overseers to be there for a reason! We grow from both, the good and bad overseers oversight. I want to start in the work in Washington State under Tharold in 1984 but God sent me down to Oregon/started there in 1986. So, when I became a worker, I learned NOT to follow Tharold's example style of ministry, harsh, abrasive, unapproachable but more like Howard M. style in his younger years full of companion, kind, considerate, and care for people feelings. It complicated when we don't fully understand Jesus own instruction! we get into a lot trouble and misunderstanding.Do you think that YOU fully understand Jesus own instruction!? Is your thoughts and understanding superior to my thoughts and understanding? If so, why do you feel that way?
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Jan 24, 2014 16:25:16 GMT -5
Post by StAnne on Jan 24, 2014 16:25:16 GMT -5
Chi MT,
May I ask, how many people in your family are still in the fellowship? and who have joined with the golden friends? Thanks. I wish the Canadian workers had not interfered with how Chau and Hoa method of seeking the lost souls, in VN. ... Also, the passages where apostles give certain ones to look after certain area.? The 'elders' are bishops. The Apostles were bishops who ordained bishops over local churches - as we read of St Paul ordaining Timothy (Bishop of Ephesus). Bishops of local churches .... Paul's Greeting to Titus (2 Corinthians 8:16-24)
Appointment of Elders on Crete
5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; biblehub.com/titus/1-7.htm
bishop - 1985 [e] episkopon biblehub.com/text/titus/1-7.htm
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Jan 24, 2014 16:37:27 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 16:37:27 GMT -5
Hoa should have obeyed his overseer's guidance and trust in the Spirit. Chau is doing the right thing,....... Nathan I find your suggestion very very offensive. Implying that Hoa would be doing better off doing as Chau, who apparently has been working more as a baby sitter in Cambodia, than the wonderful work of the gospel that Hoa is now doing in Vietnam, in his simple, humble, unassuming and Christlike manner. This is clear insult to Hoa and his work and the folks that support him. How have you understood that it is better to follow the leadings of ungodly men, than to follow the leadings of the spirit of God to ones heart? That mindset says alot about the doctrine of 2x2ism!
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Jan 24, 2014 16:38:43 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 24, 2014 16:38:43 GMT -5
Uncle Hoa has been called to work among the Vietnamese people. Should he obey the control freak overseers, or obey the leading of the Spirit? Hoa should have obeyed his overseer's guidance and trust in the Spirit. Just like when Chau and Hoa were in charge of the work in VN, they want the workers under their cares to trust in their guidance for them. Chau is doing the right thing, keeping the right spirit of the Lamb by TRUSTING in God, who is the Overseer of overseers. If God wants Chau to STAY in VN man, even Dale and all his Canadian staff can't stop God.
Can you imagine the 12 and 70 apostles, Paul/Barnabas disobeyed Jesus instruction by doing or preaching wherever they like. What do you think Jesus would do with them? should he let them do whatever they want, like or should he replace them with someone who obey his instruction? Chau and Hoa were in charge of the work in Vietnam. Are you saying that Chau and Hoa are no longer the rightful overseers of the work in Vietnam? That God appointed Canadians on a teacher's visa to rule over them?
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Jan 24, 2014 16:41:47 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Jan 24, 2014 16:41:47 GMT -5
Nathan I think you understand as well as I do, that 2x2ism DOES NOT DO as Jesus commanded -- That is the whole subject of this thread of over 32 thousand hits. A verse that fits them a whole lot better is Jesus harch words in Matt 23:15 'Ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" Just a few rotten apples/workers among us that ruin the whole barrel. I have met Many of the workers and friends are outstanding people and citizens when I was in the work.You are right in a couple of ways. First, Just a few rotten apples/workers among us that ruin the whole barrel.And.... Many of the workers and friends are outstanding people and citizens The problem with the first statement, in perspective to the second, is that those rotten apples are not removed. That is why the senior workers are no longer trusted to care for the church. When a rotten apple (worker) is removed from the one barrel (field), and simply moved to another barrel (field/country) then that is another barrel that becomes ruined. And that is one of the reasons the fellowship is in such decline, and why so many people either simply leave, or else stay and totally disregard the senior workers.
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Jan 24, 2014 16:51:03 GMT -5
Post by StAnne on Jan 24, 2014 16:51:03 GMT -5
~~~ Thanks, Stanne... for the verses! yw!
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Jan 24, 2014 17:32:43 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 24, 2014 17:32:43 GMT -5
First, Just a few rotten apples/workers among us that ruin the whole barrel.And.... Many of the workers and friends are outstanding people and citizens The problem with the first statement, in perspective to the second, is that those rotten apples are not removed. That is why the senior workers are no longer trusted to care for the church. When a rotten apple (worker) is removed from the one barrel (field), and simply moved to another barrel (field/country) then that is another barrel that becomes ruined. And that is one of the reasons the fellowship is in such decline, and why so many people either simply leave, or else stay and totally disregard the senior workers. I'm inclined to blame the system, more than "a few bad apples". As Edgar says, Dale Shultz and the other Canadians were good men when they were younger workers. If they are "bad apples" now, its the system that has made them bad. Hoa has seen six new folks make their choice in the last three months. Here's what can be achieved when the man-made system is not quenching the Spirit: He told us many stories through his journey, how people were thirsty to hear the Gospel, how new friends gave their prayer, very simple but deeply touched his heart.
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Jan 24, 2014 17:50:41 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Jan 24, 2014 17:50:41 GMT -5
It complicated when we don't fully understand Jesus own instruction! we get into a lot trouble and misunderstanding.Do you think that YOU fully understand Jesus own instruction!? Is your thoughts and understanding superior to my thoughts and understanding? If so, why do you feel that way? You asked me the questions... I answered and explained with scriptures of how it revealed to me... It is up to you to believe it or not.Thank you Nathan. As you know, we are all led by our personal convictions. These personal convictions are not always the same, so I am glad you can point out that this is simply what those scriptures mean to you, but not necessarily true for others.
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Jan 24, 2014 19:06:07 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 24, 2014 19:06:07 GMT -5
Chi MT,
May I ask, how many people in your family are still in the fellowship? and who have joined with the golden friends? Thanks. I wish the Canadian workers had not interfered with how Chau and Hoa method of seeking the lost souls, in VN. It was working beautifully when they were in charge of the work in VN. They go every where looking, finding the lost souls. The Canadian workers CAN'T walk freely without been watched by the gov't. They should have come to VN as helpers NOT to take over the work there. Their western method of preaching and the style of working is NOT working in VN. They're trying to keep the sheep together/pastoring.... They should have left Chau and Hoa alone! as overseers, this way to allow them to travel as freely throughout the country seeking the lost souls wherever they maybe found in VN. Under the Canadian oversight they had to fit in to their plans and it hinders and restricted Chau and Hoa movement. The foreigners/Canadian workers can't move around VN freely, seeking lost souls like Chau and Hoa had done.
NOT every worker can be like Chau and Hoa, running around all over the country seek the lost sheep. It's scripture to divide fields, or given workers certain area to look after. Jesus did it and the apostles give certain ones to look after certain area. Doing what Chau and Hoa did can burn out a person real quick, because of the hardships they endured for many years they have no problem at all.
I had answer this question to Cherrie, now I post here for you too. I have 3 brothers and 3 sisters. 7 of us all profess. Two passing away long time ago. Both of them very close to me among my brothers and sisters. (We are three in the midle haven’t any special position
Four other have a special places as...
- The oldest son (Nguyễn Hữu Phi Hùng) has very special position in the family. - The oldest daughter (Nguyễn Thị Minh Tâm) still have fellowship with them but not agree with some workers behavior. - I’m in the midle. Nguyễn Thị Minh Thanh
- The next in the midle is Nguyễn Thị Minh Sương, she passed away on April 1970.
- The next in the midle is Nguyễn Hữu Phi Long, he passed away on April 1976.
- The youngest daughter is Nguyễn Thị Minh Vân. She is a great help to Darrel. - The youngest son Nguyễn Hữu Đức passed away in August 2012. He divorced, and remarried, not continued in the way. The position among the children also printed in their wedding card, for people know too. The special place also have special love from parents... (Not only in my parents family but also happen the same in the family with many children). I live near my older sister Minh Tâm, she live next door to my parents. We all communicate within the family only, with love and care. My older sister who live near my house still keep good in her spirit with us. My parents & my family have left their fellowship, kept what God had revealed and taught in the Bible. - My oldest brother live in USA, of course they still in their fellowship. - My oldest sister is still in their fellowship, but completely does not agree with their wrong actions. She said there are still remaining many good F&W. She shows her appriciate to our local workers. (May be one day I will tell you more about my oldest sister and her husband). - My youngest sister family completely in Darrel's side. (I shouldn't explain the reason why, I don't want to be judged.) In Darre's field, he came to stay with them very often, but when their son made some trouble, they invited uncle Chau coming given the advice (While uncle was not in the list of worker staff).
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Jan 24, 2014 19:28:16 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 24, 2014 19:28:16 GMT -5
MT – Did your siblings and parents usually get together for a special meal on this Special Day--23rd January that is also 23rd in the last month of Lunar Year?No, as I had said. We never had a family gathering for that day. We always have a family gathering at the end of the year, after all the members stop working at their office... (chosing a convenient day for all). Yesterday, my father had joke with my older sister that "Today people celebrate with their kitchen god, both of you (His two daughters) celebrate with your... highest respect workers". I fell it was a special day, because at last I have had my local worker too (Uncle Hoa) by God's will, without any arrangement by man .
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Jan 24, 2014 19:46:40 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 24, 2014 19:46:40 GMT -5
Chau knows he must fit in, because he is no longer in charge.
Hoa believed differently! He doesn't want to fit in under the new oversight Canadian workers. He wants to work/labor like he did before, traveling freely without answering to any man/overseer.
It right for uncle Chau, but this thought completely wrong about uncle Hoa action... I will make clear for you later.
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Jan 24, 2014 20:21:30 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 24, 2014 20:21:30 GMT -5
Uncle Hoa was fit in under the new oversight for years, went to any places they pointed for him to go. Never had any mistakes under their rule, such as step into other fields... Although both of them knowing the origin of the way many years ago. When the arrangement was still good in Viet Nam, he had completely go under their rule, till seeing what was happening with uncle Chau, then some signs that they were going to do, made him decide to leave, not cooperate with them as he used to do... Uncle Chau & Hoa all love the folk, but their practice (showing) quite different. Easy to understand with uncle Hoa work, uncle Châu action caused many misundertandings from both side !...
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Jan 24, 2014 23:29:38 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 24, 2014 23:29:38 GMT -5
Chau might not be doing much right now as a baby sitter, but his childlike spirit, the Lamb nature of Christ speaks very LOUDLY to many of the friends and workers around the world. Chau is indeed a true servant of God all around, loving, humble with a meek spirit. If I were in Hoa's position I would follow Chau's example. I know what it was like to be mistreated, treat cruely by the overseers! I had learned to wait on the Lord to open the way for me. I didn't need to force my way in the work but God opened another door for me to enter. I believe Chau feels the same way. God will be glorified through his spirit and attitudes of forgiveness toward those who treated him unkindly. Nathan, why should Uncle Hoa obey Darrel? Shouldn't Darrel obey Uncle Hoa?
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Jan 24, 2014 23:53:52 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 24, 2014 23:53:52 GMT -5
Nathan, why should Uncle Hoa obey Darrel? Shouldn't Darrel obey Uncle Hoa? #1) Nathan, why should Uncle Hoa obey Darrel? Because Darrel was uncle Hoa overseer in VN.#2) Shouldn't Darrel obey Uncle Hoa? If uncle Hoa was his overseer then Darrel should obey/listen to him. Now, Darrel has been demoted to a regular worker and if uncle Hoa were his senior companion then he must obey/listen to him.How did Darrel get to be the big boss instead of Uncle Chau and Uncle Hoa who used to be overseers of the work in Vietnam?
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Jan 25, 2014 0:15:47 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 25, 2014 0:15:47 GMT -5
#1) Nathan, why should Uncle Hoa obey Darrel? Because Darrel was uncle Hoa overseer in VN.#2) Shouldn't Darrel obey Uncle Hoa? If uncle Hoa was his overseer then Darrel should obey/listen to him. Now, Darrel has been demoted to a regular worker and if uncle Hoa were his senior companion then he must obey/listen to him.How did Darrel get to be the big boss instead of Uncle Chau and Uncle Hoa who used to be overseers of the work in Vietnam? Darrel becomes a big boss, because he has received a lot of money... The more he appears as if he does a good work in VN, the more he gets money from... their sources. We all know the power of money !... I'm sure that if he does not show an easy and confortable life, and goes abroad very often while being a worker. It will be not crowded of workers like this now a day.
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Post by Sylvestra on Jan 25, 2014 0:20:40 GMT -5
Uncle Hoa has been called to work among the Vietnamese people. Should he obey the control freak overseers, or obey the leading of the Spirit? In my opinion, Hoa should have obeyed his overseer's guidance and put his trust in the Spirit. Just like when Chau and Hoa were in charge of the work in VN, they want the workers under their cares to trust in their guidance for them. Hoa did great work when he and Chau were together. Chau is doing the right thing, keeping the right spirit of the Lamb by TRUSTING in God, who is the Overseer of overseers. If God wants Chau to STAY in VN man, even Dale and all his Canadian staff can't stop God wishes.
Can you imagine the 12 and 70 apostles, Paul/Barnabas disobeyed Jesus instruction by doing or preaching wherever they like. What do you think Jesus would do with them? should he let them do whatever they want, like or should he replace them with someone who obey his instruction?
I'd be interested in knowing WHO made anyone else overseer of Chau and Hoa? If anyone should be "overseers" it should be Chau and Hoa, with the Western workers as HELPERS OF THEM, if necessary and requested. NOT the other way around!!
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Post by findingtruth on Jan 25, 2014 0:20:58 GMT -5
Uncle Hoa has been called to work among the Vietnamese people. Should he obey the control freak overseers, or obey the leading of the Spirit? In my opinion, Hoa should have obeyed his overseer's guidance and put his trust in the Spirit. Just like when Chau and Hoa were in charge of the work in VN, they want the workers under their cares to trust in their guidance for them. Hoa did great work when he and Chau were together. Chau is doing the right thing, keeping the right spirit of the Lamb by TRUSTING in God, who is the Overseer of overseers. If God wants Chau to STAY in VN man, even Dale and all his Canadian staff can't stop God wishes.
Can you imagine the 12 and 70 apostles, Paul/Barnabas disobeyed Jesus instruction by doing or preaching wherever they like. What do you think Jesus would do with them? should he let them do whatever they want, like or should he replace them with someone who obey his instruction?
Nathan, anyone carrying the message of Christ and guided by the SPIRIT Christ spoke about should be guided ONLY by the spirit - NOT by man. Your post is attempting to make the overseers and the spirit equal - this is NOT the case. It is this foolish attempt by religious leaders (and in this case I am referring to overseers) to undermine the leading of the spirit that has corrupted the system you seem to value so highly. Why don't you lay aside everything you've been taught in a system that has become so deceptive and HONESTLY read the words of Jesus without adding your own twist (or the 2x2 twist) to His words! You might be surprised at the simple message He actually left for those who were willing to accept it.
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Jan 25, 2014 0:51:11 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 0:51:11 GMT -5
At some point somewhere, Hoa and Chau must have willingly accepted that the Canadians were their new overseers. That part of the story hasn't been told yet.
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Post by fixit on Jan 25, 2014 1:37:53 GMT -5
At some point somewhere, Hoa and Chau must have willingly accepted that the Canadians were their new overseers. That part of the story hasn't been told yet. Chau and Hoa should KNOW the answer to that question because they were willing to fit in with the Canadians oversight under different Canadian overseers... Jim Chaffee, Morris G. Darrel T. and Lyle/Dale S.An idiom comes to mind: "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile".
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Jan 25, 2014 1:39:05 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 25, 2014 1:39:05 GMT -5
How did Darrel get to be the big boss instead of Uncle Chau and Uncle Hoa who used to be overseers of the work in Vietnam? The Canadian workers have been involved with the work in VN since 1990s.... They felt they should be in charge when VN opened up to foreigners. I believe Darrel was chosen as VN overseer by his Senior Canadian workers such as Dale S. and Lyle S. and Keith Olson perhaps others also... These Canadian workers have the friends trust funds= MONEY... and Connection/support around the world to back up their decision.That doesn't look like God had much to do with it.
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Jan 25, 2014 2:21:46 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 2:21:46 GMT -5
At some point somewhere, Hoa and Chau must have willingly accepted that the Canadians were their new overseers. That part of the story hasn't been told yet. Chau and Hoa should KNOW the answer to that question because they were willing to fit in with the Canadians oversight under different Canadian overseers... Jim Chaffee, Morris G. Darrel T. and Lyle/Dale S.What was it that made them willing to submit in the early return of the foreigners?
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Jan 25, 2014 4:32:43 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 25, 2014 4:32:43 GMT -5
Rather amazing thought process to sent Chau away while they 'try' to sort the mess out. Feel for all those affected by what has taken place. Yes, the though processes of system-minded man-led people sure are amazing.
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Jan 25, 2014 6:21:56 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Jan 25, 2014 6:21:56 GMT -5
The Canadian workers have been involved with the work in VN since 1990s.... They felt they should be in charge when VN opened up to foreigners. I believe Darrel was chosen as VN overseer by his Senior Canadian workers such as Dale S. and Lyle S. and Keith Olson perhaps others also... These Canadian workers have the friends trust funds= MONEY... and Connection/support around the world to back up their decision. That doesn't look like God had much to do with it. ...but the love of money and popularity had everything to do with it.
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Jan 25, 2014 7:33:37 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 7:33:37 GMT -5
Can someone please help here ....... When Chau came to South Australia last year to be a companion in a mission, was he still classed to be in the Work as far as the VN people and workers in VN were concerned? The 'picture' we seem to have is that he was put out of the Work in VN so was sent down to South Australia to preach. Is this right, because to us a person is either IN or OUT of the Work. Cant be out of the Work in VN but allowed in the Work in SA? We heard him at convention and he seemed to be well liked. I know of some cases where a worker was dismissed by one overseer but taken on by another overseer. In fact that happened to one of the Canadian workers in VN who had been dismissed by Willis Propp, out for awhile, then taken back in by Dale Schultz.
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Jan 25, 2014 10:20:59 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 25, 2014 10:20:59 GMT -5
How did Darrel get to be the big boss instead of Uncle Chau and Uncle Hoa who used to be overseers of the work in Vietnam? Darrel becomes a big boss, because he has received a lot of money... The more he appears as if he does a good work in VN, the more he gets money from... their sources. We all know the power of money !... I'm sure that if he does not show an easy and confortable life, and goes abroad very often while being a worker. It will be not crowded of workers like this now a day. Thank you Minhthanh! I've said almost all right along that the problem with the Canadian overseers(workers) was the "Love of money...it is the root of ALL evil."Now we see really what the whole Alberta mess was brought about....there were some gas or oil well rights and perhaps agood wage fromt hem that created a "love of money" within the overseership during that time and a headiness because of this love of money that ruined lives coming and going. And presently we're seeing it again...why and where is this money coming from? Who is manipulating who to give more and more money to the workers? The friends are. Maybe not all friends are because they can ill afford even paying their tithes to the worekrs...not that the workers have ever mentioned tithing! Or at least in my hearing! I have noticed friends here and there who are very well off with money....truly some of them work hard to get that money or possessions bought with their money, but again their treasures are money based! There are more and more friends who are becoming money-minded folks...and they give freely of their success tot he workers....they don't seem selfish with their largess but they are very bent on keeping more and more money coming in...they are not shy about buying things for themselves or the workers that just appear to their mind...they don't have to back up and figure out which child's dental appointments are going to be cancelled so they can afford something! This free money has spoiled the 2x2 fellowship...and yes, not everywhere, but most everywhere...and the friends have spoiled and taught the workers how to "love money" and how to get more money...so here we're shown just exactly what that "love of money has done" to the workers sent to VN! And I strongly suspect that the folks in VN that have more money or possessions are the friends that the workers cater to....I would hope I'm wrong...but then it just happens even IF I am wrong.
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