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Post by rational on Mar 9, 2012 9:46:03 GMT -5
Bert wrote: Expansion of term "Hirelings" - John 10:12-13 When a Shepherd cannot be with the sheep himself, he may hire someone to care for them in his place temporarily. This parable calls this person a “hireling.” A hireling is neither a stranger nor a thief. He is a legitimate care giver, and unlike the thief, may have good intentions. A hireling may take the job for any number of reasons; i.e. for self preservation, for the money, for a job, or because he has a genuine care for sheep. The true Shepherd is not a hireling. The hireling is hired to take care of the sheep and does not own them. Being human, the hireling may put his own life ahead of the sheep, since the sheep are not his sheep. If a wolf comes, the hireling may protect himself by running away. Unlike the Good Shepherd, the hireling may not be willing to endanger his life for the sake of the sheep. Self preservation usually comes first with a hireling. In this parable, the concept of a hireling was compared to Jesus as the Good Shepherd. It was used to make a sharp contrast between Jesus, the ultimate caretaker of the sheep, and mere men caretakers (vs 13). Jesus may have been making reference to the Jewish religious leaders who were appointed by the law, yet they put their own lives ahead of the welfare of the people they served. Consequently, the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" (Mark 6:34). This is somewhat contradictory. If the shepherd has indeed hired someone to do his job he has left the sheep, put his needs above the job of watching the sheep. And if the shepherd doesn't care enough to stay with the sheep can the hireling be faulted?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2012 10:16:30 GMT -5
And what about the shepherd who through no fault of his own MUST rely upon another to care for HIS sheep? (Remembering when I had a flock of sheep and was run down by an uninsured drunken driver and spending 40 days in the hospital, I HAD to rely upon "hirelings.") Another time family crisis in another part of the world required us to travel thousands of miles from our flock of sheep. For someone who gets upon others for generalizations or not addressing every minute detail, that one does much the same.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2012 10:59:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure why "hirelings" have such a bad reputation. They are what they are. They are hired to do job with no commitment on their part. They fill a useful function. Most of us are hirelings by someone, and that's actually an honourable thing.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 9, 2012 13:06:15 GMT -5
Irvinegrey ~ Great article on the characteristics found within the 2x2's ~ hard to deny them unless you prefer to live in denial completely. Dialogue Ireland didn't think much of the article. Are you suggesting their "cult" experts "live in denial completely"?
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Post by rational on Mar 9, 2012 18:07:23 GMT -5
And what about the shepherd who through no fault of his own MUST rely upon another to care for HIS sheep? (Remembering when I had a flock of sheep and was run down by an uninsured drunken driver and spending 40 days in the hospital, I HAD to rely upon "hirelings.") Another time family crisis in another part of the world required us to travel thousands of miles from our flock of sheep. For someone who gets upon others for generalizations or not addressing every minute detail, that one does much the same. I wasn't arguing reasons. If you traveled and left the sheep you were putting your needs before those of the sheep. It is not a judgement. Just a statement of fact. I was responding to a post that claimed the hireling was more likely to put their needs before the needs of the sheep. If the hireling is in place chances are that the shepherd has already put his/her needs before the needs of the sheep. Your argument seems to turn around the point that if your needs are great enough it is ok to put the flock in the care of a hireling and I did not take the severity of your needs into account. You are right. Your need to be hospitalized or someone's need to take a vacation are still the needs of the shepherd.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 9, 2012 19:46:28 GMT -5
Irvinegrey ~ Great article on the characteristics found within the 2x2's ~ hard to deny them unless you prefer to live in denial completely. Dialogue Ireland didn't think much of the article. Are you suggesting their "cult" experts "live in denial completely"? Being a moderator or having a website does not make them an expert on cults. Any one can set up a website on anything. What training in the psychological or sociological impact that cults have on individuals does the guy have.
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Post by kiwi on Mar 10, 2012 0:02:53 GMT -5
You know it is funny imelda that those who have left accuse us of being in a cult but I have never heard or seen or spoken accusing of anyone else of being in a cult whether they are or not. I don't believe as being a Christian that that is our place to do such. To me it is just plain judging people. Like the workers calling other ministers of the Gospel hirelings. What has that go to do with cults?
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Post by What Hat on Mar 10, 2012 7:33:18 GMT -5
Dialogue Ireland didn't think much of the article. Are you suggesting their "cult" experts "live in denial completely"? Being a moderator or having a website does not make them an expert on cults. Any one can set up a website on anything. What training in the psychological or sociological impact that cults have on individuals does the guy have. Yes, but my question was, "do you think they live in denial completely"? LOL. Anyway, I find their proposed definition interesting and it does have some cred in academic circles, so I've begun a new thread along that line, as opposed to the "theological" line of thinking.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 11, 2012 16:03:23 GMT -5
Like the workers calling other ministers of the Gospel hirelings. What has that go to do with cults? It has to do with "judging", Kiwi! Your own petard, eh?
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Post by kiwi on Mar 11, 2012 23:27:24 GMT -5
What has that go to do with cults? It has to do with "judging", Kiwi! Your own petard, eh? I judge you don't get a kiss
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 11:47:37 GMT -5
A very interesting comparison -- I like it!!! The enormous rutt so easy to slip into ---- 'we and them' !!! What you call an "enormous rutt" can be a necessary way of thinking sometimes and it is highly useful to police to have an ethic where they stick together and protect each other in the dangerous situations that they face daily. I love MC's description--the comfort of being inside a group with similar values and goals. The discomfort of leaving it and having to figure out what really is important to you now that you don't have group think to rely on. (No offense meant to RAM re the "cult of the blue religion") No offense CK. I have explained elsewhere on this board that I recognise the term "cult" as a description for any religious sect, group or faith, be they good, bad or indifferent. I can see an innocent side to its use. In the past I had worse names thrown at me than "cult!" One of them was quite similar, had the same number of letters and had more of a nasal sound than one of the tongue! Perhaps I fitted that description more easily than being a member of the "blue cult!" I can also remember in former times being "gay!" Back then I was lively, bright and merry. I think I am still those things, except I am no longer "gay." However, my sexual persuasion has not altered.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 12, 2012 12:06:55 GMT -5
What you call an "enormous rutt" can be a necessary way of thinking sometimes and it is highly useful to police to have an ethic where they stick together and protect each other in the dangerous situations that they face daily. I love MC's description--the comfort of being inside a group with similar values and goals. The discomfort of leaving it and having to figure out what really is important to you now that you don't have group think to rely on. (No offense meant to RAM re the "cult of the blue religion") No offense CK. I have explained elsewhere on this board that I recognise the term "cult" as a description for any religious sect, group or faith, be they good, bad or indifferent. I can see an innocent side to its use. In the past I had worse names thrown at me than "cult!" One of them was quite similar, had the same number of letters and had more of a nasal sound than one of the tongue! Perhaps I fitted that description more easily than being a member of the "blue cult!" I can also remember in former times being "gay!" Back then I was lively, bright and merry. I think I am still those things, except I am no longer "gay." However, my sexual persuasion has not altered. Is the 2x2 movement a cult? Absolutely. Is the 2x2 movement a cult? Absolutely not. It all depends on the definition applied, as RAM notes. I believe that all denominations are cults; that is to say a subsection of a "culture" that people identify themselves with. I think that this is a very good question and one that needed to be asked, thank you Irvine Grey for asking it.
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Post by irvinegrey on Mar 15, 2012 16:33:45 GMT -5
A "hireling" in the New Testament was a person "hired" or paid. Paying someone to preach the Gospel was clearly something which offended Jesus. Not all preachers are paid to preach. But those who draw wages or salary for doing so can rightly be called "hirelings." This shouldn't be an issue. 'Paying someone to preach the Gospel was clearly something that offended Jesus'. It would be good to have some evidence from Scripture for this statement.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 16, 2012 3:22:25 GMT -5
A "hireling" in the New Testament was a person "hired" or paid. Paying someone to preach the Gospel was clearly something which offended Jesus. Not all preachers are paid to preach. But those who draw wages or salary for doing so can rightly be called "hirelings." This shouldn't be an issue. 'Paying someone to preach the Gospel was clearly something that offended Jesus'. It would be good to have some evidence from Scripture for this statement. I thought a worker was worthy of his hire. You can work for me but I won't pay you, I will give you free board and keep instead. That is called going out in faith and we kind of beat the tax department that way.
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Post by irvinegrey on Mar 16, 2012 17:30:48 GMT -5
In Ireland tomorrow we celebrate St Patrick's day. In case there is any misunderstanding I want to emphasise that it was St Patrick who brought the Gospel to Ireland, not William Irvine!
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Post by rational on Mar 17, 2012 8:39:52 GMT -5
In Ireland tomorrow we celebrate St Patrick's day. In case there is any misunderstanding I want to emphasise that it was St Patrick who brought the Gospel to Ireland, not William Irvine! One of the people on the list of saints that has not been formally canonised by the RCC.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jun 22, 2013 17:28:51 GMT -5
I think if you go back through this thread it was evident that for my research I was based at the Irish Baptist College as was my supervisor but there is no reason why that would influence the impartiality of my research that was examined by those appointed by Queen's University, neither of whom were Baptist. You will also notice that I state my MA is from the University of Manchester but I do not state that my studies were carried out at the Nazarene Theological College, Manchester and Cliff College (with its Methodist connection), Derbyshire because this was not relevant.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 19:27:47 GMT -5
I think if you go back through this thread it was evident that for my research I was based at the Irish Baptist College as was my supervisor but there is no reason why that would influence the impartiality of my research that was examined by those appointed by Queen's University, neither of whom were Baptist. You will also notice that I state my MA is from the University of Manchester but I do not state that my studies were carried out at the Nazarene Theological College, Manchester and Cliff College (with its Methodist connection), Derbyshire because this was not relevant. The issue of the lack of disclosure of your connection with the Irish Baptist College was brought up to you by What Hat in December of 2011: "He is enrolled at Irish Baptist College whose programs are accredited by QUB. I have objected on this thread to Grey's lack of complete disclosure on his web page. Anyone enrolled at Irish Baptist College is also enrolled at QUB. His degree is as good academically as any issued by QUB, but I think his research subjects should know about his bias." Why didn't you correct it then? Readers need to understand where potential biases could come from.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 3:02:47 GMT -5
Readers need to understand where potential biases could come from. Clearday, it would need a whole book in itself just to explain where any of our personal biases come from ---- No one is particularly free from this --- Lets face it, religion itself is 99% bias (especially 2x2ism), and most of our religious backgrounds are somewhat complex!!! The issue is enough of a spagetti as it is without a separate documented investigation into the origin of each suspected bias. I doubt if Mr Grey is particularly unique in this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 7:44:09 GMT -5
Readers need to understand where potential biases could come from. Clearday, it would need a whole book in itself just to explain where any of our personal biases come from ---- No one is particularly free from this --- Lets face it, religion itself is 99% bias (especially 2x2ism), and most of our religious backgrounds are somewhat complex!!! The issue is enough of a spagetti as it is without a separate documented investigation into the origin of each suspected bias. I doubt if Mr Grey is particularly unique in this. Not really. If someone told me they were B&R 2x2, I would suddenly know a whole lot about them and what biases they have been subject to. It would be similar for someone who chooses to receive education from a Baptist College. The worldview would be a somewhat predictable one with a certain lens through which they look at things. Similarly for someone who studies at a Catholic seminary, a Jewish college or an Islamic mosque. They all produce certain predictable biases.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jun 23, 2013 9:27:03 GMT -5
There seems to be a complete lack of understanding between what is a taught master’s degree and a research master’s degree. A taught master’s is one where lectures are delivered by the lecturers of the institution. A research master’s is one where the student works independently under the direction of a supervisor approved by the university. My Master of Philosophy was a research degree and could have been carried out at any one of the five constituent colleges linked to Queen’s University of which the Irish Baptist College is one.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 23, 2013 9:46:40 GMT -5
Readers need to understand where potential biases could come from. Clearday, it would need a whole book in itself just to explain where any of our personal biases come from ---- No one is particularly free from this --- Lets face it, religion itself is 99% bias (especially 2x2ism), and most of our religious backgrounds are somewhat complex!!! The issue is enough of a spagetti as it is without a separate documented investigation into the origin of each suspected bias. I doubt if Mr Grey is particularly unique in this. The issue is disclosure of simple and relevant factual information. No one has asked for an exhaustive examination of all of Mr. Grey's personal biases.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 23, 2013 9:57:52 GMT -5
There seems to be a complete lack of understanding between what is a taught master’s degree and a research master’s degree. A taught master’s is one where lectures are delivered by the lecturers of the institution. A research master’s is one where the student works independently under the direction of a supervisor approved by the university. My Master of Philosophy was a research degree and could have been carried out at any one of the five constituent colleges linked to Queen’s University of which the Irish Baptist College is one. There is definitely a lack of understanding on that question and many other questions relating to the role of IBC in your education versus QUB. Answering questions is entirely at your option or discretion, but please don't complain about a "lack of understanding" here on TMB, if that is the inevitable result. It would be very helpful to now know: 1) Who was your main adviser on faculty at IBC? 2) Who were your examiners and were they on faculty at QUB, IBC or the other church colleges? Since you have made the statement that the 2x2 movement is a dangerous cult, I believe it's only fair for people to know the credentials and bias of the other individuals who approved the statement, so that they can be put to the test also in the public debate that is sure to follow.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 11:57:32 GMT -5
Yeh, let them prove their conclusion to the jury, beyond reasonable doubt.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 13:44:02 GMT -5
The issue of the lack of disclosure of your connection with the Irish Baptist College was brought up to you by What Hat in December of 2011: "He is enrolled at Irish Baptist College whose programs are accredited by QUB. I have objected on this thread to Grey's lack of complete disclosure on his web page. Anyone enrolled at Irish Baptist College is also enrolled at QUB. His degree is as good academically as any issued by QUB, but I think his research subjects should know about his bias." Why didn't you correct it then? Readers need to understand where potential biases could come from. I have a hard time understanding your suggestion that Mr Grey has somehow hidden his religious affiliations .. Here is the back cover of his book. Few 2x2ers are upfront with qualifying their opinions by saying "By the way, I belong to the 2x2 organization and fellowship of workers and friends" This information would really be helpful in identifing their bias!!! On the contrary they will very carefully hide this fact, ---- I will admit it would dramatically decrease their credibility for anyone who knows anything about them -- or has done a simple Google search!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 15:07:12 GMT -5
The issue of the lack of disclosure of your connection with the Irish Baptist College was brought up to you by What Hat in December of 2011: "He is enrolled at Irish Baptist College whose programs are accredited by QUB. I have objected on this thread to Grey's lack of complete disclosure on his web page. Anyone enrolled at Irish Baptist College is also enrolled at QUB. His degree is as good academically as any issued by QUB, but I think his research subjects should know about his bias." Why didn't you correct it then? Readers need to understand where potential biases could come from. I have a hard time understanding your suggestion that Mr Grey has somehow hidden his religious affiliations .. Here is the back cover of his book. Few 2x2ers are upfront with qualifying their opinions by saying "By the way, I belong to the 2x2 organization and fellowship of workers and friends" -- That would really be helpful in identifing their bias!!! On the contrary they will very carefully hide that fact, ---- I will admit it would dramatically decrease their credibility for anyone who knows anything about them -- or has done a simple Google search! I realize that you are having a difficult time with understanding how I couldn't find his affiliation very easily. For one thing, the book cover just became available. The other thing is that I don't normally search out 2x2 book covers for educational credits, I go to the author's introduction pages. Mr.Grey has been running around these sites for at least a couple of years under the auspices of "Queen's University", which is technically correct. Here is his Home page: IRVINE GREY B.Th., M.A.(Manc.), M.Phil.(QUB) Irvine Grey was born and brought up on a farm in Killadeas, Co Fermanagh, Northern Ireland. He holds the degrees of Bachelor of Theology from Queen’s University, Belfast and Master of Arts in Theology from the University of Manchester. NameIrvine Grey Birthday30th August, 1946 Address39 Calvertstown Road, Portadown, N.Ireland BT63 5NY Emailirvinegrey@yahoo.co.uk Phone07831 804000It even has his birth date and phone number! But no affiliation with the Irish Baptist College Ok, now here is his "About" page: About Irvine
Irvine Grey was born and brought up on a farm in Killadeas, Co Fermanagh, Northern Ireland. He holds the degrees of Bachelor of Theology from Queen’s University, Belfast and Master of Arts in Theology from the University of Manchester. In December 2012 he was awarded the degree of Master of Philosophy from Queen’s University, Belfast for his research into the 2x2 movement. His research investigated the history, sociology and theology of a religious movement that had its beginnings in Co Tipperary, Ireland in 1897. Its founding fathers were a Scotsman, William Irvine who a few years earlier had moved to Ireland as a Faith Mission evangelist and Edward Cooney a businessman from Enniskillen, County Fermanagh.Ok, now I'm just a dumb cluck. I have now read his educational credits on his Home Page. I have now read his educational credits on his About Page. See how dumb I am to be led to believe that he has had no affiliation with the Irish Baptist College? I know I know, it's all my fault for not going to the 2x2 section and start looking through a book cover to discover his affiliation with the Irish Baptist College, but hey, that's what comes with a low IQ! So yes, it is very difficult to understand why I think he purposely decided to leave his IBC affiliation out of his two self-descriptive pages, but you now understand: it is my low intelligence level.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 15:16:04 GMT -5
OK clearday, can you see my comparison with 2x2 people answering questions about their faith? ---How many 2x2ers are upfront with qualifying their opinions by saying "By the way, I belong to the 2x2 organization and fellowship of workers and friends" -- The standard assurance that they don't belong to any organization or denomination (beside being dishonest) clouds the issue considerably. I agree a statement of affiliation would really be helpful in identifing their bias!!!
On the contrary they will very carefully hide that fact, ---- I will admit a 'confession of affiliation" would dramatically decrease their credibility for anyone who knows anything about them -- or has done a simple Google search!
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Post by What Hat on Jun 24, 2013 9:34:47 GMT -5
OK clearday, can you see my comparison with 2x2 people answering questions about their faith? ---How many 2x2ers are upfront with qualifying their opinions by saying "By the way, I belong to the 2x2 organization and fellowship of workers and friends" -- The standard assurance that they don't belong to any organization or denomination (beside being dishonest) clouds the issue considerably. I agree a statement of affiliation would really be helpful in identifing their bias!!! On the contrary they will very carefully hide that fact, ---- I will admit a 'confession of affiliation" would dramatically decrease their credibility for anyone who knows anything about them -- or has done a simple Google search! Well it has been remarked by someone in his family (apparently) that Irvine Grey would have made a good worker.
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