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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 21, 2011 17:49:54 GMT -5
If he gave his name, you know the response of the other workers just for him being on here. He was brave enough to come on here now you are asking him to give away his ministry for the sake of the TMB? I am sure his life is more than this board to throw a good part of his life away.
He can learn about our reasons being here just being noels.
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 21, 2011 18:02:23 GMT -5
If he gave his name, you know the response of the other workers just for him being on here. He was brave enough to come on here now you are asking him to give away his ministry for the sake of the TMB? I am sure his life is more than this board to throw a good part of his life away. He can learn about our reasons being here just being noels. You, of course, are exactly correct about that! Isn't it sad? Yes, I'd love for him just to be here "just being noels", under the circumstances mentioned! Edy
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 21, 2011 18:10:12 GMT -5
If he gave his name, you know the response of the other workers just for him being on here. He was brave enough to come on here now you are asking him to give away his ministry for the sake of the TMB? I am sure his life is more than this board to throw a good part of his life away. He can learn about our reasons being here just being noels. Believer I am afraid he would be drummed out of the work were he to post under his real name. I honestly believe he truly believed in the urban myth that we were all bitter exes. I think he may know different now. I want to congradulate him to be brave enough to post. I have PMd him trying to encourage him to stay. I have also apologized if I were reason for his leaving. ken
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 21, 2011 18:22:01 GMT -5
Ken, I will publically let noels know that I'd also like him NOT to leave, but stop the game-playing for some real discourse!
Noels?
Best regards, Edy
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Post by pinky on Apr 21, 2011 18:22:50 GMT -5
I have learned this small amount- Some things I wish to do cannot be done on this board! But glad for the help of others that has enabled me to understand that for pointing me to the correct appproach! thanks! Noels, I'm curious, can you elaborate on the things you wish to do here?
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Post by ScholarGal on Apr 21, 2011 19:07:13 GMT -5
Noels, I echo what others have said here--I don't think you should leave. You don't even need to post your real name. However, I do think you should try to remember that people who post here are real people, just like the real people at your gospel meetings, and just like the real people you know who may have stopped going to meetings. If you wouldn't be willing to say something in person over a cup of tea, think twice before posting it here. If you wouldn't be willing to write something in a paper letter, sign your name and mail it, think twice before posting it here. The internet and message boards like these can appear to offer the prospect of anonymity, but that's really not the case. What you see here is closer to pseudonymity, where your reputation gets connected to the username you use to post. Would you be ashamed if someone connected your username and online reputation to your real name? Many of us have reasons for not posting with our real names, but it's really sad when people post under a pseudonym with the intent of attacking others. If you decide to stay, I hope you can learn to communicate more clearly with people inside and outside of meetings. People in meetings may be hesitant to broach certain topics with workers in their own fields, but they sometimes post questions and concerns here. Professing people reading here have read some of the ugliest things (both true and false) that can be written about workers, and they still attend meetings. If you find that your words upset someone, try to understand why. If you find that people don't understand something you've written, try to make the point more clear. Forums like this are an excellent place to practice writing with greater clarity, as well as pushing yourself to search the scriptures when you put an explanation of your belief in writing. Your words from a convention platform might reach 500-1000 people. Remember that there are people who will do a Google search and visit this message board after they have attended their first few gospel meetings. Your written words here will probably be read by more "outsiders" than you have seen in all of the gospel meetings you have ever attended or preached.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 21, 2011 20:41:10 GMT -5
Quote:Does God 'right a wrong' using uninformed and misinformed people?
God does what God does and neither you nor I are capable of informing him of his will. The bible indicates that God uses all kinds of people, good or bad, for his purposes. Unquote
Reminded me of what God said about Pharoah, that God had put him there as ruler of the Egyptians....and it was God who hardened his heart everytime!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2011 22:13:04 GMT -5
Noels, Who hasn't made a mistake, gotten carried away, or been aggravated? Join the club!
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Post by emy on Apr 21, 2011 22:23:49 GMT -5
Thank you for that post, noels. I had thought to say that my opinion was you would worry less about being found in disfavor with the workers than you would about the worker/poster "pestilence" that Sharon mentioned! I'm glad I was thinking on the right track.
I feel more comfortable with having you post as the "real" you! But thinking of those "grandchildren" -- might they have been some of the contacts you have in your meetings? Or were they simply figments of your imagination?
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 21, 2011 22:49:49 GMT -5
noels, I ask with all due respect (truly), that you consider making an apology to Cherie for your approach to discourse with her and about her website. I think it would go a long, long way in mending things here.
Thanx much! Edy
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Post by ts on Apr 21, 2011 23:04:26 GMT -5
Welcome, noels. Stick around. Let us get to know you for who you are. Pave the way for other workers to post here and be challenged and appreciated. I think you have done a brave thing. Just be yourself and answer things in your own voice as honestly as you know how. This is a good place to get the worker talk knocked right out of you, if that is what you want :-). You will get a different perspective and meet some really nice folks. I have made several friends just being on this board.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 22, 2011 0:49:59 GMT -5
noels, Why don't you and your overseer take this opportunity to honestly, openly, and decently communicate with the friends and workers about your local situation? All that is needed are letters to the meetings or emails to the friends and workers, and opening a thread on TMB. Hoping for the best in all this, quizzer
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 22, 2011 5:44:38 GMT -5
Noels Like has been said we all make mistakes, get angry, flustered but when we can step back and figure out what spirit caused our response then we are the better for it. Our human nature wants us to respond in pride. While the Holy Spirit wants us to be humble and meek and write and speak words of healing and comfort. I try to let the right spirit control but my original nature is still alive and wants its way at times ken ken
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2011 8:33:06 GMT -5
Whether Noel stays or goes matters little. He's not the first nutty fruitcake to post here. Some stick around for years while others come and go. Wow!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 22, 2011 8:57:04 GMT -5
Whether Noel stays or goes matters little. He's not the first nutty fruitcake to post here. Some stick around for years while others come and go. I'd like to beg your pardon for stating "he's not the first nutty fruitcake..." Noels has graciously explained his "defensive" actions and I feel(though am often thought to be wrong) that he/she was not wrong in being defensive, though that defensiveness turned coat on him/her..... But those of us on TMB that's been here for several years know that other workers who have posted as a worker have been shredded to pieces and I know how that feels....and it wasn't always by the exes for the shredding. We;ve lost worker posters because of this "worker -post pestilence"....so Noels is NOT the only one wrong in all of this hoop-de-la and the sooner we all come to grips with our own contributions to the continued farce of any discussions the better the relationship will be Noels, I'm sorry if there was anything which I've posted that came across to you as an attack on you personally, I know how much that can hurt and increase one's own defensiveness.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Apr 22, 2011 10:22:22 GMT -5
Funny reading posts on this thread. I have found more people just in this thread who I know I cannot trust with information. Wishy-washy comes to mind. I'm glad I never shared info with a few and have no intention of ever doing so. Since some of you want him gone, why don't you stick to your guns? Make up your mind. Some posts were so full of condemnation, if I were Noels, I wouldn't have bothered with any explanations. I would have put a few on ignore and gone on with life. Maybe he has. Sharks.
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Post by someguy on Apr 22, 2011 11:41:24 GMT -5
Funny reading posts on this thread. I have found more people just in this thread who I know I cannot trust with information. Wishy-washy comes to mind. I'm glad I never shared info with a few and have no intention of ever doing so. Since some of you want him gone, why don't you stick to your guns? Make up your mind. Some posts were so full of condemnation, if I were Noels, I wouldn't have bothered with any explanations. I would have put a few on ignore and gone on with life. Maybe he has. Sharks. yuk yuk I agree eyedeetentee. Now people are falling all over themselves to get Noels to stay once they discovered he is a worker. Sure he made mistakes in his posts, but if he made people that upset why stay? Further to that point, why would other workers come on here? It is true on line forums function different that anything workers are used to, but how do we plan on ever making this a place they would want to post on or be a part of?
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Post by sharonw on Apr 22, 2011 13:08:09 GMT -5
Funny reading posts on this thread. I have found more people just in this thread who I know I cannot trust with information. Wishy-washy comes to mind. I'm glad I never shared info with a few and have no intention of ever doing so. Since some of you want him gone, why don't you stick to your guns? Make up your mind. Some posts were so full of condemnation, if I were Noels, I wouldn't have bothered with any explanations. I would have put a few on ignore and gone on with life. Maybe he has. Sharks. yuk yuk I agree eyedeetentee. Now people are falling all over themselves to get Noels to stay once they discovered he is a worker. Sure he made mistakes in his posts, but if he made people that upset why stay? Further to that point, why would other workers come on here? It is true on line forums function different that anything workers are used to, but how do we plan on ever making this a place they would want to post on or be a part of? As one of the posters that was slightly attacked by our guest, of course there would have been some defensive issues raised...but that was one of the first postings that I read of Noels....since that time, I've seen him/her attacked much like I was attacked when I first came to TMB....I have no notion why that has to be or is the idea IF the new poster can withstand the heat then their worthy to post? I've had to wonder. Yes Noels got defensive and carried away, but so have others involved with this particular poster in answering etc. I want Noels to know that what happened is not totally unusual but at the same time it kind of pushes the limits of recognition on both sides of the posting and thus we have and do get to know one another. I don't find people speaking out of both sides of their mouths as much as perhaps going around the bush trying to work an apology into it after the beans were spilled...we all are guilty, none spared on either side of the issue.
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Post by ts on Apr 22, 2011 17:35:24 GMT -5
Hey noels, I don't think there is a person here who thinks ALL the workers and friends are involved in a cover up. I also do not think there is a person here who does not believe that there have been cover ups. (there might be a couple). I think what everyone is interested in is open and clear information on situations and how these situations are handled.
An above poster recommended you and your overseer posting on a thread. That would be monumental. Start a worker website where workers can post and hear hear what the friends have to say to them. Let the workers anonymously say which overseers they do not trust and why. I have had a worker express to me his distrust of an overseer. That is refreshing considering that the overseer has proven over and over to not be trust worthy and wise.
By the way, I see everyone encouraging "noels" to stay around now that he has said he is a worker. Actually, they are encouraging the REAL person to stay around and not the false persona of noels.
I hope that more workers can post here and "take the heat". I mean, isn't it a joy to suffer persecution for righteousness' sake? If it isn't righteousness that they are preaching or upholding, here is a good place to have that searched out. If they are, here is a good chance to proclaim it in front of some of your most ardent supporters. There are many people reading here who do not know the meeting doctrine. If it is true, the Lord will draw them to read here and they can look up the workers in their area easily. This is sort of the internet version of leaving a card on the door.
Noels, do you feel that you have understood anything differently since coming here to tmb? Do you feel your understanding of scriptures has deepened? Has your understanding of scriptures changed? If so, in what way?
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Post by sharonw on Apr 22, 2011 18:26:17 GMT -5
Noels, as on the thread that Scott has pulled from several pages back up so that about 3 workers can see how what was handled and the resulting end thereof.
Scott has also given the truth in the matter when he says that when the workers have gotten up and did something constructive with the criminal issues with a perpatrator that the issue dies down without rancor among the innies and outies and those particular workers keep the respect of their church members.
However he also states that there are some examples of where the immoral and criminal elements hidden and passed from one field to another, from one state to another for decades and that is where the workers lost respect and yes, it has tainted the whole workership for many of us and we've felt it best to remove our support from the workership because of those undealt with issues.
I, myself, was literally grieved beyond what I could handle when I discovered that 3 of the overseers whom I had loved and respected for many many years were the very ones who dealt dirty with the victims and their significant others and kept repeatedly restoring the workers who were involved in criminal activities and immoral activities. I still hurt very much because of that fact and I don't think I will EVER trust workers or any other church again because of that experience.
Then even after one criminal long past judical and legal issues was let out of the work with reccommendation for particular meeting and convs. attendances and that person has broke all of those reccommended rules plus has forced himself into the presence of some of us within our home mtgs. without warning or without due warning.
That does not go down the pipe of spiritual love at all.....that is selfishness to the ultimate level and evidence of NO repentance. I don't have to stand for that...I moved myself on and out!
This is written so you can see where perhaps some of us come up with "worker generalizations" because of the fact some of the workers whom some of us have had deep love and respect for, proved unworthy and thus tainted the workership in general for us.
Sorry if that hurts, but just remember how hurt we've felt ourselves when that has happened and sad enough it keeps happening,.
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Post by ts on Apr 23, 2011 15:21:05 GMT -5
Hey Noels, don't feel too special about being attacked because you are a worker. Everyone gets that same treatment here. Even the victims of worker abuse get more abuse here. Nothing is sacred when you step foot into this open arena.
The good news is that you get everyone's honest opinions and thoughts about your beliefs here. You might be surprised how many of your own congregants across the world do not agree with the worker doctrine, have valid opinions yet still come to the meetings either frustrated or apathetic. I do not think you want false doctrine in the work(which exists) and I do not think you really want a group of yes men to support you(which exists).
Don't you think a few boat rockers are a good thing if the boat they are rocking is ridding the work of false doctrine an immoral leaders? Without those two items in the meetings, this board would not exist.
Let's work towards making this boar obsolete. Get more workers on board who have the humility to listen to the "bitter" and the "dissenters" instead of labeling and ridiculing them. Get some workers on board who have the guts to stand up to those supposedly very few leaders who are causing all the trouble.
You have taken a noble step, noels. I hope you have a lot of friends who share your passion for truth. Bring them along. All it takes is the majority of truthers speaking against the minority of falsers.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 23, 2011 18:09:49 GMT -5
TS, I'm hoping it doesn't go too fast and furious for Noels...it can really spin one around and around when that happens and it does happen....I'd think to keep him/her feeling half way okay with the forum might do as much good....and I do agree that the "truth" will hurt some but then hopefully it won't become personal for him/her!
BTW, I cringe when Noels crosses Rational...but then Noels may be just the man/woman to handle Rational!
That's a joke, Noels and Rational!
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Post by ts on Apr 23, 2011 18:38:45 GMT -5
TS, I'm hoping it doesn't go too fast and furious for Noels...it can really spin one around and around when that happens and it does happen....I'd think to keep him/her feeling half way okay with the forum might do as much good....and I do agree that the "truth" will hurt some but then hopefully it won't become personal for him/her! BTW, I cringe when Noels crosses Rational...but then Noels may be just the man/woman to handle Rational! That's a joke, Noels and Rational! I agree, sharon. I do think that the honest workers like noels have held back far too much for far too long. the dishonest workers have intimidated and bullied everyone for far too long. It just takes some weak ones standing up to them and God helping them to take down all the dishonesty in the system. That is what we preach. That is what we read in the scriptures. I am encouraging noels and the rest of the honest ones to stand up and not be fearful of losing place or reputation. "No reputation" is a good hymn for us to sing now. Sacrifice all....even our place in the work. If we save our lives, we will lose them.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 23, 2011 22:17:58 GMT -5
Noels, I must say that I do respect you for trying. I’m a strong believer in the power of asking. Many things are accomplished simply because someone asked. On the other hand, if the answer is “no,” at least you tried. Then it’s time to move on down the road and try another route. Looks like you’ve figured this out – for you say you have moved on and are trying something different. When I was in the early stages of writing my book, I considered who would read it. I knew the ex-2x2s would; and also that many would who were questioning. Would the F&Ws read and recommend it? Was there a way I could write it so they would? I “consulted” with others. Eventually, I was convinced that 99% of the Workers would not recommend it—no matter how it was written. The simple reason was because the author (me) is an ex-2x2. So, I proceeded to write my book as I felt God was leading me to write it. Noels, you’re absolutely right. It’s not a balanced book or website. It’s an attempt to put some balance out there where none has been. For years, the workers have presented the pro-side, without open opposition or counter intelligence/information. Enter the internet and the Age of Information. My book and the TTT website present “the other side.” Or as Paul Harvey says, “The rest of the story.” The side that wasn’t heard or made publiHONKYTONK-HOEDOWN-WHOOPTYDOOil this Age. You and other workers are like salespeople – persuading/selling admission to a private club, and only presenting the reasons outsiders should join your club; and also misrepresenting details and omitting some of the requirements and beliefs. Information that is critical to making an informed decision is withheld and negatives are rarely discussed. On the other hand, TTT is like a doctor who tells the adverse side effects his patient might encounter should he take the Drs. recommendation. TTT fills in the critical information that anyone ever associated with the F&W fellowship should have known and was entitled to know. Noels wrote: There is already a website (The Truth Archive) that contains solely documents of workers; notes of conventions, funerals, meetings, etc. with no commentary. Why not donate all your “wonderful accounts” to TA? LINK: www.trutharchive.net/NOTE: I have no ties to this website. I do recommend it, and provide a link to it on TTT. Some of these “wonderful accounts” are already on TTT – check out the pioneering section. There are many stories of when the workers first went to various countries. Stories about when various friends first heard workers: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_pioneering/What about all the other missionaries sponsored by other churches in the world who have "wonderful accounts" where they brought salvation to seeking souls? Do you recommend that I include them on TTT also? Is it possible that your anger comes from some potential converts googling your church and finding TTT and other similar websites? And now, you’re desperately looking for ways to accomplish “damage control?” So you hit on the idea of having TTT modified so that it shows both sides; so it’s neutralized and at the minimum “balanced.” Even if that were done, it would not solve the workers problems with people finding information on the internet. There are other websites out there that google turns up and more can easily be created; some are in the planning stages, some have been started and will soon go on line. I wouldn’t be surprised if the workers start receiving more and more questions due to the common practice of people googling anything new or unknown for more information. ..even the elderly and adolescents do it. I am hearing from more and more outsiders who have been invited to meetings, who googled the church and write to ask me questions. It’s time the workers deal with their problems IN HOUSE. Perhaps a better solution would be for your church to put up their own website. I suggest the workers form a “committee” (similar to the one that worked on the most recent hymnbook edition for over a year) and create the F&Ws own pro-truth website telling all about your church history, beliefs and a mission statement. Better yet, just make it your life’s mission to clean up your club. Get IT balanced. Come clean with what the club is all about BEFORE anyone joins it; and BEFORE the workers offer for the work and give up everything they have and then find out it didn’t really start on the shores of Galilee. Provide FULL DISCLOSURE. Then it wouldn’t matter what was on any website – the information would already be public. Noels wrote: Many both on and off this board HAVE given me their thoughts, suggestions and opinions. I invited them to do so not so long ago on TMB in a thread about How Could TTT be Improved. I have or will be using some of their suggestions. Also, one kind professing man critiqued numerous articles on TTT for me, in an effort to make them less offensive to 2x2s, and I used almost all of his suggestions. Another TMBer edited my book for me, and pointed out numerous grammatical and typographical errors. So you see, I do give serious consideration to constructive criticism about my work. Noels wrote: Dream on. Frankly, it does not matter to me if my book or TTT is meaningful or accommodating to you or to other workers. I do not value your respect or admiration or covet your recommendation. You’ll have to get your “thrills” somewhere else… Now, let me tell you some things that would THRILL me. If the workers would set the women and children free of the heavy burdens they force upon them. Clean up your own house and tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God. Even the world requires that. After all, you call yourselves “the truth.” Come clean and honestly scripturaly and before God clean up the sexual improprieties in the fellowship. Be held accountable to a zero CSA tolerance and obey the law—all of the laws, as Jesus commanded. Let the workers stand back and let the Holy Spirit rule His people. How about starting with this: All the sister workers at a large convention cut their hair, wear modern becoming hairstyles, apply some makeup and jewelry and speak from the platform wearing slacks. Or perhaps all the elder’s wives in a large city; or all the women in a state did so on the same Sunday. “Let My People GO.” Noels wrote Thank you for your limited apology. I often pray that God will cause my enemies to become my friends, and some have. As for me and my work, I will serve my Lord in the way He leads me. Cherie PS. Remember noels, if the workers were truly following in the footsteps of the apostles, then there would be no need for the TTT website or my book. Like you, I have better things to spend my time on than "accommodating the likes of you." Currently, I am busy writing a chapter in my book about the Alberta purging by Willis Propp.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 23, 2011 23:28:02 GMT -5
Noels, something else that would thrill me and gain my respect and admiration would be for the workers to compose an apology something like this one:
Forgive Us Our Trespasses By Joseph Tkach AS REGULAR READERS of this magazine know, the Worldwide Church of God, sponsor of The Plain Truth, has changed its position on numerous long-held beliefs and practices during the past few years.
At the heart of those changes has been an acceptance that salvation is by grace through faith. While this was preached in the past, it was always coupled with the message that God owes us a reward for our works that build holy, righteous character.
For decades we regarded scrupulous adherence to the law as the basis of our righteousness. We attempted to relate to God through old covenant rules and regulations in our fervent desire to please him.
In his mercy, God has shown us that old covenant obligations do not apply to Christians who are under the new covenant. He has led us into the riches of his grace and a renewed relationship with Jesus Christ. He has opened our hearts and minds to the joy of his salvation. The Scriptures speak to us with fresh meaning, and we rejoice daily in the personal relationship we have with our Lord and Savior.
At the same time, we are acutely aware of the heavy legacy of our past.
The Holy Spirit is working today in the body of Christ to heal historic wounds and restore good relations between offenders and offended. It is my painful responsibility to acknowledge that the Worldwide Church of God has been among the offenders.
Our flawed doctrinal understanding clouded the plain gospel of Jesus Christ and led to a variety of wrong conclusions and unscriptural practices. We have much to repent of and apologize for.
We were judgmental and self-righteous — condemning other Christians, calling them "so-called Christians" and labeling them "deceived" and "instruments of Satan."
We imposed on our members a works-oriented approach to Christian living. We required adherence to burdensome regulations of the Old Testament code. We exercised a strongly legalistic approach to church government.
Our former old covenant approach fostered attitudes of exclusivism and superiority rather than the new covenant teaching of brotherhood and unity.
We overemphasized predictive prophecy and prophetic speculation, minimizing the true gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ.
These teachings and practices are a source of supreme regret. We are painfully mindful of the heartache and suffering that has resulted from them.
We've-been wrong. There was never an intent to mislead anyone. We were so focused on what we believed we were doing for God that we didn't recognize the spiritual path we were on. Intended or not, that path was not the biblical one.
As we look back, we ask ourselves how we could have been so wrong. Our hearts go out to all whom our teachings have misled in the Scriptures. We don't minimize your spiritual disorientation and confusion. We earnestly desire your understanding and forgiveness. We recognize that the depth of alienation can make reconciliation difficult. On the human level, reconciliation is often a long and difficult process over time. Yet we pray daily for it, realizing that the healing ministry of Christ can close even the deepest wounds. We make no attempt to cover up the doctrinal and scriptural errors of our past. It is not our intention to merely paper over the cracks. We are looking our history squarely in the face and confronting the faults and sins we find. They will always remain a part of our history, serving as a perpetual reminder of the dangers of legalism, But we cannot live in the past. We must rise above our past. We must move on. We say, with the apostle Paul:
"Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:13-14).
We have set our minds and hearts on Jesus Christ and trust explicitly in him. I have never been more thrilled about the state of our fellowship! We are pooling our energies and moving forward in preaching the gospel worldwide and equipping our local congregations to be healthy examples of the body of Christ. We are using the spiritual gifts we have been given and capitalizing on the intense dedication to Jesus Christ—now rightly channeled—which has long characterized our church.
So we stand today at the foot of the cross —the ultimate symbol of all reconciliation. It is the common ground on which estranged and alienated parties can meet. As Christians, we all identify with the suffering that took place there, and we hope that identification will bring us together.
We desire to meet there with anyone we may have injured. It is only by the blood of the Lamb and the power of the Spirit that we can put the hurts of the past behind us and move forward toward our common goal. I have expressed these sentiments in sermons and letters in recent months, but I wanted to restate them for our Plain Truth readers.
So to all members, former members, co-workers and others—all who have been casualties of our past sins and mistakes of doctrine —I extend my sincerest heartfelt apologies. And I invite you to join us in proclaiming the true gospel of Jesus Christ around the world— as even now God is blessing us with renewed growth and vigor in his service.
Joseph Tkach, President
Published in the March/April 1996 Plain Truth
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Post by ru on Apr 24, 2011 0:26:51 GMT -5
Cherie, do you think they should apology for following Jesus New Testament apostolic ministry and fellowship?
Ten years ago when you began your TTT website why didn't you mention that William Irvine's experiment was Jesus New Testament apostolic faith ministry and fellowship? Are the F&W copying the New Testament ministry and fellowhip, Nathan? NT fellowship had: - Apostles that did and could marry. - Elders that were compensated for their work. I know you have responses to those two things, but they never really prove that those two things are not true. And anything you post that says "there have always been..." is just garbage. Irvine's "admission" to an experiment is most likely "sour grapes". he didn;t have the say and they (the workers at that time) might have made some changes, so he called it an experiment, just an attempt at destroying any credibility of the church (at least in his mind). Hmmm...has any of this been stated before? Nathan, is there really a more personal reason that you feel and need to believe that the workers' ministry is the one true ministry?
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Post by eyedeetentee on Apr 24, 2011 0:37:02 GMT -5
Maybe the apostles don't and can't marry, but some of the elders get compensated. Some have extra-marital affairs; some accept handouts from overseers; some do all kinds of things for compensation for their 'work'.
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Post by ru on Apr 24, 2011 1:02:32 GMT -5
~~ Greg, I would like Cherie to answer my question if you don't mind. [/color] [/quote] I don't mind. She will reply if she cares to. Anyone can reply to your posts, Nathan. That does not stop others from replying either. The apostolic ministry is a sent ministry (missions) to where Jesus had not been named or known before....but you know that. Nathan, you know the workers' ministry and other similar ministries (maybe two?) do not copy the NT ministry. And yet you persist on your (wanna believe) belief.
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