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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2010 17:10:30 GMT -5
... The name of the church is Sts. Anne and Joachim Catholic Church, in Fargo, North Dakota. According to Wikipedia ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fargo,_North_Dakota), the population of Fargo is 99,200, with a wider metropolitan population of about 200,000. ... The Diocese of Fargo has a population of 84,190 Catholics. That is 24 times the total number of friends in this country give or take a few. The total value of late model Mercs lined up at the seven conventions here being about the cost of the church construction, I would say the Mick's are getting far greater value for money. And Jason, there is nothing like a wife, kids and mortgage to deal to your leftover student communist radicalism. The Diocese of Fargo must take in a fairly large area to have this number of Catholics. It's certainly not known for being a predominantly Catholic city - or any other denomination. (However, there are 10 Lutheran Churches listed on Google for Fargo.) In addition, there are at least 4 other Catholic churches in Fargo plus a Newman Center on the campus there. In the "wider metropolitan area" there are 4 more Catholic Churches plus another Newman Center. How many Mercury cars are in your area? Does everyone buy Mercury?? At a cost of $50,000 (maybe high for the Fargo area - I didn't do a lot of research) the $5 million church cost (probably low estimate) would allow for 100 Mercury vehicles or 14+ per convention. I have never taken particular notice, but that seems a bit more than expected. But then we tend to be a little conservative here in ND.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 17:15:50 GMT -5
The improvements would increase the value of the peoperty and be a nexus for taxation The improvements would increase the basis of the property. The church is not a legal entity and therefore cannot own anything. The financial arrangements of paying the increased taxes or what happens when/if the property is liquidated is handled on a case by case basis - there are different circumstances. Rational, maybe you should set up a page on this site to give lessons in common sense. It could be the 5th door down on the right! Any of you who wonder about these things -- have you ever asked people you know who own convention grounds? They would be the best source. But I suppose there may be people reading here who are owners.... ? Emy, if you are going to give rational good advice then make sure you give him the correct information. "Common Sense and Sound Logic" is down the corridor, third door on the left!" You have just sent him to 5th door on the right, which is "Historical Convolutions and Wishful Thinking!"
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2010 17:18:52 GMT -5
Cathedrals have interesting architecture, but to me (I know this sounds quaint) they aren't as wonderful as flowers. Luke 12:27 Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. fs I totally agree. Shall I repeat my monastery vs. Danube Valley story again??
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2010 17:22:58 GMT -5
Rational, maybe you should set up a page on this site to give lessons in common sense. It could be the 5th door down on the right! Any of you who wonder about these things -- have you ever asked people you know who own convention grounds? They would be the best source. But I suppose there may be people reading here who are owners.... ? Emy, if you are going to give rational good advice then make sure you give him the correct information. "Common Sense and Sound Logic" is down the corridor, third door on the left!" You have just sent him to 5th door on the right, which is "Historical Convolutions and Wishful Thinking!" No, no no... I want him to open a new room for Common Sense. Seems like the one you recommend isn't working so well. (just kidding you know)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 17:25:25 GMT -5
I attended Sun am mtg yesterday in a home nicer than the cathedral picture. Somehow, I can't picture going to the highways and biways to invite people to that feast!
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Post by rational on Apr 12, 2010 17:25:54 GMT -5
That's something I have been wondering too. If they are not a registered church then I would say not. However, if they are not a registered church how do the owners justify things as right offs? Write off against what? Generally write-offs are against profits resulting in a lower taxable income. But if there were an organization it would most likely be tax exempt. As far as the owners go there, the property is what it is (usually decided by the local zoning board) and taxed at the going tax rate. An increase in appraised value means an increase in taxes. An increase in the owners basis in the property means there is going to be less profit when it is sold. Of course, depending on use there are many different taxation rules that apply. However, the affiliation with the F&W church, from a legal/tax standpoint is moot.
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Post by rational on Apr 12, 2010 17:50:01 GMT -5
The Diocese of Fargo has a population of 84,190 Catholics. The Diocese of Fargo must take in a fairly large area to have this number of Catholics. It's certainly not known for being a predominantly Catholic city - or any other denomination. You know, alll of this information is available on line. The Diocese of Fargo is described as follows: 35,786 Square Miles It includes the following counties: Cass, Richland, Sargent, Ransom, Dickey, La Moure, Barnes, McIntosh, Logan, Kidder, Stutsman, Sheridan, Wells, Foster, Griggs, Steele, Traill, Grand Forks, Nelson, Eddy, Benson, Pierce, Rolette, Towner, Ramsey, McHenry, Bottineau, Cavalier, Walsh, Pembina. The data above is not the latest. 2006 - 82,891 Catholics (the catholics population, like the christian population in general, is declining rather rapidly. Catholics represent 21.8% of the population. This also represents 138 parishes (although there are 187 entities on their www site). Most Mercurys are less than $30,000.
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Post by fred on Apr 12, 2010 18:07:25 GMT -5
LOL !! The Mercs being referred to here would have a value of probably between $100 000 - $200 000.
When speaking of opulence and extravagance why would your thoughts default to the lowly Ford?
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Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 12, 2010 18:16:01 GMT -5
LOL !! The Mercs being referred to here would have a value of probably between $100,000 - $200 000. When speaking of opulence and extravagance why would your thoughts default to the lowly Ford? This is probably venturing into nonsense territory. I was originally refering to Mercedes. Top line 'Mercs' here are in the $200,000 to $400,000 range.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2010 18:36:32 GMT -5
Emy, if you are going to give rational good advice then make sure you give him the correct information. "Common Sense and Sound Logic" is down the corridor, third door on the left!" You have just sent him to 5th door on the right, which is "Historical Convolutions and Wishful Thinking!" No, no no... I want him to open a new room for Common Sense. Seems like the one you recommend isn't working so well. (just kidding you know) Ah, you were using sound logic to separate the common sense from sound logic? Use 4th door on the left. It has been vacant since the non-wearing of black stockings was declassified from being sinful.
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2010 19:05:56 GMT -5
LOL !! The Mercs being referred to here would have a value of probably between $100,000 - $200 000. When speaking of opulence and extravagance why would your thoughts default to the lowly Ford? This is probably venturing into nonsense territory. I was originally refering to Mercedes. Top line 'Mercs' here are in the $200,000 to $400,000 range. That's 3 or 4 Mercedes per convention. Things must be going well in your area. Have you thought to check the parking lots at the Catholic churches?
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Post by Gene on Apr 12, 2010 19:08:32 GMT -5
How does this sort of construction on private property work from a tax standpoint? I'm not accusing; I'm just curious. In the U.S. we pay property tax -- a new building would bump a farm's assessment and property taxes. Does the owner of the farm just take that on as part of his "duty/tithe"? What about the "gift", then, of the building? Do they get stuck for income tax on that? Maybe they get some use as a machine shed the rest of the year to help justify this. Are there any convention grounds where "the church" is the deed holder? Have they tried to be exempt from property taxes as a church? The improvements would increase the value of the peoperty and be a nexus for taxation The improvements would increase the basis of the property. Depends on the jurisdiction and its application of "usage" criteria on the improvement. In Texas, if you can demonstrate that the property has a farm use, improvements are taxed at a lower rate than residential or commercial property. Hence the rationale for grazing a few goats on one particular convention grounds that was purpose-built. Not sure how that ever turned out with the tax assessor, but when I knew about it, it seemed a bit on the shady side. "Honest sir, this is a farm, not church property! Come see my goat! He's grazing right there between the industrial kitchen and the twin barns equipped with rows of toilets and showers!" Never mind the rows of electrical outlets in the pasture. I know it looks like a campground, but it's really just a pasture."
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Post by open mind on Apr 12, 2010 19:36:52 GMT -5
The Diocese of Fargo has a population of 84,190 Catholics. That is 24 times the total number of friends in this country give or take a few. The total value of late model Mercs lined up at the seven conventions here being about the cost of the church construction, I would say the Mick's are getting far greater value for money. And Jason, there is nothing like a wife, kids and mortgage to deal to your leftover student communist radicalism. The Diocese of Fargo must take in a fairly large area to have this number of Catholics. It's certainly not known for being a predominantly Catholic city - or any other denomination. (However, there are 10 Lutheran Churches listed on Google for Fargo.) In addition, there are at least 4 other Catholic churches in Fargo plus a Newman Center on the campus there. In the "wider metropolitan area" there are 4 more Catholic Churches plus another Newman Center. How many Mercury cars are in your area? Does everyone buy Mercury?? At a cost of $50,000 (maybe high for the Fargo area - I didn't do a lot of research) the $5 million church cost (probably low estimate) would allow for 100 Mercury vehicles or 14+ per convention. I have never taken particular notice, but that seems a bit more than expected. But then we tend to be a little conservative here in ND. Mercury cars...has the car industry gone backwards...we have aluminium cars here...a 'bit' lighter so smaller engines required to drive them...
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will
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Post by will on Apr 12, 2010 20:02:14 GMT -5
Ok, then let's look at it from the F&W perspective on the investment. Is there anything more than just an "understanding" that the convention grounds owner is not likely to sell in the near future? That is a lot of money invested in facilities -- "church" money. What is the assurance that these improvements and facilities will continue as convention grounds?
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Post by Done4now on Apr 12, 2010 20:07:01 GMT -5
Ok, then let's look at it from the F&W perspective on the investment. Is there anything more than just an "understanding" that the convention grounds owner is not likely to sell in the near future? That is a lot of money invested in facilities -- "church" money. What is the assurance that these improvements and facilities will continue as convention grounds? in the old days families owned the grounds--but for the past 15 years or so it has become more common for the properties to be put into a "trust" which then takes care of them. A professing family, chosen by the overseer then lives on the grounds as "caretakers". In other words--the newer facilities ARE INDEED church properties for the most part.
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2010 21:06:58 GMT -5
Ok, then let's look at it from the F&W perspective on the investment. Is there anything more than just an "understanding" that the convention grounds owner is not likely to sell in the near future? That is a lot of money invested in facilities -- "church" money. What is the assurance that these improvements and facilities will continue as convention grounds? in the old days families owned the grounds--but for the past 15 years or so it has become more common for the properties to be put into a "trust" which then takes care of them. A professing family, chosen by the overseer then lives on the grounds as "caretakers". In other words--the newer facilities ARE INDEED church properties for the most part. Can you name more than one or two grounds this applies to?
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Post by freespirit on Apr 12, 2010 21:15:30 GMT -5
Depends on the jurisdiction and its application of "usage" criteria on the improvement. In Texas, if you can demonstrate that the property has a farm use, improvements are taxed at a lower rate than residential or commercial property. Hence the rationale for grazing a few goats on one particular convention grounds that was purpose-built. Not sure how that ever turned out with the tax assessor, but when I knew about it, it seemed a bit on the shady side. "Honest sir, this is a farm, not church property! Come see my goat! He's grazing right there between the industrial kitchen and the twin barns equipped with rows of toilets and showers!" Never mind the rows of electrical outlets in the pasture. I know it looks like a campground, but it's really just a pasture." Maybe it's an experiment to see if one can train goats to use the potty. ;D fs
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2010 21:19:57 GMT -5
Ah!! A research facility! ;D
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Post by freespirit on Apr 12, 2010 21:22:26 GMT -5
Maybe we could get a government grant.
;D ;D fs
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Post by Done4now on Apr 12, 2010 21:40:19 GMT -5
in the old days families owned the grounds--but for the past 15 years or so it has become more common for the properties to be put into a "trust" which then takes care of them. A professing family, chosen by the overseer then lives on the grounds as "caretakers". In other words--the newer facilities ARE INDEED church properties for the most part. Can you name more than one or two grounds this applies to? I personally know of 5. I am sure there are more world wide. One of my relatives has been involved with "helping" set some of these arrangements up. I think it is smart to make sure church property is not hostage to the whims of an owner. The workers have learned from past generations. But continuing to deny they have church property? Not so good.
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2010 2:48:17 GMT -5
in the old days families owned the grounds--but for the past 15 years or so it has become more common for the properties to be put into a "trust" which then takes care of them. Who administers the trust? Those people would be responsible for the taxes and other liabilities.
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Post by Done4now on Apr 13, 2010 3:11:50 GMT -5
in the old days families owned the grounds--but for the past 15 years or so it has become more common for the properties to be put into a "trust" which then takes care of them. Who administers the trust? Those people would be responsible for the taxes and other liabilities. It isn't appropriate to name names. Friends and workers obviously. Yes. The trust has to pay liabilities. I imagine that a title search could be done on all the convention grounds (at least in the United States) and it could easily be determined how all of them are held.
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Post by jason on Apr 13, 2010 4:52:34 GMT -5
How is the private ownership of expensive cars by the Friends (even assuming that I believed the figure given in this thread was halfway accurate), have anything whatsoever to do with the purchase of expensive worship buildings? Owning an outrageously expensive car is just as revolting as owning an outrageously expensive worship centre.
I am astounded by the blindness of some people! Truly did Christ say, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven". Too much materialism in too many posts here for my taste - in my opinion, some have confused greed for Christian liberty.
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Post by ScholarGal on Apr 13, 2010 7:42:41 GMT -5
Depends on the jurisdiction and its application of "usage" criteria on the improvement. In Texas, if you can demonstrate that the property has a farm use, improvements are taxed at a lower rate than residential or commercial property. Hence the rationale for grazing a few goats on one particular convention grounds that was purpose-built. Not sure how that ever turned out with the tax assessor, but when I knew about it, it seemed a bit on the shady side. "Honest sir, this is a farm, not church property! Come see my goat! He's grazing right there between the industrial kitchen and the twin barns equipped with rows of toilets and showers!" Never mind the rows of electrical outlets in the pasture. I know it looks like a campground, but it's really just a pasture." Maybe it's an experiment to see if one can train goats to use the potty. ;D fs Please don't assign me to the convention preps workday potty-mucking detail after that experiment. I'm squeamish enough when it's just a bunch of spiders and mouse poo.
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Post by Child of God on Apr 13, 2010 16:57:59 GMT -5
Ok.... so a farmer builds a building which is used for purposes other than farming for two or three weeks out of a year...
as far as tax assessment... which would be different from district to district... the basics will still be somewhat the same... property used in ag would be assessed different than commercial or personal property. Buildings used for a church gathering would not be commercial because there is no profit derived from that gathering, so personal property could be a possibility.
A farm building could be depreciated on a long term depreciation schedule... so that would require some actual farm usage to qualify. As far as farm value... most farms used as convention ground are set up in long term ownership so sale value is not really of importance.
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Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 14, 2010 5:18:44 GMT -5
Owning an outrageously expensive car is just as revolting as owning an outrageously expensive worship centre. Jason, that is sooooooo true. But I guess some folk like to give of their substance to their church, others enjoy cruising in a pricey set of wheels. And some folk are happy to do both. And really, as you have inferred neither is particularly better than the other. Some people just have more dosh to throw around. No problem with that.
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2010 6:57:35 GMT -5
Ok.... so a farmer builds a building which is used for purposes other than farming for two or three weeks out of a year... as far as tax assessment... which would be different from district to district... the basics will still be somewhat the same... property used in ag would be assessed different than commercial or personal property. Buildings used for a church gathering would not be commercial because there is no profit derived from that gathering, so personal property could be a possibility. A farm building could be depreciated on a long term depreciation schedule... so that would require some actual farm usage to qualify. As far as farm value... most farms used as convention ground are set up in long term ownership so sale value is not really of importance. Nope. There is no legal church entity so the use, from a tax standpoint, is whatever the owner uses it for. Allowing the F&W to use the property for a few days of the year, from a taxation point of view, is of no consequence. If the church were registered as a legal entity then the owner could possibly claim a deduction based on the value of the donation, i.e, the use of the property for that short time. If the ownership is organized as a business then the property could be depreciated as well. However, upon sale of the property, the depreciation would have reduced the owner's basis in the property and this would, in most cases, increase the profit realized and the taxes owed.
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Post by Annan on Apr 14, 2010 6:59:16 GMT -5
So how much is too much?
Luke 12:22-29 And He said to His disciples, "For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing? Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap; they have no storeroom nor barn, and yet God feeds them; how much more valuable you are than the birds! And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life's span? If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you? You men of little faith! And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying.
And what is mean exactly by these verses? Should a person give all to the church and to the poor and trust God with their future? Is it wrong to save for retirement?
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