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Post by Gene on Jan 31, 2015 18:58:31 GMT -5
But Snow, the main point of the Jesus redeemer doctrine is not that we could be perfect on Earth as he was on Earth, but that he is our Redeemer to make up for what we could not, EVER be! If the objective is to be like Jesus during this life, we will ALL FAIL. Hence, the need for a redeemer. Well that's the thing, if Jesus was human, he didn't fail did he. So that means it's achievable by a human. Similar to Buddha teaching that nirvana is achievable by any who strive towards enlightenment. I guess if we need Jesus to be a God and atone for our sins, we get to take the lazy road and not do any of the work ourselves. If Jesus was human, he did the work himself to attain that level of divinity. For us to just expect to be saved because he sacrificed his life for us seems rather pointless really. And, if he was God, his sacrifice wasn't much anyway because after all he would have known he couldn't die. Also, the concept of sacrificing himself to atone us for himself seems awfully messed up. I'm certainly not qualified to argue that the doctrine of any religion is not awfully messed up!
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Post by faune on Feb 1, 2015 4:37:17 GMT -5
But Snow, the main point of the Jesus redeemer doctrine is not that we could be perfect on Earth as he was on Earth, but that he is our Redeemer to make up for what we could not, EVER be! If the objective is to be like Jesus during this life, we will ALL FAIL. Hence, the need for a redeemer. Well that's the thing, if Jesus was human, he didn't fail did he. So that means it's achievable by a human. Similar to Buddha teaching that nirvana is achievable by any who strive towards enlightenment. I guess if we need Jesus to be a God and atone for our sins, we get to take the lazy road and not do any of the work ourselves. If Jesus was human, he did the work himself to attain that level of divinity. For us to just expect to be saved because he sacrificed his life for us seems rather pointless really. And, if he was God, his sacrifice wasn't much anyway because after all he would have known he couldn't die. Also, the concept of sacrificing himself to atone us for himself seems awfully messed up. Snow ~ Actually Jesus, as God's Son, willingly sacrificed himself to atone for our sins, in order that his righteousness could be imputed to our account as believers in his message of grace and forgiveness. It surely reminds me of a familiar verse from John 15:13. I can remember this Bible verse being quoted towards the end of "The Tale of Two Cities" in which the hero in the story goes to the guillotine in his friend's place that he resembles to save his life during the French Revolution. The hero's last words were: "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known." Book III, Chapter 15, The Footsteps Die Out For Ever. biblehub.com/john/15-13.htm
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Post by snow on Feb 1, 2015 11:53:07 GMT -5
Faune, if Jesus is God like the Trinity doctrine believes, then he sacrificed himself to save us from being judged and denied, by himself. Why was a blood sacrifice necessary for the Trinity bunch? Is there some reason why the 3=1 God couldn't just love us enough to recognize that humans might make mistakes, but that's okay and love them enough to forgive them and let them into heaven at the end of their lives? Why is it necessary for this God to send all those who he created to hell? For eternity? What is the purpose of this? What statement is he trying to make? How would this help anyone? Even in life on earth when people are punished it's usually so they can change their ways. This isn't even an option in an eternity of hell. This is supposed to be an all loving, all merciful and all knowing God. Surely a being with those characteristics couldn't possibly condone an eternity of suffering for anything it created. The only conclusion I can come to is that he is not all loving, all merciful. He maybe isn't all knowing either because if he was he surely must have foreseen that there would only be a few that would make it into heaven and a lot of his creation he would have to doom to an eternity of suffering. But he still went ahead with his creation plan, knowing full well the suffering that would happen for that creation at the end of their lives? Does that sound like a loving being?
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 1, 2015 16:14:22 GMT -5
Faune, if Jesus is God like the Trinity doctrine believes, then he sacrificed himself to save us from being judged and denied, by himself. Why was a blood sacrifice necessary for the Trinity bunch? Is there some reason why the 3=1 God couldn't just love us enough to recognize that humans might make mistakes, but that's okay and love them enough to forgive them and let them into heaven at the end of their lives? Why is it necessary for this God to send all those who he created to hell? For eternity? What is the purpose of this? What statement is he trying to make? How would this help anyone? Even in life on earth when people are punished it's usually so they can change their ways. This isn't even an option in an eternity of hell. This is supposed to be an all loving, all merciful and all knowing God. Surely a being with those characteristics couldn't possibly condone an eternity of suffering for anything it created. The only conclusion I can come to is that he is not all loving, all merciful. He maybe isn't all knowing either because if he was he surely must have foreseen that there would only be a few that would make it into heaven and a lot of his creation he would have to doom to an eternity of suffering. But he still went ahead with his creation plan, knowing full well the suffering that would happen for that creation at the end of their lives? Does that sound like a loving being? Right, Snow.
Jesus as God sacrificing himself to save us from being judged and denied, by himself! doesn't make much sense, does it?
But then again, -None of it makes any sense.
The fact that it doesn't make any sense doesn't seem to make any difference to some people.
They seem to want to believe that they are "sinful," that they can't help being "sinful" & therefore need someone, a "savior" to bale them out.
It is a convenient way to ignore responsibility for their own mistakes.
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Post by snow on Feb 1, 2015 17:03:19 GMT -5
Faune, if Jesus is God like the Trinity doctrine believes, then he sacrificed himself to save us from being judged and denied, by himself. Why was a blood sacrifice necessary for the Trinity bunch? Is there some reason why the 3=1 God couldn't just love us enough to recognize that humans might make mistakes, but that's okay and love them enough to forgive them and let them into heaven at the end of their lives? Why is it necessary for this God to send all those who he created to hell? For eternity? What is the purpose of this? What statement is he trying to make? How would this help anyone? Even in life on earth when people are punished it's usually so they can change their ways. This isn't even an option in an eternity of hell. This is supposed to be an all loving, all merciful and all knowing God. Surely a being with those characteristics couldn't possibly condone an eternity of suffering for anything it created. The only conclusion I can come to is that he is not all loving, all merciful. He maybe isn't all knowing either because if he was he surely must have foreseen that there would only be a few that would make it into heaven and a lot of his creation he would have to doom to an eternity of suffering. But he still went ahead with his creation plan, knowing full well the suffering that would happen for that creation at the end of their lives? Does that sound like a loving being? Right, Snow.
Jesus as God sacrificing himself to save us from being judged and denied, by himself! doesn't make much sense, does it?
But then again, -None of it makes any sense.
The fact that it doesn't make any sense doesn't seem to make any difference to some people.
They seem to want to believe that they are "sinful," that they can't help being "sinful" & therefore need someone, a "savior" to bale them out.
It is a convenient way to ignore responsibility for their own mistakes.
What I don't understand is why anyone would believe someone else could sin and you can be blamed for it. Has humanity been ground down so much that they just automatically believe the worst about it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 19:09:15 GMT -5
IMO, standing for what you believe is is "the truth" is more important...no matter what others think, say or do to or about you. Cherie I hope all ex's have as high a regard for the workers who stand up for what they believe in, and like Gene have the utmost respect for those who act on their beliefs, no matter what others think, say or do to or about them. We need more of that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 19:33:05 GMT -5
Dmm, Snow, The only thing I can figure is that to simply say if you repent God will forgive is just too easy. It's just too simple. Not a lot of romance or story there. You've got to make it more complicated. More mysterious. More a wonder. You've got to add the complication of creating a lie and an injustice, calling it the truth, and when you realize you're thereby clean, call it as we sing, so strange it seems and wondrous.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 1, 2015 19:45:08 GMT -5
Dmm, Snow, The only thing I can figure is that to simply say if you repent God will forgive is just too easy. It's just too simple. Not a lot of romance or story there. You've got to make it more complicated. More mysterious. More a wonder. You've got to add the complication of creating a lie and an injustice, calling it the truth, and when you realize you're thereby clean, call it as we sing, so strange it seems and wondrous. Maybe you are right.
First of all, one has to believe in a GOD, a paranormal being who is all knowing, all powerful & been always been, which isn't simple.
Then by adding a lot of issues to the plot, it becomes real saga, which is a lot like Downton Abbey, -which has a new episode shortly, so nothing on TMB will keep me from seeing that!
See you later, alligator!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 20:18:50 GMT -5
What's interesting to me about the JS situation is that other workers have since preached what he was exed for, and are still in the work. One, in fact, is an overseer in the midwest. And earlier ...It's pretty sad to see an old man let go of his job after years of service like that. I think when my friend spoke with him, he was working as a janitor in a school. Hopefully he doesn't feel as sad as you perceive the situation is. But it seems to me that ex's feed on such "...so sad..."-ness's. I like the fact that those who are His only go from better to better. As regards the 1st comment, yes it is interesting. These things are just so commonplace among the religious, that I presume it is by intention by God. The interesting thing to me is that although sleep may be lost in tying to understand the mind and will of God, one need not loose sleep over offending or hurting others of His. If they are hurt, it is an opportunity to tell them the good news of a burden that is light and a peace that passes all understanding.
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Post by slowtosee on Feb 1, 2015 21:09:59 GMT -5
Do I understand you correctly, that you feel it is OK to hurt and offend others of His? Alvin
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Post by faune on Mar 16, 2015 12:58:30 GMT -5
The subject came up on this thread relating to a teaching which was "foreign" to the 2x2's which was being taught by the worker, Truitt Oyler, who was excommunicated in 1989 in Alaska. Some attested that he taught "Jesus is God" and the "doctrine of grace" in addition to this teaching on the "Impeccability of Christ," which must NOT have set well with the overseers who put him out of the work and forbade him to attend meetings afterwards. Also, a number of other folks were ex-communicated over standing up for this worker, who they highly respected. So, basically, Truitt Oyler, the Alaskan worker, probably had "three strikes" against him for teaching basic Christian doctrine which led to his demise? Anyway, here's an article on the "Impeccability of Christ" and what it means regarding Jesus' ability to sin or not along with arguments related to it Any comments? bible.org/seriespage/7-impeccability-christ
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Post by faune on Mar 16, 2015 13:11:21 GMT -5
This is what Brad Lewis shared on his 2x2 information site in the past regarding the putting out of the work of Truitt Oyler by Everett Swanson, who excommunicated him in 1989. This was regarding a conversation he had with this overseer in 1990 at convention. In addition to this concept that Jesus is God, it seems he was also teaching about the "doctrine of grace" and the "impeccability of Christ," which are not subjects normally taught within meetings by the workers and perhaps foreign to F&W's for most part? However, all three of these areas are part of Christian teaching today.
www.2x2ministry.org/states/alaska_letter_bob_ingram.php
"Truitt's Doctrine"
The doctrine Truitt was teaching is that "Jesus is God". In 1990 during a convention, I talked with Everett Swanson who told me that Truitt Oyler was teaching the outrageous idea that "Jesus was/is God". I also talked with him about this when he was a 2x2 worker in Montana when I lived in Belgrade, MT. Have you wondered if Jesus is God? or even thought about it? I know that the 2x2s don't believe in Jesus Christ as God, and believing in Jesus Christ as God is something they resist. Have you wondered if Jesus is God? If you think that Jesus might not be God, you have some serious issues. The name "Emanuel" is "God with us".
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Post by faune on Mar 16, 2015 13:37:14 GMT -5
This was what Cherie shared on Page 3 of this thread regarding a conversation of Paul Abernoth with Truitt Oyler regarding his beliefs. Post by CherieKropp on Jan 31, 2015 at 8:48am
"By Paul Abenroth: I spent many hours visiting with Truitt. Truitt did not claim that Jesus did not have a human nature. What he claimed is that Jesus had a human nature, but it was a perfect, sinless human nature, not subject to sin. It was a nature which could be tempted in all points, yet would not sin.
The doctrine in question concerned the nature of Jesus and his inability to sin. Jesus assumed a pre-fall human nature that was perfect and sinless just as Adam was perfect and sinless before the Fall. Given His person and nature as the Son of God, Jesus could not sin. In theology, this is called “The Impeccability of Christ.”
The reason this teaching confused the friends is because they'd never heard of it before. The workers for decades took up the motto of "church in the home and preacher without a home", disdained the study of theology, and as a result the friends did not learn what Christianity had taught for centuries on this and other points. Along comes Truitt and a couple others teaching it, and many thought it was some new off-beat idea, when in reality it was orthodox Christian teaching."
Doctrine of Impeccability.doc
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Post by faune on Mar 16, 2015 13:45:33 GMT -5
Nathan ~ You are one brave soul to speak that in meetings with workers present. Have you gotten any feedback yet since that Sunday morning meeting? Are you sure they understood what you were saying was regarding the Trinity concept in the Bible which they have disavowed for over 100 years within the 2x2's? Nathan shared...
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Post by blandie on Mar 16, 2015 19:19:28 GMT -5
Silence and thanks for your thots doesn't mean that any are agreeing with you and maybe you missed the teaching everyone else got and perhaps they are waiting for you to get the revelation and hear with ears for hearing:
John Porterfield (July 21, 1993 at Bakersfield, California funeral for Nelson Printz):
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Post by maryhig on Mar 19, 2015 11:30:31 GMT -5
?? 1 John 3:8-10: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ?? They believed Jesus is the Son of God, but not God the Son; that the head of Christ is God as in 1 Cor 11:3. Cherie ~ Thanks. That sounds more like it to me, too. Also, their concept of Jesus as our "Elder Brother," always gave me the impression they viewed Jesus more as a human being who somehow obtained to divinity at the end of his life due to the perfect life he lived without sinning. However, I never heard the Trinity or Godhead described as one God in three distinct persons ~ Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or Jesus referred to as "God in the flesh" or "God, the Son." The Trinity was always presented as "false teaching" by them from 1965 up until I left in 1995, some 30 years later. If that has changed any, I would be surprised myself? No doubt any worker who taught the Trinity as the Godhead would be swiftly chided by their overseer for even teaching such doctrine in gospel meeting and probably removed if they continued, since it doesn't go along with their acceptable Living Witness Doctrine, which put the workers at the center of your only hope of salvation?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203%3A8-10%3B%201%20Corinthians%2011%3A3&version=AMP;NIV;KJV 1 John 3:8-10 & 1 Corinthians 11:3
Well Jesus didn't think like that, he called his deciples brethren and they were human! Matthew 28:10 Then Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 19, 2015 12:02:48 GMT -5
Was this also applied to the friends and workers supposedly born (again) of God and therefore cannot sin? I heard that was also the teaching by JS and TO. ?? 1 John 3:8-10: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ?? They believed Jesus is the Son of God, but not God the Son; that the head of Christ is God as in 1 Cor 11:3. What? So you believe that people who believe in God can't sin? So what about the the lords prayer, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us? The only thing that can't sin is the spirit of God in the heart, and if your born of God you will have a stronger conscience. So you will find it harder to sin because your heart will be telling you it's wrong! But we still sin like everyone! Just hopefully not willfully! Jesus had the spirit of God in his heart, but he isn't God. What would be the point of God coming here and getting nailed to a cross by wicked men for our sins, can anyone tell me how murder forgives sins? When God himself says thou shalt not kill? God doesn't lie? Jesus did have to fulfill the scriptures, but God knew what Satan would do to him, and Jesus came willingly to show us how to live to bring us closer to God because the men of God were teaching wrong. He even called them white washed sepulchers full of dead men's bones! Not only did he come and live it but he put sin to death in his flesh by denying Satan and showing love even to those that crucified him! He showed love right to the end of his life and overcome Satan! What does it mean in revelation when he says "to those who overcome" over and over again? If we only have to believe and were all saved then his life is to no effect! He said those who endure to the end, the same shall be saved. Endure what? And overcome what? I've said before about Roman's 6 this explains how Jesus came to die. Can the people who believe Jesus came to get murdered and hung from a cross to save them please read this when you get a chance and tell me what it means? Also what does this mean? 1 Corinthians 11:26 as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. What death is this? And what does, take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow me daily mean? what cross? Deny what daily? And how are we following Jesus by doing these things? I've asked these questions before and no-one answers them?
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Post by emy on Mar 19, 2015 14:13:00 GMT -5
What? So you believe that people who believe in God can't sin? So what about the the lords prayer, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us? The only thing that can't sin is the spirit of God in the heart, and if your born of God you will have a stronger conscience. So you will find it harder to sin because your heart will be telling you it's wrong! But we still sin like everyone! Just hopefully not willfully! Jesus had the spirit of God in his heart, but he isn't God. What would be the point of God coming here and getting nailed to a cross by wicked men for our sins, can anyone tell me how murder forgives sins? When God himself says thou shalt not kill? God doesn't lie? Jesus did have to fulfill the scriptures, but God knew what Satan would do to him, and Jesus came willingly to show us how to live to bring us closer to God because the men of God were teaching wrong. He even called them white washed sepulchers full of dead men's bones! Not only did he come and live it but he put sin to death in his flesh by denying Satan and showing love even to those that crucified him! He showed love right to the end of his life and overcome Satan! What does it mean in revelation when he says "to those who overcome" over and over again? If we only have to believe and were all saved then his life is to no effect! He said those who endure to the end, the same shall be saved. Endure what? And overcome what? I've said before about Roman's 6 this explains how Jesus came to die. Can the people who believe Jesus came to get murdered and hung from a cross to save them please read this when you get a chance and tell me what it means? Also what does this mean? 1 Corinthians 11:26 as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. What death is this? I've asked these questions before and no-one answers them? Maryhig, please note 11:25 together with :26 -- :25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.Yes, I believe we are called to die to self, overcome, and endure as Jesus did but the new "law" (testament) couldn't go into effect until the testator (Jesus) died. Read more in Hebrews 9, especially from vs 13 on.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 19, 2015 19:21:06 GMT -5
What? So you believe that people who believe in God can't sin? So what about the the lords prayer, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us? The only thing that can't sin is the spirit of God in the heart, and if your born of God you will have a stronger conscience. So you will find it harder to sin because your heart will be telling you it's wrong! But we still sin like everyone! Just hopefully not willfully! Jesus had the spirit of God in his heart, but he isn't God. What would be the point of God coming here and getting nailed to a cross by wicked men for our sins, can anyone tell me how murder forgives sins? When God himself says thou shalt not kill? God doesn't lie? Jesus did have to fulfill the scriptures, but God knew what Satan would do to him, and Jesus came willingly to show us how to live to bring us closer to God because the men of God were teaching wrong. He even called them white washed sepulchers full of dead men's bones! Not only did he come and live it but he put sin to death in his flesh by denying Satan and showing love even to those that crucified him! He showed love right to the end of his life and overcome Satan! What does it mean in revelation when he says "to those who overcome" over and over again? If we only have to believe and were all saved then his life is to no effect! He said those who endure to the end, the same shall be saved. Endure what? And overcome what? I've said before about Roman's 6 this explains how Jesus came to die. Can the people who believe Jesus came to get murdered and hung from a cross to save them please read this when you get a chance and tell me what it means? Also what does this mean? 1 Corinthians 11:26 as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. What death is this? I've asked these questions before and no-one answers them? Maryhig, please note 11:25 together with :26 -- :25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.Yes, I believe we are called to die to self, overcome, and endure as Jesus did but the new "law" (testament) couldn't go into effect until the testator (Jesus) died. Read more in Hebrews 9, especially from vs 13 on. Yes Emy the new testament couldn't come into effect until he was dead, but that is death to self he was living the new testament he said the new testament is in his blood! and when he tells us to drink from the cup he's asking us to take in his life that he poured out for us and the bread which its his flesh. If we don't take in his life we can't live it out! That's what he means when he says to follow him we must take up our cross and deny ourselves. Because in following him we take up the cross he took up, and we deny ourselves as he did then we can show his life through us every day. The old man has to be out of the way, to put on the new man, this is the new birth, to be born again with Christ in the heart and changing us to a new being and to be an acceptable living sacrifice to God! By Jesus denying Satan in his heart and not sinning he could show God through his life and became the image of God because he was dead and God's spirit lived through him! And if we do this then we show Christ in our lives by putting on his life. Because it's only through him we are saved. And without him coming into our hearts and helping us fight Satan we've got no hope because we are weak without him! Because he is the only one who has overcome the world. So he can help us overcome too. That's what I believe from the bottom of my heart. I breaks my heart when the crucifixion is on the TV I can't watch it, or when I read about it in the Bible it upsets me! I see no good in it at all, and I can't glorify it. I feel like the thief on the cross. I have sinned so I deserve to die (death to self) but Jesus has done nothing wrong and deserves to live. And as long as I'm willing he can live in my heart. But we all have a choice to believe in what we want to. This is what I choose to believe in. Everyone else must choose what they believe in. I'm not here to argue with people about it though. We all have our choices to make.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 20, 2015 6:00:10 GMT -5
Yes Emy the new testament couldn't come into effect until he was dead, but that is death to self he was living the new testament he said the new testament is in his blood! and when he tells us to drink from the cup he's asking us to take in his life that he poured out for us and the bread which its his flesh. If we don't take in his life we can't live it out! That's what he means when he says to follow him we must take up our cross and deny ourselves. Because in following him we take up the cross he took up, and we deny ourselves as he did then we can show his life through us every day. The old man has to be out of the way, to put on the new man, this is the new birth, to be born again with Christ in the heart and changing us to a new being and to be an acceptable living sacrifice to God! By Jesus denying Satan in his heart and not sinning he could show God through his life and became the image of God because he was dead and God's spirit lived through him! And if we do this then we show Christ in our lives by putting on his life. Because it's only through him we are saved. And without him coming into our hearts and helping us fight Satan we've got no hope because we are weak without him! Because he is the only one who has overcome the world. So he can help us overcome too. That's what I believe from the bottom of my heart. I breaks my heart when the crucifixion is on the TV I can't watch it, or when I read about it in the Bible it upsets me! I see no good in it at all, and I can't glorify it. I feel like the thief on the cross. I have sinned so I deserve to die (death to self) but Jesus has done nothing wrong and deserves to live. And as long as I'm willing he can live in my heart. But we all have a choice to believe in what we want to. This is what I choose to believe in. Everyone else must choose what they believe in. I'm not here to argue with people about it though. We all have our choices to make. Maryhig - I'm definitely not into Crucifixion re-enactments but the Scriptures are clear that it's His precious blood that washes us clean. His death was necessary - otherwise He couldn't defeat death and rise. I take it that this is what you mean by "take in his life that he poured out for us"? Ross the death he defeated is Satan, Satan is death. And you can't say you're of God and then say you can't endure and overcome. Because Jesus said have no fear I have overcome the world. With faith anything is possible in God. Without faith and without Christ we have no chance! If we have faith then we believe, if we believe we do his will, if we do his will we let him in to our hearts if we let him in we overcome because the more he is in our hearts the more the worldly sins are cast out and we become stronger in God! Jesus came by water and blood, this is the word and life. He spoke the word and he lived it out! The Bible is full of deeper meanings, that's why Jesus say "he has ears to hear let him hear!" 1 John 5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world,even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
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Post by snow on Mar 20, 2015 11:00:02 GMT -5
If the best Yahweh can do is a blood sacrifice, then he is in the old Gods realm where blood sacrifices are important for forgiveness. That's rather barbaric and unnecessary just saying. People really don't look very clearly at the crucifixion. It was done by the Romans for a crime they considered to be treason. I don't believe Jesus ever expected to be crucified. Nor did his disciples and so the story needed to be made up to make it look like a plan and spin it as necessary. But it's no different from any of the old Gods stories of where blood sacrifices are required to save stuff. The Mayans, the Incas, and the list is a long one all believed in blood sacrifices.
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Post by snow on Mar 20, 2015 12:00:58 GMT -5
If the best Yahweh can do is a blood sacrifice, then he is in the old Gods realm where blood sacrifices are important for forgiveness. That's rather barbaric and unnecessary just saying. People really don't look very clearly at the crucifixion. It was done by the Romans for a crime they considered to be treason. I don't believe Jesus ever expected to be crucified. Nor did his disciples and so the story needed to be made up to make it look like a plan and spin it as necessary. But it's no different from any of the old Gods stories of where blood sacrifices are required to save stuff. The Mayans, the Incas, and the list is a long one all believed in blood sacrifices. Peter wrote I Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Romans 5:17-19 For if by one man/Adam's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Yahweh plan was shedding of blood from ONE life/Jesus to SAVE ALL humanity from their sins.... Satan copied God plans for his followers to use millions/billions human lives as sacrifices to KILL and destroy lives to please him.Don't believe any of that stuff Nathan, I just don't. It's barbaric blood sacrifice that was common in ancient religions. Nothing new there.
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Post by xna on Mar 20, 2015 12:02:03 GMT -5
If the best Yahweh can do is a blood sacrifice, then he is in the old Gods realm where blood sacrifices are important for forgiveness. That's rather barbaric and unnecessary just saying. People really don't look very clearly at the crucifixion. It was done by the Romans for a crime they considered to be treason. I don't believe Jesus ever expected to be crucified. Nor did his disciples and so the story needed to be made up to make it look like a plan and spin it as necessary. But it's no different from any of the old Gods stories of where blood sacrifices are required to save stuff. The Mayans, the Incas, and the list is a long one all believed in blood sacrifices. Peter wrote I Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Romans 5:17-19 For if by one man/Adam's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Yahweh plan was shedding of blood from ONE life/Jesus to SAVE ALL humanity from their sins.... Satan copied God plans for his followers to use millions/billions human lives as sacrifices to KILL and destroy lives to please him.In 1099 when Crusaders captured Jerusalem after a long siege, they ritually slaughtered all the Moslems and Jews who had defended the city, so the the city was said to be 'knee-deep in blood'. rosarubicondior.blogspot.com/2012/02/religion-and-history-of-blood-sacrifice.html
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Post by xna on Mar 20, 2015 13:22:11 GMT -5
The RCC crusaders wasn't the WILL or Plan of God but over zealous religious men Power in Rome, Vatican. It was the work of the Devil the Crusaders genocide against humanity during the dark ages.As far as I can see there are similarities & difference between the RCC and 2x2 Similarities:1. The RCC think they have the one right way to heaven 2. The 2x2 think they have the one right way to heaven Differences1. RCC has made apologies for the past sins of the church, and it’s members
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Post by maryhig on Mar 20, 2015 13:50:56 GMT -5
Don't believe any of that stuff Nathan, I just don't. It's barbaric blood sacrifice that was common in ancient religions. Nothing new there. Let the scriptures and the apostles writings explaining God's plans. If you want your sins to be forgiven then you must accept His terms, will and way. You don't believe in God then His terms don't mean anything to you but for us believers we accept and greatful for our Lord God Savior Jesus who died and shed His own precious blood for our sins.I'm a believer and I don't believe that at all! It's barbaric! Even Jesus himself said in John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? Even Jesus himself was saying by killing him they are going against Gods law. Even the thief on the cross saw it was wrong to kill Jesus and he was saved, not the thief who was going on about being saved! It was barbaric, cruel and wrong to murder the son of God, there's nothing good or holy in it at all. It's Satan's work at the hands of Satan's people. Jesus overcame by not sinning and showing love right to the end of his life. This is How he put satan to death and won!
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Post by xna on Mar 20, 2015 14:11:08 GMT -5
As far as I can see there are similarities & difference between the RCC and 2x2 Similarities:1. The RCC think they have the one right way to heaven 2. The 2x2 think they have the one right way to heaven. 2x2 teaches Jesus is the ONLY WAY to heaven/God the Father. The workers and the friends are ONLY sign posts from earth to heaven, they point Christ is the final destination.When we professed we drove about an hour each way to meetings twice a week. Along the way we passed many churches which taught "Jesus is the ONLY WAY to heaven/God the Father". The workers told me the chruchs we past and came out of were false churches, and the devil was leading them. I told my parents they had been taking me all my life to a church run by the devil and now I had been shown the one true way. Sure enough I got a sign like in the bible; a division which lasted a lifetime. As far as I can tell most denominations think they have found the way and the other denominations are going on the wrong way. I know a lot has changed since I professed but I suspect workers today don’t say; any church that says "Jesus is the ONLY WAY to heaven/God the Father" is good to go to.
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Post by xna on Mar 20, 2015 14:15:25 GMT -5
I wish the senior/overseers workers had known the horrible traumatic of body and minds CSA have caused on the victims and should have the gov't authority handle these cases. I had tried to warn and educate the workers and the friends about CSA on my 2x2 message board 15 yrs ago. Sunlight is a great disinfectant. Thanks for speaking up about CSA abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:34:24 GMT -5
Sunlight is a great disinfectant. Thanks for speaking up about CSA abuse. Thanks, for your kind words. Most of the workers and friends are too kind, good hearted people and they can't believe there are such and such workers and friends among us commit such a horrific CSA crime. We're still sinners and if we don't allow Christ continue to reign in our hearts then Satan's spirit will take over. Remember Judas! How Satan entered his heart to betray Jesus because he loved money. The Love of money is the roots of all evil.Was the betrayal of Jesus by Judas and the crucifixion of Jesus pre-planned by God?
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