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Post by Maud on Jan 12, 2007 6:43:10 GMT -5
On a recent trip to the states I could not help but notice, even among the friends, that obesity is a real issue.
How should this be viewed in Christian circles - do we not have a responsibility to eat in moderation - especially noticable among the females.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jan 12, 2007 6:56:21 GMT -5
Perhaps an obese person would be a vessel of dishonor onto the temple.
Heard just yesterday that the "wiring" in the mind of a drug addict is similar to that of a food addict. The off switch is disconnected/broken. Both need to stop taking in the bad stuff. Not all medication/drugs are bad. Not all food is bad. And as one person said "Show me someone over weight that would contend "I eat too much brocolli."!!"
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Post by Maud on Jan 12, 2007 7:16:10 GMT -5
I accept with some obese people it is a medical issue as such. I know others claim to be 'big boned'.
I feel however that mostly, obese people just eat too much and tend to 'dodge' the salad bar.
Just as an alcoholic needs to stay off the booze, so an obese individual needs to watch what they eat.
Is it right in the eyes of God that so many are starving in third world countries whilst westerners are scoffing down burgers and cakes like they are going out of fashion...
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Post by gregleepluggedin on Jan 12, 2007 7:32:31 GMT -5
Seventh Day Adventists (the hearty/hardy ones) eat a fruit, veggie, grain, and lentil diet - no meat and no dairy.
National Geographic had a report that SDA's live 7-10 years longer than their country counterparts. And a claim is "not only does the diet add years to our life, but life to our years!" (paraphrased).
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Post by food vs alcohol on Jan 12, 2007 7:47:27 GMT -5
It it easier to treat Alcoholism than it is to treat Overeating. The Alcoholic does not need any alcohol to live, whereas the Overeater still needs to continue to eat. Complete abstinence is simpler to implement than responsible self-regulation.
When I was growing up in the 2x2 sect, I learned that many things were simply taboo, rather than "all things in moderation". My personal belief is that a certain amount of obesity is due to sexual frustration. Eating can be viewed by some as an acceptable substitute to other physical gratification.
I believe that the "dying to self" mentality is applied to sex (appearing sexy as well as the act itself) and alcohol indulgence more than it is applied to gluttony, at least here in The States. I think that this is why some folks (B&Rs) have a difficult time establishing a balance in their lives, whether they choose to remain in the sect as adults or to leave.
The Friends are expected to give up so much in life; a blind eye is turned to the Overeater. Eating is the one physical pleasure that is allowed and indulged in by the Leadership.
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Post by zdbx on Jan 12, 2007 9:33:17 GMT -5
You are drawing conclusions from what you see and what you think.........and really don't have enough information to make any conclusion, nor any responsibility to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2007 10:23:48 GMT -5
In my case, pain medication caused me to balloon up in weight over 100 lbs. It took a long time to discover that it was the cause though. Once off that particular medication I was able to loose nearly the entire 100 lbs. There were those who poked fun at me, accused me of gluttony (never once did I vomit food merely to be able to eat more!) and even worse. Because of my weight, I had to just quietly endure those very unchristian comments made by people apparently believing themselves to be superior.
Indeed, diet, body chemistry, genes, and many other factors go into this matter of excessive weight besides gluttony. Once having faced the problem, and the effort it took to remove much of it...(still want to remove more!!!) I've learned the hard way that it is folly to oversimplify by blanket condemnation of people's overweight condition as merely gluttony.
Dennis
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2007 10:47:57 GMT -5
There are also environmental causes for such diseases which often do not include controllable conditions for the affected. A case in point is that QA is a proven diabetes pre-courser (the highest incidence of type two diabetes is in the Vietnamese, and veterans exposed to the chemical.) Obesity takes a second seat to that chemical. Possibly, maybe even likely there are other factors for the aforementioned diseases which have not been discovered as yet.
It is simply good not to stereotype any human condition. I've watched my wife of over three decades struggle with weight as did her mother. I've also watched how people treat her for being overweight. To deny it as being "genetic" in origin when a complete environment and diet change occurred when my wife moved from Sweden to the USA is way tooo narrow or closed minded to my way of thinking. For instance, a low or lower metabolism is indeed genetic, and is a common factor in many people's weight gain.
When I spent 40 days in the hospital due to being struck as a pedestrian by an uninsured drunken driver, and the subsequent immobility from residual physical injury surely reduced my metabolism from being one of the highest. If you are not cursed with a lower or lowered metabolism, then count your blessings, and hold your tongue! Grin!!!
Dennis
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Post by webster on Jan 12, 2007 10:55:19 GMT -5
Maud & others:
I've had much the same thought:
"Don't smoke, don't drink, don't wear makeup b/c all these dishonour the 'temple' but don't concern yourself when siding up to the buffet table for a second serving at a carbohydrate loaded potluck! Being fat doesn't dishonour the 'temple'."Seems a bit topsy turvy, doesn't it?
I must jump on my soap box because health and nutrition is one of my passions and I'm about 40 lbs overweight.
I have not met one overweight person who chooses to be so and/or loves being overweight. Yes, that obese friend may make poor food choices but we have been manipulated and lied to by the food giants for so long (and intentionally made addicted to bad foods by the food giants as well) that most folks are just plain confused about what is good nutrition and what is bad.
Do you know that most obese folks are actually malnourished?
Do you know that aspartame, nutri-sweet, and just about every other artificial sweetner on the market is POISON to the body and does terrible harm?
Do you know that for every 8 oz cup of coffee (or any caffienated drink) one needs to drink twice the amount of water because caffeine dehydrates?
Do you know that the food giants, Nabisco, General Mills, etc. lie to us every second of every day by attempting to convince us that their new product on the market is healthy or will promote weight loss or.......
Remember the carb craze in the 80's where simple carbs were promoted from newstands, from TV's, from doctors and dieticians as being the healthy way to eat? Do you know what eating more carbs/less protein did to the bodies of those who embraced that wisdom?
So, obesity isn't all about eating too much. It's about trusting our health to doctors, friends, the media without doing some behind the scenes investigating on our own, educating ourselves about how the body works.
It is alarming to see an obese person order an supersized meal when he would be better off eating a good source of protein and a plate of veggies. But the obese person eats that kind of food because the food giants have intentionally addicted him to their food by certain ingredients.
I spent 3 weeks in Europe and noted how, in many cities, folks walked, biked and took mass transit because they do not own cars. In Italy, I saw women bicycling home from market with baguettes sticking out of the bicycle basket!
Most of us do not/can not ( I live out in the country with no bus service) choose that kind of lifestyle here in the states and it would behoove us to.
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Post by ali on Jan 12, 2007 10:56:21 GMT -5
Dennis....Point taken, fair enough. Like anything... the more you look at it, the less black and white it becomes. It is a touchy subject and one that people don't like to approach for fear of coming across as judgemental....but I do think it's good for people(including myself) to be reminded to take an active not passive role in preventing and treating illness.
Now I'm really feeling guilty....haven't exercised hard in quite a while!!!
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Post by webster on Jan 12, 2007 11:27:32 GMT -5
'a complete environment and diet change occurred when my wife moved from Sweden to the USA '
Denis: it has been proven that when folks begin eating differently than what they are culturally/demographically accustomed to, changes in the body occur.
Take an indigenous eskimo from the arctic region where he eats mainly fish and blubber and put him in mexico where he'll feast on lots of carbs and he'll begin having health related problems.
I don't know how Swedes eat, compared to N American fare, but perhaps it would help your wife to eat like she ate as a child in Sweden.
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Post by Maud on Jan 12, 2007 11:57:50 GMT -5
Look, I did not mean to cause any offence.
I just feel that this subject has been taboo for too long and we need to bring this more into the open and not feel touchy.
We all have our own issues to deal with and let's not forget that.
I will however reiterate that although there are exceptions to all things, the 'majority' of obesity in the western world is a result of greed.
Just as some people own 3 cars when they only need 1, there are too many folks who eat half a dozen doughnuts when they don't need any!
I notice that in the USA that the really massive people have to pay for 2 tickets on an aircraft (I think that's correct?)- that is a good policy that should be brought in worldwide unless a doctors note can be produced to justify weight!
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Post by effort on Jan 12, 2007 12:01:42 GMT -5
While there are certainly medical and genetic conditions that lead to some people being overweight, most overweight people have nothing to blame but poor food choices and lack of exercise.
Even the most educated folks in the United States are mainly ignorant when it comes to nutrition. And most Americans do not get regular exericse.
It is an epidemic.
It amazes me how many people have their own health near the bottom of their priority list (even if it is subconscious)!
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Post by ali on Jan 12, 2007 12:18:07 GMT -5
It's a good thread Maud....don't worry about it. I think most here are in favor of freedom of speech. Opinions and feelings should be expressed. That's how we learn and grow.
Re. weight gain.. it's such a battle. FWIW, I have found the following helpful..
-lots of water and avoid juice, pop. -healthy soups or salads before main meal -smaller plates/bowls -variety of exercise and when trying to lose-35 min of cardio 4-5x/week (sweating mandatory) -strength train b/c muscle mass increases metabolism -food diary -weigh AND measure yourself reflects true loss/gain -3 fruit and 4 veggie servings/day -whole wheat carbs -keep meat servings the size of your palm
(I've got 10-15 to lose, so I'd better get off my butt/computer and go!)
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Post by wd3542x on Jan 12, 2007 13:21:00 GMT -5
quote, "Just as some people own 3 cars when they only need 1"
same point-who are you to tell me how many cars I should or should not own?
Do you know how many of my family go to college with different schedules?
Do you know how many people live in my house?
Do you know we are a safe house and have 2 women with children staying with us until safe housing can be found? (they each have a car)
Do you know if we have a car for a young man who is deployed in the military.
Do you know our employer supplies a car to each of us (husband/wife) in addition to the 1 car we own and the 1 car that belongs to the person that rents our basement apartment?
You driving by-seeing a bunch of cars in my yard might think thus and thus..........and you again have made judgments where you have no business. You do not know the facts, you do not know anything of the person.
AND unless you've had the shoes on-you do NOT know what it is like to not be able to loose weight, stop smoking, stay straight, not be depressed.
Your attitude is like those to whom Jesus spoke-you who are without sin-cast the first stone.
Maybe your "sin" isn't on the outside. Your (hypothetically, not specific) sin is child porn, or stealing from your company but oh, you look good, nice, trim, well dressed, manicured, 1 plate of food at the buffet. Oh, and you only own 1 car ..........full of dead man's bones.
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Post by another lurker on Jan 12, 2007 13:21:39 GMT -5
maud, first off - do us all a favor and go back to wherever you came from - the only problem/difference with overweight people is that their "problem" is clearly visible to others, who for some ludicrous reason think it is any of their business. from the very fact that you brought up this issue and are so obviously recently "enlightened", i have no doubt you have way bigger problems than 99% of people you consider to be gluttons. the most obvious sign of somebody with serious personal issues is when they love to obsess over other peoples' problems
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Post by las logged out on Jan 12, 2007 13:35:12 GMT -5
I don't think it's a big enough deal to fuss over people profess at differant times of there lives eh? In Christ we are accepted regardless! Thats my take on it!
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Post by star on Jan 12, 2007 13:44:26 GMT -5
Oh Webster!
I have not met one overweight person who chooses to be so and/or loves being overweight. Yes, that obese friend may make poor food choices but we have been manipulated and lied to by the food giants for so long (and intentionally made addicted to bad foods by the food giants as well) that most folks are just plain confused about what is good nutrition and what is bad.
I am overweight and choose to be by the both the types and quantities of food I eat. I could cut back and exercise more but I choose not to do so.
Do you know that aspartame, nutri-sweet, and just about every other artificial sweetner on the market is POISON to the body and does terrible harm? Well, you only named one and you will need to define poison. For the vast majority of the population (exception those who suffer from phenylketonuria) what is the terrible harm from aspartame?
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has investigated claims of ill effects since 1982 and maintains that there is no reasonable evidence of possible public health harm and no consistent or unique patterns of symptoms reported with respect to aspartame that can be causally linked to its use.
Do you know that for every 8 oz cup of coffee (or any caffienated drink) one needs to drink twice the amount of water because caffeine dehydrates?
Yet so does cranberry juice and that is touted as a health drink. Caffeine in coffee, while exhibiting some diuretic effects, could hardly e called a health problem (Hey- stay away from my morning drug of choice!).
Do you know that the food giants, Nabisco, General Mills, etc. lie to us every second of every day by attempting to convince us that their new product on the market is healthy or will promote weight loss or....... Lie or distort the truth? It's called marketing. Car manufactures do it. Clothing, shoes, hair loss tonics, etc. Will I really be able to date more women if I use XYZ Toothpaste (Well using anything would be a step up!)? Remember the carb craze in the 80's where simple carbs were promoted from newstands, from TV's, from doctors and dieticians as being the healthy way to eat? Do you know what eating more carbs/less protein did to the bodies of those who embraced that wisdom?
These things come and go. Over and over. We are just getting off the high protein/fat diet to return to carbs.
Eat fewer calories than you burn off and you will lose weight. Eat more calories and you will gain weight. A very simple formula.
So, obesity isn't all about eating too much. It's about trusting our health to doctors, friends, the media without doing some behind the scenes investigating on our own, educating ourselves about how the body works.
Well if you eat fewer calories than you need you will not stay obese for long.
It is alarming to see an obese person order an supersized meal when he would be better off eating a good source of protein and a plate of veggies. But the obese person eats that kind of food because the food giants have intentionally addicted him to their food by certain ingredients.
What are these addictive additives?
I spent 3 weeks in Europe and noted how, in many cities, folks walked, biked and took mass transit because they do not own cars. And they eat less.
In Italy, I saw women bicycling home from market with baguettes sticking out of the bicycle basket!
In Italy I'll bet it was a filoncino!
Most of us do not/can not ( I live out in the country with no bus service) choose that kind of lifestyle here in the states and it would behoove us to.
But we could eat less and exercise a little more!
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Post by survivors on Jan 12, 2007 13:47:58 GMT -5
We have inhierited the genetic make-up from a long line of survivors.
In regions that underwent a yearly shortage of food, individuals that were able to store in their bodies were more likely to reach the age to reproduce. Now we are no longer faced with the yearly shortage. The natural ability to store is now working against us. Our current circumstance may favor those who have the natural ability to burn off any excess.
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Post by Maud on Jan 12, 2007 13:53:26 GMT -5
WD3542x and Another Lurker
A bit touchy, eh?
Not capable of intelligent debate?
I never criticised the issue of owning 3 cars - I was emphasising a point about the difference between what we need and what we actually have!
Grow up the pair of you....read the text again and understand the context of what is being said..
I am not by any stretch suggesting obesity/ gluttony is the only or the be all and end all of sin- I am simply suggesting it is another issue that is there to be addressed. Everyone is so happy to debate homosexuality, church structure, movies, workers, scandal etc....well obesity is just another issue of importance.
Next time you are cramming 6 doughnuts into your gob, washed down with a litre of fizz, spare a thought for the poor kids in Africa who would be grateful to lick the crumbs up!!
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Post by I remember on Jan 12, 2007 14:19:36 GMT -5
I remember growing up, we were told to clean up our plate because of the "poor kids in Africa". I was always thin growing up. I was 5' 10" at 19 years old and 120 pounds when drafted. Little did I know, had I not eaten breakfast the morning of my induction physical, I would have been under weight. I was married at 23 and still weighed in at 120 pounds. Now at 60, the scale shows 180. Yes, 160 would be a much better weight. Yes, the food that put on those extra pounds, I wish I could provide to the folks in need. I'm not sure of a proper way to make that happen. I really don't expect sending the workers to those areas will be of much help in that area.
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Weight Weight dont tell me
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Post by Weight Weight dont tell me on Jan 12, 2007 14:32:06 GMT -5
A bit touchy, eh?
Not capable of intelligent debate?
I never criticized the issue of owning 3 cars - I was emphasizing a point about the difference between what we need and what we actually have!
Grow up the pair of you....read the text again and understand the context of what is being said..[/i][/color]
Got it, Maud, you say this is just an innocent observation and then wham! Insult everyone for all kinds of behaviors. Bit touchy yourself.
IMO, the Friends tend to be overweight because eating and food are acceptable indulgences and entertainment. Sings, potlucks, worker visits, meals, everything converges (or used to, no idea what happens now), around eating and the table. Even the famous "Special Eating Rounds".
The philosophy of exercise was NOT promoted in my day. Sports were discouraged, (along with other things), and thinking of the body as a "temple" was a worldly, vain thought.
Praying for health was NOT done. It was OK to pray for "the sick", though.
It appears that today, there is more awareness regarding health being integrated with one's relationship to God.
Those who weighed in on the nutritional status of our food supply are also valid. Genetically modified grains are in most everything we eat, and MSG is surreptitiously added to packaged foods that trigger hunger in our brains sooner than necessary. Now, we have cloned meat being added to the food chain. We do not know the consequences of tampering with our food chain. Our bodies are both tough and delicate works of art.
Check it, Maud. Your "innocent" observation had a mean streak in it.
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Post by Maud on Jan 12, 2007 14:51:30 GMT -5
OK the remark about 6 doughnuts was mean - point taken and apology offered.
Beyond that, my message is not mean, I am raising a topic that needs addressing and that topic is gluttony!
It is never spoken about - even at conventions I never heard it touched and yet Christians should central to the concept of sharing and not being greedy!
Obesity, in many cases, is a by product of greed and gluttony. Women especially need to be careful with the old calories - I remember being in one country where the professing ladies sat around all day eating cakes and shortbread whilst the guys were out at work - that was a while back I accept but care is needed!
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Post by Mof on Jan 12, 2007 15:20:02 GMT -5
While some of what was said could have been expressed more diplomatically I do agree there is a fundamental problem that we shoudln't shy away from - almost like a good chunk of society can't practice self denial.
the Muslims can fast during Ramadan and by observing my Muslim work colleagues they have the will power to see it through. Perhaps we should follow the practice of fasting promoted in scripture for both spiritual health and natural health reasons. Good start would be to reduce the food portions at convention. Wonder if this was one reason they used to have separate womens and mens tables in the dining sheds at convention.
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Post by effort on Jan 12, 2007 15:30:38 GMT -5
Good start would be to reduce the food portions at convention. I've never observed that portions at convention are that big. Besides, getting to a proportional weight (and staying there) comes from within. It's pretty simple. To lose weight, burn more calories than you consume. To maintain weight, burn the same amount that you consume. Obviously, most people consume more than they burn. We're in a society that can do great things in so many fields of science and technology. Yet the average person cannot seem to manage their own weight. It's ridiculous. We need to spend more time at the gym and less time at the table. Until then, fat-related problems are going to continue to plague us.
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Post by Maud on Jan 12, 2007 15:57:21 GMT -5
I would like to refer back to my earlier post where I used the analogy of 'why have 3 cars when 1 will do'.
Certain individuals took offence and expressed that it was essentially none of my business and that all these things are down to personal choice.
Hmmm...I've been mulling this over and I am not sure how comfortable we ought to be with this stance. This seems to be a selfish view. It is an attitude that is reflected in society more and more. Entire Governments take this approach too, such as the nations who refuse to sign up to the Kyoto Agreement? They have little consideration for the greater good. Greenhouse gasses are one of the causes of the current environmental catastrophe but I guess it's a matter of individual choice eh? Who cares about the planet? Who cares about Africa? Who cares how many fuel guzzling, gas belching vehicles I run? Who cares if I fill my face whilst the Africans drop like flies? Who cares about the innocent Iraq population - standing by, bewildered as the bombs rain down...... Yes...let's just make it a free for all! It never was a fair world..never will be... I have several pies baking in the oven so I'd better dash.....!!
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Post by Margarita on Jan 12, 2007 16:25:50 GMT -5
I confess I am someone who has a battle with my weight. I was sharing my concerns recently with someone at church who said "Why worry about it ? This old body is going back to the dust anyway. that's all it is - dust ". She waddled away, and I am still pondering if the response is a valid one or not
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Post by Mof on Jan 12, 2007 16:27:41 GMT -5
Agree with the environment point - we all have a duty to the greater good.
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