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Post by Rob O on Jun 9, 2009 21:52:05 GMT -5
Hi Linda,
Thanks for clarifying. I thought something like that was the case. I don't think you have a completely different take. It seems to me that you understand it very similarly to myself but just explain it a bit differently.
The only part where I would potentially differ is that after His resurrection I see Him as once again operating out of deity but now also perfectly human, the way we were meant to be. I think that eternally He will remain the God-man, in Him is the true reconciliation of God and humanity; but His humanity is now completely freed of the limitations of our mortal, deficient current state. And I say "potentially differ" because you may also think something similarly.
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Post by freespirit on Jun 9, 2009 22:02:32 GMT -5
I would also like to hear your answer to Freespirit's question: Is it okay to worship the stars?Yeah... me too. fs
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Post by freespirit on Jun 9, 2009 22:57:17 GMT -5
I am glad, in reading something as powerful as the Sermon On The Mount, that Jesus did not engage in metaphysical crap, Greek translations, word striving or arguing to prove points. That is what gave His simple message such power. I am puzzling over how we would understand the sermon on the mount without it being translated from Greek and also how it isn't metaphysical. It talks about heaven, hell, God, abstract concepts, a reality that is beyond what is perceptible to the senses, the supernatural, etc. Main Entry: meta·phys·i·cal Pronunciation: \-ˈfi-zi-kəl\ Function: adjective Date: 15th century 1: of or relating to metaphysics 2 a: of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses b: supernatural 3: highly abstract or abstruse ; also : theoretical 4often capitalized : of or relating to poetry especially of the early 17th century that is highly intellectual and philosophical and marked by unconventional imagery fs, confused
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2009 5:58:44 GMT -5
Freespirit - yes, and no. On the Mount Jesus gave us His doctrine, and this doctrine concerned the poor in spirit... they that mourn... the meek... they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness... the merciful... the pure in heart... the peacemakers... they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake... etc. Jesus did not concern himself with obtuse questions such as how many angels can dance on a pin, but rather righteousness and the Kingdom of his Father. And by "Greek translations" I mean those who claim a higher authority by "knowing" the original texts, and seek to take away people's faith.
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Post by sharon on Jun 10, 2009 7:18:25 GMT -5
You know for many many years, when I prayed...I naturally said "My Father...." but in my mind is was extremely hard to separate Jesus and God EXCEPT for Jesus' crucifixtion and resurrection, then after that was through my mind then they became a singular God to me....I asked some about that at the time and they said "Don't worry about it, there is nothing wrong with that." but no explanation as to why that wouldn't be wrong......
And even yet, that's the way my mind goes when praying most the time, I cannot separate them into 2 different God's because they both are the spirit of unity and righteousness to me as one. I can't explain as of yet, but that's the way it comes to me.
Yes, freespirit, it is okay to worship Jesus for in doing so we affirm the priority that God Almighty has in our lives!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2009 7:35:33 GMT -5
Freespirit - yes, and no. On the Mount Jesus gave us His doctrine, and this doctrine concerned the poor in spirit... they that mourn... the meek... they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness... the merciful... the pure in heart... the peacemakers... they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake... etc. Jesus did not concern himself with obtuse questions such as how many angels can dance on a pin, but rather righteousness and the Kingdom of his Father. And by "Greek translations" I mean those who claim a higher authority by "knowing" the original texts, and seek to take away people's faith. This is all so true Bert. The sermon on the mount shows us how to be perfect (or complete) as God in Heaven is. One thing though. Jesus forgot to cover just how important the method of preaching was and where to meet for worship. He tells us how to be perfect, yet he misses out the essentials ? No wonder I'm confused !
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2009 7:50:12 GMT -5
The Sermon on the Mount was His doctrine. His EXAMPLE was what he showed in his life and his own ministry. This ministry, and the little home churches, occupy most of the New Testament, and can be trusted as, well, being Gospel.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2009 8:19:27 GMT -5
Well, the ministry, home churches and no-name were all there in the 70 years of early Christian history - but I wouldn't call them a Trinity. That's just what God wanted. ;D
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Post by freespirit on Jun 10, 2009 10:27:46 GMT -5
Freespirit - yes, and no. On the Mount Jesus gave us His doctrine, and this doctrine concerned the poor in spirit... they that mourn... the meek... they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness... the merciful... the pure in heart... the peacemakers... they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake... etc. Jesus did not concern himself with obtuse questions such as how many angels can dance on a pin, but rather righteousness and the Kingdom of his Father. And by "Greek translations" I mean those who claim a higher authority by "knowing" the original texts, and seek to take away people's faith. Thanks! I get what you mean now. I was having a moment there. ;D fs
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Post by todd on Jun 10, 2009 17:19:57 GMT -5
FS, Sorry, I didn't have much time to reply before… Yes I am quite fine with worshiping Jesus, even though you are saying that we should only worship God. Here is WHY I think this… I am not saying anything. I didn't give my opinion. I am asking you a question because I'm trying to understand what you are meaning. Sorry, I thought you were quoting the bible to tell me that we should only worship God. The example I used wasn't really that good but I'll try to explain myself better. If you were looking at the stars in amazement at how powerful the one was who created them, in that you are worshipping the creator. If you were worshipping the stars with no thought of the skill of a creator, that is not on. Imagine that you painted a picture, andsomeone looks at it and says that they love the beautiful picture you drew, you would take that as a compliment because it is honor to you, but if another person looked at it and said how much they love seeing paint on canvas, you would not take that as a compliment. We can look at the stars and they barely tell us everything about who God is, but we can look at Jesus and know God completely. Yes, that is what I am suggesting. It is the same as someone holding up a picture of you and saying, this is Freespirit, even though it is really only a picture of you.
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Post by todd on Jun 10, 2009 17:34:26 GMT -5
I would also like to hear your answer to Freespirit's question: Is it okay to worship the stars?Yeah... me too. fs Sorry I am slow
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Post by freespirit on Jun 10, 2009 17:41:17 GMT -5
Yes, that is what I am suggesting. Regarding reply #42, the bible you use has worded it differently to mine, and mine could be read as God and Jesus listed as seperate people appearing. Either way, I have no problem calling Jesus a great God. okay, lemme see here... First, it is only okay to worship God. And then... You are calling God "God" And you are calling the Spirit "God" And you are calling Jesus "God" And you are saying that Jesus is a separate person from God. So, are you saying there are three gods or one God? fs
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Post by sharon on Jun 10, 2009 18:06:30 GMT -5
Jesus gave us His Doctrine in Matthew--- 36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38: This is the first and great commandment. 39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.To me this is the only doctrine! It takes a lot of awareness of one's self to know if one is fulfilling those commandment well or not. And I cannot do it without the grace and help of God.
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Post by freespirit on Jun 10, 2009 18:33:59 GMT -5
Jesus gave us His Doctrine in Matthew--- 36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38: This is the first and great commandment. 39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.To me this is the only doctrine! It takes a lot of awareness of one's self to know if one is fulfilling those commandment well or not. And I cannot do it without the grace and help of God. YIKES! I'm kinda rotten and I don't think I can do it. Not even with grace and help. I think God is gonna have to change me--He's going to have to do all the work. fs
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Post by todd on Jun 10, 2009 20:19:46 GMT -5
Todd, these posts say that Jesus isn't God and say Jesus is fully God. Please explain what you mean. In response these people saying that Jesus’ record of himself wasn’t true because of the lack of the testimony of another man, Jesus went to reasonable lengths here to tell them that this wasn’t the case. It goes against anyone that says that Jesus is God. They are 2 separate beings which is why Jesus was telling them that he also had the witness of another... His father. . . . . . 41.Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42.Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. So, Jesus isn’t God. I agree that Jesus is fully God. There is nothing ungodly in him at all. He is 100%. fs Haha... sounds like I am getting like a trinitarian... He is fully God but is not God. Yes, confusing for sure when it is not fully explained, and that it probably why I really can't grasp what "trinity" is. I am wondering if these trinitarians and me are not that different in our understanding. Anyway, the verses above that say that Jesus "came from God" means that he isn't God doesn't it?... that is why I made that comment. He came not of himself, but was sent. So, you can see that there is separation there. But, when I say that Jesus is fully God, picture Jesus as God being manifested in the flesh. If you think of a ships manifest, it tells you 100% everything that is on that ship. You can look at the manifest and see a complete picture. Nothing is missing. The manifest isn't the ship, but everything that is on the ship is made evident on the manifest. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
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Post by freespirit on Jun 10, 2009 21:20:09 GMT -5
Haha... sounds like I am getting like a trinitarian... He is fully God but is not God. Yes, confusing for sure when it is not fully explained, and that it probably why I really can't grasp what "trinity" is. I am wondering if these trinitarians and me are not that different in our understanding. ;D ;D ;D well, I hate to tease you too much about it... but... yeah... Human language gets in the way of communication, doesn't it? I personally don't care for extra-biblical words like "trinity" "Godhead" "God the Son" "God in three persons" etc. for a variety of reasons, but all of that is mostly just semantics to explain the concepts so I'm not real fussy about it. I think that the term "Jesus is God" is a dumbed down over-simplification that is IMO kinda confusing. The verb "is" isn't clear. "Is" can mean "equal" or "is" can mean "the same" or "is" can mean a variety of ambiguous terms. And then by that time people are splitting hairs rather than communicating. Anyway, the verses above that say that Jesus "came from God" means that he isn't God doesn't it?... that is why I made that comment. He came not of himself, but was sent. So, you can see that there is separation there.. In my kindergarten and very simplistic view, it's the difference between "Todd" and "Todd's words." I could say Todd's words said, "XYZ" or I could say, "Todd said, "XYZ." You would "make" a painting but your words are "begotten"--a little more personal, still part of you even if maybe they are on the computer and you are in the kitchen. Kinda like creation was "made" but the Son was "begotten." Unlike humans, who sometimes say things they do not mean, God's Word is always true... so when we see Jesus, we also see God. Some Buddhists, Moslem's and even some Hindus recognize Jesus as "a prophet" or a "son of God"--but not as the Word of the Living God, the begotten Son of God. Here is some food for thought: Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.But, when I say that Jesus is fully God, picture Jesus as God being manifested in the flesh. If you think of a ships manifest, it tells you 100% everything that is on that ship. You can look at the manifest and see a complete picture. Nothing is missing. The manifest isn't the ship, but everything that is on the ship is made evident on the manifest. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Yes. freespirit
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