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Post by to the point on May 26, 2008 15:13:09 GMT -5
CORRECTION TO THE ABOVE:
The truth of this matter is that each time I post the above referenced content along with my comments, NAZI MOD 3 comes along and throws a sissy hissy fit and deletes my post. I tried posting it in another (hymn) thread where it was on-topic, but NAZI MOD 3 kept deleting and locking the various hymn threads I would post to. Finally, I resorted to posting to this thread, suspecting he wouldn't delete or lock it.
So here we are. It was not my original intent to put my post here but I had little choice. Regardless, in its own way, it works in this thread too.
NAZI MOD 3 either doesn't understand his charge or doesn't care about boundaries. Either way, he's an over-zealously bully, deleting the threads and posts to which he objects.
Furthermore, NAZI MOD 3 crying "plagiarism" is a bogus cover story. If NAZI MOD 3 were genuinely concerned about plagiarism on this board, he would take to task the hundreds of existing poems, hymns, sermons, letters, and other copyrighted material on this board. NAZI MOD 3 objecting to my posts on grounds of "plagiarism" is nothing more than a lame excuse. Seriously, Ilylo, it would be nice to see you describe in words what your problem is with the text in red. Frankly, I think mod3 was being a retaliatory control freak, and more than a little dishonest.
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Post by um on May 26, 2008 15:21:13 GMT -5
Mod3 is Scott. 1000% accurate, watch this be zipped.
um
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Moderators Should Be Careful
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Post by Moderators Should Be Careful on May 26, 2008 15:38:31 GMT -5
Mod3 is Scott. 1000% accurate, watch this be zipped. um Assuming you are correct... As much as I like Scott (Ross I assume), he obviously has a lot to learn about board moderation, censorship, and honesty. I really hate to say it (really I do) but this mess was largely his doing and it's sad he wasn't more careful about how he handled it. Board moderation is serious business and on any normal board, moderators must be painstakingly careful to be fair or they (and in some cases the board) will suffer. This is even more true for a tightly wound bunch of quasi social misfits such as those who frequent this board. There's a lesson to be learned here. Hopefully, those involved will. Again, assuming you are correct...
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Post by when on May 26, 2008 16:04:36 GMT -5
The problem with this post, and many like it. 1) It pronounces an opinion out of the air, 2) has a threatening tone, and 3) no specifics to support the conclusion. All heat and no light. The problem with this post, and many like it. 1) It pronounces an opinion out of the air, 2) has an ignorant random tone, and 3) no specifics to support the conclusion. All heat and no light.
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Post by mr webster on May 26, 2008 19:52:48 GMT -5
The problem with this post, and many like it. 1) It pronounces an opinion out of the air, 2) has an ignorant random tone, and 3) no specifics to support the conclusion. All heat and no light. An "ignorant random" tone? Pray tell, what are you trying to say? the dictionary is your friend look em up: ignorantrandom
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Post by Scott Ross on May 26, 2008 23:54:50 GMT -5
Assuming you are correct...
As much as I like Scott (Ross I assume), he obviously has a lot to learn about board moderation, censorship, and honesty. I really hate to say it (really I do) but this mess was largely his doing and it's sad he wasn't more careful about how he handled it. Board moderation is serious business and on any normal board, moderators must be painstakingly careful to be fair or they (and in some cases the board) will suffer. This is even more true for a tightly wound bunch of quasi social misfits such as those who frequent this board.
There's a lesson to be learned here. Hopefully, those involved will.
Again, assuming you are correct...I'm curious as to how the mess in Michigan is largely my doing? I have NOT been posting the things I have heard on here, only those things that have been reported in the news. I have made some general statements. I do NOT have any moderating ability other than on the bible study thread. Not much need to moderate over there, as there are few people who contribute, and those that do seem to be sincere and honest in what they post. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on May 26, 2008 23:59:29 GMT -5
Howdy friend1, Thanks for questioning. It helps my own understanding to attempt to put it in words.Thanks for the response. The other thread is titled: Are Workers apostles. Scott
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Post by to scott on May 27, 2008 6:20:37 GMT -5
I'm curious as to how the mess in Michigan is largely my doing? I believe the mess they are refering to is the satire 'hymn' that was removed a dozen times over the weekend before being allowed to stay (for now) on this thread. (But if you were mod3, you would already know that )
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Post by Explanation on May 27, 2008 9:55:34 GMT -5
the dictionary is your friend look em up: ignorantrandomI know what the words mean but the power of language is the ability to put words together to form a coherent expression. I may be obtuse or abstract at times, but I certainly do not choose my words at random, and I also wonder why you would think I was ignorant. Because your original statement in this context made little if any sense. It was a collection of meaningless words put together at random, almost as if you felt obligated to comment but were completely ignorant of the context on which you were commenting.
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Post by sigh on May 27, 2008 12:27:39 GMT -5
Because your original statement in this context made little if any sense. It was a collection of meaningless words put together at random, almost as if you felt obligated to comment but were completely ignorant of the context on which you were commenting. Let me break it down for you: 1) It pronounces an opinion out of the air: "As much as I like Scott (Ross I assume), he obviously has a lot to learn about board moderation, censorship, and honesty." 2) has a threatening tone, "they (and in some cases the board) will suffer." 3) no specifics to support the conclusion: "" This came after about the tenth troll post I read which are all the same, just waste everyone's time. Sorry, but you still aren't making any sense. Perhaps you're analyzing some portion of it without examining it in context. I don't really know any more than to me, you're not making any sense. Oh well. I really don't care. Enjoy your pizza.
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Post by to what on May 27, 2008 13:11:39 GMT -5
What made you think I was eating pizza? Your posting style - extra cheesy.
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Post by You said it on May 27, 2008 16:21:12 GMT -5
I know what the words mean but the power of language is the ability to put words together to form a coherent expression. I may be obtuse or abstract at times, but I certainly do not choose my words at random, and I also wonder why you would think I was ignorant. I don't think anyone wonders. You said you were obtuse. That sums it up very well. And it is good to know you didn't choose that word at random. It takes a big person to admit they are obtuse. And a bigger one to ask, in the same sentence, why people think they are ignorant.
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Post by HEY on May 28, 2008 22:43:46 GMT -5
So enlightening to know we have now gone from the abuse case to a mental case!
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Post by bluejay on May 29, 2008 22:58:03 GMT -5
Mod3 is Scott. 1000% accurate, watch this be zipped. um Assuming you are correct... As much as I like Scott (Ross I assume), he obviously has a lot to learn about board moderation, censorship, and honesty. I really hate to say it (really I do) but this mess was largely his doing and it's sad he wasn't more careful about how he handled it. Board moderation is serious business and on any normal board, moderators must be painstakingly careful to be fair or they (and in some cases the board) will suffer. This is even more true for a tightly wound bunch of quasi social misfits such as those who frequent this board.There's a lesson to be learned here. Hopefully, those involved will. Again, assuming you are correct... ;D ;D Your description made my day!!! Is that better or worse than being "a lame, stupid, brainwashed ex-2x2, thoughtless jackass." As if being a "bitter ex" isn't bad enough ....
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Post by Oh Well on May 30, 2008 12:02:57 GMT -5
Assuming you are correct... As much as I like Scott (Ross I assume), he obviously has a lot to learn about board moderation, censorship, and honesty. I really hate to say it (really I do) but this mess was largely his doing and it's sad he wasn't more careful about how he handled it. Board moderation is serious business and on any normal board, moderators must be painstakingly careful to be fair or they (and in some cases the board) will suffer. This is even more true for a tightly wound bunch of quasi social misfits such as those who frequent this board.There's a lesson to be learned here. Hopefully, those involved will. Again, assuming you are correct... ;D ;D Your description made my day!!! Is that better or worse than being "a lame, stupid, brainwashed ex-2x2, thoughtless jackass." As if being a "bitter ex" isn't bad enough .... Hey, I would rather be a lame, stupid, brainwashed ex- 2X2 jackass than be a member of JF's religion. At least if you are on the outside you may have a chance. But being on the inside you are definitely doomed. As a matter of fact, the words you described in your quote is JF after you removed the ex from 2X2.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 30, 2008 18:18:16 GMT -5
Hey, I would rather be a lame, stupid, brainwashed ex- 2X2 jackass than be a member of JF's religion. At least if you are on the outside you may have a chance. But being on the inside you are definitely doomed. As a matter of fact, the words you described in your quote is JF after you removed the ex from 2X2.I personally don't agree with you on that. It is not where we go to worship, it is all about HOW we worship. Our salvation isn't determined by what church we attend, it is based on our personal relationship with Jesus/God. There are many (in fact most) of whom I know who are in the truth fellowship that I consider to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. Scott
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Post by Questionable on May 30, 2008 22:57:45 GMT -5
Hey, I would rather be a lame, stupid, brainwashed ex- 2X2 jackass than be a member of JF's religion. At least if you are on the outside you may have a chance. But being on the inside you are definitely doomed. As a matter of fact, the words you described in your quote is JF after you removed the ex from 2X2.I personally don't agree with you on that. It is not where we go to worship, it is all about HOW we worship. Our salvation isn't determined by what church we attend, it is based on our personal relationship with Jesus/God. There are many (in fact most) of whom I know who are in the truth fellowship that I consider to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. I guess that means you have never been a 2X2 in Michigan. In Michigan your salvation IS determined by what church you attend, better yet, it IS determined to what church you are allowed to attend. JF has been making his rounds and telling everyone where they will go and who can attend. Perhaps where you are from they have truth fellowship but in Michigan they have false fellowship since the members are controlled to JF's likening. NO, they would not consider themselves to be your brother or sister in Christ. I thought you professed once so you should know! Scott
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Michele
Junior Member
Be the change you want to see ... Ghandi
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Post by Michele on May 31, 2008 6:15:02 GMT -5
I go to mtgs. in Michigan and consider Scott a Christian brother.
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Post by Michelle on Jun 6, 2008 6:48:12 GMT -5
Goes for me to!
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Post by hII on Jul 11, 2008 5:56:55 GMT -5
I would like to also say in regards to your comment of facts coming from the court system.... all that comes from a court system is the most convincing story... not necessarily facts. I have been there and seen that. The problem is, unless you have a way to prove the story incorrect, it stands. When it is a child against a parent it is one's word against another and the courts unfortunately usually stand on the child's side no matter what. I can understand that from the protection stand point, but I have seen fabricated stories hold water and destroy families while being coached by a disgruntled family member or counselor. We need to be praying for these people... they are in a fight for their lives. Those in the wrong need help to turn from their indiscretions and confess. good point!
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Post by do you think on Jul 11, 2008 8:03:06 GMT -5
And do you think that JF considers you Christians also? Since it seems like he has the right to tell who may go and where you must go and with whom you may go to be with to be a Christian. He will denounce you so fast you will not know what happened if you disagree with him. You will say you are wrong, even if you weren't, so he would tell you whether you could be followers of his religion. You will not worship without his approval and where you go to worship, you will need his approval. He also will tell everyone that you are wrong. So, if you are in this fellowship, are you still a Christian? ?
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Nov 18, 2008 22:38:38 GMT -5
cheechette New Member member is offline
Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 19 Re: Michigan Abuse Case « Reply #132 on Apr 6, 2008, 12:28pm »
FACTS about the abuse case in Michigan...... Both 19 year old Russian girls were asked to take lie-detector tests. Needless to say, the first girl changed the story so much the prosecutor entered the court room and said he did not want to talk to her. The second girl refused to take the lie-detector test and when the Judge finally forced it she did nothing but cry and the test couldn't be done. Also, only one of girls can remember being sexually molested the other one stating she couldn't remember. What is wrong with that fact? If you were molested as stated, how could you not remember. Also, the Judge spoke about the 2 women workers that have been talking to the cops and said, "I do not want anymore of these reports from the so-called ministers. I want only fact not fiction." What does that tell us? Also, the couple being accused has been told, as stated in court by their attorney, that they have attended all counseling and parenting classes and were taught this... If your child is bad, put them in their room. If they still won't stop and keep coming out of the room, then put a small lock on the door and lock them in. If that doesn't help the matter, then start taking everything they like from the room. Continue on until their room is empty. I'll bet Protective Services would call this child abuse. Better yet, who ever heard of an overseer taking walks with young girls in the mornings, before, daylight? Maybe that is why we read the word "him" instead of they. Everyone is so fast to give their opinions and really don't know any of the facts. Aren't prosecutors paid for doing their job rather it is right or wrong. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not their logo. That is how they make their paycheck. My understanding is the people that go to meeting are the first to gossip because evidently their life is so boring that this is their only excitement. Where is the saint (described in the bible) that is suppose to be loving, helpful, and caring? I find them fast to judge and the opposite of the qualifications of being a saint. Oh yeah, and if that doesn't work, we will just excommunicate you and sweep you under the rug. Yes, people do know of one worker in Michigan that was wrong and yes, the overseer shipped him to another state, where he did wrong again. He is now under investigation in that state. Hopefully the prosecutor gets wind of that. Remember, when you point your finger at someone, there are 4 fingers pointed back at you. Report Post - Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
Gary Guest Re: Michigan Abuse Case « Reply #152 on Apr 7, 2008, 9:37pm »
May we all be reminded, and I do have empathy, for those, many F/W alike. That has been falsely accused. As sexual assault, allegations or charges. Never get, get dropped. You have to live with them for the rest of your life. They are hidden and kept on file waiting for another case to come up. This writer is all to aware of this. AS I to have been dragged into this mess. I was not anywhere near the ST. of Michigan. HOWEVER I do believe if anyone has done such a thing, they should not be left unpunished. Now upon saying this anyone aiding and abating should be charged and or dealt with by the LAW! FOR we should not have to wonder, who’s going to or where's the next false allegation is going to come from. AS one can be very aware of. IT TAKES THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO FIGHT THESE TYPES OF ALLEGATIONS!!! This writer has more to say about this great burden. But enough said for now.
On the 14th of Nov 2008, was the last court hearing, for the family at the center of this case? The four younger children are happily reunited with their parents. They have expounded at great length too the right authorities what really took place. They describe what happened to them as well and what went on with them during there placements. In short the case against the family is now closed. For some others it is not.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2008 4:36:36 GMT -5
Without for a second trying to minimize the seriousness of CSA -- and without in any way trying to imply that fears and suspiscions of CSA should be taken very very seriously, I think that it should never be forgotten that false accusations of sexual abuse are also very very serious and often lead to enormously serious psycological consequenses for the victims. False accusation is also not uncommon in some situations. (like foster care)
Proof is hard to come by, both in the case of actual sexual abuse, and also in the case of false accusation. So often, even if victims of false accusation are legally freed from responsibility, they are still marked in the social communities that they are part of. The 'hush hush' aspect (but whisper about it anyways) of it all (in both cases), removes victims chance to 'leave it behind' - thus leaving permanent scars.
2x2ism leaves a trail of CSA behind --- but leadership has ALSO used the ugly trick of false accusation to get rid of workers that are politically incompatible. Again, the 'hush hush' aspect removes the victims possibilites to clear their name. Don't believe all the 2x2 'rumors' sometimes spread as to why some workers have left the work!!! -- 2x2 leadership is very apt at using smear campaigns if it suits their interests. They have one of the most effective gossip chains that exist. I assume that WingsForTruth is aware of this possiblility.
Edgar
By the way wings -- your site doesn't always work on Microsoft Explorer 8.0 (which is currently in beta (and may be fixed before release)) -- first page vanishes after a couple of seconds (for me anyways, in some situations)
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Nov 19, 2008 7:06:10 GMT -5
Well done Edger!
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 19, 2008 9:14:22 GMT -5
Hi Edgar, .... I think that it should never be forgotten that false accusations of sexual abuse are also very very serious and often lead to enormously serious psycological consequenses for the victims. False accusation is also not uncommon in some situations. (like foster care).....
I assume that WingsForTruth is aware of this possiblility.Yes, WINGS is very aware of this issue. CSA is a highly emotionally charged issue, and when it rears its ugly head people tend to go to extremes. Caution should be used by all involved when this comes up. In the Michigan case there has been a lot of anxiety concerning WINGS keeping a list of names of people involved who may have been falsely accused. I have tried to make people aware that WINGS does NOT simply add names because someone gives us a name and claims they are an abuser. In other cases, I have seen names posted here on the board in the past with vague statements, or statements made with references to a worker in an area and have contacted those posters and asked that they remove their posts if they do not have any 'facts' which could back up the statement. Likewise in my role of moderator I have made a a few posts simply vanish which would be of this nature. For the last couple of weeks I have been involved with trying to find out the 'facts' regarding a worker who was removed from the work due to allegations of CSA. I have been in contact with people both professing and 'exes' regarding this matter, and have found that there is a wide difference of opinion about how these matters are handled and dealt with. One glaring omission on the part of those in positions in the fellowship making decisions is the lack of scriptural procedure when dealing with a member of the congregation. I have heard this from both professing folks and exes who I have been in contact with. The bible spells out the procedures to take when a member of the congregation has issues within the church. These procedures are above and beyond that of following the laws of the land and reporting these issues in the appropriate manner. Cherie Kropp has an excellent resource listed on her website on how to use the scriptures to deal with these matters within the church, and I encourage people to read these in order to get an idea of how the scriptures point us to the correct way to handle church matters. WINGS is not just about reporting CSA, but also about making sure that when allegations are made that proper procedures are followed regarding reporting and subsequent action taken. One very encouraging thing that I have seen in the truth fellowship this year is the fact that many workers are being allowed to take on-line courses on CSA issues. Here in Minnesota, Lyle Schober made available a course offered by MinistrySafe which takes a little over an hour to watch, which is followed by a question and answer session and a graded score which can then be printed out. It is an approved course which is used by many organizations which require individuals to be working around children, and is not just for churches, but also organizations such as the Boy Scouts, Little League Baseball and other organizations which call for interaction between adults and children. Here is a link to that: www.ministrysafe.com/Default.aspxMinistrySafe MinistrySafe provides essential training for Churches and Christian ministries. Our online Child Sexual Abuse Awareness Training is state approved, and helps protect your children from sexual predators, your staff and volunteers from false accusations, and your organization from crippling lawsuits.It is my understanding that this course is also being used by members of Ray Hoffman's staff in Texas, and I know that Lyle has made it available to other workers who have asked him about it. I would encourage other workers to contact Ray and Lyle to ask them about this training, as once a yearly fee is paid, training can be purchased very inexpensively and people signed up. I believe it is all being done under Lyle's original registration on the site, although I may be mistaken in that. Jesse Lackman has also paid this registration fee, and out of his own pocket made a block of training sessions available to any who wish to take advantage of this. If someone is interested in taking this course, I would encourage them to contact Jesse and ask him for further information. Jesse signed me up for this upon my request, and within a day I received an email and the course was available by simply clicking on the link provided. I should point out that this course was originally recommended to Lyle by one of the posters here on the TMB who is professing, who sent me the link to MinistrySafe and asked that I pass it on to Lyle to see if he would be interested in using it. I was very impressed to see that Lyle immediately took advantage of this training opportunity, and hope that other overseers will also be offering the training to their staff. By the way wings -- your site doesn't always work on Microsoft Explorer 8.0 (which is currently in beta (and may be fixed before release)) -- first page vanishes after a couple of seconds (for me anyways, in some situations) Thanks for pointing that out Edgar. If anyone else is having problems viewing WINGS, please send me an email or drop me a PM. Thanks. Scott
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Post by jhjmr on Nov 19, 2008 21:29:39 GMT -5
I am disappointed in Scott that he never mentioned that the Michigan case was over, and all went very well, children are very happy to be home, parents and children have bonded very well. State is completely out of the picture, they stated that there is absolutely no reason for them to oversee anything. They praised the parents for putting forth such a good effort to have this family reunited and the judge said he realizes, the family had a lot of problems with these children, and they still will, but he feels that the family will do just fine with out intervention. So, it would be nice to see some positive things addressed also instead of only negative things and praise for things accomplished instead of just waiting for more ugly allegations by some person that just wanted to see evil done of this family. This thread should be of the good and not just the bad. Good news is uplifting and glorious, so that is more necessary than the excitement of dreadful things being printed.
This story for this family is not over, as there are two members in a forensic center that needs to answer a lot of questions for trying very hard to destroy a lot of innocent people's lives. Why was this so important to do, why was the people that were named, named, what outside influence did these girls receive, what was the motive for this outside influence? Everyone must answer and yes, tampering or encouraging someone to lie definitely needs to be addressed. All must stand up and answer to the consequences that they developed and due punishment should be invoked on each and every one of them. No person, in any position has the right to do wrong.
When workers are discussed, is a person a worker or overseer when they do wrong? When they have a wrong spirit and teach others wrong, that is the blind leading the blind, they will all fall in the ditch!! So, who are they that an overseer directs and commands? Or who is that worker helping? No one as they can't help themselves. So, people ought to start looking at who they are considering a worker or an overseer. Just because they take that title, it surely doesn't make them what they claim! Giving position to someone wrong, is just deceit among the deceived!
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 19, 2008 21:45:29 GMT -5
Hi jhjmr, I am disappointed in Scott that he never mentioned that the Michigan case was over, and all went very well, children are very happy to be home, parents and children have bonded very well. State is completely out of the picture, they stated that there is absolutely no reason for them to oversee anything. Yes that is pretty much what I have heard. White Knight posted something to that effect above, and I talked with him on the phone recently. He told me that he was going to be getting some documents about this soon, and I have discussed with him how to post the document showing what has taken place in a manner which will not reveal personal details best left off of the internet. I didn't mention the family being reunited (without supervision) because I do not have anything official at my disposal to use, nor have I seen anything in any official form. Therefore, much as in any issue surrounding this case, I did not feel I should post a statement. This is about the best I can do for now. As far as the 'case being over', for the most part the thread here is in regards to the other two members of the family who are currently getting treatment at the Forensic Center. I have heard that they are doing well there, and are getting excellent care and treatment. One of them is scheduled to be in court in December and the other in January if I remember correctly, so as you say there is still quite a bit of that part of the case still unresolved. Again, although the wheels of justice may turn slowly they are still turning and eventually all will be resolved one way or another. I did not mean to ignore the fact that the family has been reunited without strings attached, but was simply waiting to see the official ruling before making any comments. Scott
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Post by Sharon on Nov 19, 2008 22:13:23 GMT -5
Scott!
Is it possible that the two undergoing treatment did have persuasion outside the family? And are those who did the persuasion of wrong going to be held responsible by the court system? Are they going to be held responsible by the f&w of the state? Thank you!
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