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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 17:13:22 GMT -5
Post by sharonw on Sept 22, 2011 17:13:22 GMT -5
Perhaps you can enlighten this board on what standard you require for absolute proof of hatred. TMB board readers; Don't worry about proving hatred - hatred, assumed or real should be ignored, you should act as if it isn't true. That's what I advocate, and I think it's the Christian thing to do. Jesse, you have held to always blaming the person that is the receipient of offenses before...how uncompassionate are you, anyway? I have a relative that always takes the part of the person who has done the offense all of my life. And further more this person has NO compassion toward others in an entire lifetime. It is very evident when around sick family or friends...or someone grieved at the death of their partner in life...what this person told the griever about a week later of the funeral of his spouse...."*****, get ahold of your bootstraps and pull yourself up and get on with your life." I think that was the coldest thing anyone has ever said to someone who was suffering real grief, don't you. Also this same person told me, about 6 hours after the memorial for my husband...."Now you can do all you want to do, you're not tied down any more." I still want to hiss and spit over that comment....I told this person to never say such words again to someone who is suffering the loss of a loved one....I did not feel bound or tied down in my marriage nor was there ever anything of importance that I had wanted to do and did not get to do. This person did not learn the lesson for here about 5 years later this person is telling the poor one who was suffering the loss of companion.....in pull up your bootstraps and get on with your life." How cold can that be, Jesse? Don't you see the coldness in your insistence of proof of hatred? Negating the deep emotions of someone does NOT help, Jesse...never has and never will....you and Lin both can be pretty uncompassionate at times. Evidence you've never suffered, IMO How lucky can you get, eh?
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 17:18:54 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 17:18:54 GMT -5
How do you know when there is hate?
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Sept 22, 2011 17:24:31 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 17:24:31 GMT -5
TMB board readers; Don't worry about proving hatred - hatred, assumed or real should be ignored, you should act as if it isn't true. That's what I advocate, and I think it's the Christian thing to do. Jesse, you have held to always blaming the person that is the receipient of offenses before...how uncompassionate are you, anyway? How is that answer blaming a recipient of an offense? I'm saying assuming someone hates you is offensive, not only to them but to you! So don't do it, it will never help remedy the situation.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 17:26:01 GMT -5
Post by sharonw on Sept 22, 2011 17:26:01 GMT -5
can we instead of "hate" call it a "lack of love"? I don't know, I don't think so. How would "lack of love" be objectively and positively identified? Wouldn't that just as likely be a subjective assumption? What if love is there but is perceived as being shunned? Like what and Scott said it's not hate - it's not knowing what to do or say, it might be that some of those friends and workers are feeling just as miserable as Alexander and his wife. They might be wondering if Alexander and his wife hate them, if they read here they might have valid reason to wonder, not by what Alexander says but by what some others say. That's the trouble with trying to evaluate something like this using emotion and one side of the story - it's a sad mess. It needs a bit of logical unemotional Spock. One thing is for sure - it's not going to get fixed here on TMB. Jesse, you must look at the whole life's picture of Alexander and wife...they both were workers at one time which would be at the pinnacle of 2x2ism...fully adored and fully accepted....that's the life of workership UNTIL something causes someone over them to demote them or to push them to leave the work and/or they've also entered into the top level of "friend life" having had mtgs. and many worker visits during the ongoing years until they ended up with "too many kids"....I don't see how Alexander and/or wife either one have time for anything else, but they do somehow...people have different talents, Jesse and often we find some people with exceptional talents and it isn't right to "kill" those talents with a spiritual killing. I find it very difficult to understand why Alexander and family want to hang onto the fellowship when it is apparent the fellowship doesn't want them......of course I'm of the fabric IF I'm not wanted, I sure try to find a place where I am wanted. It's too hard on the nervous system otherwise.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 17:32:25 GMT -5
Post by alexander on Sept 22, 2011 17:32:25 GMT -5
Likewise ronhall talked with someone about this from his home in the Northwest with someone in Texas, and it is being read and discussed by people from around the world. What stands out to many of them are things such as this I received concerning this thread: I do not know what to say to comfort them, but I love them more than they can know. Actually, I would give my place and life for them if it would help. I think they are wasting their time if these overseers are as heartless as that..................That is from a professing lady I correspond with who is one of the many 'readers' of the TMB that is not a registered member here. Like I previously posted, these overseers really do not understand the far-reaching impact these stories have on members of their church, and the loss of respect and trust that they are going through when such things are not being handled by them. What is so hard (other than a pride issue maybe?) with scheduling a meeting with alexander and either telling him to take a hike or to resolve the issue to keep the family in the church? Not that hard to do really. Either of them are welcome to contact me if they wish their side of the issue to be known. I've discussed things with other overseers which led to resolutions, and if they need some help with resolving this issue I am willing to help out...... Scott Thanks, Scott. That lady did call. I am going to tell my family that we received a call from an angel. I feel that her kindness, care, and compassion will resonate for a lifetime.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 17:34:49 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Sept 22, 2011 17:34:49 GMT -5
That's the trouble with trying to evaluate something like this using emotion and one side of the story - it's a sad mess. It needs a bit of logical unemotional Spock. Actually, Jesse, you need to watch the Star Trek episodes more closely. Vulcans use logic because they possess strong emotions and seek to channel these emotions productively. Also, Vulcans are in tune with each other, so they cry when another Vulcan is in pain. This encourages them to engage in peaceful measures, so that they do not suffer from the pain they could inflict on another. Spock would cry when fellow Vulcans were hurting, even when these Vulcans were galaxies away. If you want the whole story, do the Vulcan mind meld thing. It'll keep most of us from wanting to do the Vulcan shoulder grab thing...
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 17:45:50 GMT -5
Post by sharonw on Sept 22, 2011 17:45:50 GMT -5
Our kids never left meeting unless it was a dire emergency. They were to go before meeting, or pretend they were a water balloon. One of the few times one of our kids left meeting was when I sat on his head after giving my testimony. He got a bloody nose that wouldn't quit so he and I had to spend most of the rest of meeting in the bathroom. It bled so much he threw up. I didn't know if we were going to have to go to the emergency room or not. I learned my lesson, I never sat on his head again. Lol! ;D Great (although a bit scary...) story Jesse. I'll bet there were a few who were about to bust a gut over that - until they saw or realized there could have been some serious hurt. Thanks for sharing. Jesse was lucky a bloody nose was all the kid had...he could have broken his neck and paralyzed him or killed him....whether the "sitting on head" was a way Jesse had of teaching the kid not to lie down and sleep in mtg. or whether it was an accident...I have to wonder how attentive to his kid he was to start with IF this was an accident!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 17:54:10 GMT -5
Jesse, you have held to always blaming the person that is the receipient of offenses before...how uncompassionate are you, anyway? I have a relative that always takes the part of the person who has done the offense all of my life. And further more this person has NO compassion toward others in an entire lifetime. It is very evident when around sick family or friends...or someone grieved at the death of their partner in life...what this person told the griever about a week later of the funeral of his spouse...."*****, get ahold of your bootstraps and pull yourself up and get on with your life." I think that was the coldest thing anyone has ever said to someone who was suffering real grief, don't you. Also this same person told me, about 6 hours after the memorial for my husband...."Now you can do all you want to do, you're not tied down any more." I still want to hiss and spit over that comment....I told this person to never say such words again to someone who is suffering the loss of a loved one....I did not feel bound or tied down in my marriage nor was there ever anything of importance that I had wanted to do and did not get to do. This person did not learn the lesson for here about 5 years later this person is telling the poor one who was suffering the loss of companion.....in pull up your bootstraps and get on with your life." How cold can that be, Jesse? Don't you see the coldness in your insistence of proof of hatred? Negating the deep emotions of someone does NOT help, Jesse...never has and never will....you and Lin both can be pretty uncompassionate at times. Evidence you've never suffered, IMO How lucky can you get, eh? Good gosh, how un-gracious you can be sharonw?! One interesting biblical comment of those who are His is that " nothing shall offend them" You can always tell when someone is using human nature to be their guide.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 18:12:23 GMT -5
Post by kencoolidge on Sept 22, 2011 18:12:23 GMT -5
Alexander Now if you only apologized to the workers, ettu, jesse, yknot for you and your families unacceptable behavior they would warmly accept you back into the den. I think one of the threads someone spoke about the difference in choosing to inflict pain and inadvertently doing so. I have appreciated that thought. Some post are clothed with smooth words but peal off the cover and what you have is a choice to support the wrong and a distorted way of thinking and justify it as Gods will. You know its your families fault for the actions that these righteous men have taken. Like Noel has said it is pretty sad for a family trying to fellowship with Gods people. ken
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 18:17:28 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 18:17:28 GMT -5
A wise man learns after one lesson~ I learned not to wear long skirts with an elastic waistband after standing up while simultaneously standing on the hem of my skirt. Thankfully, I was wearing a slip that day. Oh my! That's probobly still talked about! ;D Fondly I'm sure! It's probably happened - or nearly so to someone else I'll bet. Thanks for sharing. It's always tough to give your testimony at convention, especially for teenagers with horrible stage fright. I good friend of mine, almost as baddly affected as I sat back down with such relief that he took over our whole bench with him. Sheesh! Oh well, at least we got to see the faces of most of the girls who otherwise may not have given us a second glance. Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic, but thanks anyway.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 18:21:03 GMT -5
Post by JO on Sept 22, 2011 18:21:03 GMT -5
One interesting biblical comment of those who are His is that " nothing shall offend them" You can always tell when someone is using human nature to be their guide. An interesting biblical comment mentioned in three of the gospels: Matthew 18:6-7 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!
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Sept 22, 2011 18:29:18 GMT -5
Post by What Hat on Sept 22, 2011 18:29:18 GMT -5
A wise man learns after one lesson~ I learned not to wear long skirts with an elastic waistband after standing up while simultaneously standing on the hem of my skirt. Thankfully, I was wearing a slip that day. Oh my! That's probobly still talked about! ;D Fondly I'm sure! It's probably happened - or nearly so to someone else I'll bet. Thanks for sharing. It's always tough to give your testimony at convention, especially for teenagers with horrible stage fright. I good friend of mine, almost as baddly affected as I sat back down with such relief that he took over our whole bench with him. Sheesh! Oh well, at least we got to see the faces of most of the girls who otherwise may not have given us a second glance. Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic, but thanks anyway. How about the old "skirt tucked into the pantyhose after returning from the washroom" trick. I've seen this on several occasions. The only course of action I know is to avoid the person until the problem is corrected.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 18:34:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 18:34:32 GMT -5
.... I do not want to render evil for evil- and I pray that the Lord will help me to be wise. Well, you certainly started off on the wrong foot in that regard with your opening post. Have you asked God why you were asked to not come? What does he say? I have an even better idea. Why don't you ask God and pass on the information to Alexander?
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Sept 22, 2011 18:38:51 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 18:38:51 GMT -5
How about the old "skirt tucked into the pantyhose after returning from the washroom" trick. I've seen this on several occasions. The only course of action I know is to avoid the person until the problem is corrected. What! YOU shunned them? Don't you know you should not stand by wondering what to do? You stand condemned by the absence of sound moral action!
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 18:45:35 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 18:45:35 GMT -5
Jesse was lucky a bloody nose was all the kid had...he could have broken his neck and paralyzed him or killed him....whether the "sitting on head" was a way Jesse had of teaching the kid not to lie down and sleep in mtg. or whether it was an accident...I have to wonder how attentive to his kid he was to start with IF this was an accident! Oh good grief! I love this long distance analysis. Now I'm some sort of negligent parent and potential child killer. It wasn't right on top of his head, he was moving out of the way and it barely caught his nose. Wait until I tell him you think could have killed him or broke his neck and paralyzed him. He'll probably ->
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 18:48:01 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 18:48:01 GMT -5
Sharon why do you seem so bitter and angry so much of the time? What's going on?
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 18:55:03 GMT -5
Post by pinky on Sept 22, 2011 18:55:03 GMT -5
Jesse, you have held to always blaming the person that is the receipient of offenses before...how uncompassionate are you, anyway? I have a relative that always takes the part of the person who has done the offense all of my life. And further more this person has NO compassion toward others in an entire lifetime. It is very evident when around sick family or friends...or someone grieved at the death of their partner in life...what this person told the griever about a week later of the funeral of his spouse...."*****, get ahold of your bootstraps and pull yourself up and get on with your life." I think that was the coldest thing anyone has ever said to someone who was suffering real grief, don't you. Also this same person told me, about 6 hours after the memorial for my husband...."Now you can do all you want to do, you're not tied down any more." I still want to hiss and spit over that comment....I told this person to never say such words again to someone who is suffering the loss of a loved one....I did not feel bound or tied down in my marriage nor was there ever anything of importance that I had wanted to do and did not get to do. This person did not learn the lesson for here about 5 years later this person is telling the poor one who was suffering the loss of companion.....in pull up your bootstraps and get on with your life." How cold can that be, Jesse? Don't you see the coldness in your insistence of proof of hatred? Negating the deep emotions of someone does NOT help, Jesse...never has and never will....you and Lin both can be pretty uncompassionate at times. Evidence you've never suffered, IMO How lucky can you get, eh? Good gosh, how un-gracious you can be sharonw?! One interesting biblical comment of those who are His is that " nothing shall offend them" You can always tell when someone is using human nature to be their guide. Sharon is bang-on. Jesse won't speak out about the appalling behaviour that Alexander is describing that brings his wife to tears, but rather the choice of word his wife uttered to express the anguish, pain and rejection that engulfed her in the moment. Jesse is being incredibly 'male' if I can say so, and operating purely on a head level, judging using a male's cold hard logic the pained emotions of an anguished woman's heart. My apologies to the male population who can and do have the ability to relate to women and the way they can feel deeply, and emotionally at times. We saw the same thing with CSA issues, Jesse tends to not see the forest for the trees. He argues about something reasonably irrelevant to the real issue at hand. It may even be a diversionary tactic. Sorry Jesse, but we've hashed this over before! You frustrate me beyond words sometimes, I often read your posts with my lower jaw dropped. I'm flabbergasted at your earlier post, when Alexander replied that he will advise his wife in future to desist from hyperbole and exaggeration in her anguished state (clearly sarcasm!), and you said ok, thanks, tell me what her response is! Seriously? I can't work out if this is another F&W apologist project to take on board, or a more simple 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' one.
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Sept 22, 2011 19:21:14 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 19:21:14 GMT -5
I often read your posts with my lower jaw dropped. We have something in common, I often read your posts with my lower jaw dropped. I've talked to Alexander on the phone, and I'd talk to his wife too. I really don't believe it is a good or emotionally healthy thing to assume people hate you. If it's really true they are not worth knowing. But both Scott and what said they didn't think it was hate - wait they are both men... Pinky, while you're wound up with your long distance electronic analysis; I'm married, we just had our 24th anniversary, what is my wife like? What kind of woman would stay married 24 years to a evil thug like me who condones child molestation, shunning, and all sorts of other horrible things? Let's hear it.
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Sept 22, 2011 19:37:14 GMT -5
Post by What Hat on Sept 22, 2011 19:37:14 GMT -5
How about the old "skirt tucked into the pantyhose after returning from the washroom" trick. I've seen this on several occasions. The only course of action I know is to avoid the person until the problem is corrected. What! YOU shunned them? Don't you know you should not stand by wondering what to do? You stand condemned by the absence of sound moral action! LOL. Something like "discretion is the better part of valour" is coming to mind.
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Sept 22, 2011 19:48:22 GMT -5
Post by JO on Sept 22, 2011 19:48:22 GMT -5
Our kids never left meeting unless it was a dire emergency. They were to go before meeting, or pretend they were a water balloon. One of the few times one of our kids left meeting was when I sat on his head after giving my testimony. He got a bloody nose that wouldn't quit so he and I had to spend most of the rest of meeting in the bathroom. It bled so much he threw up. I didn't know if we were going to have to go to the emergency room or not. I learned my lesson, I never sat on his head again. So the story has changed now? You didn't sit on his head at all? Sorry for taking your earlier post seriously. Oh good grief! I love this long distance analysis. Now I'm some sort of negligent parent and potential child killer. It wasn't right on top of his head, he was moving out of the way and it barely caught his nose. Wait until I tell him you think could have killed him or broke his neck and paralyzed him. He'll probably ->
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Sept 22, 2011 19:50:27 GMT -5
Post by JO on Sept 22, 2011 19:50:27 GMT -5
Well, you certainly started off on the wrong foot in that regard with your opening post. Have you asked God why you were asked to not come? What does he say? I have an even better idea. Why don't you ask God and pass on the information to Alexander? Perhaps someone needs to ask God, and then let the overseer know where God stands on the matter.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 19:51:15 GMT -5
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 22, 2011 19:51:15 GMT -5
I visited Sacramento (most of my family lived there at the time) three years ago, when Jayne and I were in the midst of our extremely hurtful situation. I was very hurt and very angry, and I said a lot of things to some family members - my folks and a younger brother, who still professes.
I realize now that my anger (obviously) was not helpful, but I can certainly understand - from the way I felt - why Alexander's wife would make a statement as she did. I made comments about "all the friends" - I now realize that not all of the friends are this way, but, at the time, our "entire world" was "being turned upside down." When friend after friend turns away from you - and this was nearly all of the friends here on O'ahu, as well as many workers whom I had worked with for years - you begin to wonder if you're going crazy or what.
To insist on "objectivity" makes no sense to me - are we not humans, with emotions? How are we to step out of a situation and somehow pretend we're not involved, dispassionately making an assessment. I value the things my wife feels (and I feel a lot of it too), though I have often told her that when attempting to "bring our case" to anyone, that I wanted to be able to "rationally" explain it to the workers, taking things through a "logical" sequence - there is a place for both. But to insist that Alexander's wife should calmly step back and calmly evaluate a situation in which she is hurting - perhaps more than she has ever hurt before - is bordering on absurdity, in my opinion. She'll work her way through it, and eventually be able to see what has occurred, and make choices accordingly. Give people room to hurt, and to be human!
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 19:57:41 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 19:57:41 GMT -5
I have an even better idea. Why don't you ask God and pass on the information to Alexander? Perhaps someone needs to ask God, and then let the overseer know where God stands on the matter. Yes, since it was ettu's original idea, I think he should ask God and let both Alexander and the overseer know where God stands on this. That should resolve matters quickly.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 20:00:42 GMT -5
Post by stargazer on Sept 22, 2011 20:00:42 GMT -5
Well, I tend to give Alexander's wife a buy on hyperbole. Having roots in the south, I'm familiar with expressions which might be like having the "worst day of my life" "I'm gonna kill him/her for spilling that on my shirt" In oral dialogue we get carried away sometimes but understand the context.
I don't know the personalities here, but Alexander I'm sorry your wife is upset. But I do think you'd serve your purpose by taking the responsibility for repeating her hyperbole and then letting her hang out in the wind (in absentia, mind you). Did you ask her if you could repeat her emotional statements? It strikes me that you may have over exploited (I don't know rightly or wrongly) the comment.
I asked a friend of mine in the south who will remain nameless to see if influence could be exerted to resolve this matter. It'd be nice not to read about this. So for the record, I suspect there are others who have looked into this and are concerned and that have trepidation making it public because of having their comments placed here, risking, as did you wife, the lack of context. Perhaps it's gutless, but then we do understand human foibles, or don't we?
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Sept 22, 2011 20:07:51 GMT -5
Post by alexander on Sept 22, 2011 20:07:51 GMT -5
Well, I tend to give Alexander's wife a buy on hyperbole. Having roots in the south, I'm familiar with expressions which might be like having the "worst day of my life" "I'm gonna kill him/her for spilling that on my shirt" In oral dialogue we get carried away sometimes but understand the context. I don't know the personalities here, but Alexander I'm sorry your wife is upset. But I do think you'd serve your purpose by taking the responsibility for repeating her hyperbole and then letting her hang out in the wind (in absentia, mind you). Did you ask her if you could repeat her emotional statements? I asked a friend of mine in the south who will remain nameless to see if influence could be exerted to resolve this matter. It'd be nice not to read about this. So for the record, I suspect there are others who have looked into this and are concerned and that have trepidation making it public because of having their comments placed here, risking, as did you wife, the lack of context. Sorry, Stargazer. I was just trying to say that she was hurting. I didn't realize that her hyperbole would be taken literally. That is my fault. I have not posted many things that people have told me- even the overseers- as it would just inflame the situation. i try to have discretion, but I fail at times. But, thanks for the words of wisdom. The initial post has been helpful, though- it answered the prayer of a lady, one of the friends, that reads but does not post on this board.
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Sept 22, 2011 20:14:00 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Sept 22, 2011 20:14:00 GMT -5
You are very welcome!
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Sept 22, 2011 20:16:43 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 20:16:43 GMT -5
Sorry, Stargazer. I was just trying to say that she was hurting. I didn't realize that her hyperbole would be taken literally. Now that I'm getting attacked for changing my story I have a question. How in the world would any reader not know the feeling of being hated was hyperbole when you reconfirmed being hated the way you did? Being the cold and hard hearted logical person I am I believed you, that you indeed felt hated. Now you are saying that isn't true? She also said that she was upset that everyone (meaning our friends and relatives in the 2x2 system) hate us. And she is correct in that- we are literally despised and hated by our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ in our area at the leading of the overseers.
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Sept 22, 2011 20:29:50 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 20:29:50 GMT -5
So the story has changed now? You didn't sit on his head at all? Sorry for taking your earlier post seriously. Not right on top of his head and crush it into a wooden chair, we were on a couch. JO it's a light hearted fun story I tell on myself, I knew his head was there. No, I didn't speak long and boring enough to put him to sleep, and I wasn't going to break his neck, paralyze, or kill him. He's done more things all by himself that were more likely to hurt him than anything I did.
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