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Post by What Hat on Jul 21, 2015 20:37:06 GMT -5
Good discussion WH and Snow. What are your thoughts on removing children where genital mutilation has occurred or is in danger of occurring? I'm not knowledgeable about the issue as it might occur in Canada. What are your thoughts? Later edit - FGM is illegal in Canada. Physicians have a 'duty to report' to the authorities if they encounter it. THere have been incidents in Canada in the Somali and Nigerian community. Government task forces have investigated the problem in these communities. Parents who engage in FGM or allow or cause FGM by others can be charged with aggravated assault and face up to 14 years in jail. All that being said I would think it difficult to pre-empt its occurrence if parents are hide bound to have it happen. Prison terms should be an effective deterrent, I would think, but I don't believe there have been any convictions in our country.
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2015 20:55:38 GMT -5
The problem is these things have to be checked out. If allegations are made and it's not just religious groups that have had this happen. A couple down in the states had their children removed from their home because they allowed the kids to walk somewhere alone. They are really getting pretty rigid about this and other parents are reporting parents that do let their children have some independence. Helicopter parenting I believe it's called. They call them Helicopter parents because they tend to get over involved with their kids in all aspects of their lives, hovering overhead I believe one definition stated. So we are going to see more and more of this likely in society in general. The FLDS seizure was because they felt the children were in danger and it did turn out that some men went to prison, so it's a tough call. I think the mindset has been if there are allegations made, remove the children until you can investigate. I don't think it's the greatest way of doing it, but possibly the least dangerous. It can be traumat[ic for the child though, especially if there was nothing happening and it was done by a 3rd party in spite. I guess bottom line for me is protection of children before worrying about religious freedom. The religion if it's worth anything will survive, but if kids are being abused, you sometimes have only a small window of opportunity to get them out and to safety. Why did they need to take out 450 children in order to obtain convictions against these men? I don't really see the connection. Here is another raid on 'Twelve Tribes' that took place in France.
Raid on the Twelve Tribes community in France
In the beginning of the year 2014 an apostate raised charges against the community because his wife did not want to leave the community together with him and also did not want to have contact with him anymore. Out of revenge he swore to destroy the community and spread horror stories. The prosecution was ordered to investigate the allegations and after a year of investigations the well prepared massive action took place in the early morning hours of 16 June 2015.
At 3 o’clock in the morning 200 policemen in about 60 vehicles stormed the property with the necessary “court decisions” for a thorough search and the seizure of all children under 15 years old. The communal gathering hall was transformed to a temporary investigation office.
Tabitha'sPlace
All buildings were surrounded, the present persons were woken up and had to stay in their living quarters. All rooms were searched for money and other interesting items concerning the allegations:
violence against minors child labor psychological pressure – “brain washing” tax fraud money laundering fraud
Ten adults (6 men and 4 women) were taken into custody: the alleged responsible persons, the heads of the company and the book keepers and one couple with four children where they assumed problems.
Judges, prosecutors and criminal police were there and took pictures, filmed and searched everything. Medical officers examined all 52 children and no signs of abuse were found. On the four children of the family which was taken into custody supposedly signs of physical discipline were found and the children were placed temporarily into an institution. None of the other children were taken because there were no signs of violence against the children. Some older children were still questioned single but could only tell wonderful stories about their families and their life in the community.
The ten persons that were brought to the police and questioned for investigation purposes were released the same day. Yesterday, which is only two weeks later, a hearing was held for the parents of those four children, as is customary for emergency proceedings when children are involved. At the hearing, French social services recommended that all four children be returned home to their parents in the community at Tabitha’s Place. The judge immediately released the children to go home to their parents.
At the raid when the 4 children were taken, 48 other children from numerous families were examined by doctors, and NO signs of abuse were found at all. To their credit, French officials conducted the examinations in the parents’ living quarters so as not to traumatize the children!
The social workers of the German Jugendamt liked to talk to the judge during the current hearings about this event in France because they thought that it aided in confirming their attitude towards the community. Truth of the matter is that this raid aided in making the point that we are trying to make and that we claim that the Jugendamt did not proceed legally on 5. September 2013. It becomes more and more clear that this raid was initiated based on media pressure and that it was done without any legal foundation. The French officials were so much more professional in what they did…
This is from the 'Twelve Tribes' web site and may be a prejudicial account. I don't really know what information social services had, nor what went on there. However, I tend to believe 'Twelve Tribes' story and think social services just gets a bit too jumpy at times. And other times, when they have to deal with drug addicts, criminals and hostile parties, they do nothing ... and kids die. I know that sounds harsh, and I also think that the individuals in social services are committed, caring and doing their best. But their mindset is an issue. They have strange ideas about cults and religious groups, and they also often have enormous case loads, are stressed out, and cases fall through the cracks and children die. There are mitigating circumstances for the errors they make. I think part of the knee jerk reactions in the case of children in cults is what has happened in the past. Jim Jones, Jonestown shocked a lot of people and those kinds of things don't get forgotten quickly. The pictures of children being made to drink the koolaide and then pictures of their dead bodies hit the media and really shook a lot of people. I did a paper in university on cults and specifically Jonestown because it had just happened a short time before I wrote it. So anyone who remembers this will likely have an emotional and possibly exaggerated response to groups labelled as cults today. That's possibly an explanation for the reactions towards these groups? I don't think it was necessary to take all the FLDS children but hindsight is always easier to judge a situation from. I imagine they felt they were protecting the children until they knew the extent of the abuse. However, it seems to be the way they do things and not just when dealing with religious groups. I knew a couple that had their two children taken for 6 months because the paternal grandmother reported them as abusing the children. It turned out she just didn't like the way they were raising the kids and reported them. They had placed the kids with her, so the motivation was certainly there. It's not the best way of doing things, but I think they feel they would rather make sure the kids are safe rather than sorry.
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2015 21:00:46 GMT -5
Good discussion WH and Snow. What are your thoughts on removing children where genital mutilation has occurred or is in danger of occurring? My thoughts are once the deed has been done removing the children is just causing further trauma. I believe it's illegal here, Canada, but I don't know much about it. I just read Whathat's post about it for Canada so hopefully imprisonment would be a deterrent. Once it is done though it can't be reversed, so removing the children from an otherwise loving home is probably not the answer. What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by fixit on Jul 21, 2015 22:15:18 GMT -5
Good discussion WH and Snow. What are your thoughts on removing children where genital mutilation has occurred or is in danger of occurring? My thoughts are once the deed has been done removing the children is just causing further trauma. I believe it's illegal here, Canada, but I don't know much about it. I just read Whathat's post about it for Canada so hopefully imprisonment would be a deterrent. Once it is done though it can't be reversed, so removing the children from an otherwise loving home is probably not the answer. What are your thoughts on this? My thoughts are that it's far worse than spanking a child so if you're going to remove kids from spanking parents why not remove kids from parents who have their children sexually mutilated? Having said that, I don't have any bright ideas for legislation and enforcement around this issue.
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2015 22:27:10 GMT -5
My thoughts are once the deed has been done removing the children is just causing further trauma. I believe it's illegal here, Canada, but I don't know much about it. I just read Whathat's post about it for Canada so hopefully imprisonment would be a deterrent. Once it is done though it can't be reversed, so removing the children from an otherwise loving home is probably not the answer. What are your thoughts on this? My thoughts are that it's far worse than spanking a child so if you're going to remove kids from spanking parents why not remove kids from parents who have their children sexually mutilated? Having said that, I don't have any bright ideas for legislation and enforcement around this issue. I guess the difference as I see it is that parents who beat their children can continue to do so. Parents that have done genital mutilation are not going to repeat the abuse because it's already been done. If they have other children of course that are at risk that is another matter. Possibly it is in their best interest to be removed. Once the child has had this happen to them though, it would just add to the trauma if they were removed. I would imagine that most of the homes where this has been done has been done for religious reasons and not to harm their children and in every other way could be seen as responsible, loving caring parents. Religious beliefs blind people to the harm and they actually do think they are doing what is best for their child for their spiritual good. I see teaching children that there is a God that can send them to hell as abusive teaching, but I'm sure you would disagree with me that it is and would be quite upset if I came and removed your child from your home for teaching them this because you would argue that you were just doing it for their spiritual well being. So looking at it from that point of view, we can't say that the parents are irresponsible or even unloving especially if they truly believe it will be in their children's best spiritual interests. It is pretty much impossible to get people to see these things as wrong or abusive when they have been raised to believe it's what God wants. I don't believe children can be removed for a 'spanking' that is within acceptable limits. Also, even in the western Christian world we have practices that should never be done without consent of the female. But most women are never even told about the 'husband stitch'. After childbirth when a woman tears and has to be sown up, there is an extra stitch added to make the vagina tighter for the husband's pleasure. Most women don't even know this happens. It can be the reason for quite painful intercourse after childbirth. So when it comes to things we shouldn't be doing there are plenty of them. www.mamabirth.com/2013/07/the-husband-stitch.html
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Post by fixit on Jul 21, 2015 23:10:21 GMT -5
My thoughts are that it's far worse than spanking a child so if you're going to remove kids from spanking parents why not remove kids from parents who have their children sexually mutilated? Having said that, I don't have any bright ideas for legislation and enforcement around this issue. I guess the difference as I see it is that parents who beat their children can continue to do so. Parents that have done genital mutilation are not going to repeat the abuse because it's already been done. If they have other children of course that are at risk that is another matter. Possibly it is in their best interest to be removed. Once the child has had this happen to them though, it would just add to the trauma if they were removed. I would imagine that most of the homes where this has been done has been done for religious reasons and not to harm their children and in every other way could be seen as responsible, loving caring parents. Religious beliefs blind people to the harm and they actually do think they are doing what is best for their child for their spiritual good. I see teaching children that there is a God that can send them to hell as abusive teaching, but I'm sure you would disagree with me that it is and would be quite upset if I came and removed your child from your home for teaching them this because you would argue that you were just doing it for their spiritual well being. So looking at it from that point of view, we can't say that the parents are irresponsible or even unloving especially if they truly believe it will be in their children's best spiritual interests. It is pretty much impossible to get people to see these things as wrong or abusive when they have been raised to believe it's what God wants. If parents beat their children for religious reasons and have them taken away, perhaps those who allow their child to be sexually mutilated should have any non-mutilated children taken out of their care.
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2015 23:19:31 GMT -5
I guess the difference as I see it is that parents who beat their children can continue to do so. Parents that have done genital mutilation are not going to repeat the abuse because it's already been done. If they have other children of course that are at risk that is another matter. Possibly it is in their best interest to be removed. Once the child has had this happen to them though, it would just add to the trauma if they were removed. I would imagine that most of the homes where this has been done has been done for religious reasons and not to harm their children and in every other way could be seen as responsible, loving caring parents. Religious beliefs blind people to the harm and they actually do think they are doing what is best for their child for their spiritual good. I see teaching children that there is a God that can send them to hell as abusive teaching, but I'm sure you would disagree with me that it is and would be quite upset if I came and removed your child from your home for teaching them this because you would argue that you were just doing it for their spiritual well being. So looking at it from that point of view, we can't say that the parents are irresponsible or even unloving especially if they truly believe it will be in their children's best spiritual interests. It is pretty much impossible to get people to see these things as wrong or abusive when they have been raised to believe it's what God wants. If parents beat their children for religious reasons and have them taken away, perhaps those who allow their child to be sexually mutilated should have any non-mutilated children taken out of their care. Yes possibly that would be an acceptable solution.
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Post by Mary on Jul 22, 2015 14:48:45 GMT -5
If they have done FGM to their daughter do you not think the parents are putting their own beliefs before that of the child's? Leaving the child there is saying to the child that what happened to you was alright. To me doing fgm is just the start and a warning the child is not safe. Those cultures often have more than just one child. I think education and other means might be helpful in trying to challenge the thinking around fgm. It has likely been a practice without being challenged.
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Post by snow on Jul 22, 2015 17:16:53 GMT -5
If they have done FGM to their daughter do you not think the parents are putting their own beliefs before that of the child's? Leaving the child there is saying to the child that what happened to you was alright. To me doing fgm is just the start and a warning the child is not safe. Those cultures often have more than just one child. I think education and other means might be helpful in trying to challenge the thinking around fgm. It has likely been a practice without being challenged. Most religions do put their beliefs before their children. I do agree with you though that something should be done about it and education could be the key. There are lots of things that people of religion believe and teach their children to believe that make non believers cringe. But people tend to do what they are taught to do by their parents so if you can educate the parent you might break the cycle?
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Post by What Hat on Jul 23, 2015 9:56:19 GMT -5
If they have done FGM to their daughter do you not think the parents are putting their own beliefs before that of the child's? Leaving the child there is saying to the child that what happened to you was alright. To me doing fgm is just the start and a warning the child is not safe. Those cultures often have more than just one child. I think education and other means might be helpful in trying to challenge the thinking around fgm. It has likely been a practice without being challenged. It's illegal so none of that matters. In Canada it is aggravated assault and you can spend up to 14 years in jail. That's where the education should begin.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 31, 2016 15:24:27 GMT -5
Orders for Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement continue to roll in with one from Tennessee and one from Oregon a few days ago. The Real Life bookshop in Ennniskillen, Co Fermanagh has sold over 80 and placed an order for a further supply. Co Fermanagh was very active in the early days of the movement and I think it would be a case that there are still more 2x2s per capita in Fermanagh than anywhere else. www.irvinegrey.com
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Post by irvinegrey on Feb 7, 2016 12:16:46 GMT -5
Orders for Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement continue to roll in with one from Tennessee and one from Oregon a few days ago. The Real Life bookshop in Ennniskillen, Co Fermanagh has sold over 80 and placed an order for a further supply. Co Fermanagh was very active in the early days of the movement and I think it would be a case that there are still more 2x2s per capita in Fermanagh than anywhere else. www.irvinegrey.comYes - my wife's grandfather (Dick McClure)went into the work in 1902 and came out to Australia with John Hardie in 1907. We visited with a few of the professing relatives around your area in 2010 - if I had of known of you then we definitely would have stopped by! In the words of the song, 'if you ever sail across the sea to Ireland' again it would be good to show you or indeed any others from the TMB a bit of Irish hospitality.
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Post by irvinegrey on Feb 10, 2016 14:00:00 GMT -5
It has been a good week for direct orders for Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement - 3 to the USA and 3 in Ireland.
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Post by slowtosee on Feb 10, 2016 15:26:31 GMT -5
Are you sharing news of a good business venture at 6 book sales a week or what are you saying ? Alvin
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 11, 2016 0:51:22 GMT -5
Are you sharing news of a good business venture at 6 book sales a week or what are you saying ? Alvin He's just boasting, I rather think.
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Post by slowtosee on Feb 11, 2016 10:50:42 GMT -5
Not sure. See what irvine's reply is. Alvin
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Post by irvinegrey on Feb 11, 2016 17:23:51 GMT -5
Are you sharing news of a good business venture at 6 book sales a week or what are you saying ? Alvin He's just boasting, I rather think.There are less than 200 left from the initial print run of 1500 and significant numbers have gone to the US, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. I am considering a reprint that will include extracts of emails that I have received from those who have suffered serious levels of mental abuse, some victims of child sex abuse and others serious ostracization
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 11, 2016 22:02:57 GMT -5
Irvine, don't answer if you don't want to, but as a fellow author who has not yet gone to print, I have to ask if you broke even, made a profit or went in the hole?
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Post by irvinegrey on Feb 12, 2016 14:48:55 GMT -5
Irvine, don't answer if you don't want to, but as a fellow author who has not yet gone to print, I have to ask if you broke even, made a profit or went in the hole? To be honest I don't really know. I self-published and produced a good quality book and think I just about broke even. Initial print run of 1500 and less than 200 left.
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Post by magpie on Feb 21, 2016 23:54:26 GMT -5
WONDER WHAT THOSE WHO COMMENTED IN FAVOUR OF 2x2s IRVINE DOCTRINE WOULD WRITE TODAY? ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 22, 2016 0:31:23 GMT -5
Irvine, don't answer if you don't want to, but as a fellow author who has not yet gone to print, I have to ask if you broke even, made a profit or went in the hole? To be honest I don't really know. I self-published and produced a good quality book and think I just about broke even. Initial print run of 1500 and less than 200 left. OMG! "Self-published?" And here I had thought all along that it was published by Queen’s University!
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Post by blandie on Feb 22, 2016 17:57:08 GMT -5
Maybe you'd mixed it as being published by Queens with that the material in the book was vetted by Queens in fulfillment of a master's of philosophy degree? Few universities directly publish books and either they have side businesses doing that or academic work gets published in some other way. Most do publish or allow access to theses from their graduate students through their own libraries or online or through interlibrary access and I recall reading that theses from Queens can be got thru any library that is linked to the British Library if anyone wants to read the thesis itself. Easy enough mistake to make and I don't recall anyone here saying that it was a Queens U. publication.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 23, 2016 3:06:06 GMT -5
Maybe you'd mixed it as being published by Queens with that the material in the book was vetted by Queens in fulfillment of a master's of philosophy degree? Few universities directly publish books and either they have side businesses doing that or academic work gets published in some other way. Most do publish or allow access to theses from their graduate students through their own libraries or online or through interlibrary access and I recall reading that theses from Queens can be got thru any library that is linked to the British Library if anyone wants to read the thesis itself. Easy enough mistake to make and I don't recall anyone here saying that it was a Queens U. publication. Perhaps so.
I don't know about other countries but I sell a lot of books on Amazon and I have many that go through my hands that name the publisher as a university e.g, - University of Chicago and other universities around the US.
About a thesis, -I was amazed quite a long time ago when some young college student had written a thesis about the 2x2's. He wasn't a member but I think that he knew of it through a family member.
I had ask my library if they could get it for me & what amazed me was that I was sent the original copy that he himself had typed!
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Post by blandie on Feb 23, 2016 4:27:18 GMT -5
Yeah the publishers with university in their name today are separate businesses tho - like u. of california press or columbia u. press or oxford press - and its not the uni itself doing the publishing and marketing but a separately incorporated business thats often a nonprofit with an educational purpose in their corporate charter and some with management appointed by the uni top brass who sit on their boards of directors even tho run as separate enterprises. The uni presses don't publish theses as a general rule tho - no money in it. Its been a long time since uni presses were just a little building tucked away next to the steam plant which turned out curriculum schedules and brochures and refectory menus along with the occasional textbook or academic tome. What I recall from even a half century ago was that things like bookbinding had long been moved from the printing plants to library sciences and the book publishing functions had been spun off. That is an amazing thing to receive an original thesis in reply to your library request - maybe they'd already committed it to microfiche and no longer needed it but is still interesting to get hold of the typed piece. Do you remember the title?
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Post by magpie on Feb 24, 2016 23:52:58 GMT -5
JUDGEMENTAL EXCLUSIVSM MEANS IT IS A CULT. THOSE OUTSIDE OF 2x2s SECRET SECT(and other sects and cults) BARRIER ARE UNSAVED,HEADING TO A LOST ETERNITY?? Hitler killed the physical lives,condemning people to a lost eternity is that you must believe in the loss of spiritual souls. That is a sin of "ALL" of the only way sects and cults.If you believe otherwise,you should not be amongst the mind controllers.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 25, 2016 2:00:01 GMT -5
Yeah the publishers with university in their name today are separate businesses tho - like u. of california press or columbia u. press or oxford press - and its not the uni itself doing the publishing and marketing but a separately incorporated business thats often a nonprofit with an educational purpose in their corporate charter and some with management appointed by the uni top brass who sit on their boards of directors even tho run as separate enterprises. The uni presses don't publish theses as a general rule tho - no money in it. Its been a long time since uni presses were just a little building tucked away next to the steam plant which turned out curriculum schedules and brochures and refectory menus along with the occasional textbook or academic tome. What I recall from even a half century ago was that things like bookbinding had long been moved from the printing plants to library sciences and the book publishing functions had been spun off. That is an amazing thing to receive an original thesis in reply to your library request - maybe they'd already committed it to microfiche and no longer needed it but is still interesting to get hold of the typed piece. Do you remember the title? I can't remember, but this sounds as if it might be the one. I use to have the whole thesis, (I photo copied it) I found this listed in the Telling The Truth site. THE INVISIBLE CHURCH KEITH W. CROW
A THESIS:
Presented to the Department of Sociology and the Graduate School of the University of Oregon
in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Master of Arts
March 1961
APPROVED
(signature)
(Adviser for the Thesis) G. Benton Johnson
VITA
Name: Keith W. Crow
Place of Birth: Yoncalla, Oregon
Date of Birth: October 11, 1927
Schools Attended:
Reed College B.A. 1953
University of Oregon M.A. 1963
Area of Special Interest: SociologyI heard later that the person had committed suicide, however that could have been rumor.
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Post by blandie on Feb 25, 2016 2:54:06 GMT -5
I can't remember, but this sounds as if it might be the one. I use to have the whole thesis, (I photo copied it) I found this listed in the Telling The Truth site. THE INVISIBLE CHURCH KEITH W. CROW
Thanks!
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Post by irvinegrey on Feb 26, 2016 17:22:35 GMT -5
I can't remember, but this sounds as if it might be the one. I use to have the whole thesis, (I photo copied it) I found this listed in the Telling The Truth site. THE INVISIBLE CHURCH KEITH W. CROW
Thanks! I have read Keith's thesis and quoted from it in my Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement
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