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Post by Lute1812 on May 24, 2008 14:12:16 GMT -5
is the potential of rape charges. In Michigan that’s anything under the age of eighteen, with or without the consent of the sub-eighteen year old. And anyone convicted of that crime, with a sub-eighteen year old, is the inclusion on the Michigan State Police's Sexual Offender List. Lute1812 Does this mean that the 50% of children (15-17) claiming to be sexually active are listed on the offenders list? Let's put it this way. I knew a 19 year-old guy dating a 16 year-old girl. They were having sexual relations; the girl's parents contacted the Washtenaw County Sheriff’s Department, in SE Michigan, about their daughter’s relationship. The 19 year-old male was charged, whether it was rape or sex with someone under the age of consent, I don’t know, but he was convicted, spent time in jail and was placed on the Michigan SOL. I am only addressing this situation, the older Russian girls were under 18 when some of these incidents occurred, supposedly, and the assumed male participants are construed as adults (over 18-years old). I have no insight concerning your accounts, as ‘all’ are not legal adults. But are there pre-adults that are subject to go on the adult SOL, at 18, if they don’t complete some court ordered penalties for their misdeeds. The answer to that is, “yes.” I know of a 17 year-old who was convicted of molesting a three-year-old, in GA, I personally know his mother and her son was fifteen at that time, and this teenager still has some court penalties to serve and if completed his record will be expunged, by his 18th birthday. If not, he goes on the adult SOL when he moves to Michigan after his 18th birthday. Lute1812
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Post by That is Strange on May 24, 2008 14:27:37 GMT -5
Does this mean that the 50% of children (15-17) claiming to be sexually active are listed on the offenders list? Let's put it this way. I knew a 19 year-old guy dating a 16 year-old girl. They were having sexual relations; the girl's parents contacted the Washtenaw County Sheriff’s Department, in SE Michigan, about their daughter’s relationship. The 19 year-old male was charged, whether it was rape or sex with someone under the age of consent, I don’t know, but he was convicted, spent time in jail and was placed on the Michigan SOL. I am only addressing this situation, the older Russian girls were under 18 when some of these incidents occurred, supposedly, and the assumed male participants are construed as adults (over 18-years old). I have no insight concerning your accounts, as ‘all’ are not legal adults. But are there pre-adults that are subject to go on the adult SOL, at 18, if they don’t complete some court ordered penalties for their misdeeds. The answer to that is, “yes.” I know of a 17 year-old who was convicted of molesting a three-year-old, in GA, I personally know his mother and her son was fifteen at that time, and this teenager still has some court penalties to serve and if completed his record will be expunged, by his 18th birthday. If not, he goes on the adult SOL when he moves to Michigan after his 18th birthday. Lute1812 That is strange---Because in Michigan 16 years old is old enough to leave home and do what they want. If a emancipated 16 year old consents to sexual relations with an 18 old nothing can be done. There must be forced Sex. Although emancipation is considred 18 a 16 year old may leave home and not be forced to return. A self emancipated minor is rarely contested by the court system.
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Post by Lute1812 on May 24, 2008 14:51:48 GMT -5
Thais is strange.
Those two cases are real-life cases. I know both the 19-year-old, who lived two-homes from me, and the other case, I have actually met the 17-year-old from GA once, though I've known his mother for four years. The 17-year-old is living with his father and his mother lives nearby in Ann Arbor.
It's like in MI I believe the drinking age is 21, but you can join the military at 18 (and younger if you have your parent's signature.) Try to find some consistencies.
Lute1812
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Post by What Hat on May 24, 2008 16:17:07 GMT -5
In most jursidictions the difference in ages between the two parties having sex is considered in determining statutory rape charges. So two 14 years old having sex is not a good thing but not statutory rape; a 23 year old and a 14 year old would be.
Hope that helps.
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Post by Lute1812 on May 24, 2008 16:34:09 GMT -5
'what,' thank you. Simple and to the point. I didn't want to get into all those permutations of age differences, to many headaches.
Lute1812
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Post by friend1 on May 24, 2008 17:43:52 GMT -5
Howdy friend1, In regards to your post: Who do I think the workers are? Messengers sent from God. That is the definition of apostle. So I consider them as apostles. Where did you get your definition of apostle? Here are a few: From the curch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints website:
Apostle One sent forth to serve as a special witness of Jesus Christ. There are 15 Apostles living on the earth today. They make up the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church.Merriam-Webster dictionary:
apostle One entry found.
apostle Main Entry: apos·tle Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpä-səl\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Old English; Anglo-French apostle & Old English apostol, both from Late Latin apostolus, from Greek apostolos, from apostellein to send away, from apo- + stellein to send Date: before 12th century 1: one sent on a mission: as a: one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul b: the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group 2 a: a person who initiates a great moral reform or who first advocates an important belief or system b: an ardent supporter : adherent 3: the highest ecclesiastical official in some church organizations 4: one of a Mormon administrative council of 12 menFree on line dictionary:
a·pos·tle (-psl) n. 1. a. Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel. b. A missionary of the early Christian Church. c. A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region. 2. One of the 12 members of the administrative council in the Mormon Church. 3. a. One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation. b. A passionate adherent; a strong supporter.Just curious as to your definition, since you state that they are sent by God, and the definitions I find don't seem to support that. I see where they were chosen by Jesus, so maybe you feel Jesus is God? Also, do you feel that ALL pastors, priests and other clergy are also apostles? If the workers are apostles and sent by God, can they lose that standing in your church? If so, how? Do you consider Nathan Barker to be an apostle? Do you consider Brad Lewis to be an apostle? Do you consider Barry Barkley to be an apostle? Do you consider Lyle Schober to be an apostle? Do you consider Ira Hobbs to be an apostle? Do you consider William Irvine to be an apostle? Do you consider Tim Severud to be an apostle? Do you consider Betty Draper to be an apostle? Do you consider Barbara Huggins to be an apostle? Just curious is all. I find it fascinating when people refer to 'the workers' as being apostles, and I wonder if you feel one can lose their apostleship. Judas was and is considered an apostle of Jesus, so that would make William Irvine an apostle by your way of thinking, and any and every worker since then, whether or not they were in the work 6 months or 60 years. Thanks for the thought provoking idea, and I look forward to your answer! Scott Edit- I posted this to a new thread rather than to hijack this one.... Scott, Couldn't find the new thread, but this is also thought provoking subject for me. Here is my line of thought. My own father was a man of many hats. He was originally an auto mechanic by trade having apprenticed in the trade at a local Buick dealer. He later apprenticed for another four years as a machinist. In World War II he was a diesel mechanic in the Navy. In the following years he had his own automotive machine shop business, built houses, remodeled houses, etc., etc., etc., all the while being an exemplary husband and father, etc., etc., etc. I think many of us had fathers similar to him. To say he was a machinist, or a building contractor, or a whatever would be accurate in a sense, but also not accurate. Of course he couldn't do all those things at the same time. Sometimes he had to juggle his time to get a couple of them in. Sometimes us kids felt his career was more important to him than we were. Considering a worker an apostle is similar. Perhaps with all the convention planning and attending, dealing with problems in the individual fields, etc., there is very little apostleship in their lives. But the thing is, they have set aside many of the normal functions of ordinary living so that as an occasion might arise, they can fill the place of apostleship as needed. Apparently, most see apostleship as a title. But I see it as a function. So perhaps I am in error in my use of the word, at least in a public sense. Concerning the list of names you gave, I have only met one of them, but know little of any except what's written here. Thanks for questioning. It helps my own understanding to attempt to put it in words.
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Guest from Michigan
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Post by Guest from Michigan on May 24, 2008 18:19:02 GMT -5
Soooo, where are the twins today? this seems to be the big question around here. Anyone know?
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on May 24, 2008 21:04:55 GMT -5
Soooo, where are the twins today? this seems to be the big question around here. Anyone know? And where are the sister workers? Hear there maybe other workers added. Last I heard the grand total was up to 200 plus.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on May 24, 2008 22:08:21 GMT -5
[ quote]author=White KNIGHT] May we all be reminded, and I do have empathy for those many F/W alike. That have been falsely accused. As sexual assault allegations or charges. Never get, get dropped. You have to live with them for the rest of your life. They are hidden and kept on file waiting for another case to come up. This writer is all too aware of this, AS I to have been dragged into this mess. I was not anywhere near the, Michigan ST. HOWEVER I do believe if anyone has done such a thing, they should not be left unpunished. Now upon saying this anyone aiding and abating should be charged and or dealt with by the LAW! FOR we, should not have to wonder, who's going to or where's, the next faults allegation is going to come from. AS one can be very a wear of. IT TAKES THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO FIGHT THESE TYPES OF ALLEGATIONS!!! This writer has more to say about this great burden. But enough said for now.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on May 24, 2008 22:59:32 GMT -5
[ quote author=White Knight]Lets start at the beginning. SEPTEMBER 1st 2007. When one sister worker, talked with the twins & the parents for two hours. This talk was about abuse, abuse only in the home. [Intern she talked to her companion.] NOW bear in mind these workers have not been in their home [accusers] but save an hour. Prior to this & have not since. Now: something smells here. There was a flurry of events that followed, there on in. Yes the girls were told they were 18 yrs old & that they did not have to go back home. This was a good move, on the workers part. However I do have a bit of a problem what happened from there. These girls should have been taken to a shelter. Away from the religion!! ( As to avoid pitting friends against friends). Then advise to take it right avenue IE; authorities. Taken them to the authorities & tell them of the situation. Leaving it there, that they might continue to minister the WORD OF GOD! However this was not done. On the court docket's” workers are the complainants & the twins are the witnesses’’. The parents get shunned. Right to this day. Plus the info coming out THE twins are not privy to is coming from other sources. I wonder were! [Peoples names, addresses, past history etc.] So far to my knowledge there has been 20-30(now up to 200 plus) people and counting. This is pitting w against workers & friends against friends etc. This is most certainly not KINGDOM MINDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry gotten ahead of my self. The abuse allegations became sexual abuse about two months later in NOVEMBER. Does it small like a scam yet. This looks like a diversion tactic, abuse didn't work, let’s try another avenue. This writer believes this is a cover up. To divert another ongoing investigation into the workers in MICHIGAN. AS a friend did call into that family, and did worn them & quot; that they believed they were being used as a smoke screen. This will do for now. More to come!! The truth will come out, & I trust it will!!! Scott is right there is more than meets the eye in this situation. SO don't be so quick to jump to conclusions! [/quote Since this many things have evolved.
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Post by more facts on May 25, 2008 11:14:12 GMT -5
Do not forget the workers told family members that they were now going to take control of the girls. They said the girls wanted to become workers also. The girls had already applied to take college courses before this happened. At Alma convention they sat with the workers as though they were already workers. They laughed about the situations that was happening with their minor brothers and sister. They thought they would take control of their family and I don't think they were aware of the things that were in store for them. They were hid when they left the convention grounds. From then things just kept snowballing out of control. When the first charges were found to be a lot of lies, then they kept up the charges trying to get someones attention. They were encouraged to make false charges. It states so in the court papers. There is money around to pay for these false charges, but it is in someone elses name and appears only that it does not belong to the religion. Many elders need to be questioned. The smoke screen will be known sooner or later even though the workers wouldn't want that to happen. Everyone needs to fight for justice for this wrong doings and there are laws against someone encouraging others to lie.
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Post by wondering on May 25, 2008 11:31:37 GMT -5
They were encouraged to make false charges. It states so in the court papers. What EXACTLY does it say in the court papers, word for word, not taken out of context?
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Post by IMO on May 25, 2008 11:41:39 GMT -5
2x2s that I know, have always thought that they were above the law. Maybe now they will see that they have to obey the LAW OF THE LAND like the rest of us do. They cannot manipulate the law to be THEIR way.
Sounds like the 2 sister workers could be charged on a couple of counts.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 25, 2008 16:02:29 GMT -5
Did God forget Paul, Matthias, and Barnabas apostles and Apollo, Timothy, Silas, etc... I don't think so! ... theirs names and many other apostles through the ages have been added and build on the same 12 New Testament foundations.Matthias was one of the twelve...
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Post by T H I R T E E N on May 25, 2008 23:52:51 GMT -5
Edit by mod3: If you are easily offended, skip this post. TMB is currently under attack by a nasty troll intent on plagiarizing the 1987 George Michael song "Father Figure" from the album titled "Faith".
Any implication that the song is a hymn is an insult to all Christianity.
Please excuse the mess... ------------ORIGINAL POST----------------- I think it's important that the person singing a hymn be able to connect with the lyrics and meaning of the hymn.
For this reason, I've been researching potential new hymns for the next revision of the f&w hymn book while considering the character, personality, struggles, and preferences of the people that will be singing them.
My first proposal, based on the behavior of some brother workers, is the following:
Father Figure
Thats all I wanted, something special, Something sacred in your eyes, For just one moment, to be bold and naked At your side
Sometimes I think that youll never understand me Maybe this time is forever, say it cant be
Thats all you wanted, something special, Someone sacred in your life Just for one moment, to be warm and naked At my side
Sometimes I think that youll never understand me But something tells me together, wed be happy
I will be your father figure (oh baby) Put your tiny hand in mine (Id love to) I will be your preacher teacher (be your daddy) Anything you have in mind (it would make me) I will be your father figure (very happy) I have had enough of crime (please let me) I will be the one who loves you Until the end of time
Thats all I wanted But sometimes love can be mistaken for a crime Thats all I wanted just to see my babys blue eyes shine This time I think that my lover understands me If we have faith in each other Then we can be strong
I will be your father figure Put your tiny hand in mine I will be your preacher teacher Anything you have in mind I will be your father figure I have had enough of crime I will be the one who loves you Until the end of time
If you are the desert, Ill be the sea If you ever hunger - hunger for me Whatever you ask for, thats what Ill be
So when you remember the ones who have lied Who said that they cared But then laughed as you cried Beautiful darling, dont think of me
Because all I ever wanted Its in your eyes baby, baby And love cant lie, no... (greet me with the eyes of a child) My love is always telling me so (heaven is a kiss and a smile) Just hold on, hold on I wont let you go, my baby
I will be your father figure Put your tiny hand in mine I will be your preacher teacher Anything you have in mind I will be your father figure I have had enough of crime So I am gonna love you Until the end of time I will be your father I will be your preacher Ill be your daddy I will be the one who loves you Until the end of time
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Post by CORRECTION O N E on May 26, 2008 0:22:01 GMT -5
Edit by mod3: If you are easily offended, skip this post. TMB is currently under attack by a nasty troll intent on plagiarizing the 1987 George Michael song "Father Figure" from the album titled "Faith"CORRECTION TO THE ABOVE:
The truth of this matter is that each time I post the above referenced content along with my comments, NAZI MOD 3 comes along and throws a sissy hissy fit and deletes my post. I tried posting it in another (hymn) thread where it was on-topic, but NAZI MOD 3 kept deleting and locking the various hymn threads I would post to. Finally, I resorted to posting to this thread, suspecting he wouldn't delete or lock it.
So here we are. It was not my original intent to put my post here but I had little choice. Regardless, in its own way, it works in this thread too.
NAZI MOD 3 either doesn't understand his charge or doesn't care about boundaries. Either way, he's an over-zealously bully, deleting the threads and posts to which he objects.
Furthermore, NAZI MOD 3 crying "plagiarism" is a bogus cover story. If NAZI MOD 3 were genuinely concerned about plagiarism on this board, he would take to task the hundreds of existing poems, hymns, sermons, letters, and other copyrighted material on this board. NAZI MOD 3 objecting to my posts on grounds of "plagiarism" is nothing more than a lame excuse.
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Post by CORRECTION O N E on May 26, 2008 0:23:18 GMT -5
Edit by mod3: If you are easily offended, skip this post. TMB is currently under attack by a nasty troll intent on plagiarizing the 1987 George Michael song "Father Figure" from the album titled "Faith" CORRECTION TO THE ABOVE:
The truth of this matter is that each time I post the above referenced content along with my comments, NAZI MOD 3 comes along and throws a sissy hissy fit and deletes my post. I tried posting it in another (hymn) thread where it was on-topic, but NAZI MOD 3 kept deleting and locking the various hymn threads I would post to. Finally, I resorted to posting to this thread, suspecting he wouldn't delete or lock it.
So here we are. It was not my original intent to put my post here but I had little choice. Regardless, in its own way, it works in this thread too.
NAZI MOD 3 either doesn't understand his charge or doesn't care about boundaries. Either way, he's an over-zealously bully, deleting the threads and posts to which he objects.
Furthermore, NAZI MOD 3 crying "plagiarism" is a bogus cover story. If NAZI MOD 3 were genuinely concerned about plagiarism on this board, he would take to task the hundreds of existing poems, hymns, sermons, letters, and other copyrighted material on this board. NAZI MOD 3 objecting to my posts on grounds of "plagiarism" is nothing more than a lame excuse.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on May 26, 2008 6:34:49 GMT -5
2x2s that I know, have always thought that they were above the law. Maybe now they will see that they have to obey the LAW OF THE LAND like the rest of us do. They cannot manipulate the law to be THEIR way. Sounds like the 2 sister workers could be charged on a couple of counts. That is a correct, that is why I did not respond to lute1812s synopses. Though he is very intelligent, but not sure he has the details we have. So I don’t think he is on the same page as we are. But if I may add it looks like JerryR is starting to see some things.
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Post by ilylo on May 26, 2008 7:51:40 GMT -5
CORRECTION TO THE ABOVE:
The truth of this matter is that each time I post the above referenced content along with my comments, NAZI MOD 3 comes along and throws a sissy hissy fit and deletes my post. I tried posting it in another (hymn) thread where it was on-topic, but NAZI MOD 3 kept deleting and locking the various hymn threads I would post to. Finally, I resorted to posting to this thread, suspecting he wouldn't delete or lock it.
So here we are. It was not my original intent to put my post here but I had little choice. Regardless, in its own way, it works in this thread too.
NAZI MOD 3 either doesn't understand his charge or doesn't care about boundaries. Either way, he's an over-zealously bully, deleting the threads and posts to which he objects.
Furthermore, NAZI MOD 3 crying "plagiarism" is a bogus cover story. If NAZI MOD 3 were genuinely concerned about plagiarism on this board, he would take to task the hundreds of existing poems, hymns, sermons, letters, and other copyrighted material on this board. NAZI MOD 3 objecting to my posts on grounds of "plagiarism" is nothing more than a lame excuse.
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Post by maybe not on May 26, 2008 9:22:55 GMT -5
Matthias was chosen to replace Judas... so he was # 83 apostle. Was he? I don't remember seeing the names of the 70, so it is possible that he had been one of the 70.
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Post by However on May 26, 2008 9:24:30 GMT -5
Matthias was one of the twelve... Matthias was chosen to replace Judas... so he was # 83 apostle.
Remember Jesus first send out the 12 in Luke 9 and he sent out another 70 in Luke 10.... Matthias was number 83 apostle. (Acts 1:23)
Paul the apostle was 84 in Acts 14:14 and Timothy was number 85 (Acts 16:1)... the list goes on... Apollos in (Acts 19).
Matthias was chosen to be numbered among the 11 apostles after Judas had killed himself.However, Matthias was chosen by a gamble (lOT) It says in scripture that they prayed such that the casting of lots would have the right outcome. There is no scripture to supports Gods approval of the election. On the other hand (Paul) was chosen by Christ Himself. How do you know that Matthias was chosen over Paul. I would tend to say (based on scripture only), Paul has a greater place with the twelve than Matthias. One was chosen by men in their thinking, the other was chosen by Jesus in person. Things to consider.
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Post by to ilylo on May 26, 2008 12:03:52 GMT -5
Thank you, ilylo, for sharing your emotions (albeit pictorially) in response to the case against mod3's controlling and deceptive behavior. I too find his/her behavior deplorable; However, I'm not surprised by it. (Who knows! Perhaps he was encouraged by Maxine Waters recently wearing her socialism on her sleeve (when she threatened to socialize "big-oil".))
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Post by rational on May 26, 2008 14:07:43 GMT -5
Edit by mod3: If you are easily offended, skip this post. TMB is currently under attack by a nasty troll intent on plagiarizing the 1987 George Michael song "Father Figure" from the album titled "Faith" [/size][/b] [/quote] I find it interesting that the moderator is concerned about a satirical post that is clearly a parody on a well known piece but has no concern about posts that encourage the murder of individuals in a rather small group of easily identified people. When brought to the moderator's attention it was dismissed as clearly being a satire. I don't know what post was removed but it is difficult for me to imagine something more obscene than suggesting killing someone, even in a satirical context.
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Post by gem unlogged on May 26, 2008 14:37:12 GMT -5
I live in Michigan. This whole situation about the Michigan abuse case(s) has snowballed into a huge, tragic and sad mess to say the least. Like White Knight, I imagine there is more to this situation than meets the eye. So much that if/ when this situation is "ever" straightened out, what will be known to us will be mind boggling. I feel that child molestation issues can not be swept under the rug. But to be honest with you all, I have found much of what is going on depressing and sad and disillusioning. By praying about these tragic situations/those who are involved in them, I feel/hope that this helps in some way.
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Post by ilylo on May 26, 2008 14:38:31 GMT -5
Nice turnabout...you call it my emotions yet whomever above is the one throwing a tantrum. Get real.
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Post by to Eye Lie Low on May 26, 2008 14:42:37 GMT -5
Nice turnabout...you call it my emotions yet whomever above is the one throwing a tantrum. Get real. Perhaps, if you can muster the eloquence, you'd care to take to task on a point-by-point basis that with which you disagree. Until then, you'll have to be content with the status of a hit-and-run cartoonist.
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Post by ilylo on May 26, 2008 14:55:58 GMT -5
Only in your little world. Enjoy the view down there while you beat the floorboard.
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Post by par on May 26, 2008 14:59:22 GMT -5
Only in your little world. Enjoy the view down there while you beat the floorboard. Typical.
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