Post by todd on Jun 3, 2009 17:48:53 GMT -5
Here are some comments about John 8 and John 10. Certain verses from chapter 8 and 10 were used often on VOT in the argument about whether Jesus was God. And when I looked at these chapters again I saw other verses that seemed appropriate for some of the various conversations that often take place on TMB. I thought I would put them here with some of my thoughts, and get others thoughts on these things.
John 8
1.Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2.And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3.And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4.They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5.Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6.This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Here is Jesus pretending not to hear these people. Often on here it has been said that workers avoid questions. I hear comments like that and think that they are so much like Jesus. The questions are asked purely to accuse, just like what was happening here. Websites like TTT even have lists of “questions to ask workers”, which are barely different to the sort of question that was being asked of Jesus. Purely to accuse. Some find fault with the fact that the workers sometimes avoid these accusing questions, but even Jesus did it.
One thing to keep in mind is that the scribes and Pharisees were here to accuse. There were people that were trying whatever they could to catch Jesus out and be able to find fault with him. That is going to come up later, so just remember it
7.So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Jesus is being very vague here. Is he saying that she shouldn’t be stoned knowing that no one is without sin and because of the fact that he didn’t say, “Yes, she should be stoned”, or even that he didn’t stone her himself… or was he actually saying that she should be stoned? Jesus, please just answer the question . Some find fault because the pure and wise answer given by the workers wasn’t the answer they wanted. That is what happens of those that ask questions to try to accuse… they already know the answer the want, and when they don’t get that answer, about all they can do is accuse the worker of not answering the question, or being vague, or doublespeak.
8.And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Yep, Jesus really wasn’t interested in playing their games. I think he was deliberately uninterested despite that a lot of people around here would say that pretending to be uninterested is just so that he doesn’t have to answer the question.
9.And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10.When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11.She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Hmmm… I wonder do those who say that there is too much emphasis put on works/not sinning, ever read what Jesus said to this girl. “Go, and sin no more”. Yes, there is grace, but that is not to mean that we can continue in sin. Somehow though, people here find fault that the workers also talk about not sinning. There are plenty of verses that reference work that needs to be done. Don’t expect any time in the future to hear the workers saying, “Hey, you are saved anyway, so go out and sin… don’t worry about the laws of the country… murder a few people if you want… it won’t make a scrap of difference to your salvation”.
12.Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
There’s a verse for those who find fault in the F&W’s using Jesus as an example, and saying that it is not possible to follow Jesus’ example because of who he was.
13.The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14.Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15.Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16.And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17.It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18.I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19.Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20.These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21.Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22.Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23.And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24.I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25.Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26.I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27.They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28.Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29.And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
In response these people saying that Jesus’ record of himself wasn’t true because of the lack of the testimony of another man, Jesus went to reasonable lengths here to tell them that this wasn’t the case. It goes against anyone that says that Jesus is God. They are 2 separate beings which is why Jesus was telling them that he also had the witness of another... His father.
30.As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31.Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And this is what those that believe on him today should be doing… Continuing in his word. Yet, people keep asking for F&W doctrine, somehow thinking that it is necessary, to clear up what the F&W’s believe. What is wrong with continuing in the word of Jesus? That is the only doctrine we need. No need to add to the words of Jesus. No need to explain something any different to how it is in the bible. If there is something that you don’t understand, ask God for understanding. He is happy to teach.
32.And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
And those that continue in his words will be of the truth, because his word is true. Some think that because the F&W’s refer to “the truth” that it is an official name that we are taking and that it is then a lie to say that we don’t have a name. If someone is of the truth, that is no more their name than ‘mechanic’ is also their name if that’s what they also are.
33.They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34.Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35.And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36.If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
The Son has made us free. He is our mediator... mediating between us and God… so maybe he isn’t God. If he is God, then he wouldn’t and couldn’t be a mediator.
37.I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38.I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39.They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40.But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
This is a bit like those who try to say that we are of John Long/William Irvine etc. These early workers said that they weren’t starting anything new, but just continuing on with the faith once delivered to the saints, so how can we claim them to be our fathers, if we also claim to be following something they started, if they themselves were following something they didn’t start. If we are following them, then we should continue in the same way of truth that they were continuing in, just like the children of Abraham would do the works of Abraham. If we try to claim that those early workers founded something, then we are not following the same as what they were following because they were following something not started by themselves.
41.Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42.Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
So, Jesus isn’t God.
43.Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
I’m glad Jesus had the same trouble that I have. Some people have misunderstood me when I have used the simplest language and told the pure truth, and I guess it is because they don’t want to accept it, and don’t want to let go of their preconceived impression of the truth. When I have said something simple, it has been taken to mean something else (especially on VOT). Obviously, the workers also have this trouble with people mistaking their message, and Jesus also had this problem.
44.Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus sure got that right. Often the ‘2x2 church’ has been accused of lying, but when the accusers are questioned about it, so many different stories come out about what the ‘lie’ is, that it isn’t hard to tell where the lie really is. It is the accusers who lie.
45.And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Yep, I know what this is like. I got kicked off a forum once for telling the truth.
46.Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Haha, I wonder how many times I have practically asked the question “Which of you convinceth me of sin”? Often I have whined and moaned about people who just say that I am wrong, but then don’t bother to quote me or show me where I am wrong or why I am wrong. They will just say things like “you have brain damage” or “using doublespeak” etc, or on VOT they would just say “I’m not talking to you anymore” . If I am wrong, please convince me of my wrong (i.e. quote me and correct me)… or if I am not wrong, why do ye not believe me? Jesus knew very well they couldn’t convince him of sin, and I guess that is the very reason why people here resort to using slanderous comments to those who speak for the truth, rather than use constructive discussion.
47.He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
I wonder if this is the difference between two people that hear two completely different messages from the workers or when reading the bible. One example is those that hear the preachers talk about false prophets and false doctrine and the only way, and in their mind are hearing a message “laced with exclusivity”; yet I hear a message of warning being spoken directly from God, which is also well documented in the bible.
48.Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49.Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50.And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51.Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52.Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53.Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
We are starting to see how much the Jews know… They ‘knew’ Jesus had a devil. Just remember what they ‘knew’, and the quality of their knowledge about Jesus, because that could come up later too.
54.Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55.Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56.Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58.Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
This 58th verse is one that I have seen used as evidence that Jesus is God… simply because he said “I am”, with some people making reference to when God said “I Am that I Am”. Firstly, if you took everyone who said “I am” in the bible to be making a claim to be God, you will find quite a lot made that claim. Also, I doubt that Jesus was, randomly in the middle of this conversation, telling these Jews that he was God. One thing he said was that he keeps his Fathers sayings, so that would mean he isn’t God. Jesus was just trying to tell them that he was around before Abraham was. I don’t know enough about it, but maybe the translation came from a word that really meant “Before Abraham was, I was and still am”. I don’t know of a word that means “was and still am” in English, but if there was, maybe it would have been used here. Again, I don’t see why Jesus, in telling them about his father, would obscurely and randomly try to tell them he is his father, and especially in saying “If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me”
59.Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Those nasty chaps.
John 10
1.Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2.But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3.To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4.And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5.And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6.This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
So, here Jesus is talking about sheep. He does quite a bit of it in this chapter. Just using an analogy to explain things… but, they didn’t understand. I was often told on VOT that natural analogies fall far short and are full of holes… the nonVOT’s understood not. I wondered how they got on reading their bibles seeing the bible is full of these natural examples. Just like happened here, often my natural examples were not understood. I know how Jesus would have felt when things he spoke to them were not understood. The sad thing is though; to refute my examples on VOT the only way they could do it was to use very silly and false arguments. It really makes me wonder when people use blatantly false statements to argue against something. Maybe in some cases they don’t realize they are doing it, but I hope it triggers something to make them think, “If I need to make false comments to argue against something, then maybe I am on the false side of the argument”.
7.Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8.All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9.I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
…more sheep stuff.
10.The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11.I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12.But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13.The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
… sheep again.
14.I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15.As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16.And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
… sheep.
17.Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18.No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Jesus has been given this power from his father. There is an authority other than Jesus that gave him this commandment. Hmmm…
19.There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20.And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
I hear comments like this about the current generation of God’s servants. On this website included. That doesn’t mean that the claims are right though. The claims against Jesus certainly weren’t.
21.Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
Ah, yes, some will recognized the purity of the teaching of God’s servants even when others can not see it.
22.And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23.And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24.Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Hmmm… I was asked once on here about whether I was born in this way, and I gave a truthful answer, and then I got asked to tell plainly whether I was or not. It seems that unless the accusers get the answer they want, they are not willing to accept any other answer as a straight answer. Anything else is doublespeak to them because it is different to what they understood to be the truth.
25.Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26.But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
They weren’t his sheep and they were in a completely different frame of mind, and this meant that the things that Jesus was saying didn’t make sense. I think that is the trouble with a lot of the differences of opinion on these forums. Some people are thinking of carnal things and earthly organizations, and even talk as if such a ‘2x2 church’ exists. Others are talking about spiritual things and things pertaining to God’s church, and the carnal thinkers don’t understand the spiritual thinkers, and vice versa.
27.My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28.And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
… still talking about sheep.
30.I and my Father are one.
Hmmm… John 10:30… I’ve been waiting for this to come up. This is part of what some people use as evidence that Jesus is God, and the reason why I was looking at these chapters in the first place. For most of this chapter, Jesus has been talking about the sheep, and in verse 28 he talks about his protection of the sheep, and verse 29 he talks about his father’s protection of the sheep. In the 30 verse he is telling about how he and his father are ‘one’ in the way they care for and protect the sheep. It is the same as the oneness between a husband and a wife. I doesn’t mean that they are the same person, but that they are of the same mind and spirit, and there is agreement (check the similarities between v.28 and v.29). Jesus, and his Father, do not have their own ideas about things, or go their own ways, but they are exactly the same… they are one.
31.Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Those nasty chaps.
Not sure who here is familiar with the NET bible… The first I heard about it was on the VOT forum. I have a laugh at the NET Bible which claims that the translator’s notes are there for the purpose of explaining how and why the translation was derived, but in this case where the translation is barely different and means exactly the same thing in most other translations, they go to great lengths to explain this one little bit, but make no mention of how it was translated. The NET bible is a bit of a joke really. They have barely written half a line everywhere else, but here where the translation is not different they have written half a page. So much for the notes being there to explain how it was translated. They are no different to anybody else who wants to promote what they think the bible means. You don’t have to be a scholar to have your own opinion.
What the NET bible “scholars” are claiming is that because the Jews took up their stones, it means that Jesus must have been claiming to be God, because why else would they accuse him. Now, think back to all the times that the Jews falsely accused Jesus, and all the times that they misunderstood what he was saying, and the times that they looked for false witnesses against him. These were some nasty chaps, yet some people have chosen to believe that in this one rare case, the Jews somehow managed to understand Jesus, and were correctly accusing him of blasphemy. What are these “scholars” thinking!! These Jews lied if they had to. They were looking for every little opportunity to get Jesus. Do these Jews (false accusers, liars) sound like a reliable source of information? The “scholars” of the NET bible are using them as such. They use this act of accusing Jesus as the crucial evidence about what Jesus was saying. The NET bible questions why the Jews would accuse him of blasphemy unless he was claiming to be God… Ha, knowing the Jews, I can think of a few reasons. In fact they barely needed a reason. When Jesus heard what he was being accused of, he even corrected them, and was saying that if you can be called gods, how much more is it appropriate that the son of God could be called a god. The sad part about it is that these Jews and the “scholars” miss that Jesus was talking about his care for the sheep, not claiming to be God. Not that the Jews cared… they didn’t understand a lot of what he said… they just wanted to kill him.
32.Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33.The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34.Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35.If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36.Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
As you can see, he was telling them that they had been called “gods”, but he was questioning why it would be blasphemy calling himself of a lesser place as the Son of God. Jesus knew exactly what blasphemy was, so knowing what they were accusing him of, why would Jesus try to hide the fact and refute them, rather than just confirm that he was God, especially if that is what he was trying to tell them in verse 30? Why did he argue that it wasn’t blasphemy because they could be called gods, and he was only calling himself the Son of God; rather than arguing that it isn’t blasphemy because he IS God?
37.If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38.But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39.Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
These Jews weren’t giving up were they? They knew of the good works that Jesus was doing, but they didn’t recognize that these were the works of his father, and they didn’t make the connection that Jesus must be the son. It is often said about the ‘F&W’ that there are a lot of good people (they may not have been including me in that general statement ) so I wonder why they don’t see that there must be the holy spirit amongst these people. You can see some very stable and content people. You can see some strong and lasting marriages. You can see young people being trusted, and given great responsibilities in their jobs. You can see the absence of violence and hatred. This is not a product of the world we live in, and it is not a product of our human nature… there is something else at work. Look at statistics such as marriage success rate of the entire world population, and compare it to within the ‘F&W’.
No doubt there will be the odd 1 or 2% who are professing that are not as the 99% are, and that small percentage will be exaggerated and publicized by those who want to find fault, but just remember that ‘professing’ doesn’t mean ‘doing’. Professing doesn’t give you membership in anything. Some will be professing to be walking this way but aren’t, and you can’t attribute their actions to this way. A strange thing that happens sometimes is that people will see someone doing something bad and criticize, and they know that people of this way shouldn’t be doing that particular sin, but then they use the act of that person as proof that this way is wrong. So they first recognize that the act is not of this way, but then attribute it to being of this way. Weird. But that is false accusers for you.
Anyway, if you don’t believe anything else of this way, believe the works of those who walk therein, and see that the spirit of God is at work.
40.And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41.And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42.And many believed on him there.
Hooray!!
John 8
1.Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2.And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3.And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4.They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5.Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6.This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Here is Jesus pretending not to hear these people. Often on here it has been said that workers avoid questions. I hear comments like that and think that they are so much like Jesus. The questions are asked purely to accuse, just like what was happening here. Websites like TTT even have lists of “questions to ask workers”, which are barely different to the sort of question that was being asked of Jesus. Purely to accuse. Some find fault with the fact that the workers sometimes avoid these accusing questions, but even Jesus did it.
One thing to keep in mind is that the scribes and Pharisees were here to accuse. There were people that were trying whatever they could to catch Jesus out and be able to find fault with him. That is going to come up later, so just remember it
7.So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Jesus is being very vague here. Is he saying that she shouldn’t be stoned knowing that no one is without sin and because of the fact that he didn’t say, “Yes, she should be stoned”, or even that he didn’t stone her himself… or was he actually saying that she should be stoned? Jesus, please just answer the question . Some find fault because the pure and wise answer given by the workers wasn’t the answer they wanted. That is what happens of those that ask questions to try to accuse… they already know the answer the want, and when they don’t get that answer, about all they can do is accuse the worker of not answering the question, or being vague, or doublespeak.
8.And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Yep, Jesus really wasn’t interested in playing their games. I think he was deliberately uninterested despite that a lot of people around here would say that pretending to be uninterested is just so that he doesn’t have to answer the question.
9.And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10.When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11.She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Hmmm… I wonder do those who say that there is too much emphasis put on works/not sinning, ever read what Jesus said to this girl. “Go, and sin no more”. Yes, there is grace, but that is not to mean that we can continue in sin. Somehow though, people here find fault that the workers also talk about not sinning. There are plenty of verses that reference work that needs to be done. Don’t expect any time in the future to hear the workers saying, “Hey, you are saved anyway, so go out and sin… don’t worry about the laws of the country… murder a few people if you want… it won’t make a scrap of difference to your salvation”.
12.Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
There’s a verse for those who find fault in the F&W’s using Jesus as an example, and saying that it is not possible to follow Jesus’ example because of who he was.
13.The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14.Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15.Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16.And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17.It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18.I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19.Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20.These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21.Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22.Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23.And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24.I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25.Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26.I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27.They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28.Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29.And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
In response these people saying that Jesus’ record of himself wasn’t true because of the lack of the testimony of another man, Jesus went to reasonable lengths here to tell them that this wasn’t the case. It goes against anyone that says that Jesus is God. They are 2 separate beings which is why Jesus was telling them that he also had the witness of another... His father.
30.As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31.Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And this is what those that believe on him today should be doing… Continuing in his word. Yet, people keep asking for F&W doctrine, somehow thinking that it is necessary, to clear up what the F&W’s believe. What is wrong with continuing in the word of Jesus? That is the only doctrine we need. No need to add to the words of Jesus. No need to explain something any different to how it is in the bible. If there is something that you don’t understand, ask God for understanding. He is happy to teach.
32.And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
And those that continue in his words will be of the truth, because his word is true. Some think that because the F&W’s refer to “the truth” that it is an official name that we are taking and that it is then a lie to say that we don’t have a name. If someone is of the truth, that is no more their name than ‘mechanic’ is also their name if that’s what they also are.
33.They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34.Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35.And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36.If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
The Son has made us free. He is our mediator... mediating between us and God… so maybe he isn’t God. If he is God, then he wouldn’t and couldn’t be a mediator.
37.I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38.I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39.They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40.But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
This is a bit like those who try to say that we are of John Long/William Irvine etc. These early workers said that they weren’t starting anything new, but just continuing on with the faith once delivered to the saints, so how can we claim them to be our fathers, if we also claim to be following something they started, if they themselves were following something they didn’t start. If we are following them, then we should continue in the same way of truth that they were continuing in, just like the children of Abraham would do the works of Abraham. If we try to claim that those early workers founded something, then we are not following the same as what they were following because they were following something not started by themselves.
41.Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42.Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
So, Jesus isn’t God.
43.Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
I’m glad Jesus had the same trouble that I have. Some people have misunderstood me when I have used the simplest language and told the pure truth, and I guess it is because they don’t want to accept it, and don’t want to let go of their preconceived impression of the truth. When I have said something simple, it has been taken to mean something else (especially on VOT). Obviously, the workers also have this trouble with people mistaking their message, and Jesus also had this problem.
44.Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus sure got that right. Often the ‘2x2 church’ has been accused of lying, but when the accusers are questioned about it, so many different stories come out about what the ‘lie’ is, that it isn’t hard to tell where the lie really is. It is the accusers who lie.
45.And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Yep, I know what this is like. I got kicked off a forum once for telling the truth.
46.Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Haha, I wonder how many times I have practically asked the question “Which of you convinceth me of sin”? Often I have whined and moaned about people who just say that I am wrong, but then don’t bother to quote me or show me where I am wrong or why I am wrong. They will just say things like “you have brain damage” or “using doublespeak” etc, or on VOT they would just say “I’m not talking to you anymore” . If I am wrong, please convince me of my wrong (i.e. quote me and correct me)… or if I am not wrong, why do ye not believe me? Jesus knew very well they couldn’t convince him of sin, and I guess that is the very reason why people here resort to using slanderous comments to those who speak for the truth, rather than use constructive discussion.
47.He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
I wonder if this is the difference between two people that hear two completely different messages from the workers or when reading the bible. One example is those that hear the preachers talk about false prophets and false doctrine and the only way, and in their mind are hearing a message “laced with exclusivity”; yet I hear a message of warning being spoken directly from God, which is also well documented in the bible.
48.Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49.Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50.And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51.Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52.Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53.Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
We are starting to see how much the Jews know… They ‘knew’ Jesus had a devil. Just remember what they ‘knew’, and the quality of their knowledge about Jesus, because that could come up later too.
54.Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55.Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56.Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58.Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
This 58th verse is one that I have seen used as evidence that Jesus is God… simply because he said “I am”, with some people making reference to when God said “I Am that I Am”. Firstly, if you took everyone who said “I am” in the bible to be making a claim to be God, you will find quite a lot made that claim. Also, I doubt that Jesus was, randomly in the middle of this conversation, telling these Jews that he was God. One thing he said was that he keeps his Fathers sayings, so that would mean he isn’t God. Jesus was just trying to tell them that he was around before Abraham was. I don’t know enough about it, but maybe the translation came from a word that really meant “Before Abraham was, I was and still am”. I don’t know of a word that means “was and still am” in English, but if there was, maybe it would have been used here. Again, I don’t see why Jesus, in telling them about his father, would obscurely and randomly try to tell them he is his father, and especially in saying “If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me”
59.Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Those nasty chaps.
John 10
1.Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2.But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3.To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4.And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5.And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6.This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
So, here Jesus is talking about sheep. He does quite a bit of it in this chapter. Just using an analogy to explain things… but, they didn’t understand. I was often told on VOT that natural analogies fall far short and are full of holes… the nonVOT’s understood not. I wondered how they got on reading their bibles seeing the bible is full of these natural examples. Just like happened here, often my natural examples were not understood. I know how Jesus would have felt when things he spoke to them were not understood. The sad thing is though; to refute my examples on VOT the only way they could do it was to use very silly and false arguments. It really makes me wonder when people use blatantly false statements to argue against something. Maybe in some cases they don’t realize they are doing it, but I hope it triggers something to make them think, “If I need to make false comments to argue against something, then maybe I am on the false side of the argument”.
7.Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8.All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9.I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
…more sheep stuff.
10.The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11.I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12.But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13.The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
… sheep again.
14.I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15.As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16.And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
… sheep.
17.Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18.No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Jesus has been given this power from his father. There is an authority other than Jesus that gave him this commandment. Hmmm…
19.There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20.And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
I hear comments like this about the current generation of God’s servants. On this website included. That doesn’t mean that the claims are right though. The claims against Jesus certainly weren’t.
21.Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
Ah, yes, some will recognized the purity of the teaching of God’s servants even when others can not see it.
22.And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23.And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24.Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Hmmm… I was asked once on here about whether I was born in this way, and I gave a truthful answer, and then I got asked to tell plainly whether I was or not. It seems that unless the accusers get the answer they want, they are not willing to accept any other answer as a straight answer. Anything else is doublespeak to them because it is different to what they understood to be the truth.
25.Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26.But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
They weren’t his sheep and they were in a completely different frame of mind, and this meant that the things that Jesus was saying didn’t make sense. I think that is the trouble with a lot of the differences of opinion on these forums. Some people are thinking of carnal things and earthly organizations, and even talk as if such a ‘2x2 church’ exists. Others are talking about spiritual things and things pertaining to God’s church, and the carnal thinkers don’t understand the spiritual thinkers, and vice versa.
27.My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28.And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
… still talking about sheep.
30.I and my Father are one.
Hmmm… John 10:30… I’ve been waiting for this to come up. This is part of what some people use as evidence that Jesus is God, and the reason why I was looking at these chapters in the first place. For most of this chapter, Jesus has been talking about the sheep, and in verse 28 he talks about his protection of the sheep, and verse 29 he talks about his father’s protection of the sheep. In the 30 verse he is telling about how he and his father are ‘one’ in the way they care for and protect the sheep. It is the same as the oneness between a husband and a wife. I doesn’t mean that they are the same person, but that they are of the same mind and spirit, and there is agreement (check the similarities between v.28 and v.29). Jesus, and his Father, do not have their own ideas about things, or go their own ways, but they are exactly the same… they are one.
31.Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Those nasty chaps.
Not sure who here is familiar with the NET bible… The first I heard about it was on the VOT forum. I have a laugh at the NET Bible which claims that the translator’s notes are there for the purpose of explaining how and why the translation was derived, but in this case where the translation is barely different and means exactly the same thing in most other translations, they go to great lengths to explain this one little bit, but make no mention of how it was translated. The NET bible is a bit of a joke really. They have barely written half a line everywhere else, but here where the translation is not different they have written half a page. So much for the notes being there to explain how it was translated. They are no different to anybody else who wants to promote what they think the bible means. You don’t have to be a scholar to have your own opinion.
What the NET bible “scholars” are claiming is that because the Jews took up their stones, it means that Jesus must have been claiming to be God, because why else would they accuse him. Now, think back to all the times that the Jews falsely accused Jesus, and all the times that they misunderstood what he was saying, and the times that they looked for false witnesses against him. These were some nasty chaps, yet some people have chosen to believe that in this one rare case, the Jews somehow managed to understand Jesus, and were correctly accusing him of blasphemy. What are these “scholars” thinking!! These Jews lied if they had to. They were looking for every little opportunity to get Jesus. Do these Jews (false accusers, liars) sound like a reliable source of information? The “scholars” of the NET bible are using them as such. They use this act of accusing Jesus as the crucial evidence about what Jesus was saying. The NET bible questions why the Jews would accuse him of blasphemy unless he was claiming to be God… Ha, knowing the Jews, I can think of a few reasons. In fact they barely needed a reason. When Jesus heard what he was being accused of, he even corrected them, and was saying that if you can be called gods, how much more is it appropriate that the son of God could be called a god. The sad part about it is that these Jews and the “scholars” miss that Jesus was talking about his care for the sheep, not claiming to be God. Not that the Jews cared… they didn’t understand a lot of what he said… they just wanted to kill him.
32.Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33.The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34.Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35.If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36.Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
As you can see, he was telling them that they had been called “gods”, but he was questioning why it would be blasphemy calling himself of a lesser place as the Son of God. Jesus knew exactly what blasphemy was, so knowing what they were accusing him of, why would Jesus try to hide the fact and refute them, rather than just confirm that he was God, especially if that is what he was trying to tell them in verse 30? Why did he argue that it wasn’t blasphemy because they could be called gods, and he was only calling himself the Son of God; rather than arguing that it isn’t blasphemy because he IS God?
37.If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38.But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39.Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
These Jews weren’t giving up were they? They knew of the good works that Jesus was doing, but they didn’t recognize that these were the works of his father, and they didn’t make the connection that Jesus must be the son. It is often said about the ‘F&W’ that there are a lot of good people (they may not have been including me in that general statement ) so I wonder why they don’t see that there must be the holy spirit amongst these people. You can see some very stable and content people. You can see some strong and lasting marriages. You can see young people being trusted, and given great responsibilities in their jobs. You can see the absence of violence and hatred. This is not a product of the world we live in, and it is not a product of our human nature… there is something else at work. Look at statistics such as marriage success rate of the entire world population, and compare it to within the ‘F&W’.
No doubt there will be the odd 1 or 2% who are professing that are not as the 99% are, and that small percentage will be exaggerated and publicized by those who want to find fault, but just remember that ‘professing’ doesn’t mean ‘doing’. Professing doesn’t give you membership in anything. Some will be professing to be walking this way but aren’t, and you can’t attribute their actions to this way. A strange thing that happens sometimes is that people will see someone doing something bad and criticize, and they know that people of this way shouldn’t be doing that particular sin, but then they use the act of that person as proof that this way is wrong. So they first recognize that the act is not of this way, but then attribute it to being of this way. Weird. But that is false accusers for you.
Anyway, if you don’t believe anything else of this way, believe the works of those who walk therein, and see that the spirit of God is at work.
40.And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41.And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42.And many believed on him there.
Hooray!!