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Post by sharonw on Apr 14, 2010 7:18:07 GMT -5
So how much is too much? Luke 12:22-29 And He said to His disciples, "For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing? Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap; they have no storeroom nor barn, and yet God feeds them; how much more valuable you are than the birds! And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life's span? If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you? You men of little faith! And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying.And what is mean exactly by these verses? Should a person give all to the church and to the poor and trust God with their future? Is it wrong to save for retirement? That asked, further question is this...when young folks start budgeting for their retirement by the time they get their they find that their retirement is never enough...often is just enough to keep them from really finding any kind of help in the end of things....with the escalating costs during the years, few people are able to "save enough", so what should they do instead? I think to not scrimp so much but not over do either....and we'll all have to take whatever is our lot in life down the road anyway. King Solomon said this... Ecc 2:24 ¶ [There is] nothing better for a man, [than] that he should eat and drink, and [that] he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it [was] from the hand of God.
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Post by lin on Apr 14, 2010 8:59:13 GMT -5
It costs as much to make a tent,as build a shed.
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Post by ScholarGal on Apr 14, 2010 9:36:13 GMT -5
It costs as much to make a tent,as build a shed. I find this hard to believe. The initial cost might be the same, but the ongoing cost (especially property taxes) seems like it would be much higher. I know of one convention where all the buildings are collapsible temporary buildings, partly because the tax costs of permanent buildings would be prohibitive. Do a google search for gospel tent, revival tent, or party tent and check out the prices. Selection of pole tent prices: www.ohenrytents.com/Pole_tent_Price_sheet.htmlSelection of pre-fabricated steel (storage shed) building prices: priceabuilding.com/t-pricelist.aspx
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2010 9:49:08 GMT -5
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Post by Child of God on Apr 14, 2010 9:59:21 GMT -5
There is no legal church entity so the use, from a tax standpoint, is whatever the owner uses it for. Allowing the F&W to use the property for a few days of the year, from a taxation point of view, is of no consequence. think that is what I said.... thanks it isn't... so disregard any discussion of this in the future... we don't really care. farming is a business and has special assessments all it's own in many places... edit: depreciation doesn't work this way....
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will
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Post by will on Apr 14, 2010 10:22:50 GMT -5
This may not format well. BTW, this sort of information is very public. Just go to your county assessor's web site and enter a name or parcel id. I did just that for one of the two convention grounds in my state. Low and behold, the machine sheds (aka meeting sheds) and the kitchen, sleeping quarter improvements are property tax exempt because of church use. Cool. Saves them a chunk o' change.
Plot # Type Description Length Width Year Built Year Removed 1-EXEMPT Poultry House 1-HEN HSE 24X66 B3E (QTRS-EXEMPT) 66 24 1900 0 2 Confinement - Pre-Cut 2-HOG FARROW MTL FR 24X36 B4B 36 24 1978 0 3 Shed 3-SHED FR 14X18 NV 18 14 1900 0 4 Crib 4-GRNRY FR 16X20 G 20 16 1900 0 5-PT EX Barn - Feed and Livestock 5-BARN-TAXABLE PORTION 24X36 + 48X48 3E 0 48 1900 0 6 RMVD Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 6-BIN 18X16 C4B 16 18 1900 2008 7 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 7-BIN 18X19 B4B 19 18 1900 0 8 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 8-BIN 24X18 A4A 18 24 1982 0 9-PT EX Machine or Utility Building 9-MACH SHED 2S FR 66X76 3E (2ND FLR+LOFT-EXEMPT) 76 66 1900 0 10-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 10-MACH SHED MTL 80X60 + 20X60 2E(KITCHEN-EXEMPT) 0 60 1900 0 11-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 11-UTILITY SHED MTL/FR 20X28 B3E (REST ROOM-EXEMPT) 28 20 1986 0 12-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 12-UTIL GARAGE 1S FR 20X32 B3E (NURSERY-EXEMPT) 32 20 1900 0 13 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 13-BIN 30X21 A4A 21 30 1998 0 14-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 14-UTIL BLDG MTL 20X100 + 26X54 3E (CHURCH-EXEMPT) 0 20 1999 0 16 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 16 BIN 30X27 A4A 27 30 2008 0 2010 2009 2008 2007 + Assessed Building Value $55,580 $55,580 $45,500 $45,500 + Assessed Dwelling Value $93,360 $93,360 $93,360 $93,360 + Assessed Land Value $56,810 $56,810 $35,800 $35,800 + Exempt Value $190,880 $190,880 = Gross Assessed Value $396,630 $396,630 $174,660 $174,660 - Exempt Value ($190,880) ($190,880) = Net Assessed Value $205,750 $205,750 $174,660 $174,660
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2010 10:29:26 GMT -5
This may not format well. BTW, this sort of information is very public. Just go to your county assessor's web site and enter a name or parcel id. I did just that for one of the two convention grounds in my state. Low and behold, the machine sheds (aka meeting sheds) and the kitchen, sleeping quarter improvements are property tax exempt because of church use. Cool. Saves them a chunk o' change. Plot # Type Description Length Width Year Built Year Removed 1-EXEMPT Poultry House 1-HEN HSE 24X66 B3E (QTRS-EXEMPT) 66 24 1900 0 2 Confinement - Pre-Cut 2-HOG FARROW MTL FR 24X36 B4B 36 24 1978 0 3 Shed 3-SHED FR 14X18 NV 18 14 1900 0 4 Crib 4-GRNRY FR 16X20 G 20 16 1900 0 5-PT EX Barn - Feed and Livestock 5-BARN-TAXABLE PORTION 24X36 + 48X48 3E 0 48 1900 0 6 RMVD Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 6-BIN 18X16 C4B 16 18 1900 2008 7 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 7-BIN 18X19 B4B 19 18 1900 0 8 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 8-BIN 24X18 A4A 18 24 1982 0 9-PT EX Machine or Utility Building 9-MACH SHED 2S FR 66X76 3E (2ND FLR+LOFT-EXEMPT) 76 66 1900 0 10-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 10-MACH SHED MTL 80X60 + 20X60 2E(KITCHEN-EXEMPT) 0 60 1900 0 11-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 11-UTILITY SHED MTL/FR 20X28 B3E (REST ROOM-EXEMPT) 28 20 1986 0 12-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 12-UTIL GARAGE 1S FR 20X32 B3E (NURSERY-EXEMPT) 32 20 1900 0 13 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 13-BIN 30X21 A4A 21 30 1998 0 14-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 14-UTIL BLDG MTL 20X100 + 26X54 3E (CHURCH-EXEMPT) 0 20 1999 0 16 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 16 BIN 30X27 A4A 27 30 2008 0 2010 2009 2008 2007 + Assessed Building Value $55,580 $55,580 $45,500 $45,500 + Assessed Dwelling Value $93,360 $93,360 $93,360 $93,360 + Assessed Land Value $56,810 $56,810 $35,800 $35,800 + Exempt Value $190,880 $190,880 = Gross Assessed Value $396,630 $396,630 $174,660 $174,660 - Exempt Value ($190,880) ($190,880) = Net Assessed Value $205,750 $205,750 $174,660 $174,660 So what church are they stating is using this in order to be a deduction? There is no legal definition is there?
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will
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Post by will on Apr 14, 2010 10:38:33 GMT -5
IDK, they must have gone to their county assessor's Board of Adjustment and made the request. Anyway, you can see in this example that it reduced their assessed value from $396k to $205k.
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2010 12:10:50 GMT -5
Interesting, thanks Will..
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2010 13:06:48 GMT -5
IDK, they must have gone to their county assessor's Board of Adjustment and made the request. Anyway, you can see in this example that it reduced their assessed value from $396k to $205k. This is very interesting. There are a couple of cases in IL where the owners have claimed to be ministers (internet) and say parts of their property is exempt because of church use. It looks like this is not challenged until tax time because the zoning and tax authorities have different standards. All the same, I wonder about the name given for the church.
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2010 13:11:07 GMT -5
There is no legal church entity so the use, from a tax standpoint, is whatever the owner uses it for. Allowing the F&W to use the property for a few days of the year, from a taxation point of view, is of no consequence. think that is what I said.... thanks It is except for the error stating that whether a building is classified as commercial depends on whether or not profit is derived. And it was clear that you were not familiar with the definition of personal property. I will try to remember to flag any responses concerning this in the future so you can easily skip over them. Well, before I continue with my taxes I hope you can correct my error(s). It is my understanding that property owned by a business entity could be depreciated for up to the useful life of the asset or 39 years, which ever is less. The depreciation is claimed against profits and reduces the tax liability during the term of the depreciation. It also reduces the basis held in the asset. When (and if) the asset is sold the profit is calculated from the depreciated basis and is taxable. Profits due to recovered depreciation has a tax cap of 25%. So if you start with a $300,000 structure and depreciate it for 20 years you would have reduced the basis of the structure to $150,000. If it then sells for $500,000 there is standard tax on $200,000 due plus $150,000 taxed at the recovered depreciation rate. Where has my thinking gone astray? ('clarified' at Gene's suggestion!)
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2010 14:23:57 GMT -5
That's how it works, that's why I don't depreciate my rental home. I want full price when I do sell. I will also move into that home for a year so that it becomes my primary residence before I sell so I don't have to pay capital gains on the property.
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shiloh
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Post by shiloh on Apr 14, 2010 15:21:52 GMT -5
Has a worker preached against worshipping in a building in recent years? A few older workers still promote the notion of the meeting in the home and the ministry without a home.
During the early and mid 1900s, there were SO MUCH ridicule of church buildings. For a long time, workers chose tents. At first workers opposed microphones also.
Can anyone help me with a history question? Where was the first public convention shed located in the US? The first shed built for a convention grounds.
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2010 15:36:13 GMT -5
That's how it works, that's why I don't depreciate my rental home. I want full price when I do sell. I will also move into that home for a year so that it becomes my primary residence before I sell so I don't have to pay capital gains on the property. Oh, there you go - you and your logic! Depreciation works for an asset that has no resale value at the end of the day. Unless, of course, you think the tax rate is going down!
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Post by snow on Apr 14, 2010 17:12:15 GMT -5
That's how it works, that's why I don't depreciate my rental home. I want full price when I do sell. I will also move into that home for a year so that it becomes my primary residence before I sell so I don't have to pay capital gains on the property. Oh, there you go - you and your logic! Depreciation works for an asset that has no resale value at the end of the day. Unless, of course, you think the tax rate is going down! Don't think that taxes will come down anytime soon!
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Post by StAnne on Apr 14, 2010 17:14:48 GMT -5
Can anyone help me with a history question? Where was the first public convention shed located in the US? The first shed built for a convention grounds. I don't know...but...the dining tent at Piedmont KS attached to a wood structure cook "shed". (1950-60s) It had large concrete (I believe) wells in which the stew and the hot cereals, etc. were cooked. (Would they have build a fire in these for the large iron pots that contained the food being cooked?)
Everything else was tents or multi-purpose buildings.
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Post by Gene on Apr 14, 2010 18:44:43 GMT -5
think that is what I said.... thanks It is except for the error stating that whether a building is classified as commercial depends on whether or not profit is derived. And it was clear that you were not familiar with the definition of personal property. I will try to remember to flag any responses concerning this in the future so you can easily skip over them. farming is a business and has special assessments all it's own in many places... edit: depreciation doesn't work this way.... Your thinking went astray in your statement that "...there is a standard tax of $200,000 due". The tax due is not $200,000, but then I think you know that.
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Post by Gene on Apr 14, 2010 18:46:54 GMT -5
This may not format well. BTW, this sort of information is very public. Just go to your county assessor's web site and enter a name or parcel id. I did just that for one of the two convention grounds in my state. Low and behold, the machine sheds (aka meeting sheds) and the kitchen, sleeping quarter improvements are property tax exempt because of church use. Cool. Saves them a chunk o' change. Plot # Type Description Length Width Year Built Year Removed 1-EXEMPT Poultry House 1-HEN HSE 24X66 B3E (QTRS-EXEMPT) 66 24 1900 0 2 Confinement - Pre-Cut 2-HOG FARROW MTL FR 24X36 B4B 36 24 1978 0 3 Shed 3-SHED FR 14X18 NV 18 14 1900 0 4 Crib 4-GRNRY FR 16X20 G 20 16 1900 0 5-PT EX Barn - Feed and Livestock 5-BARN-TAXABLE PORTION 24X36 + 48X48 3E 0 48 1900 0 6 RMVD Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 6-BIN 18X16 C4B 16 18 1900 2008 7 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 7-BIN 18X19 B4B 19 18 1900 0 8 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 8-BIN 24X18 A4A 18 24 1982 0 9-PT EX Machine or Utility Building 9-MACH SHED 2S FR 66X76 3E (2ND FLR+LOFT-EXEMPT) 76 66 1900 0 10-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 10-MACH SHED MTL 80X60 + 20X60 2E(KITCHEN-EXEMPT) 0 60 1900 0 11-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 11-UTILITY SHED MTL/FR 20X28 B3E (REST ROOM-EXEMPT) 28 20 1986 0 12-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 12-UTIL GARAGE 1S FR 20X32 B3E (NURSERY-EXEMPT) 32 20 1900 0 13 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 13-BIN 30X21 A4A 21 30 1998 0 14-EXEMPT Machine or Utility Building 14-UTIL BLDG MTL 20X100 + 26X54 3E (CHURCH-EXEMPT) 0 20 1999 0 16 Bin - Grain Storage (Bushel) 16 BIN 30X27 A4A 27 30 2008 0 2010 2009 2008 2007 + Assessed Building Value $55,580 $55,580 $45,500 $45,500 + Assessed Dwelling Value $93,360 $93,360 $93,360 $93,360 + Assessed Land Value $56,810 $56,810 $35,800 $35,800 + Exempt Value $190,880 $190,880 = Gross Assessed Value $396,630 $396,630 $174,660 $174,660 - Exempt Value ($190,880) ($190,880) = Net Assessed Value $205,750 $205,750 $174,660 $174,660 Well, I guess that settles the question about church property once and for all, right? Pretty difficult to say they don't have church property when it's a matter of public tax record. BERT! Waddya say? Does your church have church property?
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2010 20:18:13 GMT -5
Your thinking went astray in your statement that "...there is a standard tax of $200,000 due". The tax due is not $200,000, but then I think you know that. You are so right and I am so wrong! On the other hand, if the standard tax rate happens to climb to 100% then there is a standard tax of $200,000 due!
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Post by Gene on Apr 14, 2010 20:23:31 GMT -5
Your thinking went astray in your statement that "...there is a standard tax of $200,000 due". The tax due is not $200,000, but then I think you know that. You are so right and I am so wrong! On the other hand, if the standard tax rate happens to climb to 100% then there is a standard tax of $200,000 due! Yes, and once the Republicans are back in office, it's not a stretch to imagine that they will raise the tax rate to 100 percent. (Just thought I'd throw that out there before someone else does, but makes it about the current administration)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2010 22:55:23 GMT -5
Your thinking went astray in your statement that "...there is a standard tax of $200,000 due". The tax due is not $200,000, but then I think you know that. You are so right and I am so wrong! On the other hand, if the standard tax rate happens to climb to 100% then there is a standard tax of $200,000 due! In our jurisdiction, it matters what materials are used in determining the amortization period for depreciation. If I recall, wood framed buildings are allowed to be depreciated at 5% annually on the declining balance which means they will never be fully depreciated. Then, upon sale, all of the depreciation "recapture" is fully taxed as regular income (since it was deducted from regular income in the first place), and all gains above that is considered capital gains which is halved then fully taxed as income (ie you pay on only 50% of the gain). It's a pretty fair system in my view......that is, if any tax is actually fair!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2010 23:05:27 GMT -5
That's how it works, that's why I don't depreciate my rental home. I want full price when I do sell. I will also move into that home for a year so that it becomes my primary residence before I sell so I don't have to pay capital gains on the property. I do the same, which is why I decline to deduct depreciation. Who needs a big tax bill later. I don't mind paying capital gains as much though, since you only pay on half of it and if you sell your property after retirement when your income is lower, your tax payable isn't so bad. Moving in and out of places makes some sense, but the disruption, the cost of moving, the realtor fees, legal fees etc can be higher than the capital gains tax bill except in periods of time where there have been big moves in real estate. How does all this relate to F&Ws? I dunno, sorry we got off topic..... I do wonder how that convention treats its buildings for Federal income tax purposes. What has been posted here is municipal records which will affect property taxes but not Fed income tax. Are the owners claiming depreciation expenses on those buildings while escaping property taxes?
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Post by freespirit on Apr 14, 2010 23:13:06 GMT -5
Sometimes I think that "meeting/dining shed" is to the fellowship what "kingdom hall" is to the JW's. The preachers don't want **GASP** "church buildings" but can't seem to resist building them anyway. ;D fs
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 1:56:59 GMT -5
They are not church buildings. They are "farm buildings." Farm animals are housed in farm buildings for part of the year. Would you keep "sheep" in a church building? We could call them "folds" instead of "sheds." Perhaps that would be more accurate? Yes, "Convention Folds." That's better! After all, Jesus referred to "folds" as a holding places for his sheep.
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Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 15, 2010 4:50:15 GMT -5
They are not church buildings. They are "farm buildings." Farm animals are housed in farm buildings for part of the year. Would you keep "sheep" in a church building? We could call them "folds" instead of "sheds." Perhaps that would be more accurate? Yes, "Convention Folds." That's better! After all, Jesus referred to "folds" as a holding places for his sheep. You are on to it ram. For a sheep you sure do know a lot about sheep. But you got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 6:28:35 GMT -5
Instead of this sterile argument over whether a convention building can or cannot double as a farm building else-time, why don't the exes here relate the stories of their OWN current convention grounds? Maybe there is simple jealousy at play here? Exes form their own convention home.iprimus.com.au/pruephillip/Exes convention.jpg[/img]
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Post by sharonw on Apr 15, 2010 6:56:21 GMT -5
They are not church buildings. They are "farm buildings." Farm animals are housed in farm buildings for part of the year. Would you keep "sheep" in a church building? We could call them "folds" instead of "sheds." Perhaps that would be more accurate? Yes, "Convention Folds." That's better! After all, Jesus referred to "folds" as a holding places for his sheep. You are on to it ram. For a sheep you sure do know a lot about sheep. But you got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. ;D ;D
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 15, 2010 9:05:50 GMT -5
Instead of this sterile argument over whether a convention building can or cannot double as a farm building else-time, why don't the exes here relate the stories of their OWN current convention grounds? Maybe there is simple jealousy at play here? Exes form their own convention home.iprimus.com.au/pruephillip/Exes convention.jpg [/img][/quote] No jealousy on my part bert! The issue has never been that the truth fellowship has convention grounds. It is the stupid argument that purpose built buildings on those grounds are not considered church buildings. Goes back to your 'made by hands' point you bring up. As far as the church I attend and convention grounds go, there is an annual mens retreat that I will be attending the end of this month. The last three years we have went to the summer home of the pastors parents, which is a fairly modest home on a lake. We had great fellowship and worship time, and I heard some really awesome testimonies from brothers in Christ there. We all scattered through the house in various bedrooms, couches and floors to sleep, and although there was no convention stew, Keith (our pastor) makes a really great egg bake for breakfast, and we pig out all weekend. We even took time to all go for a walk and several guys went fishing. This year we will be going to one of our members cabins for our retreat. Hopefully the weather is good as I plan on riding my motorcycle and pulling my camp trailer there. The women's retreat on the other hand takes place at a local motel complex. They stay in rooms there, and eat in restaurants and even get out to do a little (riiiight) shopping in the evening at the nearby mall. Amazingly and just coincidentally I am sure, the mall is within a short walk of where they stay..... There are also annual 'conventions' with mixed denominations which meet at the Big Sandy Camp. Big Sandy Camp is the Northwestern District camp of The Christian and Missionary Alliance and welcomes all campers regardless of race, color, sex, disability or national origin. This is a wonderful retreat and has a lot of use throughout the year for various church retreats and youth group functions. You can read about it here: www.bigsandycamp.com/pages/AboutBSC.htmPurchased back in the late 50's for under $20,000.00 it has expanded and remodeled into what it has become. This has been a fantastic place for people to get together whether just for camping and fellowship with like-minded Christians, or when specific workshops and fellowship sessions are scheduled. It can be used year around, and the usage fees are appropriate for the functionality of the camp. There is a Mission Statement for Big Sandy, which in part states: The mission of Big Sandy Camp is to provide an environment where lives are changed through a Christ-centered social experience. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To accomplish this mission, the objectives of Big Sandy Camp are as follows: SPIRITUALLY
1. To give a clear presentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
2. To challenge growth and maturity through application of God's Word in every area of the camper's life.
3. To teach acceptance of one's self as a person of worth, for whom God has a meaningful plan for their life.
MENTALLY
1. To formulate an attitude of increased respect for the environment and develop an increased knowledge of nature.
2. To provide certified instruction in camping and recreational skills.
SOCIALLY
1. To provide an opportunity to develop friendships and accept others from various backgrounds.
2. To cultivate self-reliance and resourcefulness.
PHYSICALLY
1. To encourage physical fitness, safety habits, and a healthy lifestyle.
2. To provide opportunity to participate in organized and unorganized activities.Big Sandy can be reserved for groups from 10 people to 350 people, so it is well suited for a 'convention' type setting. So..... I guess I would have to say that as much as I liked attending conventions growing up... I am NOT jealous of the convention grounds in any way. Scott
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