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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2013 9:56:57 GMT -5
OK clearday, can you see my comparison with 2x2 people answering questions about their faith? ---How many 2x2ers are upfront with qualifying their opinions by saying "By the way, I belong to the 2x2 organization and fellowship of workers and friends" -- The standard assurance that they don't belong to any organization or denomination (beside being dishonest) clouds the issue considerably. I agree a statement of affiliation would really be helpful in identifing their bias!!! On the contrary they will very carefully hide that fact, ---- I will admit a 'confession of affiliation" would dramatically decrease their credibility for anyone who knows anything about them -- or has done a simple Google search! As I have mentioned recently on other posts, the fact that 2x2's conceal things does not justify Irvine Grey to conceal things. IG's purpose was to reveal the 2x2 system, but in doing so, it appears so far that he tried to conceal some things about himself and purpose. So if we are going to talk about 2x2 concealment, let's do it. If we are going to talk about IG concealment, let's do it. However, one does not cancel the other. One thing is obvious, neither party will comment about their concealment activities. I suppose that goes with the territory. Sneaky people don't comment about their sneaky activities.
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Post by Persona non grata on Jun 24, 2013 13:35:27 GMT -5
I have a hard time understanding your suggestion that Mr Grey has somehow hidden his religious affiliations .. Here is the back cover of his book. Few 2x2ers are upfront with qualifying their opinions by saying "By the way, I belong to the 2x2 organization and fellowship of workers and friends" -- That would really be helpful in identifing their bias!!! On the contrary they will very carefully hide that fact, ---- I will admit it would dramatically decrease their credibility for anyone who knows anything about them -- or has done a simple Google search! I realize that you are having a difficult time with understanding how I couldn't find his affiliation very easily. For one thing, the book cover just became available. The other thing is that I don't normally search out 2x2 book covers for educational credits, I go to the author's introduction pages. Mr.Grey has been running around these sites for at least a couple of years under the auspices of "Queen's University", which is technically correct. Here is his Home page: IRVINE GREY B.Th., M.A.(Manc.), M.Phil.(QUB) Irvine Grey was born and brought up on a farm in Killadeas, Co Fermanagh, Northern Ireland. He holds the degrees of Bachelor of Theology from Queen’s University, Belfast and Master of Arts in Theology from the University of Manchester. NameIrvine Grey Birthday30th August, 1946 Address39 Calvertstown Road, Portadown, N.Ireland BT63 5NY Emailirvinegrey@yahoo.co.uk Phone07831 804000It even has his birth date and phone number! But no affiliation with the Irish Baptist College Ok, now here is his "About" page: About Irvine
Irvine Grey was born and brought up on a farm in Killadeas, Co Fermanagh, Northern Ireland. He holds the degrees of Bachelor of Theology from Queen’s University, Belfast and Master of Arts in Theology from the University of Manchester. In December 2012 he was awarded the degree of Master of Philosophy from Queen’s University, Belfast for his research into the 2x2 movement. His research investigated the history, sociology and theology of a religious movement that had its beginnings in Co Tipperary, Ireland in 1897. Its founding fathers were a Scotsman, William Irvine who a few years earlier had moved to Ireland as a Faith Mission evangelist and Edward Cooney a businessman from Enniskillen, County Fermanagh.Ok, now I'm just a dumb cluck. I have now read his educational credits on his Home Page. I have now read his educational credits on his About Page. See how dumb I am to be led to believe that he has had no affiliation with the Irish Baptist College? I know I know, it's all my fault for not going to the 2x2 section and start looking through a book cover to discover his affiliation with the Irish Baptist College, but hey, that's what comes with a low IQ! So yes, it is very difficult to understand why I think he purposely decided to leave his IBC affiliation out of his two self-descriptive pages, but you now understand: it is my low intelligence level. Now that we know Irvine's birthday and address, we mustn't forget to send a card!
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Post by irvinegrey on May 8, 2015 5:25:16 GMT -5
Given What Hat's hysterical reaction to the simple question posed in this thread a few years ago, I guess it is predictable that he would find the title of Elizabeth Coleman's book Cult to Christ objectionable!
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 7:59:49 GMT -5
The term "cult" is used pejoratively - regardless of any "technical" definition. In another thread I demonstrated that Jesus himself was in a "cult" and indeed, some in His day called His group "the cult of the Galileans."
And if your faith is ridiculed or subverted with "cult" implications then be happy - Jesus said such reproach is a necessary part of your Christian life, just as it was for Him.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 8, 2015 8:47:28 GMT -5
Irvine Grey: Let's get to the bottom of this, are 2x2s who choose to stay in the cult condemned to hell? A simple yes or no answer will do.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 9:19:40 GMT -5
Irvine Grey: Let's get to the bottom of this, are 2x2s who choose to stay in the cult condemned to hell? A simple yes or no answer will do. Mr. Grey's impressive resume should help him answer that.
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Post by irvinegrey on May 8, 2015 10:21:01 GMT -5
Irvine Grey: Let's get to the bottom of this, are 2x2s who choose to stay in the cult condemned to hell? A simple yes or no answer will do. Anyone who refuses to repent and come to Christ alone through faith alone will never be with Christ in the new heaven and the new earth. Although I have no doubt that there are within the two by two movement genuinely born again believers I often wonder how they can stay within the movement when Scripture says, Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
(2 Corinthians 6:14-15 ESV)
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Post by matisse on May 8, 2015 10:39:27 GMT -5
Irvine Grey: Let's get to the bottom of this, are 2x2s who choose to stay in the cult condemned to hell? A simple yes or no answer will do. Anyone who refuses to repent and come to Christ alone through faith alone will never be with Christ in the new heaven and the new earth. Although I have no doubt that there are within the two by two movement genuinely born again believers I often wonder how they can stay within the movement when Scripture says, Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
(2 Corinthians 6:14-15 ESV) Thank God you are not like those other people...
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 8, 2015 10:39:38 GMT -5
Although I have no doubt that there are within the two by two movement genuinely born again believers I often wonder how they can stay within the movement when Scripture says, Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
(2 Corinthians 6:14-15 ESV) That is true for any group or "movement", and not just in a religious context. How are those who cannot be programmed with what we think the groupthink should be delt with? Are they the neighbors we call names like cult and then don't have to love like we love ourselves?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 8, 2015 10:40:49 GMT -5
Cult is not a label born out of love.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 8, 2015 10:48:25 GMT -5
Thank God you are not like those other people... ! "for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."
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Post by irvinegrey on May 8, 2015 12:39:51 GMT -5
The context may be different but the principle is the same. On examination in the light of Scripture it would be difficult to equate the practices of two by two movement with Christianity. The fact is that workers and overseers generally deny that salvation is by grace alone, through Christ alone, by faith alone. They have a works based salvation that is dependent upon subscribing to a lot of man-made rules that when broken calls into question their worthiness.
The tares and the wheat refers to the invisible church of Christ on earth and has cannot be reduced to denominations. Of course the movement denies that it is a denomination and advertises its missions as nondenominational.
When one reads Elizabeth Coleman’s book or Pamela Ruth Stewart’s book both who were born into the movement and their journey to faith in Christ, one understands how the two by two movement holds its adherents in line through fear and brainwashing.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 8, 2015 13:33:27 GMT -5
The context may be different but the principle is the same. On examination in the light of Scripture it would be difficult to equate the practices of two by two movement with Christianity. The fact is that workers and overseers generally deny that salvation is by grace alone, through Christ alone, by faith alone. They have a works based salvation that is dependent upon subscribing to a lot of man-made rules that when broken calls into question their worthiness. The tares and the wheat refers to the invisible church of Christ on earth and has cannot be reduced to denominations. Of course the movement denies that it is a denomination and advertises its missions as nondenominational. When one reads Elizabeth Coleman’s book or Pamela Ruth Stewart’s book both who were born into the movement and their journey to faith in Christ, one understands how the two by two movement holds its adherents in line through fear and brainwashing. Now 2x2s are not Christians. Cool. The only logical deduction from your exclusivist post is that all 2x2s are condemned to hell. If that isn't true then how it it determined who isn't condemned - by who leaves or stays?
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Post by irvinegrey on May 8, 2015 13:52:43 GMT -5
The context may be different but the principle is the same. On examination in the light of Scripture it would be difficult to equate the practices of two by two movement with Christianity. The fact is that workers and overseers generally deny that salvation is by grace alone, through Christ alone, by faith alone. They have a works based salvation that is dependent upon subscribing to a lot of man-made rules that when broken calls into question their worthiness. ~~ James wrote that Faith and Works go hand in hand. James 2:24-26 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.The tares and the wheat refers to the invisible church of Christ on earth and has cannot be reduced to denominations. Of course the movement denies that it is a denomination and advertises its missions as nondenominational. The church of Jesus is visible..... 40,000 denominations2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/76/40-000-christians-protestant-denominationsWhen one reads Elizabeth Coleman’s book or Pamela Ruth Stewart’s book both who were born into the movement and their journey to faith in Christ, one understands how the two by two movement holds its adherents in line through fear and brainwashing. hmmmmmm.... That is their experiences but that is NOT true in many cases..... through fear and brainwashing... many friends and myself on here can testify the opposite. I believe you went too far with your cult thing with 2x2.Is 2x2 a Cult as some people have called them? 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/174/2x2-cult-people Of course I have no difficulty with James that faith without works is dead. But I do have difficulty with a movement puts works before repentance and grace. I believe that works is evidence of our salvation but there is nothing we can contribute to our being born again. However, once born again then as is made clear in Ephesians that it is by grace we are saved then comes the works. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—[6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:4-10 ESV) As for going too far with this cult thing – why doesn’t someone in authority within the movement say without ambiguity; we accept John 1:1-18 that Jesus was God come in the flesh and that He was fully human and fully divine; that Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary is sufficient to atone for our sin (Romans 3:21-26); that salvation is by grace alone through Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) and without repentance we have no hope. After all this is the message of Jesus, [14] Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, [15] and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1:14-15 ESV) When the listeners on the Day of Pentecost cried out, ‘what must we do,’ Peter didn’t say well you have got to find a homeless preacher and a church that meets in the home. The response was clear and unequivocal, [38] And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 ESV)
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Post by xna on May 8, 2015 13:56:44 GMT -5
My phases after reading the 2x2 was a cult. 1. There is no way I was in a cult 2. Some parts of the cult definition fits 3. This cult info explains a lot 4. I was in a cult, WOW 5. All religions are cults of different sizes 6. Lots of companies use cult control mechanisms too 7. Call all religions a cult or none, it doesn’t much matter 8. Live and learn, better late than never 9. Add John Lennon’s - “ I Found Out” to play list
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Post by xna on May 8, 2015 15:11:53 GMT -5
Men are slow learners
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 16:08:12 GMT -5
................... Although I have no doubt that there are within the two by two movement genuinely born again believers I often wonder how they can stay within the movement when Scripture says, Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
(2 Corinthians 6:14-15 ESV) I believe your logic here is flawed. It is equivalent to saying to those in the church of Sardis (Rev 3), who God saw as not having stained their garments, that they were better off getting out of the church (a church which God himself viewed as dead). That’s not how God saw the way forward though. He knew those that were his, knew that he would not blot their names from the book of life, knew that they ‘shall walk with me in white’ etc. It sounds like they were in a good spiritual state right where they were. Succumbing to our own human thinking or wondering as to what other people should or should not do, is not wise. It would be better to ensure our own spiritual state is right and let others do the same. God will care and lead the way forward for all who are his.
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Post by fixit on May 8, 2015 16:38:55 GMT -5
Irvine Grey: Let's get to the bottom of this, are 2x2s who choose to stay in the cult condemned to hell? A simple yes or no answer will do. Anyone who refuses to repent and come to Christ alone through faith alone will never be with Christ in the new heaven and the new earth. Although I have no doubt that there are within the two by two movement genuinely born again believers I often wonder how they can stay within the movement when Scripture says, Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
(2 Corinthians 6:14-15 ESV) No doubt you have more in common with your Westbro Baptist brethren than with friends and workers.
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Post by SharonArnold on May 8, 2015 16:42:34 GMT -5
My phases after reading the 2x2 was a cult. 1. There is no way I was in a cult 2. Some parts of the cult definition fits 3. This cult info explains a lot 4. I was in a cult, WOW 5. All religions are cults of different sizes 6. Lots of companies use cult control mechanisms too 7. Call all religions a cult or none, it doesn’t much matter 8. Live and learn, better late than never 9. Add John Lennon’s - “ I Found Out” to play list Very deftly expressed! I think there are cult-like aspects to almost any social grouping - and not just humans! For my generation (baby boomer), I think the most influential "cult" that most of us probably encountered was our family of origin. A few years ago, I was struck by the following in a family's "Welcome to the World" celebrations for their newborn baby: "Be yourself: you don't have to be like us." (I sure didn't show up in this world to that kind of welcome!) Nevertheless, a couple of wiki sentences leap out at me: "However, whether any particular group's beliefs and practices are sufficiently deviant or novel is often unclear, thus making a precise definition problematic. In the English speaking world, the word often carries derogatory connotations. The word "cult" has always been controversial because it is (in a pejorative sense) considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with differing doctrines or practices, which lacks a clear or consistent definition." "By the late 1930s, the Christian countercult movement began using the term cult to what would formerly have been termed heresy." The part that is extremely clear to me, is that people who insist on using this kind of terminology have no interest in building bridges. They are only building egos and agendas. (There's a million ways to say the same thing without using derogatory or pejorative terms.)
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 16:49:44 GMT -5
I am fine with being called a cult member. I would be fine in Jesus' day too with the same accusation. I just don't want to be called "religious" as in someone who is part of mainstream Christianity, and be accepted of everybody in a way Jesus wasn't. What did Jesus say, "Woe unto you when all people speak well of you."
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Post by SharonArnold on May 8, 2015 17:00:51 GMT -5
Irvine Grey: Let's get to the bottom of this, are 2x2s who choose to stay in the cult condemned to hell? A simple yes or no answer will do. Anyone who refuses to repent and come to Christ alone through faith alone will never be with Christ in the new heaven and the new earth. Although I have no doubt that there are within the two by two movement genuinely born again believers I often wonder how they can stay within the movement when Scripture says, Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
(2 Corinthians 6:14-15 ESV) I have not read your book. Nor am I likely to. Nor am I impressed with any of your academic credentials. Whenever I read your posts, whether here, or other groups I am part of, my most common reaction is "You old Pharisee". My reaction. I own it. Though I am not really a Bible reader anymore, these are the verses that come to my mind: Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV) 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. If you had spent some time "in the trenches" (as Elizabeth has), I would think you are entitled to anything you have to say, in any way you want to say it. But you didn't. Therefore, I don't think asking for some objectivity and true scholarship is not too much to ask.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 17:50:21 GMT -5
Irvine Grey: Let's get to the bottom of this, are 2x2s who choose to stay in the cult condemned to hell? A simple yes or no answer will do. Jesse, your relentless obsession with whether or not you are going to hell is really starting to intrigue me. On and on it goes for umpteen pages of complete pointlessness to the very edge of exhaustion. Now I want to know what you think. Am I going to hell? I don't believe in God, I refuse to follow Jesus, I think the bible contains a lot of old wives takes and I think the crucifixion was a hoax. I have heard the gospel preached a thousand times by workers, ministers and priests, I have sang hymns about The Lord and been baptised and at one stage was convinced that I even heard God speak. But yet I still firmly reject the idea that Jesus can save me from my sins or that there is a God who gives a hoot. So let's get to the bottom of this. Do you think I am hell bound in a hand cart or not? Matt10
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 17:59:38 GMT -5
At least you are honest Matt10 !!!! I can live with honest people - you know where you stand.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 18:20:33 GMT -5
Irvine Grey: Let's get to the bottom of this, are 2x2s who choose to stay in the cult condemned to hell? A simple yes or no answer will do. Jesse, your relentless obsession with whether or not you are going to hell is really starting to intrigue me. On and on it goes for umpteen pages of complete pointlessness to the very edge of exhaustion. Now I want to know what you think. Am I going to hell? I don't believe in God, I refuse to follow Jesus, I think the bible contains a lot of old wives takes and I think the crucifixion was a hoax. I have heard the gospel preached a thousand times by workers, ministers and priests, I have sang hymns about The Lord and been baptised and at one stage was convinced that I even heard God speak. But yet I still firmly reject the idea that Jesus can save me from my sins or that there is a God who gives a hoot. So let's get to the bottom of this. Do you think I am hell bound in a hand cart or not? Matt10 I guess the real question is have you blasphemed/renounced the Holy Spirit? if you have your lost if you haven't there is still hope for you through Jesus Christ...
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 18:28:02 GMT -5
Jesse, your relentless obsession with whether or not you are going to hell is really starting to intrigue me. On and on it goes for umpteen pages of complete pointlessness to the very edge of exhaustion. Now I want to know what you think. Am I going to hell? I don't believe in God, I refuse to follow Jesus, I think the bible contains a lot of old wives takes and I think the crucifixion was a hoax. I have heard the gospel preached a thousand times by workers, ministers and priests, I have sang hymns about The Lord and been baptised and at one stage was convinced that I even heard God speak. But yet I still firmly reject the idea that Jesus can save me from my sins or that there is a God who gives a hoot. So let's get to the bottom of this. Do you think I am hell bound in a hand cart or not? Matt10 Matt, Can I have a go at answering? You can take this complement; you sound a little like Legion in the Bible (he was bound with chains at time.. but no mention of a hand cart). Jesus was the only one who could help him and I would think it will be the same in your case. Now how is that? You can have a go at answering but it is only what Jesse thinks that really interests me. Only he raises my level of intrigue sufficiently to care what he thinks. By the way, I very much doubt that Jesus can help me. He had a go once and it didn't work out. I later learned that, fine fellow that he was, his failure to help was due to him no longer being around. Ah well, I guess that's the way it goes. It seems like you just can't depend on anyone these days. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 18:32:14 GMT -5
Jesse, your relentless obsession with whether or not you are going to hell is really starting to intrigue me. On and on it goes for umpteen pages of complete pointlessness to the very edge of exhaustion. Now I want to know what you think. Am I going to hell? I don't believe in God, I refuse to follow Jesus, I think the bible contains a lot of old wives takes and I think the crucifixion was a hoax. I have heard the gospel preached a thousand times by workers, ministers and priests, I have sang hymns about The Lord and been baptised and at one stage was convinced that I even heard God speak. But yet I still firmly reject the idea that Jesus can save me from my sins or that there is a God who gives a hoot. So let's get to the bottom of this. Do you think I am hell bound in a hand cart or not? Matt10 I guess the real question is have you blasphemed/renounced the Holy Spirit? if you have your lost if you haven't there is still hope for you through Jesus Christ... I think it was more a case of the Holy Spirit renouncing me. It seems like there really is no hope. Matt10
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 8, 2015 18:38:31 GMT -5
Matt10: I answered that question on page 6 of the Cult to Christ thread.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 18:39:21 GMT -5
I guess the real question is have you blasphemed/renounced the Holy Spirit? if you have your lost if you haven't there is still hope for you through Jesus Christ... I think it was more a case of the Holy Spirit renouncing me. It seems like there really is no hope. Matt10 that's not really answering the question but I think the picture is more clear now you've left your self an out so there is still hope even when you don't think there is...good to know
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