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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 14:10:00 GMT -5
Post by alexander on Sept 22, 2011 14:10:00 GMT -5
that you hold a variety of unwelcome views--any one of which would be enough to get you ex'd. Did they give any examples of the unwelcome views that I am supposed to hold?
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 14:13:26 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 14:13:26 GMT -5
that you hold a variety of unwelcome views--any one of which would be enough to get you ex'd. Did they give any examples of the unwelcome views that I am supposed to hold? Your non-exclusive views alone would be enough to get you kicked out of some areas, irrespective of all the other stuff combined.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 14:20:56 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 14:20:56 GMT -5
a few decades back the US Supreme Court was arguing over a definition of what constituted pornography. One of the justices said he didn't know how to define it clearly in words--but he knew it when he saw it. It is hard to define "lack of love" but I think most of us know it when we see it. It's always tough to pretend we can rigidly define something when what we are using is assumption and opinion. What is pornography to someone is not to another, what's hate to someone might not even be noticed by others, what's thought to be a deliberate "lack of love" to someone might not be an issue at all to someone else. So when you say the above I understand the concept but personally I don't think that that way, I spend very little time wondering if others love me, hate me, want to kill me, whatever. Far better to spend time treating others the way you would like to be treated. If you don't want to others to assume you hate them - don't assume they hate you. I agree, especially when there seems there would be such easy ways to fix it. You are one of the easiest people here to have a conversation with, I appreciate that.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 14:22:03 GMT -5
Post by alexander on Sept 22, 2011 14:22:03 GMT -5
Did they give any examples of the unwelcome views that I am supposed to hold? Is it true that you allow one of the older foster children to attend a different church? Because that is a no-no if a child lives under your roof.... Yes. By state law we have to. Foster kids can go to their choice of church. And if one thinks about it- that is the right decision because what if it were some of the friend's kids in foster care and they wanted to go to meeting but their foster parent's were Catholic (for example)? By state law, the foster parents would have to accommodate the kids going to meeting if at all possible.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 14:23:31 GMT -5
Post by alexander on Sept 22, 2011 14:23:31 GMT -5
Did they give any examples of the unwelcome views that I am supposed to hold? Your non-exclusive views alone would be enough to get you kicked out of some areas, irrespective of all the other stuff combined. So, would Noels and other workers that hold that viewpoint (remember John Wegter posted here not too long ago that many workers are non-exclusivists) be "kicked out" to?
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 14:26:20 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 14:26:20 GMT -5
The fact that people won't tell you to your face means they know some of this is untrue (or at very least exaggerated). I stand by the lack of love. If I was the overseer, I would simply put meeting in your home (the solution that has been proposed several times on these boards). If Alexander is considered to be unable to control his kids in meeting, then a meeting would never go into his home under the clause of an elder "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?"
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 14:37:17 GMT -5
Post by Done4now on Sept 22, 2011 14:37:17 GMT -5
You are one of the easiest people here to have a conversation with, I appreciate that. Thank you for that Jesse. I have a lot of respect for you.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 14:39:49 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 14:39:49 GMT -5
Your non-exclusive views alone would be enough to get you kicked out of some areas, irrespective of all the other stuff combined. So, would Noels and other workers that hold that viewpoint (remember John Wegter posted here not too long ago that many workers are non-exclusivists) be "kicked out" to? Very few people will come right out and verify their non-exclusivity. It seems acceptable these days to hold open the possibility that there may be some people somewhere who could be saved outside the meetings but they would eventually be led to the workers. I suppose you could call that non-exclusivity but just barely. I have yet to hear noels or John Wegter or any worker say that they believe other ministries (and know of some) who could be considered equally as valid for salvation as the workers' ministry. That's non-exclusivity within the broader Christian exclusivity. I think something that clear could lead to removal from the work and possibly the meetings in some areas. Have you ever known of a worker to quote another Christian minister at convention without working against that minister? Those who are non-exclusive or who are moving in that direction choose their words very carefully. To state a non-exclusive position plainly would upset a lot of people which is what would lead to removal. As long as you are obtuse about it, it gets left alone. I'm sure you know how it works.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 14:44:04 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 14:44:04 GMT -5
If Alexander is considered to be unable to control his kids in meeting, then a meeting would never go into his home under the clause of an elder "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?" I don't think DK would consider an eldership forAlexander at this point. If they went this route it would likely be a meeting sans emblems--or a meeting with an elder brought in from elsewhere. Possible, but I've tried that route for someone who was considered unsuitable to attend the regular meetings. No dice, I was flatly refused when I suggested something as mundane as an informal bible study Thursday night with totally voluntary attendance. When the next person after that was kicked out, I didn't even try that idea. We all know Einstein's definition of insanity.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 15:03:20 GMT -5
Post by alexander on Sept 22, 2011 15:03:20 GMT -5
What have you heard? This is a promising start. that you are one of those ex-workers who is attention seeking (I didn't take this very seriously--as I believe a similar charge was flung at Alan?) that they see most of what you do as attention seeking, including having a large family and criticizing people for their interactions with your children. that you are a particular burden on a meeting , because they do not know how many to set up for, your family is habitually at least 15 min late. Then after disrupting the meeting with your entrance, they say that the bathroom trips begin--and go on throughout the meeting as child after child visits the restroom. that you took your case to an overseer outside of your area and did not tell him the full truth of the matter--causing him to get involved when he shouldn't have and making him lose face. that you are criticizing your elder and overseer on TMB and stirring up trouble against them. that you hold a variety of unwelcome views--any one of which would be enough to get you ex'd. that is a start. I have no idea how much of this is true. I talked to 2 Georgia elders, one family in Alabama, and an ex-friend in North Carolina who has prominent family throughout the south. As I wrote you in a PM, this did bring tears to me eyes. So, I guess this helpful thread was prophetically named. But, there is comfort in that it is all untrue (except for holding a variety of unwelcome views- I do do that- I don't believe in the workers shunning, for example, and this is an unwelcome view).
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 15:06:06 GMT -5
Post by alexander on Sept 22, 2011 15:06:06 GMT -5
God is able to turn bad into good. He has a purpose - maybe it is time to move on. I agree. But instead of being the time to move on, I feel more then ever, it is the time to stand true against the forces of darkness. Lies are of darkness.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 15:06:20 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Sept 22, 2011 15:06:20 GMT -5
The friends may not hate in this case, but they still stand condemned by their absence of sound moral action. And that kind of absence in extreme cases has led to horrible things, atrocities, wars and other deprivations. In this case it leads to constructive expulsion. Ok. Say those friends come here and read; "She also said that she was upset that everyone (meaning our friends and relatives in the 2x2 system) hate us. And she is correct in that- we are literally despised and hated by our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ in our area at the leading of the overseers." What should be their sound moral action in response to that? Ok. Say those friends come here and read;
What should be their sound moral action in response to that?Quite possibly as others who have read here have done. I have had a couple of workers contact me and ask to be put in contact with alexander which I have done. Likewise, I just responded to an email from a professing lady that is a regular reader here who is in her 70's that wishes to be in contact with alexander's wife. I DO think that there are quite a few things that get resolved here on the TMB Jesse. The reason is because when issues such as this are brought 'before the church' (and I am including ALL of us that are Christians and try to show each other love) in between all the .... uh..... 'stuff' that we read are some real good suggestions and thoughts regarding various issues. Just bringing an awareness of issues has had a positive effect in several cases that I know of, which resulted in actions and remedies being taken. Scott
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 15:07:09 GMT -5
Post by Done4now on Sept 22, 2011 15:07:09 GMT -5
that you are one of those ex-workers who is attention seeking (I didn't take this very seriously--as I believe a similar charge was flung at Alan?) that they see most of what you do as attention seeking, including having a large family and criticizing people for their interactions with your children. that you are a particular burden on a meeting , because they do not know how many to set up for, your family is habitually at least 15 min late. Then after disrupting the meeting with your entrance, they say that the bathroom trips begin--and go on throughout the meeting as child after child visits the restroom. that you took your case to an overseer outside of your area and did not tell him the full truth of the matter--causing him to get involved when he shouldn't have and making him lose face. that you are criticizing your elder and overseer on TMB and stirring up trouble against them. that you hold a variety of unwelcome views--any one of which would be enough to get you ex'd. that is a start. I have no idea how much of this is true. I talked to 2 Georgia elders, one family in Alabama, and an ex-friend in North Carolina who has prominent family throughout the south. As I wrote you in a PM, this did bring tears to me eyes. So, I guess this helpful thread was prophetically named. But, there is comfort in that it is all untrue (except for holding a variety of unwelcome views- I do do that- I don't believe in the workers shunning, for example). I don't know any of the people involved personally--but I do know that from what I have seen on this board and by PM, you have a beautiful spirit and much love in your heart for all. I know that however it turns out, God will be with you.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 15:19:35 GMT -5
Post by kencoolidge on Sept 22, 2011 15:19:35 GMT -5
God is able to turn bad into good. He has a purpose - maybe it is time to move on. I agree. But instead of being the time to move on, I feel more then ever, it is the time to stand true against the forces of darkness. Lies are of darkness. Alexander Don't let the enemy set the rules of engagement ken
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Sept 22, 2011 15:19:57 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Sept 22, 2011 15:19:57 GMT -5
alexander, other rumors have been that you have suffered a nervous breakdown and your children are unruly.
I'm sorry - I'm also sure that the person that sent that to me would also say to you that they don't have a problem with you.
Nice touch - professing folks complain about the shrinking of the meetings but won't stop the gossip-mongering and games that lead to professing leaving the meetings...or being shunned or excommunicated...
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 15:23:09 GMT -5
Post by dlb5674 on Sept 22, 2011 15:23:09 GMT -5
Not attributing hate to others is a very simple thing to do - if Scott, you, and I can do it so can anyone else. Not attributing hate to others is something that should be encouraged not discouraged. The key is to be aware of your own emotional state, when it's high inject some calm rational common sense like Scott and you have done when you say what's happening it not hate. It's not knowing what to do. Not knowing what to do - not knowing how to handle something, or handling something in a disagreeable manner is not automatically outright hate. can we instead of "hate" call it a "lack of love"? Unless one has been on the receiving end of shunning it's hard to understand what Alexander and his family are facing. Jesse, I appreciate what ckirkham states here regarding a "lack of love", which to me is as bad as hate. Revelation 3:16 is pretty clear about God's view of "lukewarm" hearts. Indifference, to me, is similar. Alexander, I encourage you to find fellowship with those who are willing to support their brothers and sisters in Christ. I mean no hurt with this comment but you can only bang your head against a wall so long until it's time to experience some relief.
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Sept 22, 2011 15:23:37 GMT -5
Post by alexander on Sept 22, 2011 15:23:37 GMT -5
I agree. But instead of being the time to move on, I feel more then ever, it is the time to stand true against the forces of darkness. Lies are of darkness. Alexander Don't let the enemy set the rules of engagement ken I think that I know what you mean. I do not want to render evil for evil- and I pray that the Lord will help me to be wise.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 15:28:03 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Sept 22, 2011 15:28:03 GMT -5
Likewise ronhall talked with someone about this from his home in the Northwest with someone in Texas, and it is being read and discussed by people from around the world. What stands out to many of them are things such as this I received concerning this thread: I do not know what to say to comfort them, but I love them more than they can know. Actually, I would give my place and life for them if it would help. I think they are wasting their time if these overseers are as heartless as that..................That is from a professing lady I correspond with who is one of the many 'readers' of the TMB that is not a registered member here. Like I previously posted, these overseers really do not understand the far-reaching impact these stories have on members of their church, and the loss of respect and trust that they are going through when such things are not being handled by them. What is so hard (other than a pride issue maybe?) with scheduling a meeting with alexander and either telling him to take a hike or to resolve the issue to keep the family in the church? Not that hard to do really. Either of them are welcome to contact me if they wish their side of the issue to be known. I've discussed things with other overseers which led to resolutions, and if they need some help with resolving this issue I am willing to help out...... Scott
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 15:36:58 GMT -5
Post by Done4now on Sept 22, 2011 15:36:58 GMT -5
I do the eyeroll when I hear things like "unruly children"
Some of the people that I personally know today who are workers, elders, convention ground owners---were extremely "unruly children" 30 years ago.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 16:17:51 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 16:17:51 GMT -5
.... I do not want to render evil for evil- and I pray that the Lord will help me to be wise. Well, you certainly started off on the wrong foot in that regard with your opening post. Have you asked God why you were asked to not come? What does he say?
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 16:45:50 GMT -5
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Sept 22, 2011 16:45:50 GMT -5
they say that the bathroom trips begin--and go on throughout the meeting as child after child visits the restroom. Our kids never left meeting unless it was a dire emergency. They were to go before meeting, or pretend they were a water balloon. One of the few times one of our kids left meeting was when I sat on his head after giving my testimony. He got a bloody nose that wouldn't quit so he and I had to spend most of the rest of meeting in the bathroom. It bled so much he threw up. I didn't know if we were going to have to go to the emergency room or not. I learned my lesson, I never sat on his head again.
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Sept 22, 2011 16:51:14 GMT -5
Post by sharonw on Sept 22, 2011 16:51:14 GMT -5
When you have spent your life in loving relationships with a group of people, and then they start shunning and ignoring you without giving you a reason..... it seems fairly normal to react that people must 'hate' you to deserve such treatment. After all, the opposite of love is hate, and what is the middle ground on such a feeling/emotion? Personally, I doubt if anyone actually hates her (or alexander), but they probably don't know just how they should act toward her. Since the spiritual leaders (HA!) of the local area churches have decided to ignore this family, and by their actions (and inactions) show people that they don't want to have anything to do with them....... that pretty much lets the church body know that they should likewise follow their lead in how they should treat this family. Of course if this was taking place in most churches, the church elders could be approached to help work out a meeting with all those involved, or they could be counted on to offer guidance and support to those who might be experiencing such issues. Unfortunately, we have read of others who have went through similar situations and the result was that usually the people that were being shunned ended up leaving the church with no resolution to the issues. I seriously do not believe that people such as George and Dennis realize the consequences to the church when such matters are known to the church members. There are far reaching consequences to their actions/inactions and other church members lose trust and respect for those who are in the position of overseer, and even those who are 'regular' workers. Likewise, those who are no longer members and have experienced similar treatment tend to come out with the 'I TOLD YOU SO... THIS IS JUST FURTHER PROOF THAT YOU CAN'T TRUST YOUR OVERSEERS TO CARE FOR THE CHURCH and it validates the experiences that others have shared publicly. It is further 'proof' that the Alberta issue had no spiritual reasons for happening, that there really ARE overseers that are covering up for each other in other matters, that 'regular' workers really have no say in conflict resolution.... and the list goes on Scott As Scott has indicated, such ill will is not unheard of in the 2x2 fellowship. Again I have to believe it is a "brotherhood" not unsimiliar to the Mason's who will stick together in good or evil. And that this spirit of "brotherhood" was in the birthing of the fellowship and ever since......so until some people can find a place to join together to change things(which seems an impossible task) and root out the overseers' mindset and the closed brotherhood, the fellowship stands little chance of really surviving for the good of people...and in accordance as many of have witnessed, the ill will and blatant dictatorship of the overseers is growing in leaps and bounds the past 20 years, so what will it be like in 20 years. The love of God sure seems to be growing dimmer in the fellowship and I'm not saying that any individual in the fellowship does not love God, but it is the collective love of God that is essential in the cohesion of the fellowship. JMO
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Sept 22, 2011 16:54:40 GMT -5
Post by What Hat on Sept 22, 2011 16:54:40 GMT -5
The friends may not hate in this case, but they still stand condemned by their absence of sound moral action. And that kind of absence in extreme cases has led to horrible things, atrocities, wars and other deprivations. In this case it leads to constructive expulsion. Ok. Say those friends come here and read; "She also said that she was upset that everyone (meaning our friends and relatives in the 2x2 system) hate us. And she is correct in that- we are literally despised and hated by our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ in our area at the leading of the overseers." What should be their sound moral action in response to that? If they live in alexander's area, they should get involved. That means calling the overseer, and express indignation that alexander is not being allowed to go to meeting. Perhaps have a meeting of a few concerned elders and older individuals, the overseers and alexander and his wife to see what can be done. Yes I agree that we don't have the whole story here. We know that there are certain expectations that alexander & family is not meeting. Some issues might have to be remedied for him to stay in the meeting, perhaps for other issues accommodation of one kind or another could be made. Definitely, a third party or parties are needed to arbitrate and find some balance. I think that third party should not be a worker or another overseer; it should be one or more of the friends, and should be someone acceptable to both sides. I think this situation dragging on interminably is the worst thing; some kind of closure and clarity is needed.
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Sept 22, 2011 16:57:08 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 16:57:08 GMT -5
I do the eyeroll when I hear things like "unruly children" Some of the people that I personally know today who are workers, elders, convention ground owners---were extremely "unruly children" 30 years ago. know what you mean.... , I would probaly have been considered one of them, 'tho maybe 30 yrs I'm no worker or elder. Seems like every Sunday I was hauled out and getting paddled for not behaving. Someone mentioned about coming in late, and the trips to the bathroom. Both are distracting. I'm not making any assumptions or accusations about Alexander, just talking for myself and also what others have said to me in similar situations. Coming in late during prayer I find particularly distracting, either as someone listening or praying.
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Tears
Sept 22, 2011 17:02:22 GMT -5
Post by What Hat on Sept 22, 2011 17:02:22 GMT -5
When you have spent your life in loving relationships with a group of people, and then they start shunning and ignoring you without giving you a reason..... it seems fairly normal to react that people must 'hate' you to deserve such treatment. After all, the opposite of love is hate, and what is the middle ground on such a feeling/emotion? Personally, I doubt if anyone actually hates her (or alexander), but they probably don't know just how they should act toward her. Since the spiritual leaders (HA!) of the local area churches have decided to ignore this family, and by their actions (and inactions) show people that they don't want to have anything to do with them....... that pretty much lets the church body know that they should likewise follow their lead in how they should treat this family. Of course if this was taking place in most churches, the church elders could be approached to help work out a meeting with all those involved, or they could be counted on to offer guidance and support to those who might be experiencing such issues. Unfortunately, we have read of others who have went through similar situations and the result was that usually the people that were being shunned ended up leaving the church with no resolution to the issues. I seriously do not believe that people such as George and Dennis realize the consequences to the church when such matters are known to the church members. There are far reaching consequences to their actions/inactions and other church members lose trust and respect for those who are in the position of overseer, and even those who are 'regular' workers. Likewise, those who are no longer members and have experienced similar treatment tend to come out with the 'I TOLD YOU SO... THIS IS JUST FURTHER PROOF THAT YOU CAN'T TRUST YOUR OVERSEERS TO CARE FOR THE CHURCH and it validates the experiences that others have shared publicly. It is further 'proof' that the Alberta issue had no spiritual reasons for happening, that there really ARE overseers that are covering up for each other in other matters, that 'regular' workers really have no say in conflict resolution.... and the list goes on Scott As Scott has indicated, such ill will is not unheard of in the 2x2 fellowship. Again I have to believe it is a "brotherhood" not unsimiliar to the Mason's who will stick together in good or evil. And that this spirit of "brotherhood" was in the birthing of the fellowship and ever since......so until some people can find a place to join together to change things(which seems an impossible task) and root out the overseers' mindset and the closed brotherhood, the fellowship stands little chance of really surviving for the good of people...and in accordance as many of have witnessed, the ill will and blatant dictatorship of the overseers is growing in leaps and bounds the past 20 years, so what will it be like in 20 years. The love of God sure seems to be growing dimmer in the fellowship and I'm not saying that any individual in the fellowship does not love God, but it is the collective love of God that is essential in the cohesion of the fellowship. JMO And yet studies show that groups with a fairly strict code are more likely to survive. I posted a study one time that I had found about the issue of 'free riding'. 'Free riding', or taking advantage, is a serious issue in benevolent communities that do not have strict controls. Groups like the Mennonites, friends, and others, seem to have less of an issue with 'free riders'. One would like to think that 'more love' works; but reality seems to indicate otherwise.
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Sept 22, 2011 17:02:56 GMT -5
Post by sharonw on Sept 22, 2011 17:02:56 GMT -5
Fair enough to ask for the indicators. You are asking about how she knows for an "absolute fact" and that's not a fair question. The truth about hatred is that it is never determinable except by indicators as it is typically denied when asked about. Haters rarely come right out and confirm it. There is no upside in it for them. Hatred is almost always played out in the dark. However, there are indicators, and sometimes they are not what is obvious. Someone once said, "you never know who is praying for you, but you can know who isn't". Hatred comes in many forms, one is simply the absence of love. Are there a bunch of people out there who want to do them harm? Not likely. Are there a bunch of people who have backed off? Probably most if not all. No the absence or opposite of love is not hate - it is indifference. Indifference is a long ways from hate. You seem to advocating making an assumption that someone hates you - why - what is the personal benefit or gain in doing that? I don't think there is any gain or benefit in doing that - even if your assumption is right. I think it's a Christian duty to pre-emptively, deliberately, and always assume that no-one hates you. It seems indifferent really is not the opposite of love....love and hate stand at opposite poles in the feelings of mankind....and there ARE degrees of either one between the poles....indifferent would perhaps be the first degree toward the hate pole but definitely coming up negative any way.....the scriptures says this: 1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. And this that Alexander and family are going through is known as a "spiritual killing"......it is a shameful thing to be a party of such people, eh?
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Sept 22, 2011 17:11:18 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 17:11:18 GMT -5
they say that the bathroom trips begin--and go on throughout the meeting as child after child visits the restroom. Our kids never left meeting unless it was a dire emergency. They were to go before meeting, or pretend they were a water balloon. One of the few times one of our kids left meeting was when I sat on his head after giving my testimony. He got a bloody nose that wouldn't quit so he and I had to spend most of the rest of meeting in the bathroom. It bled so much he threw up. I didn't know if we were going to have to go to the emergency room or not. I learned my lesson, I never sat on his head again. Lol! ;D Great (although a bit scary...) story Jesse. I'll bet there were a few who were about to bust a gut over that - until they saw or realized there could have been some serious hurt. Thanks for sharing.
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Sept 22, 2011 17:13:07 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 17:13:07 GMT -5
they say that the bathroom trips begin--and go on throughout the meeting as child after child visits the restroom. Our kids never left meeting unless it was a dire emergency. They were to go before meeting, or pretend they were a water balloon. One of the few times one of our kids left meeting was when I sat on his head after giving my testimony. He got a bloody nose that wouldn't quit so he and I had to spend most of the rest of meeting in the bathroom. It bled so much he threw up. I didn't know if we were going to have to go to the emergency room or not. I learned my lesson, I never sat on his head again. A wise man learns after one lesson~ I learned not to wear long skirts with an elastic waistband after standing up while simultaneously standing on the hem of my skirt. Thankfully, I was wearing a slip that day.
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